Control. What is it?

[Geishawhelk]

There is an issue being discussed in another thread, about a relationship that has gone disastrously wrong. Everything there is haywire.

I brought up the issue that I perceived the OP as having 'Control' issues.

I have a history in psychology and counselling, so I just thought I would put what I learnt from this.

 

Please understand I am not putting myself forward as an authority in saying that. It's open to discussion (that's what the forum/thread is all about, isn't it?) but I'm just illustrating my background. There are others, I am certain just as qualified, if not more so, to post and give their considered opinions. I would welcome this, because any information is valuable and educational. so I hope it will give fruit to some good exchanges and fascinating dialogue.

 

as I learnt it, things go roughly like this:

 

We are all products of our background and origins. We are all influenced in one way or another, by the people who brought us up.

 

This can go three ways:

We see neither good nor bad in it, and decide that things were pretty much on an even keel, fairly so-so....

 

We detest one or both of our parents. We had issues with them, and still feel a great deal of animosity towards them, and are veering so far away from our upbringing, so as to deny their existence....

 

We adore our parents. We had a wonderful childhood, we idolise them even now, they are our very best friends and we count on them for moral, spiritual, and social support. Jeez, these guys are something else again - !!

 

More often than not, it's usually more of the first. And maybe a little bit of the other two, but usually, to one degree or the other, it's the first option.

 

So we learn to think in ways that are influenced by our upbringing. We either 'copy' and continue what we learnt, or we go so far the other way, that we follow extremes in the opposite direction....Just to illustrate, "our dad beat our mom up", so:

(If we're male) we're a bit 'free' with our hands, or (if we're female) we tend to seek out and find a man who's free with his hands....! We gravitate towards the familiar....

 

Either that, or (if we're a man) we find a wife who's strong, and becomes dominant and overbearing, a scold, or (if we're a woman) we find a man who's weaker than we are, compliant and will be a total wuss.... (we gravitate towards the opposite trend.....)

 

These are just extreme examples, I'm trying to simply illustrate...

 

Whilst we'e growing up, we are also subject to the whims, commands and instructions of people older than us. I'm not talking cruelty, or perverse behaviour here, in any way. I'm just talking, at the moment, of simple figures of authority. This is running on a mean-level emotional stasis. I don't want to hit on abuse, cruelty or anything else like that, it's just to illustrate - again....! We are under their care and supervision, and we're expected to do as they say. Otherwise there are consequences. this could be parents, G/parents, brothers/sisters, uncles/aunts, neighbours, parents of friends, teachers, pastors or priests... you name it. in whatever way, these other people got us to do as they wanted.

Finally - Finally! we enter into a relationship! We find that special someone who would go to the ends of the earth and back for us! They love us, completely, and would do anything to make us happy! They live for us, they want to do whatever pleases us, and they want to enter into a long-lasting, loving, nourishing relationship! We finally find someone who would do anything for us, so we're thrilled to discover that they will do what it takes to put a smile on our face! Great! Finally, someone for us! Just for us! They want to keep us happy!

 

Trouble is, what we don't realise is....

They have the same agenda.

 

So, because they are our equal in the raltionship, because they don't hold any recognisable authority over us, as the others I mentioned, did, and because they love us, we can make demands upon their emotional attachment, and express our desires to be top dog.

But so can they. And they do.

 

And that is how "control" issues are born.

 

there are countless thousands and oodles of different 'plays' on this, depending on age, background, sexual, religious, moral attitudes... everyone is different, and everyone comes with their own baggage. Everyone had differnt degrees of desire to control, and be listened to... and even the most timid, most self-effacing "victim-like" person can actually through submissive and passive behaviour, actually play on the emotions of the other person, and manipulate a situation.... I'm not saying it's deliberate or conscious, but an awful lot of behaviour patterns are controlling.

 

For example: my ex-mother-in-law was always sitting in the background, always saying, "It's ok, I'll do what everyone else wants, I don't want to spoil anyone's fun, I'll be quite all right on my own, you go off and enjoy yourselves!"

Result?

They would cancel the event, or feel bad about going, because of her martyr-like ways.

She didn't mean it, it wasn't consious. But it bloodywell worked a treat! Accuse her of being manipulative and exerting control, and she would have dnied it until she was blue in the face - but trust me, she did it. And it worked, virtually every time. And when it didn't, she was always moody for a day or two.....

 

so 'Control' is a word that covers a multitude of things, of patterns of behaviour. But in one way or another, what we'd all like to do, is to be, with the other person's compliance or consent, the one who is in 'control' of the relationship.

You've heard of 'give and take'?

You've heard of situations where one gives, and the other takes?

It happens a lot on this forum, doesn't it?

That's control, isn't it?

 

Comments, anyone?

Edited January 13, 2008 by Geishawhelk

[johan]

It's all pretty abstract, what you said. So it's hard to put into one's own context. I've been a controlling type of person in the past. I'm sure I still am, although I think I've learned some things. And I've been with controlling types. I've witnessed people in relationships with other controlling types.

 

There are people who are actively controlling and passively controlling. The active types are openly critical and make it clear what they want. The passive types don't make it clear what they want, but either manipulate situations to their benefit or make it clear after the fact that they didn't get what they wanted.

 

It's a dilemma sometimes. People want to be in control, because that provides security. Women seek men who are "in control", but healthy women don't look for controlling men. The line is a little blurry sometimes.

 

My ex controlled me quite a bit. She was a bit paranoid that I wasn't 100% hers, and she expressed her fears openly, with the result that I was on eggshells quite a bit. I think she was reassured only when I got angry enough to display considerable passion. Otherwise, she couldn't be sure. She also controlled her life in passive ways. For example, no matter what time we agreed to be somewhere, no matter how important it was, she was late. She couldn't be on time. And the displeasure of others was not a great concern to her.

 

I don't think I controlled her much, because the balance was usually in her favor.

 

With previous girlfriends, who were more passive, I crossed the line from "in control" to "controlling" quite a bit. I was immature and don't think I'd be that way again.

 

A friend of mine is highly critical of his women and their ambition and drive. This only comes out after he has them living with him. I can't stand how he acts toward them. In addition, his passive controlling behavior is to flirt with other women a lot and to bring up sex a lot when out with friends. He portrays it as all in fun, but it becomes pretty demeaning to his women. I would never treat a woman the way he treats his.

 

But I'm sure there are things I do that make it difficult to be with me. There must be some good explanation for the fact that my life is the way it is. The one thing I'm pretty sure about is that having a controlling personality is a great way to make sure that you never have good relationships.

[Geishawhelk]

Yes, I'm sorry my post was so abstract and general as to really just skim the surface of what I was trying to illustrate. it's hard to be specific, but I was attempting to lay the foundation and background of how easy it is to generate control issues.

but you candour, honesty and openness about your own 'agendas' and those of your partners, illustrates two things:

one, that control is very subtle and practised in different ways. And sometimes we control, in a relationship, but find that in another, we're the controlled one...

And two, it's easy to recognise it in others; even though they may not be directly controlling their partner, who may not even be present at the time their controlling behaviour manifests.

 

but do you see what I mean then, when I say that our behaviour towards our partners is founded on 'control' - the desire to be accepted as top dog in the other person's life, because we believe it's the key to our being happy?

 

Thanks for responding, I appreciate it... I noticed at the time of posting this, that I'd had 13 views and only one reply!!

 

Hope we get more....!

[Nemo]

Hope we get more....!

You could have kept that to yourself. I almost got sucked in.

 

If the sex is good enough in a relationship, then one tends to forget about all the other stuff. Well, maybe not.

 

Anyway, one thing might be the amount of "alone time" that each person feels they need. Some people can't handle being alone - they panic. Some people like being alone - but not perpetually. An aspect of "control" could be for time in a relationship. How much time spent together will keep both people happy? Too little, and somebody is feeling distant. Too much, and somebody is feeling smothered. Too little, and you're accused of not caring. Too much, and you're described as clingy.

 

Or maybe only the "big" things matter, and the rest is fluff.

[Geishawhelk]

No in actual fact the little things are what matter most... look at it this way... the big things are the bricks of the marriage...but the small things are the mortar. It doesn't matter how strong or sturdy the big things are, if the little things show signs of cracking and crumbling, then in turn, the big things start collapsing....

 

If you think the little things don't matter all that much, try being in the same room as a mosquito....!!

[PerfectXPretty]

I've wrote in another thread before about how he hasnt been very nice to me expalining how he wouldnt even come to a family party.. like he NEVER does... and how something had happened to a family member & him not wanting to be there for me... I havnt talked to him in about a week.. he 'needs space' thats what i got across from him yesterday. However i've talked to his mom mom during the week to figure out what was up, only because i put out money to go to flyers game & its been almost a week at that point to where he hasnt talked to me.. i swear he has anger issues.. so anyways if you're someone who's been following that thread i'm sure you'll understand what i'm talking about.. now to to get to the point of a control issue.. i'm thinking that what he's said to me is a bit controlling.

 

" Ok first off .. stop going to my mom mom. I dont go to your family or friends about anything so dont go to mine. Second thing we have plans that are paid for and we are still going. Third thing is i need space right now and i'm not contacting you til those plans come "

 

Funny huh because with our "relationship" we were down to only about 3 days of hanging out & now he 'needs space' i just thought what he had to said to me sounded controlling so i thougth i'd bring it into this thread.

[Storyrider]

You could have kept that to yourself. I almost got sucked in.

 

If the sex is good enough in a relationship, then one tends to forget about all the other stuff. Well, maybe not.

 

Anyway, one thing might be the amount of "alone time" that each person feels they need. Some people can't handle being alone - they panic. Some people like being alone - but not perpetually. An aspect of "control" could be for time in a relationship. How much time spent together will keep both people happy? Too little, and somebody is feeling distant. Too much, and somebody is feeling smothered. Too little, and you're accused of not caring. Too much, and you're described as clingy.

 

Or maybe only the "big" things matter, and the rest is fluff.

 

Or maybe there is a third variable (or fifth, I've lost count) that has to do with the dynamic between the two people.

 

Let me put it this way, but you can't take the analogy too literally. If you're someone who needs a lot of alone time, why doesn't it bother you to be alone with your dog? (Now, nobody is really the dog in this analogy, remember. Don't take it too literally.) But really, why? Isn't it because your dog isn't always piping up to remind you to pick up the stuff from the dry cleaners tomorrow, or looking at you askance while you watch five hours straight of TV, or whistling Sousa marches while vacuuming under your feet. Or, perhaps most of all, you don't feel the pressure of silent expectations from your dog.

 

So maybe if you felt like the other person was doing their own thing without regard to you or that the dynamic together was low-stress, whatever that means to you, then the need for alone time would not be so acute.

[Nemo]

Or, perhaps most of all, you don't feel the pressure of silent expectations from your dog.

:lmao:

 

Oh, yes. You have nailed it. Silent, but deadly.

 

Having said that, anything that will get one off their own arse can't be altogether a bad thing.

So maybe if you felt like the other person was doing their own thing without regard to you or that the dynamic together was low-stress, whatever that means to you, then the need for alone time would not be so acute.

I think you're right. I guess the first thing is whether you can just "be yourself" around the other person. That's pretty basic. And the next thing is as you describe - not feeling like you are (always) needed for primary "entertainment."

 

Excellent.

[Nemo]

If you think the little things don't matter all that much, try being in the same room as a mosquito....!!

I actually prefer the company of living things which suck the smaller (relatively speaking) amounts of blood.

[michaelk]

Hi Geisha,

 

Perhaps you should have posted a link to this thread on the other one that started it. You might have had more folks follow you over.

 

After reading what you wrote, I understand that in this context you are referring to people trying to get what they want as 'control'. Everyone has wants, whether they're in a relationship or not, and everyone tries to fulfill those wants. Whether it's maneuvering to get the plum assignments at work, getting your friends hyped up about something you want to do, or asking your mate to play out some fantasy in bed, everyone exerts what control they can in every conceivable situation. It's human nature.

 

My question is: how does this shed light on the problems people bring here to LS? (I'm not doubtful that it does. I'd simply like to know how.)

 

MK

[Geishawhelk]

Hi Geisha,

 

Perhaps you should have posted a link to this thread on the other one that started it. You might have had more folks follow you over.

 

I thought of doing that, but I didn't want it to look too controlling...!! :D

 

J/K... You're right of course... I did post I was creating this thread, but then it didn't occur to me!! *doofus!!*

 

After reading what you wrote, I understand that in this context you are referring to people trying to get what they want as 'control'. Everyone has wants, whether they're in a relationship or not, and everyone tries to fulfill those wants. Whether it's maneuvering to get the plum assignments at work, getting your friends hyped up about something you want to do, or asking your mate to play out some fantasy in bed, everyone exerts what control they can in every conceivable situation. It's human nature.

 

My question is: how does this shed light on the problems people bring here to LS? (I'm not doubtful that it does. I'd simply like to know how.)

 

MK

 

I hate to bring it 'down' to a level of, well, business, almost, but look upon a relationship as an emotional contract. I mean, let's face it, if you stand infront of a priest/pastor/minister, you make a series of promises... so they're assurances, commitments.. you are enteing into a bargain with your spouse that you promise to do certain things for one another.... but many people don't get married, or at least don't look at a marriage as either being on the cards, or even conceivable, if the relationship is a new one. But without getting too heavy, what people omit to consider when they start going out with someone, is that there is still an element of a 'contract' there... If you meet someone and hit it off with them, you unconsciously decide, "ok, this person is hot, I like them, there's a chemistry there - I'm not going to casually see someone else at the same time, I'll go out with them, enjoy their company and be their significant other, because it looks as if this may be something special!"

Obviously people don't go through this scenario, but you get the gist.

the difficulties arise when we don't progress fromEITHER the 'what's in it for me?' to the 'What's in it for them?' OR VICE VERSA.... depending on the 'quality' or perception of your own commitment, there is a possibility that, unless communication is clear and honest, something somewhere is going to tip the balance. In any relationship (even between the two sides of our own mind/body....!) one side is 'stronger' than the other. It's a law of Nature, if you will. In seeking happiness and fulfilment, we're seeking specific qualities in an individual. We might be seeking someone who will be at our beck and call, respond to our every whim and make us happy. But somethimes, we want a man who is handsome, strong and virile, and who can afford us protection and security, or we want a woman who is quick-witted, funny, intelligent and desirable.... Don't leap down my throat everyone...I'm not stereotyping, I'm just illustrating!!

So we'd like a guy who can take control, or we'd like a woman who oozes independence.... But, after a while, the dynamics can alter....We find either that he's too dominating and protecive and we can't breathe... or maybe that she's just a little too indepndent, outgoing and dazzling... we feel either threatened and insecure, or outshone and sidelined.... and here the imbalances become extremely evident.

 

People look at the superficial problem...

"My G/F went out the other evening, and she told me she was going out with a bunch of her work-mates, but I discovered that she ended up having dinner with another male colleague...."

 

On the surface, the guy might be pissedoff that she had dinner with another guy who she works with, but in fact, this is about validation, honesty, independence and self-esteem.... people see the immediate issue, and threads then laboriously work themselves to trying to locate the real issue further down the line.

 

Nobody ever starts a thread with: "I think issues of security have arisen for me, because I don't feel my G/F has validated my importance in her life.... She has failed to see how important honesty is to me, and maybe I didn't see how independent she is, and i failed to perceive her free-spirited attitude could be a threat to my self-esteem...."

It's not natural! But that's actually what it all is!

 

So we see the trite stuff (the Mortar...).. and by the time we get to the real nitty-gitty, (the bricks) it's a week down the line, other threads have been posted, and there's so much advice, opinion and views flying around, that nobody knows what's going on any more.

The Trick is to see the 'problem' for what it really is... and to see the issues manifesting, and see what's at stake....

 

Does this make any sense?

[Leoni]

We adore our parents. We had a wonderful childhood, we idolise them even now, they are our very best friends and we count on them for moral, spiritual, and social support. Jeez, these guys are something else again - !!

Be nice. This was my childhood, although I wouldn't say they are my very best friends. They're my parents, who will always be authority and support figures to an extent, until later in life when age reverses the roles.

 

They are strong people and so are my siblings. With this environment in mind, you couldn't be passive, weak, timid or shy.

 

So...here I am, a fairly strong person who has been spoiled to an extent, the baby of the family. I can be controlling which is why my close friends are strong individuals. Anyone weaker couldn't peel me back when needed or take being peeled back. Most often, because it's coming from the heart, we tend to laugh it off and/or let it go.

 

Having said that, it's also how it's handled. If it's handled in a passive manner or I feel I'm backed into a corner, I'll come out, fangs bared, claws fully extended.

 

I do catch myself being controlling and pull it back or sometimes when I'm being assertive, the more sensitive individuals see it as controlling behaviour. It's all a matter of degrees and how threatened the individual feels.

 

In a relationship situation, isn't it once again, a matter of degrees and what are non-negotiables per individual? If someone has a floor length scroll of non-negotiables, should they not look for someone who can easily mesh with this type of personality? Some individuals, in order to be safe, women more than men, need to be controlled. Some individuals, like myself, balk at most forms of control, particularly and especially passive control.

 

Isn't it more important that the individuals learn how to clearly communicate their non-negotiables, ensuring that these requirements are reasonable and learn to listen properly?

 

I could never respect a partner that I controlled or needed to control me. Is there no way to pass the lead torch back and forth?

[Geishawhelk]

In a relationship situation, isn't it once again, a matter of degrees and what are non-negotiables per individual?

 

Well yes, of course. this is why the examples and illustrations in this thread are so general... this thread was created to discuss 'Control' and what it is, but given that every single relationship, and every single relationship we have, are so different, it's impossible to create specific and individual scenarios for each and every one....

And to my mind, there is very little, in a relationship that we would like to consider 'equal' that falls under the bracket of 'non-negotiable'. Other than matters that concern or threaten our personal Dignity, safety or well-being, everything should be discussed and compromises reached.

 

If someone has a floor length scroll of non-negotiables, should they not look for someone who can easily mesh with this type of personality?

That's the point. First of all, find yourself that person! Secondly, negotiate with their floor-length list of different negotiables, too...!

 

Some individuals, in order to be safe, women more than men, need to be controlled. Some individuals, like myself, balk at most forms of control, particularly and especially passive control.

Well, hopefully this gets sorted out fairly early on in the relationship, although I have come across both men and women who have told me 'Once we got married, everything just seemed to change'.... But more often than not, these issues do surface. And this is where analysis of origin, and negotiation, and compromise come in to play. It's not about the surface crap. It's what it does in-depth that counts.

 

Isn't it more important that the individuals learn how to clearly communicate their non-negotiables, ensuring that these requirements are reasonable and learn to listen properly?

Yes, definitely....

Non negotiable... I already gave my considered view of what is a non-negotiable... Would you agree wih them, or do you have other issues in mind? What, to your standards, for you, is 'non-negotiable' where you are concerned?

 

I could never respect a partner that I controlled or needed to control me. Is there no way to pass the lead torch back and forth?

 

Yes.

And No.

 

Like it or not, there are always, and always will be control issues in a relationship, to one extent or another. And it is about first of all recognising it, acknowledging it, admitting it and compromising. but Control always exists within a relationship.

 

"I'd like to leave the party by 11:30 because when my partner gets too tipsy, he becomes more difficult to manage, and I have to drive him home, get him to bed, and make sue he gets up in the morning to get to work on time!"

 

Am I controlling him in wanting to leave early, or is he controlling me because it's up to me to get his fattass out of bed?

Both.

And neither.

It's control AND compromise.

 

We'll leave on time, he won't therefore get too tipsy. But in the morning (in return, through tacit compromise) I'll make the tea and get him up and awake...

 

Again, this is just a simplistic example, and other factors might come into play....( My resentment... 'He always bloody does this!' His resentment..'Why can't I just let my hair down for once....?')

 

And so it keeps playing.. always there... in one way or another....

 

Can you see it...?

Edited January 14, 2008 by Geishawhelk

[Leoni]

And to my mind, there is very little, in a relationship that we would like to consider 'equal' that falls under the bracket of 'non-negotiable'. Other than matters that concern or threaten our personal Dignity, safety or well-being, everything should be discussed and compromises reached.

These are similar to yours; like, trust, respect, love, honesty, integrity and reliability.

 

Well, hopefully this gets sorted out fairly early on in the relationship, although I have come across both men and women who have told me 'Once we got married, everything just seemed to change'.... But more often than not, these issues do surface. And this is where analysis of origin, and negotiation, and compromise come in to play. It's not about the surface crap. It's what it does in-depth that counts.

Quoted for truth.

 

Anyone naive enough to believe that marriage doesn't magnify difficulties, needs a bit more maturity and experience, before entering into a marriage.

 

Yes, definitely....

Non negotiable... I already gave my considered view of what is a non-negotiable... Would you agree wih them, or do you have other issues in mind? What, to your standards, for you, is 'non-negotiable' where you are concerned?

See above response.

 

Yes.

And No.

 

Like it or not, there are always, and always will be control issues in a relationship, to one extent or another. And it is about first of all recognising it, acknowledging it, admitting it and compromising. but Control always exists within a relationship.

 

"I'd like to leave the party by 11:30 because when my partner gets too tipsy, he becomes more difficult to manage, and I have to drive him home, get him to bed, and make sue he gets up in the morning to get to work on time!"

 

Am I controlling him in wanting to leave early, or is he controlling me because it's up to me to get his fattass out of bed?

Both.

And neither.

It's control AND compromise.

 

We'll leave on time, he won't therefore get too tipsy. But in the morning (in return, through tacit compromise) I'll make the tea and get him up and awake...

 

Again, this is just a simplistic example, and other factors might come into play....( My resentment... 'He always bloody does this!' His resentment..'Why can't I just let my hair down for once....?')

 

And so it keeps playing.. always there... in one way or another....

 

Can you see it...?

Yes, I do see what you mean but in this example, I see it as someone acting in the best interests of someone else, therefore, it's a forgiveable form of control, if at all viewed as such.

 

On the other hand, why not let the dumbarse take care of himself and take the consequences for his own actions by being late, perhaps even crashing out at the friend's place? He might be more responsible next time.

[Geishawhelk]

Yes, I do see what you mean but in this example, I see it as someone acting in the best interests of someone else, therefore, it's a forgiveable form of control, if at all viewed as such.

 

On the other hand, why not let the dumbarse take care of himself and take the consequences for his own actions by being late, perhaps even crashing out at the friend's place? He might be more responsible next time.

 

because then we get into a whole new ball game...

Actions and consequences.... As you rightly point out, dumbarse having to 'take care of himself and take the consequences for his own actions', is all very well, but what of the eventual and possible consequences to you?

What would the long- and short-term consequences be for the relationship?

Resentment towards you that you wouldn't help him out?

resentment for him, because his crashing out at a friend's house means you've got the only set of keys to the car, and he needs it for work...?

 

What it all boils down to is the triumvirate of a relationship:

 

Respect. Communication. Trust.

 

(Two of your non-negotiables are here. They're a given....Honesty, Integrity, reliability - the others you mentioned - are all covered by these three...)

 

Lke a tripod supporting a petri-dish above a bunsen burner...

Take one 'leg' away, and it all collapses. If one is missing, the remaining two cannot exist or adequately function without the third.... they can try, but it's dicey.... !!

 

The 'Love' you mention?

 

That's IS the Petrie dish.... Contents bubbling away....?

passion... desire.... attraction....

 

Good analogy, init?

 

I made it up myself you know....

[Leoni]

because then we get into a whole new ball game...

Actions and consequences.... As you rightly point out, dumbarse having to 'take care of himself and take the consequences for his own actions', is all very well, but what of the eventual and possible consequences to you?

What would the long- and short-term consequences be for the relationship?

Resentment towards you that you wouldn't help him out?

resentment for him, because his crashing out at a friend's house means you've got the only set of keys to the car, and he needs it for work...?

Teehee...oh well...

 

Public transit or a cab, never hurt anyone.

 

I see it as an eventuality that I'm prepared to take. His resentment would be uncalled for. He's an adult, therefore, responsible for himself.

 

Keep in mind that your analogy suggests, repetitive dumbarse behaviour. If this were a one-off situation, of course I would take care of him, whether it's construed as controlling, or not.

 

What it all boils down to is the triumvirate of a relationship:

 

Respect. Communication. Trust.

 

(Two of your non-negotiables are here. They're a given....Honesty, Integrity, reliability - the others you mentioned - are all covered by these three...)

 

Lke a tripod supporting a petri-dish above a bunsen burner...

Take one 'leg' away, and it all collapses. If one is missing, the remaining two cannot exist or adequately function without the third.... they can try, but it's dicey.... !!

I fully agree.

 

The 'Love' you mention?

 

That's IS the Petrie dish.... Contents bubbling away....?

passion... desire.... attraction....

 

Good analogy, init?

 

I made it up myself you know....

So...Dr. Geish, how is the specimen?

[Geishawhelk]

well, at the moment we need to put some coins in the gas-meter....!!

 

Oh dear....

 

Dr. Geish.... I might adopt that...

Unless it sounds too much like Dr Phil....!!

[lindya]

Like it or not, there are always, and always will be control issues in a relationship, to one extent or another. And it is about first of all recognising it, acknowledging it, admitting it and compromising. but Control always exists within a relationship.

 

Agreed. Friends who have observed me and my father in the same room have often commented that he's quite controlling in his attitude. He is, I guess, but it's a controlling attitude that's borne of love. He wants the best for his family members, he's convinced he knows best (sometimes he's right - quite often, in fact, though I hate to admit it) and therefore it's a struggle for him to hold back that desire to dictate and control.

 

Probably because I'm used to that, I've a higher tolerance thresh-hold for slightly controlling people than some other people I know, and will tend to regard the people who take a slightly parental approach to me with affection rather than irritation. Other times, even as an adult I'll rebel against that. My longest relationship was with a guy who was the polar opposite of my father in that he was very much "do your own thing, don't have any expectations of me, don't look to me for guidance, go out with other men if you want..." A paragon of non-possessiveness. My father would eat his own kidneys before he'd advocate that my mother get jiggy with other men.

 

That relationship encouraged me to aspire towards being a more independent personality. On the other hand, there was that part of me that wanted a guy who would take control, and I felt very insecure at times around that boyfriend. There was the nagging feeling that nobody who genuinely loved me would want to afford me that much freedom. I think I'd always feel that way around someone who veered that heavily towards the "non-possessive, non-controlling" relationship approach.

 

For me, a similar scenario to the "completely non-possessive boyfriend" situation might be where a parent gives a child so much freedom that it raises issues of "Is this liberal parenting or is the lack of control and intervention here tantamount to emotional neglect and lack of care?" Of course we shouldn't expect our partners to take a parental approach towards us...but I think on some occasions we will look for a bit of that. For me, a partner who would never take up that role because they were determined to avoid, at all costs, the "controlling" label wouldn't be a satisfactory partner. We'd end up making eachother feel dysfunctional and "wrong" - just as that ex boyfriend and I did.

 

The nature of love is probably that it's a bit dysfunctional. I'm not advocating that people should regard romantic relationships as an excuse to go off the rails emotionally and stop behaving like rational adults...but when people are very preoccupied, in the romantic sphere with not being in any way co-dependent, controlling, passive aggressive, manipulative etc...then I think it can result in quite a clinical and passionless feeling relationship. We do all have these imperfect bits of behaviour, and maybe it doesn't do to aspire to ridding ourselves completely of them.

Edited January 14, 2008 by lindya

[Geishawhelk]

My father would eat his own kidneys before he'd advocate that my mother get jiggy with other men.....

 

.....We do all have these imperfect bits of behaviour, and maybe it doesn't do to aspire to ridding ourselves completely of them.

 

 

In its entirety, the post is brilliant, and I thank you for your input.

But the first line I have taken from it, made me laugh out loud...!

 

I entirely agree with the second point too, and i apologise if I have worded things in such a way as to appear to be making the suggestion that such characteristics need suppression or getting rid of.

No, i think as you rightly say... if they form a make-up and part of who we are, then that is that. But the point is to recognise the traits and acknowledge them, and work with the other partner to accommodate both sets of characteristics.

It's a question of channelling them...

 

Thanks Lindya....

[lindya]

In its entirety, the post is brilliant, and I thank you for your input.

 

Thanks! And thanks for starting the thread. The whole issue of control, and people's perceptions of it, is something that interests me a lot.

 

I used to work with adolescents, and it was interesting to see the way those issues were played out and discussed by children and staff alike. Children would be criticised for manipulating or attention-seeking - but all too often that's where workers' analyses would end. They often wouldn't examine and challenge their own perceptions....or even accept that it's in the nature of children to manipulate and attention seek, and isn't always something to get too worked up about.

 

They're learning how to survive in a group setting...and those behaviours are all part of the experimentation involved in figuring out how best to survive. So sometimes I'd let myself be manipulated - if, for instance, a child was employing charm on me. I'd figure "he/she is working that angle well. That might serve them well in the future." I'd only put my foot down and stop letting the charm offensive work when the child crossed the line where I could see they regarded me as a gullible idiot. Then it would be time to give out the message "okay...you're not handling this so well now. You're letting this bit of control I'm letting you have over me go to your head, so I'm taking some of it back now, because ultimately I'm in charge here not you."

 

Pretty much the kind of ego-preserving/ego-deflating behaviour that's constantly going on when people are trying to figure out how to manage their own/other people's desire to control people, situations and outcomes.

 

I entirely agree with the second point too, and i apologise if I have worded things in such a way as to appear to be making the suggestion that such characteristics need suppression or getting rid of.

 

No, I didn't perceive you as making that suggestion. I think most reasonable people are alert to their own potentially problematic traits, and strive to keep them in check rather than eliminate them altogether.

Edited January 14, 2008 by lindya

[Leoni]

Such an interesting thread.

 

I guess what you're saying Dr. Geish, is that instead of battling or suppressing control aspects in a relationship, relinquish control some of the time and take control, other times. This isn't far off from what I said, about passing the lead torch back and forth.

 

Trust, respect and communication, your three legs to the tripod. So easy to say, so difficult to do. If person A, trusts and respects person B, they should be more open and able to communicate clearly, both sending and receiving wants, needs and requirements. Of course the assumption is that person B, is at the same or similar level of trust and respect. I suppose it's debatable whether a tripod exists, if both persons aren't on the same playing field.

 

Insecurity plays a big part in creating dysfunction. Everytime someone feels insecure, they kick out one or more legs of the tripod. Then both parties have to work together, to repair the tripod. Bad mojo.

[michaelk]

I hate to bring it 'down' to a level of, well, business, almost, but look upon a relationship as an emotional contract. I mean, let's face it, if you stand infront of a priest/pastor/minister, you make a series of promises... so they're assurances, commitments.. you are enteing into a bargain with your spouse that you promise to do certain things for one another.... but many people don't get married, or at least don't look at a marriage as either being on the cards, or even conceivable, if the relationship is a new one. But without getting too heavy, what people omit to consider when they start going out with someone, is that there is still an element of a 'contract' there... If you meet someone and hit it off with them, you unconsciously decide, "ok, this person is hot, I like them, there's a chemistry there - I'm not going to casually see someone else at the same time, I'll go out with them, enjoy their company and be their significant other, because it looks as if this may be something special!"

Obviously people don't go through this scenario, but you get the gist.

the difficulties arise when we don't progress fromEITHER the 'what's in it for me?' to the 'What's in it for them?' OR VICE VERSA.... depending on the 'quality' or perception of your own commitment, there is a possibility that, unless communication is clear and honest, something somewhere is going to tip the balance. In any relationship (even between the two sides of our own mind/body....!) one side is 'stronger' than the other. It's a law of Nature, if you will. In seeking happiness and fulfilment, we're seeking specific qualities in an individual. We might be seeking someone who will be at our beck and call, respond to our every whim and make us happy. But somethimes, we want a man who is handsome, strong and virile, and who can afford us protection and security, or we want a woman who is quick-witted, funny, intelligent and desirable.... Don't leap down my throat everyone...I'm not stereotyping, I'm just illustrating!!

So we'd like a guy who can take control, or we'd like a woman who oozes independence.... But, after a while, the dynamics can alter....We find either that he's too dominating and protecive and we can't breathe... or maybe that she's just a little too indepndent, outgoing and dazzling... we feel either threatened and insecure, or outshone and sidelined.... and here the imbalances become extremely evident.

 

Sorry, but I'm not sure where the issue of control comes into play here.

 

Certainly, when people enter into a relationship, it's because some needs of theirs are fulfilled by being with their partner. And a relationship does imply a kind of contract or agreement in that each partner agrees to be there for the other, in some ways exclusively. But I'm not clear on how you think these two things fit together.

 

True, a person may also assume that having their particular needs fulfilled is part of the contract, but this can be a dangerous assumption, since chances are the partner isn't even aware that they are providing that, or how important it is. Perhaps this is what you meant by needing to progress from 'what's in it for me' to 'what's in it for them'? If you really understand what your partner is getting from you, you can at least make the effort to continue providing it. But I think the problem here is that most of us aren't even clear on exactly what we are getting from our partners, beyond a superficial level. Few people are that introspective.

 

Coming back to control, again I'll agree that people will do what's necessary to get what they want, and in a relationship this can mean manipulation or outright demands when our needs aren't being met any longer. Maybe this is what you meant? That when our expectations of what our partner will provide are not met, we exert what influence we can to bring the situation back to meeting our needs.

 

People look at the superficial problem...

"My G/F went out the other evening, and she told me she was going out with a bunch of her work-mates, but I discovered that she ended up having dinner with another male colleague...."

 

On the surface, the guy might be pissedoff that she had dinner with another guy who she works with, but in fact, this is about validation, honesty, independence and self-esteem.... people see the immediate issue, and threads then laboriously work themselves to trying to locate the real issue further down the line.

 

Nobody ever starts a thread with: "I think issues of security have arisen for me, because I don't feel my G/F has validated my importance in her life.... She has failed to see how important honesty is to me, and maybe I didn't see how independent she is, and i failed to perceive her free-spirited attitude could be a threat to my self-esteem...."

It's not natural! But that's actually what it all is!

 

So we see the trite stuff (the Mortar...).. and by the time we get to the real nitty-gitty, (the bricks) it's a week down the line, other threads have been posted, and there's so much advice, opinion and views flying around, that nobody knows what's going on any more.

The Trick is to see the 'problem' for what it really is... and to see the issues manifesting, and see what's at stake....

 

Well, what can I say about this? LS is an open advice forum. There are no requirements that people must meet before posting, so it shouldn't be a surprise that we don't cut to the heart of the issue as quickly as a professional might!

 

Each person uses their own experience and personal insights to provide advice, and while it's nothing like talking to my therapist, who has a very useful professional perspective, I still find that I glean wonderful bits of wisdom here and there from the posters on these boards.