Why are Americans so hell bent on saving their marriages?

[Woggle]

You bring up a valid point. For every man who is/was a chauvinist, there is/was a woman who will be not be satisfied with anything her husband does for her. The more he gives, the more she wants. He bends over backwards to make things equal for her, and then she labels him a wimp because he won't stand up to her. It's a vicious cycle.

 

And the ironic thing is that the chauvinists are the ones that end up being the winners. The men who never listened to feminists attempts to make us more sensitive and to civilize us are the ones that came up lucky.

[Ariadne]

Hi,

 

Women who were "the marrying kind" were good girls treating sex as their duty. Boring! Boring for both parties!

 

I think sex must have been much better in the past too. What do you think people did when they didn't have computers, television, ipods, long work hours, and the wife wasn't tired?

 

Women became equal to their children because that was all they had. No new knowledge made for stale adult interaction and everyone needs their brain stimulated too.

 

My father is a Civil Engineer and my mom a home maker. Do you think for a moment that my father would want to come home to discuss the better ways to design some structure with my mom?

 

Of course not. When he came home he wanted to relax. And they had plenty of things to talk about.

 

Coming home to a clean house and hot food is nice. But so is conversation that isn't comprised of tales of diaper rash and the itsy bitsy spider. Men of that era had to step out to meet that need.

 

The fact that women don't work doesn't make them stupid. That is the inferiority complex of women that think that if they don't have a job they won't have anything intersting to say.

 

It doesn't work that way.

[Zolie]

And the ironic thing is that the chauvinists are the ones that end up being the winners. The men who never listened to feminists attempts to make us more sensitive and to civilize us are the ones that came up lucky.

 

How so? What makes them lucky?

[Woggle]

How so? What makes them lucky?

 

Most men I know who have no problem staying in their relationships are the biggest misogynistic pricks who treat women like crap. It really is true that the worse a man treats a woman the more she wants him. The men I know who are unlucky in love are the sensitive ones who are everything feminists claim they want men to be.

[lost4ever]

Out of all the people in the US that are below the poverty line; single women with children are by far the biggest majority. The US government doesn't want anyone to be under the poverty line. Since we (the government) can't control who has children and who does not ,we put an emphasis on marriage. We try to take away (or greatly reduce) the section of the population that is going to make us look bad.

That is why the US makes it so difficult for people to divorce, that is why the US has every reason in the world for you to get married and to stay married.

 

People in the US feel entitled to have children, even when they can't afford them, even when they don't have a stable enviroment to raise them in, and this stigma of marriage will last until society understands that you need a little bit of maturity to raise a child. The governement is not here to bail everyone out at all times.

 

As far as my views on marriage and divorce: To each its own. But please don't whine and complain about how you hate to be stuck with your spouse and your so unhappy, The government, religion, and society makes it hard to divorce, not impossible. You have responsibilities in life, and I feel the order is this.

1.) If you have children: raise, grow and care for them until they are on there own.

2.) Look out for you, You make your own happiness, if someone stands in your way of that happiness it's time for them to be removed from your life.

3.)the well being of others, you should always consider other peoples well being, and do what is best for them, unless it directly hinders your well being.

[PerfectLee]

People in the US feel entitled to have children, even when they can't afford them, even when they don't have a stable enviroment to raise them in, and this stigma of marriage will last until society understands that you need a little bit of maturity to raise a child.

Agreed! People need some maturity in their marriage too. I think that is what it really comes down to, maturity. If you can't handle your marriage and the ups & downs that come with it, how can you possibly raise a child?

 

I'm gay, my GF & I have been trying to get pregnant for awhile now...but NOTHING! lol I think something is missing..... LOL

[Zolie]

Most men I know who have no problem staying in their relationships are the biggest misogynistic pricks who treat women like crap. It really is true that the worse a man treats a woman the more she wants him. The men I know who are unlucky in love are the sensitive ones who are everything feminists claim they want men to be.

 

Ah, I see what you mean. I think it is a case of a movement having gone too far. The women's liberation movement came about because women simply wanted to stop being treated like chattel and wanted to enjoy the same privileges men did. But, they didn't necessarily want to emasculate their men in the process. That was just an unfortunate by-product of the movement, which occurred because when women weren't taken seriously in their liberation demands, they upped the roar, and things started to get out of hand.

 

I like to think that the current generation is balancing things a little better...

[nittygritty]

The value of women and children have become disposable and interchangeable items. Women and childrens rights are not being protected when it comes to divorce or the dissolving of relationships that produced children.

 

The expectations that is placed on women in marriage or just cohabitation is to take care of the home, raise the children, work full-time and keep the man's needs and wants satisfied in order to prevent the man from seeking a relationship with another woman.

 

Many women are allowing men to devalue them to a level of mistress or concubine in hopes of getting what's left after a divorce takes place.

 

Men are being allowed to legally walk away from all parenting responsibilities when either a divorce takes place or relationships that produced children ends.

 

Going back to the "beaver cleaver" marriage arrangements is impossible nor were women happy with that type of arrangement. Nor are women happy with the arrangement that evolved from that because men are still not being held equally accountable to raising the children.

 

The only solution is to hold men and women legally accountable and responsible for the children they produce and punish those that refuse to be responsible parents.

[Trialbyfire]

But please don't whine and complain about how you hate to be stuck with your spouse and your so unhappy,

I couldn't agree with you more. Why can't people be responsible for themselves? If you're unhappy, do something about it and I don't mean cheat. Either fight for your marriage or walk.

[Woggle]

I am old enough to remember when all these daytime talk shows used to be on just railing on men for not being exactly what feminists thought they should be and all the pressure on men to be more sensitive so I do think many people were trying to emasculate men even though they may not have been aware they were doing it. I think the problem with men today is that we keep letting women define what manhood should be and since women don't have a clue what it is to be a man their blueprint might not be the best one to follow.

 

I don't think the younger generation is getting much better at all. I see how some of them conduct their relationships and it just makes me want to shake me head. One of the reasons I married an older woman is because I just can't deal with women my age.

[nittygritty]

I am old enough to remember when all these daytime talk shows used to be on just railing on men for not being exactly what feminists thought they should be and all the pressure on men to be more sensitive so I do think many people were trying to emasculate men even though they may not have been aware they were doing it. I think the problem with men today is that we keep letting women define what manhood should be and since women don't have a clue what it is to be a man their blueprint might not be the best one to follow.

 

I don't think the younger generation is getting much better at all. I see how some of them conduct their relationships and it just makes me want to shake me head. One of the reasons I married an older woman is because I just can't deal with women my age.

 

Your wife doesn't have children to raise so my guess is that your both able to equally contribute to the needs of the relationship. If children were added to the mix and an equal contribution was not being made then there would be marriage problems.

[Woggle]

There were no children in my first marriage and that went to hell so I don't think that is the entire issue in many marriages.

[nittygritty]

There were no children in my first marriage and that went to hell so I don't think that is the entire issue in many marriages.

 

Did your ex wife equally contribute to all of the needs of the marriage?

 

Or did her mental imbalance just add to the problems of the marriage?

[Woggle]

Did your ex wife equally contribute to all of the needs of the marriage?

 

Or did her mental imbalance just add to the problems of the marriage?

 

She barely contributed anything at all.

[OWoman]

I am a man and I don't want a 1950s marriage. I don't think most men want that but many men especially from the baby boomer and 70s generations tried to make things work with a modern feminist woman and it blew up in their face. I know that my father supported my mother through every endeavor in life, shared household and childcare responsibilities and never betrayed her or abused her yet she still turned on him and blamed him for all her unhapiness. I used to see the anger and resentment she had towards him and I and to this day I still don't understand it. He did nothing to deserve it. I repeated the same cycle and married a woman just like her but I got out before any lasting damage was done. My mother might be an extreme case but there are many men who ended up in his situation and when men today rail against modern feminist women they are not trying to put women back in the kitchen but they rail against women like my mother.

 

Woggle I think this kind of thing often happens on the gender front; less on other fronts because seldom does a racist choose to marry someone of the race they disparage, and very rarely does a gay person choose to marry

a homophobe... but misogynists regularly marry women, and misandrists regularly marry men. And then spend their lives taking their issues out on their partner (and perhaps their kids).

 

Often also women (in particular) who feel oppressed by "patriarchy" feel powerless to rage against a faceless system, so they land up taking it out on someone they identify with that system, whether or not that person themselves identifies themselves in that way or chooses the benefits they derive from their position. And so their husband becomes the unwitting brunt and there is very little someone in that position can do. Acting repentant just suggests he's guilty, acting defensive brings out more anger and ignoring it is just viewed as further oppression.

[nittygritty]

She barely contributed anything at all.

 

Which is why divorce took place.

 

Whether children are involved or not there has to be an equal contribution to where its mutually beneficial to both partners to be married.

[Woggle]

I understand but I am not taking the blame for stuff I did not do. Women can take their manhating issues out on some other man.

[Ariadne]

Well,

 

I think the biggest problem with marriages is that people have no idea what love is.

 

They think that infatuation is love, they are excited about some cute girl and they'd do anything for her, they translate that to love, they are happy with someone, they translate that to love, they really like someone but they get along like hell, and they think they'll make it work.

 

People should be educated first on what love is, before they decide to get married.

 

It goes something like this:

 

When marrying, ask yourself this question: Do you believe that you will be able to converse well with this person into your old age? Everything else in marriage is transitory. ~Friedrich Nietzsche

[Curmudgeon]

People in the US feel entitled to have children, even when they can't afford them, even when they don't have a stable enviroment to raise them in, and this stigma of marriage will last until society understands that you need a little bit of maturity to raise a child. The governement is not here to bail everyone out at all times.

 

By the time you have gained the maturity and stability to do a good job of raising your children and can afford them, you're quite likely too old to want to do so.

 

Children are somewhat wasted on the young but they're the ones best suited to have them physically.

 

Go figure!

[OWoman]

Marriage is important, not to be taken lightly and worth saving as an institution because it's serious, not frivilous and because if you can't commit to even just one person, what can you commit to? There was a reason, back in the early- to mid-20th century, when such things were permitted, why corporate America favored married men over single men. Marriage was believed to equate to stability, seriousness of purpose and loyalty.

 

Ah, the good old days!

 

Curm, speaking as a manager, I'd take a single person over a married person ANY DAY. Married people are forever going off and making babies (at least maternity leave is long enough to get leave cover; paternity leave you just have to suck up and make do) and having to take kids to the doctor and leave early for the swimming gala and phone in to take the day off because the youngest has mumps and the creche won't take her. At least you know with single people there's an outside chance they'll take their work seriously, put it first even if they're ambitious, and that their loyalty is not mediated by music lessons and rugby practice and the babysitter's need to get home.

 

I'd far rather deal with the odd hangover or dumping than the festering depression of long-term souring of marriages, the loss of focus preceding divorce or the snappy irritability that haloes around a fall-out with the spouse.

[lindya]

I don't think the younger generation is getting much better at all. I see how some of them conduct their relationships and it just makes me want to shake me head. One of the reasons I married an older woman is because I just can't deal with women my age.

 

Given that I'm close to your wife's age, I'm not sure what to make of that.

Far from seeing rampant feminism what I'm picking up is that younger women now feel a lot more pressure to be everything pleasing to a man. Great body, great career, porn star performance and technique in bed, into a bit of bisexuality if that's what their guy likes.... I see that online, and think it's all an exaggeration. Then when I talk to younger women in real life it seems that those pressures are real, offline as well as on....and that they're working hard to meet those challenges.

 

We were flatter chested, had more bad hair days, were probably far less savvy about men and more belligerently confident about our boundaries. Anal sex, if it happened at all, was considered a rare treat that men should be grateful for rather than getting all aggressive, self-entitled and "if you don't do it then f*ck off, because plenty of other women will" about.

 

Let me pat down my crinoline skirt and adjust my corset before I continue to rant. Are men guilty of doing exactly what they complain of women doing? Talking about how they want things to be, issuing demands and unrealistic expectations like spoiled little children...only to get pangs of dissatisfaction and emptiness that they don't quite understand, when they get precisely that they asked for - but didn't do anything too spectacular (or, in some cases, anything at all) to earn?

 

It seems to me that there are a lot of gorgeous young women willing to try their best to meet those fantasies and demands, so I simply can't understand what men are complaining about. Unless, of course, they'd like to get back into the friend zone with us for a while and stop being such angry wankers.

 

This is, of course, not directed at all men. There are plenty of good men out there. They know who they are, and should not be offended by this post (just kidding with you, Woggle).

[Zolie]

Do you believe that you will be able to converse well with this person into your old age?

 

I think that is a very valid think to ask oneself before marrying. My ex is 11 years older than me - I was 20, he was 31 when we married - so I did ask myself what I thought it would be like when I was 30 and he was 41, and when I was 40 and he was 51, etc.

 

And you know what? I couldn't answer that. Because at the age of 20, I had no idea what I would be like or what I would want at age 30, 40, etc. I don't think anyone does.

 

And if I had, I probably would have married him anyway, because even though I was having doubts (due to the sexual frequency issue) I still loved him fiercely (and thought the sexual problems would go away after the stress of the wedding) and didn't care at age 20 what I would want at age 30, 40, ect. If we lived our lives now, for how we *might* feel in the future, then we would never do anything based how we feel now.

[nittygritty]

I understand but I am not taking the blame for stuff I did not do. Women can take their manhating issues out on some other man.

 

What???

 

Stating something that has long been a real problem of inequality does not constitute "manhating".

[Woggle]

What???

 

Stating something that has long been a real problem of inequality does not constitute "manhating".

 

I was refering to the other post that said some women take their manhating issues out on men who have done nothing wrong.

[HokeyReligions]

Hi,

 

I feel sorry for people in the past (say my parents/ grandparents) who were miserably stuck together for a lifetime simply because society or religion looked down upon divorce.

 

I much prefer things to be the way they are now.

 

I also think that people in the past didn't have all the problems that people do now. Cohabitation was easier.

 

Women for the most part didn't have to go to work and took the house work seriously. A husband wouldn't come home to a rat's nest.

 

People were not as stressed as they are now either.

 

And there was more respect. Women were not self-entitled as they are now.

 

(I'm thinking of my grandparents as I write this)

 

So when people lived together things were more civil, easier, congenial.

 

I much prefer the way things were before the stupid women's liberation movement that destroyed society. Women are meant to be home with the children, and men with a regular job should be able to support it all (not like now that if the woman doesn't work they wouldn't be able to afford a living for the most part).

 

The perfect marriage for me would be like in Leave it to Beaver, one of my favorite shows, it doesn't get any better than that.

 

 

You're kidding right? Women have always worked hard and the stresses and problems were the same "then" as they are now. TV shows like LITB romanticized an idea - none of it was real. The people that think life was like TV are the ones who think that today's problems are all new. Divorce existed for as long as marriage has existed.

 

Women's liberation brought to the forefront the problems and issues that have always existed. It just gave women the validation to make the changes in their own lives that they did not have previously. It became a support group for those who didn't know how to handle the issues. It gave women the right to choose an independent life and not be thrust into one against their own desires or with no support. We got a foothold to demand equal pay for equal work. It brought with it controversies, just as any revolution brings new pressures. Step out of your comfort zone and you face new challenges - some are anticipated, some are not. The 'family values' dynamic that existed in the majority of society were one of those challenges that was expected. Building the support system for that took and is taking a long time. But it was never unexpected, except by those who base their ideas of what life was like and should be like to idealized situations presented to us on those little boxes in our homes. Men suffer for this too if they can't understand the real expectations of their lives.