Why are Americans so hell bent on saving their marriages?

[OWoman]

And the argument is... well, there is this tribe in the middle of Africa where the women are the bread winners.

 

Ok...

 

(..those black men...)

 

On the contrary - the argument isn't that black people are different to the norm - the argument is that the "norm" you posit is in essence an exception to the rule; the rule is that women work, and always have. In many / most societies that work has been located outside of the home; in some (cottage industry in Europe, say) it's been located inside the home for both parents (and children) alike. The separation of a "women's sphere" or home and children and a "men's sphere" of work is an anomaly, not an "ideal" or a norm.

[SamZamboni]

It's a matter of character.

 

People could modify the vows though

 

"I take thee till I no longer wanna be with you."

 

Why lie about the till death do us part stuff?

[Zolie]

It's a matter of character.

 

People could modify the vows though

 

"I take thee till I no longer wanna be with you."

 

Why lie about the till death do us part stuff?

 

Because it's not a lie at the time. At the time most people speaking those vows believe it IS 'til death do us part. Even if we have the safety net of divorce in the back of our minds, we still believe *our* relationship and our love will surpass any and all issues enough to make it work.

[marlena]

"I take thee till I no longer wanna be with you."

 

Why lie about the till death do us part stuff?

 

blah,blah,blah, .........................for as long as you both love eachother and wish to share your lives.

[OpenBook]

It's a matter of character.

 

People could modify the vows though

 

"I take thee till I no longer wanna be with you."

 

Why lie about the till death do us part stuff?

 

:D But why take the vow at all?? Historically, marriage protected women from being left pregnant, destitute and unable to take care of themselves. Now that that protection is no longer needed, neither is marriage.

 

(I say that mainly to keep the debate going... God help me, but a small part of me still believes in marriage, and that MP can be successful and happy and even thrive within it.)

[marlena]

Because it's not a lie at the time. At the time most people speaking those vows believe it IS 'til death do us part. Even if we have the safety net of divorce in the back of our minds, we still believe *our* relationship and our love will surpass any and all issues enough to make it work.

 

True. The innocence of youth!

 

Today, I would never repeat those vows! I'd start off with the intention for it to be for keeps while all along bearing in mind that it may well not turn out the way I had hoped for.

 

Nah, I wouldn't marry period. No reason to. My child-bearing years are over!

[SamZamboni]

There's some sense in those words, but not character. Marriage is serious business and making babies even seriouser. I wonder how many nuns and the like make these "sacred" vows knowing that because of this or that, some rationalization, they can bow out any ole time they feel faint. What about marriages where one of both plus the kidlets, come to depend on these vows as most would the promise of eternal life and happiness... from their perceived Maker?

 

But then too a vow is not a truth or a lie, per se..it's a vow. A pledge. You keep it or no. Hand shakes aren't worth anything like what they used to be either.

[marlena]

Historically, marriage protected women from being left pregnant, destitute and unable to take care of themselves.

 

Add to that and for men to have a built-in maid, sexual partner and mother for his children.

[Zolie]

:D (I say that mainly to keep the debate going... God help me, but a small part of me still believes in marriage, and that MP can be successful and happy and even thrive within it.)

 

Oh, me too, OpenBook, me too. I just don't believe in it for me, lol.

[OWoman]

It's a matter of character.

 

People could modify the vows though

 

"I take thee till I no longer wanna be with you."

 

Why lie about the till death do us part stuff?

 

I had a civil marriage, in a magistrate's court, and we weren't asked any "till death" stuff, merely if we were old enough and of sound mind and agreeable to marrying each other. (No proof was sought of the "sound mind" bit either - he tookk our word for it ) The whole thing - including the witnesses signing - took less than ten minutes.

 

About as long as my divorce hearing, too.

[nittygritty]

True. The innocence of youth!

 

Today, I would never repeat those vows! I'd start off with the intention for it to be for keeps while all along bearing in mind that it may well not turn out the way I had hoped for.

 

Nah, I wouldn't marry period. No reason to. My child-bearing years are over!

 

Your feelings about marriage are based on your experience as are mine. I am curious about why "child-bearing" influences your opinion?

[OpenBook]

Add to that and for men to have a built-in maid, sexual partner and mother for his children.

 

Yes, unfortunately that was the trade-off we've always had to make... up until now. Aren't you glad we're living in this age?? (And Woggle, before you go off on me, I absolutely adore men!)

[marlena]

Yeah,

Civil weddings are,well, more civil. I've been a witness to quite a few. No allusions to morality, religious or otherwise.

[Curmudgeon]

I guess it's a matter of where you prefer similarity, and where complementarity.

 

What I wrote was not meant to be exclusionary. Women like you are a delightful and unique find, not the norm!

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, I remember this discussion you had:

 

If I want dinner, 4-5 nights our of 7 I have to make it. Thankfully, I'm a very good cook and, yes, if I cook for myself I cook for her as well. If I need clean laundry I'd best get about doing it myself or chances are it won't get done. Same with grocery and household shopping.

 

That was somne time ago. Times do have a way of changing. So do people.

[marlena]

Open Book,

 

Yes, I am glad to be living in an age where I do not have to adhere to any kind of female stereotype. I like knowing I have the right to choose how I live my life.

[Ariadne]

And you're considerably younger than I am Ariadne.

 

Perhaps you'd like to be a Stepford wife but I can't imagine anything more vapid and uninteresting or unstimulating. I certainly wouldn't want a woman/wife who "performs" on command, doesn't have her own mind and opinions and can't hold her own during intellectual discussions.

 

I just saw this Curm.

 

Who said that a Stepford wife had to be stupid? Or a robot?

 

You equate a woman having a full time job as being "intelligent" and a woman that is dedicated to taking care of the home and family as dumb.

 

You don't have to have a full time job to be able to have an intellectual discussion or be interesting.

[SamZamboni]

Yes, unfortunately that was the trade-off we've always had to make... up until now.

 

 

Huh? You mean you ladies didn't prefer to stay home, boss the maid around, and shop for lingerie?

 

We do it that way down here in the South for a lot of reasons... give me time and I'll coke up with a good one, maybe.

[Curmudgeon]

You equate a woman having a full time job as being "intelligent" and a woman that is dedicated to taking care of the home and family as dumb.

 

The women in the Stepford Wives movie were automatons until their humanity finally surfaced and they went on the offensive.

 

The ex was a stay-at-home-mom for 25 years and was anything but dumb. She's the polar opposite of my wife who worked all her life until we decided she could retire five years ago. My wife is very intelligent and conversation with her always was, and remains, considerably more stimulating than with the ex.

 

In this case only it's the vast difference between a passive dependent and an independent woman. Given the two choices, I prefer the latter.

[SamZamboni]

Ex cell ennnnnnnt

[nittygritty]

Yes, unfortunately that was the trade-off we've always had to make... up until now.

 

 

Huh? You mean you ladies didn't prefer to stay home, boss the maid around, and shop for lingerie?

 

We do it that way down here in the South for a lot of reasons... give me time and I'll coke up with a good one, maybe.

 

 

 

Don't do that! Thats not the solution.

[marlena]

Your feelings about marriage are based on your experience as are mine. I am curious about why "child-bearing" influences your opinion?

 

Well, I think that the institution of marriage is obsolescent and redundant.

 

The only reason I would get married is to have children legitimately as I know there is still a lot of prejudice where children born out of wedlock are concerned. 'Til that time when this sort of prejudice is eradicated, I wouldn't put my child through this type of marginalization. Thankfully, things are changing.

 

I raised my daughter single-handedly and she grew up to be a very fine adult so I know single-parenting can work wonderfully.

[Curmudgeon]

I had a civil marriage, in a magistrate's court, and we weren't asked any "till death" stuff, merely if we were old enough and of sound mind and agreeable to marrying each other. (No proof was sought of the "sound mind" bit either - he tookk our word for it ) The whole thing - including the witnesses signing - took less than ten minutes.

 

About as long as my divorce hearing, too.

 

We became a cliche, ran away to Reno and eloped. The "ceremony" took two minutes. I asked the minister to simply ask the bare minimum and say the same to make it legal. He did and we were married!

 

I believe it consisted of "Do you..., Do you..., By the powers vested in me by the State of Nevada I now pronounce you..."

[Ariadne]

Hi,

 

The women in the Stepford Wives movie were automatons until their humanity finally surfaced and they went on the offensive.

 

Actually, the Stepford wives were created by a woman that wanted to go back to the "way things were" and created a perfect world where everyone was happy after "she" got tired of being a corporate woman.

 

Yes, then you have the plot of the husbands buying into that and you get the whole movie...

 

In this case only it's the vast difference between a passive dependent and an independent woman. Given the two choices, I prefer the latter.

 

I prefer an independent minded woman making the choice of being a home maker. Because she loves the man, and wants to be a SAHM taking care of the children and home, instead of spending 8 to 10 hrs a day in a stupid office.

[marlena]

Certain activities sharpen the intellect. Cooking and cleaning certainly don't.

 

There are jobs and then there are jobs. Some are mindless while others are challenging to the mind.