Why are Americans so hell bent on saving their marriages?

[Trialbyfire]

Given that I'm close to your wife's age, I'm not sure what to make of that.

Far from seeing rampant feminism what I'm picking up is that younger women now feel a lot more pressure to be everything pleasing to a man. Great body, great career, porn star performance and technique in bed, into a bit of bisexuality if that's what their guy likes.... I see that online, and think it's all an exaggeration. Then when I talk to younger women in real life it seems that those pressures are real, offline as well as on....and that they're working hard to meet those challenges.

 

We were flatter chested, had more bad hair days, were probably far less savvy about men and more belligerently confident about our boundaries. Anal sex, if it happened at all, was considered a rare treat that men should be grateful for rather than getting all aggressive, self-entitled and "if you don't do it then f*ck off, because plenty of other women will" about.

 

Let me pat down my crinoline skirt and adjust my corset before I continue to rant. Are men guilty of doing exactly what they complain of women doing? Talking about how they want things to be, issuing demands and unrealistic expectations like spoiled little children...only to get pangs of dissatisfaction and emptiness that they don't quite understand, when they get precisely that they asked for - but didn't do anything too spectacular (or, in some cases, anything at all) to earn?

 

It seems to me that there are a lot of gorgeous young women willing to try their best to meet those fantasies and demands, so I simply can't understand what men are complaining about. Unless, of course, they'd like to get back into the friend zone with us for a while and stop being such angry wankers.

 

This is, of course, not directed at all men. There are plenty of good men out there. They know who they are, and should not be offended by this post (just kidding with you, Woggle).

Oh so true! I do apologize for not being an analized DD.

[Curmudgeon]

Curm, speaking as a manager, I'd take a single person over a married person ANY DAY.

 

Unfortunately, in this day-and-age, single people are also having babies at an alarming rate with all the same distractions as married people, and maybe more. That, coupled with the lack of maturity that comes with youth and the entitlement attitude most seem to be raised with nowadays and I don't find youngsters to be among my best and most dependable employees.

 

Remember, I invoked the early- to mid-20th century. In those times, most mothers stayed at home and fathers left the child-rearing to them and were nowhere near as involved in their childrens' lives as they are now.

[marlena]

Ariadne,

 

You paint a lovely picture of what marriage was like in the past but I am afraid it is far from realistic. The "Leave it to Beaver" model was intentionally projected by a society that was geared to keep women "in their place" and was not at all, however pretty, a realistic depiction of marriage. Marriage was romaticised for a reason and that was to perpetuate conservative value and ideals that often undermined a woman'r role in society.

 

Simply because gender roles were clear cut and widely accepted does not mean that women were happy being everything society expected of them. A lot of women were deeply suffering in their marriages and did not enjoy being submissive and controlled by their spouses. The reason that you have this romanticised image of marriage in the past is that few women back then were brave enough to speak out openly about what was going on behind closed doors. Men, being the bread -winners, felt entitled and often abused the power they had over women, simply because they were physically stronger and financially independent.

 

Many women, especially those that were financially dependent on their husbands, were forced to put up with lots of abuse, both physical and mental, simply because they did not have the financial means to support themselves and their children. They were also expected to look the other way when their spouses had mistresses. Divorce carried a stigma that was anathema to many women. Women were expected to be submissive,compliant and docile, happy little domesticated Stepford wives, who were not allowed to show the resentment they often harbored towards their spouses.

 

If you were to talk to some of these women today, you might be in for a shock. I hear many 8o year old women today admit that they were afraid to speak up for their rights.

 

Things started to change when women were fianlly afforded a better education which in turn enabled them to join the job market. This paved the way for a life based on equal opportunities as men. Women now had an option whether to stay or leave in a marriage. To me, this is agood thing. No one should feel obligated to remain married. Rather, they should want to remain married.

 

I used to watch Leave it to Beaver and the Harriet Family or whatever. Everything was made out to be so PERFECT about marriage and family life. It was a all a part of the "American Dream" and we all know what happened to that.

Edited January 27, 2008 by marlena
spelling and grammar

[Ariadne]

Yeah,

 

The mess that women got themselves into now with the women's "liberation" (gosh) movement. They have to:

 

~ Have a great body

 

~ A great career

 

~ Work full-time

 

~ Porn star performance and technique in bed

 

~ Take care of the home

 

~ Raise the children

 

~ Keep the man's needs and wants satisfied

 

------

 

This is so idiotic. What were they thinking?

[ElvenPriestess]

Yeah,

 

The mess that women got themselves into now with the women's "liberation" (gosh) movement. They have to:

 

~ Have a great body

 

~ A great career

 

~ Work full-time

 

~ Porn star performance and technique in bed

 

~ Take care of the home

 

~ Raise the children

 

~ Keep the man's needs and wants satisfied

 

------

 

This is so idiotic. What were they thinking?

 

To be superman, but not a man. How exhausting a thought it is. To keep up with all that.

[Woggle]

I prefer the Clair and Cliff huxtable model. She was an strong, intelligent and successful woman but she wasnt some manhating, nagging harpy that treated her husband like crap.

 

Too many marriages today follow the Everybody loves Raymond model where a man is married to shrieking witch who is always mad and he is too much of a wimp to stand up for himself.

[HokeyReligions]

2.) Look out for you, You make your own happiness, if someone stands in your way of that happiness it's time for them to be removed from your life.

 

 

Until people fully realize that the ONLY person in the way of their own happiness is THEMSELVES they won't find what they seek. It's so easy to blame someone else or some 'outside' circumstance. But that is false logic and an easy way out.

 

Blame the other in the relationship. Blame the job or the boss, or some friend or family. Blame the government. Blame the taxes. Blame the military. Blame the republicans. Blame the democrats. Blame hollywood. Blame, blame, blame. There is no blame, there is only personal responsibility. We are accountable to ourselves for our happiness. I am happy with my husband. He is not responsible for my happiness - I choose to be happy with him. He's an intregral part of my happiness, but its still up to me. My sharing my life with him and taking part in his life is a choice, my choice, and it makes me happy.

 

Your above statement contradicts itself. If we are responsible for our own happiness removing another person is not going to change it. If you are not happy in a relationship - remove yourself from the relationship, don't give the other person the power to 'make' yourself happy.

[Trialbyfire]

Yeah,

 

The mess that women got themselves into now with the women's "liberation" (gosh) movement. They have to:

 

~ Have a great body

 

~ A great career

 

~ Work full-time

 

~ Porn star performance and technique in bed

 

~ Take care of the home

 

~ Raise the children

 

~ Keep the man's needs and wants satisfied

 

------

 

This is so idiotic. What were they thinking?

Is this what women have gotten themselves into or was it a joint mess created by both male and female expectations? Who do you suppose benefits from a woman working full time and meeting all male needs? Not the woman...

[marlena]

ariadne,

 

Women's Lib was not about having a great body and pornstar performance in bed. Nor was it about keeping a man's needs and wants constantly met. Quite the contrary, I'd say.

[nittygritty]

Yeah,

 

The mess that women got themselves into now with the women's "liberation" (gosh) movement. They have to:

 

~ Have a great body

 

~ A great career

 

~ Work full-time

 

~ Porn star performance and technique in bed

 

~ Take care of the home

 

~ Raise the children

 

~ Keep the man's needs and wants satisfied

 

------

 

This is so idiotic. What were they thinking?

 

 

They were thinking they wanted equality.

[OWoman]

Unfortunately, in this day-and-age, single people are also having babies at an alarming rate with all the same distractions as married people, and maybe more.

 

I'm a single parent myself, and my experience (of others, not just myself) is that single parents - because they are so dependent on their job to keep themselves and their families afloat, not having spousal support (we don't have financial aid from the state, to speak of) - work far harder than married parents. They're used to thinking on their feet and covering all bases so seldom get caught short by tonsilitis, or ballet being cancelled

 

That, coupled with the lack of maturity that comes with youth and the entitlement attitude most seem to be raised with nowadays and I don't find youngsters to be among my best and most dependable employees.

 

Nowhere did I mention age. I was assuming married or single of a similar age. And I certainly don't make the assumption that, given time, single people morph into married ones, or married people morph back into single ones, because some do, some don't, and you never can tell which will.

 

Remember, I invoked the early- to mid-20th century. In those times, most mothers stayed at home and fathers left the child-rearing to them and were nowhere near as involved in their childrens' lives as they are now.

 

Ah - sorry Curm, forgive me for missing that - I wasn't born back then :p:p in the dark ages :p:p so was just commenting on the basis of what I know. (Were the mothers safe alone at home with their kids, with all those sabre-tooth tigers prowling around outside?)

[marlena]

And you know what? I couldn't answer that. Because at the age of 20, I had no idea what I would be like or what I would want at age 30, 40, etc. I don't think anyone does

 

So true. If only we had the knowledge of today back when we we were in our twenties or thirties, we might have done thinks differently. Knowledge comes to us too late in life.

[lindya]

I do apologize for not being an analized DD.

 

Just try to compensate by getting every hair on your body removed permanently, tit implants, bleached orifices and a labioplasty. Then you have to muff dive Chelsea Clinton during her period for a joke, following which you attend a fratboy party, drink a yard of ale and cackle along like a good sport when the guys circle jerk on you.

 

After that, and in celebration of your initiation as a ladette, we'll go out for a a girly night. First we'll snog and dirty dance on the floor ito see if we can grab any of that "look! We're bi!" attention for ourselves. Then we'll have a competition to see which of us can blow the most men in one night. It'll be our own little lipstick lesbians creating happy rainbows night out, and together we'll show the world how empowered we are!

[Zolie]

Too many marriages today follow the Everybody loves Raymond model where a man is married to shrieking witch who is always mad and he is too much of a wimp to stand up for himself.

 

OMG, I couldn't stand that show, because of Debra's shrieking, bitter, angry attitude. It began to dominate the show, and was not pleasant or funny to watch. It was over the top, which ruined the intended humor. Of course, all sitcom scenarios are over the top on purpose, for the sake of humor, such as Frank's treatment of Maria, and Marie's butting in all the time, but Debra's scenes were way over the top and not funny at all.

[OWoman]

Yeah,

 

The mess that women got themselves into now with the women's "liberation" (gosh) movement. They have to:

 

~ Have a great body

 

~ A great career

 

~ Work full-time

 

~ Porn star performance and technique in bed

 

~ Take care of the home

 

~ Raise the children

 

~ Keep the man's needs and wants satisfied

 

------

 

 

That sounds like my average day - except the kids are now big enough to take care of the home (and do) and the man's needs are satisified coincidentally while satisfying my own.

 

I consider it fulfilling, rather than stressful. Wouldn't change it for anything.

[Woggle]

It was actually very realistic. Many marriages actually are like that.

[Trialbyfire]

Just try to compensate by getting every hair on your body removed permanently, tit implants, bleached orifices and a labioplasty. Then you have to muff dive Chelsea Clinton during her period for a joke, following which you attend a fratboy party, drink a yard of ale and cackle along like a good sport when the guys circle jerk on you.

 

After that, and in celebration of your initiation as a ladette, we'll go out for a a girly night. First we'll snog and dirty dance on the floor ito see if we can grab any of that "look! We're bi!" attention for ourselves. Then we'll have a competition to see which of us can blow the most men in one night. It'll be our own little lipstick lesbians creating happy rainbows night out, and together we'll show the world how empowered we are!

Lest we forget, let's snog outside the confines of a committed relationship, so we can show that we're open to the world, at large!!

[OWoman]

It was actually very realistic. Many marriages actually are like that.

 

I agree. I've seen too many that are.

 

(judging by your description. I've not seen any of those tv shows)

[Ariadne]

Hi,

 

You paint a lovely picture of what marriage was like in the past but I am afraid it is far from realistic.

 

No. I still believe it is very realistic and possible. And not at all a fantasy.

 

That is "how" things are supposed to be.

 

The "Leave it to Beaver" model was intentionally projected by a society that was geared to keep women "in their place" and was not at all, however pretty, a realistic depiction of marriage.

 

That's the problem with he feminist movement. They think that this is all a weird "plot" to make women be "happy at home"

 

Women "are" happy at home taking care of the children and the house.

 

It is not a plot. It is the ideal.

 

Marriage was romaticised for a reason and that was to perpetuate conservative value and ideals that often undermined a woman'r role in society.

 

Conservative values have been conservative values for the past 5,000 years no less. The feminist movement is only 50 years old.

 

Get some perspective.

 

A lot of women were deeply suffering in their marriages and did not enjoy being submissive and controlled by their spouses.

 

That is because some people are married to the wrong person and not to someone they are compatible with. You have to be careful about that. Know what love is, before you get married.

 

Women were expected to be submissive,compliant and docile, happy little domesticated Stepford wives, who were not allowed to show the resentment they often harbored towards their spouses.

 

I believe the Stepford wives to be the ideal.

 

Things started to change when women were fianlly afforded a better education which in turn enabled them to join the job market. This paved the way for a life based on equal opportunities as men.

 

This just made everyone stressed, and made children pay the bill.

[Ariadne]

Who do you suppose benefits from a woman working full time and meeting all male needs? Not the woman...

 

Of course.

 

And to make things worse, they made it so that people will not be able to afford a living even on a one person income.

 

All this did was to "increase the cost of living."

 

Women are now demanded and expected to work.

[Ariadne]

Women's Lib was not about having a great body and pornstar performance in bed. Nor was it about keeping a man's needs and wants constantly met. Quite the contrary, I'd say.

 

You are confused.

 

You still believe it was to liberate women.

 

All it did was to increase the demand on women to the point of them being borderline close to having a nervous breakdown.

 

Why do you think people now a days have to survive on Prozac and junk food?

[Curmudgeon]

Ah - sorry Curm, forgive me for missing that - I wasn't born back then :p:p in the dark ages :p:p so was just commenting on the basis of what I know. (Were the mothers safe alone at home with their kids, with all those sabre-tooth tigers prowling around outside?)

 

Trained that mastodon to guard the entrance to the cave and the pterodactyl to maintain aerial surveillance and come and get me if I was needed!

[nittygritty]

Just try to compensate by getting every hair on your body removed permanently, tit implants, bleached orifices and a labioplasty. Then you have to muff dive Chelsea Clinton during her period for a joke, following which you attend a fratboy party, drink a yard of ale and cackle along like a good sport when the guys circle jerk on you.

 

After that, and in celebration of your initiation as a ladette, we'll go out for a a girly night. First we'll snog and dirty dance on the floor ito see if we can grab any of that "look! We're bi!" attention for ourselves. Then we'll have a competition to see which of us can blow the most men in one night. It'll be our own little lipstick lesbians creating happy rainbows night out, and together we'll show the world how empowered we are!

 

 

Unfortunately, this is the exaggerated truth of whats trying to be expected of young women these days.

 

Whats the expectation of women in there 30's, 40's and 50's?

 

There is confusion for men and women but the confusion is benefitting men mostly. In the sense that there are women willing to tolerate disrespectful and unequal treatment in order "to have a man".

[norajane]

I guess that what I am trying to say is that I would like to see more posters suporting someone who knows he wants out rather than flagellating him/her for wanting out. I just don't understand this "save the marriage" brigade as OW so accurately put it.

 

DO we flagellate those who KNOW they want out?

 

I've seen plenty of posts advising people to talk to a lawyer to determine how they'd fare financially in a divorce, to find out what they should be doing to make sure they can get full or joint custody of their kids, etc. Especially when someone comes on and talks about abuse, or addictions, and even infidelity.

 

I think people come to LS come to ask questions and clarify their thoughts about maybe wanting out, and are given things to think about, different perspectives, and yes, suggestions to try before walking out. Walking away is permanent and can be done at any time, so why not explore options before taking that final step? The whole concept behind a marriage commitment is to do your best to work through things rather than giving up right away during a hard time in the marriage.

 

I don't think marriages need to be saved at all costs, and frankly, I think people should be required to go to marriage counseling BEFORE they can get a legal marriage license.

 

I think too many people jump into marriage for bad reasons. Some do it because it's 'time', some because everyone else is doing it, some want babies and want the husband around to support them, some do it at the height of infatuation but have not yet developed love or any real understanding of their actual compatibility, and some do it with the thought they can easily get a divorce, which is in no way a true commitment. Far fewer people should be getting married, and they should marry when they are older and know themselves better.

[Curmudgeon]

And you're considerably younger than I am Ariadne.

 

Perhaps you'd like to be a Stepford wife but I can't imagine anything more vapid and uninteresting or unstimulating. I certainly wouldn't want a woman/wife who "performs" on command, doesn't have her own mind and opinions and can't hold her own during intellectual discussions.

 

Half the fun of being married to my wife is that I'm never quite sure what I'm coming home to. There are so many facets to her it's always a toss-up! It's also quite stimulating. The sameness of Stepford would quickly pall.