Phateless Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Oh she justifies it because she said she's been reading a "sex" book and I should do my part and drop the phone when she's ready for it. She also says she's love starved. It's crazy because I gave her a list of things I've always done, plus things that I've done recently and am trying to do on a daily basis to let her know that I love her. She says it's not enough and that I need to do more. Unfortunately these episodes just put more distance between us. I tell her that but she won't back down. She's hoping that by playing these games, I'll work even harder... She is an idiot. My ex gave me the exact same routine, telling me I didn't do anything for her when I did worlds for her. If she's so convinced that a MC will agree with her, GO! It will be all the more significant when they don't. You should tell her that you are sick of her twisted mind games and that you're leaving for someone who's not insane. Some people tend to emotionalize, not rationalize, and then look for logical reasons to explain their emotions. Any attempt you make to reason with this woman will get you nowhere. Her "reasons" will make no sense if you logic it out the whole way and if you call her on it she will become furious and switch her story. It's maddening. My ex and I used to go around in circles for hours this way. Link to post Share on other sites
Mustang Sally Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Wow. That is some serious (condescending, sophomoric, unjustified) manipulation. Sorry you are going through that, LankyGuy. I would agree with others who suggest a mediator. Because if she is this into the whole "testing" thing, then I doubt she can be objective enough in a discussion with you to admit her own contributions to the difficulties that you two are having. Probably, she just views it as her always (or most always) being RIGHT and you always (or most always) being WRONG. I don't have any hard data on this, but I would be willing to bet that in the "classic" sexless marriage (wife withholding sex from husband), this "wife thinks she's always right" mentality prevails. I know it did for me, back when I was living it. I feel for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Kasan Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 LankyGuy-- I am really wondering about the dynamics of your marriage--in your other thread, you said that your wife gets angry if you don't compliment her. It seemed to me that you have gone out of your way to make this woman happy. There was discussion about control issues, and someone suggested some books to read. Did you have the opportunity to read any of these books and are you still going through your "rough patch"? What has changed for you in your marriage? Have things gotten better other than her tests? Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 My wife actually feels that I wear the pants in the relationship, believe it or not. What makes you think this? Has she told you that or do you see it in her eyes? Big Difference. Most wives will say that their husband "wears the pants," but this is not necessarily how they feel or act. If she is pulling these little games, then she thinks this is how she gets her way. She may have seen this happen with her folks or someone else, but it does not build honesty. How you respond to the games is how you show if you are assertive. It is not about who reigns supreme in the house, it is about the amount of self-esteem and self-respect you have for yourself. The more she feels she dominates you, the more she loses respect for you. While it sounds harsh, "getting a spine" is necessary. Marriage should not be a battle....it should be a friendship and partnership. When one feels that the other is not "strong enough," then he or she will keep playing games to either prove that feeling correct or may do so in hopes of refuting that feeling. My guess is that she does not like it that you try to win her games. She would be more respecting of you if you avoided her games. You would have gained more ground if you ignored her. Yes, she may have been mad and said that is why you are not getting sex, but it would have also told her that she is important but not your ruler. How you held her off is more important than giving in. As a friend of mine said once about another friend," It would be worth a couple of sleepless nights alone on the couch if he were assertive to her, but he seems to be more concerned about sleeping in bed tonight that where he will be in five years." Sad to say, the friend to whom he was referring is now divorced and his wife is remarried, She never respected him for his lack of assertiveness. I want to repeat what NoraJane asked: Does this mean you have not had sex for 11 years? Or does this mean it has been infrequent? Has sex been an issue of manipulation? IMO, she never meant to have sex with you unless you literally hung up the phone in mid sentence. She used the two minutes as a way to avoid it. She feels love-starved because what she needs as love is not realistic. She is picking points out of the marriage books to reinforce her selfishness. It seems that she is testing you not as a way to see if she is loved but as a way to see if you have respect for yourself. I am all for the MC, but you need to choose the person together. And after going for a couple of times, if the MC does not side with her, expect that she will no longer like that counselor and want a new one. While you may not be telling us the whole story, there does indeed seem to be a major problem between the two of you that can end your marriage if you do not get help. Having seen what tests of manipulation can do to a marriage, I may be biased, but it seems that this is a replay of that marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 This caused a fight that she wouldn't let go, and caused her to go to bed angry without saying "I love you" to me. Sorry to say Lanky but I don't think she does. I don't think she's capable of loving someone other than herself and I don't think she will be until she gets help for her issues. You can try to resolve them in MC but this is not how "normal" people behave and IMO it's a symptom of something deeper within herself. That you've been enabling, in your own way, and so when you stand up to her and break the pattern she resents you for it. Have you read wikipedia's description of NPD - it contains an interesting sentence about "co-narcissists" which fits the picture you paint of what she wants you to be. (Take a look if you haven't - search "narcissistic personality disorder" on wikipedia) Link to post Share on other sites
Trialbyfire Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Trialbyfire, I do love her and she does have good qualities. This isn't just picking out a bad quality, though. This caused a fight that she wouldn't let go, and caused her to go to bed angry without saying "I love you" to me. I'm not nit picking on this one. Is saying the words "I love you" daily, key to maintaining your relationship? I'm guessing that there's two parties here, manipulating and controlling, but both in different ways. Can't the two of you start to communicate and resolve things effectively, instead of reverting to childish cold fronts and tantrums? Either piss or get off the pot Lankyguy! Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Oh yeah, she's manipulating you. Kind of setting the bar to see how high you'll jump and she expects YOU to jump (or shall I say HUMP) when she says do it NOW. It's controlling and childish. And it's stupid. She's getting off on it too and using it against you when you fail to meet her expectation. If I pulled that crap on my H, he would have every right to be pissed at me. Being on the phone helping his bro through something and me standing there telling him to get off the phone so he could come f**k me? Can we say selfish? Link to post Share on other sites
Je Ne Regrette Rien Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Would your W actually want to be married to someone who dumped his brother in need on the phone just so he could get his rocks off? Tell her you past the test because your a good person and you know that she wants to be married to a good person and not someone selfish. And tell her that you have a little test for her...next time she tries a test on you she's failed the "Is my Wife manipulative?" test! Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Delivery of the message may have been insensitive, but I still think she secretly craves seeing you stand up to her and say no. Not that you should be controlling, but she's trying to find our where your boundaries are and what will make you defend them. Why do you have to fit her rules about what is affectionate and loving? You are trying to prove to her that you're following her rules, when really, like others have said, why even play her game? This is sort of like when one child needles another to see how much they can get away with. What is the real test? To see if the other child will back down obediently? Or to get the other child to react and stick up for himself and maybe even poke back? I think this is really what she wants even though she might not know it. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I agree. She's convinced that a MC will see her side of the story, though. I told her that anyone she talks to will say she's wrong. When I was at the end of my marriage, we went to counseling....when the MC didn't see my side of the story I flipped out and stormed out of the counseling session, never to return. Needless to say, the marriage ended. MC will either be a serious wake up call for her, or it will signify the end of the relationship....and to be honest, it's up to her to decide which is which. Link to post Share on other sites
Phateless Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 This chick is insane. Run. I stand by my original statement, even more so, with all the new information. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LankyGuy Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 OK, there is a lot to reply to here. Let me see if I can address everything. Yes, she needs more compliments, etc or gets very upset at times. I try to make her happy and it never seems like I do anything right and it never seems like enough. Anyways...JamesM...yes she tells me that she thinks I have all the upper hand in the relationship...since she's always clamoring for attention and I won't "give it"...I really don't think she wants me to "stand up" against her...she just wants me to act and be the way she wants. I can be assertive, but she doesn't want that...she just wants control...a Stepford husband....and I've enabled it for 14 years. She definitely wants me to pass these tests...without a doubt. It's a training exercise to create the perfect husband for herself. Sex has just been infrequent for 10-11 years. Can easily go 2-3 months without it...always an excuse or that I'm not treating her nice enough...etc...could be construed as manipulation She's working it and other things (name calling and screaming). Things got into gear when I basically told her that sometimes I think the marriage will never work. She doesn't care if I have respect for myself...honestly. She just wants me to pass the tests so that I'll perform better the next time around...I'm sure about this one. She makes that very clear... Kasan, we haven't gotten to read the books that were brought up in the last thread. Things have improved though. She has stopped the screaming and name calling and has apologized profusely for it...finally after 6 months of pleading. She's also started reading and doing the exercises in a "return sex to marriage" book...we did have one day of good sex since then...so she's trying. I've been continuing to do the things she needs (notes, compliments, etc)...except when things like this come up....then it's a huge setback. OWoman, yes I've enabled it and once I step outside my "role" she resents me. I'm coming to the realization that it's possible that we may never have a functional marriage. I'm pretty normal and would love to have a normal relationship. I'll check out NPD...thanks. OK, I have to run... I want to address the rest of the comments later this evening...gotta tutor an Algebra student after work. Thanks... Link to post Share on other sites
annieo Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 She sounds like an insecure game-player. She make a big deal over non-issues. She uses sex as bait, another way to control you. Yikes! I am currently fighting the passive urge to let bigger issues (point-blank lying on the part of my h) just go to keep the peace around here. Does she actually come out and say, "That was a test and you failed."? OMG, she must really feel like you are going to put up with anything she dishes out. Link to post Share on other sites
Zolie Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 In all the years I have been reading relationship forums and listened to other people's stories, I don't think I have ever heard one like this. I really feel for you, LankyGuy. At first glance, she sounds really self-centered, immature, and hyper-something. But, at second glance, I have to wonder what the heck has made her behave this way? There has to be a thought process going on here, for her to do these things. It sounds like she is feeling insecure due to something she feels you are not providing to her, based on her perceptions of what Love should be. I remember when I first became engaged to my husband, I unconsciously and silently tested him to see if he passed all of my personal perceptions of what Love is. I didn't feel I had the right to demand he do the things I wanted, but deep down I wanted him to do them, which I believed would prove his love for me, based on my definition of Love. Yeah, and guess what? He failed a lot of those silent tests, because not only did he not know he was being tested, he didn't do certain things that I thought meant Love. He did other things, though, so even though the marriage had a lot of problems including serious sexual problems, I did know he loved me, in the best way he could. (at least at first, but that's a whole 'other thread, lol) Do keep us posted on your story. I'm really curious as to the outcome of this one. (I hope that doesn't make me sound callous and voyeuristic, lol) Link to post Share on other sites
Author LankyGuy Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 Is saying the words "I love you" daily, key to maintaining your relationship? I'm guessing that there's two parties here, manipulating and controlling, but both in different ways. Can't the two of you start to communicate and resolve things effectively, instead of reverting to childish cold fronts and tantrums? Either piss or get off the pot Lankyguy! Has nothing to do with it...it's not a middle school romance...although it feels like it at times. It's a gauge for how upset she is if she won't say "I love you" after I do...then she's very angry. She went to bed angry because I didn't apologize...I don't think I should when I know I'm not wrong. I've done that for years and it's only helped to further damage my marriage. She came home and acted like nothing happened today...maybe she did some thinking. I didn't even bring it up...no point. No, we can't communicate effectively, obviously. I don't put up cold fronts or tantrums....I just deal with them, defuse them. I don't play games... Yeah, I probably should just get off the pot. The chance that we can make this work is looking more and more grim. You were probably right in one of your previous posts that we don't have any compatibility. It's becoming an exercise in futility. It's wearing me down now. Link to post Share on other sites
Nemo Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Yeah, I probably should just get off the pot. Drugs will always amplify your mood swings. It would be a great idea to get yourself clean, and then reevaluate your relationship with a fresh perspective. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 She really doesn't get it. It's a shame...I've been trying to deal with this stuff since we were kids and it's always the same thing. You two grew up together? Did you date other people before you got married? Maybe neither of you 'gets' how to be in a relationship with a partner - you're stuck in the same behavior patterns with each other you had as kids. Maybe that's why she feels so free to be annoying as hell, and you let her - you feel like family, dysfunctional family that doesn't like each other too much but, is family after all, and you can't do anything about family. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LankyGuy Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 WWIU...thanks for the input. Je Ne...well...yes. She told me that my brother would have been happy to hear the reason why she wanted me off the phone. Yes, she wants to be married to someone who puts her FIRST...period. storyrider...perhaps...but I think she really just wants me to respond in the ways that she deems the perfect husband should. She wants me to be one of the Sex and the City guys that melt her heart. Instead, I'm like Aiden after Carrie cheated on him with Mr. Big...No, I don't watch it much but she asked me to watch a scene showing how he treats her...basically she said I treat her the same way. I said..."Yeah, she hurt him...he's disconnected. That's what happens..." She didn't get it. blind_otter...our last trip to the MC was some sort of wake up call and you pretty much called the outcome. She didn't actually storm out but she was "this" close... She wouldn't go back.. I'll go to another MC...she's set on finding someone that will see her side of the story...she's convinced that a male counselor cannot. Doesn't matter to me who we go to...still the same story. annieo...yes she'll say..."That was a test...you failed it..." She said it yesterday during this thing. She'll then tell me what I should have done to pass the test...it feels pretty demeaning at times. zolie...she has some things she needs to deal with. She pretty much refuses to admit she has self esteem issues and blames them on me. She'll never go to a counselor to address that...she still believes I should bear that burden as her husband. We talked about this in another thread. I'll update as it seems relevant, I guess. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LankyGuy Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 Drugs will always amplify your mood swings. It would be a great idea to get yourself clean, and then reevaluate your relationship with a fresh perspective. Uh..you're joking, right? The pot she was talking about is the kind we piss in... Link to post Share on other sites
Author LankyGuy Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 You two grew up together? Did you date other people before you got married? Maybe neither of you 'gets' how to be in a relationship with a partner - you're stuck in the same behavior patterns with each other you had as kids. Maybe that's why she feels so free to be annoying as hell, and you let her - you feel like family, dysfunctional family that doesn't like each other too much but, is family after all, and you can't do anything about family. Well, no. We had just turned 18 and 19 when we started dating...now that I'm entering mid life at age 33, I refer to that age as "kids". We each had a high school LTR...but that was high school...not the same. You may be right in you assumption. It does feel like we're stuck with each other at times...like family. Link to post Share on other sites
Nemo Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 The pot she was talking about is the kind we piss in... Dude, that's just not right. I mean, I enjoy the odd golden shower, but that is a bit whacked-out. I hope you let it dry out completely before you try to inhale. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Well, no. We had just turned 18 and 19 when we started dating...now that I'm entering mid life at age 33, I refer to that age as "kids". We each had a high school LTR...but that was high school...not the same. You may be right in you assumption. It does feel like we're stuck with each other at times...like family. You would probably be shocked to find out what a healthy, grown-up relationship is like. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LankyGuy Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 I think you're right. I was just thinking about this today while I was at work. With the reading I've done and the observation of some of my friends' relationships I do think mine is far from a normal, healthy one. I have friends who have ended marriages that weren't nearly as bad as mine....they were just miserable. Personally, I think I can handle a grown-up relationship...especially if it were with someone who would also be after the same. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 we women would like to see a man who stand his ground firmly:love:, not one who is easily manipulated, well, a little maybe fun, but not too much Link to post Share on other sites
Author LankyGuy Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 IMO, only confident women want that. Just as only confident men can handle an independent woman... Link to post Share on other sites
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