Little "tests" - Fair or manipulation?

[Zolie]

A couple of months ago she told me that she can't believe how little common sense I have for being such a smart person...maybe she's right...

 

Now, see, this is the damage she has wrought on you!

 

I am itching here. This subject - wives' short fuses regarding their husbands' lack of common sense - is one I have analyzed many times, but more so in the past couple of months, even before I found LS. A while back I had a lengthy conversation with friends on this subject. Every one one of them said they had at least one female family member or had a female friend who did this to their husbands. And *most* of them said they themselves were often irritated at their husband's seemingly lack of common sense - but that they usually just rolled their eyes to themselves, and tried not to criticize their husbands.

 

I know I used to get irritated as hell at my ex for doing what I considered to be dumb ass things, but I never, ever, ever spoke down to him or harangued him or yelled at him. I usually just sucked it up and kept silent, because most of the time I recognized he was not doing anything wrong - he just wasn't doing something the way *I* thought he should be doing it.

 

Your story of the desk mat reminded me of another story. I was at an arts and craft show one time and happened upon a jewelry booth selling silver charms. A woman and her husband, probably in their 40s, were manning the booth. I asked to see a particular charm, and the man turned to the woman to ask her where those particular charms were stored. She blew up at him, telling him they were where they *always* were, and why the hell couldn't he remember that? She ducked under the table to retrieve the box, muttering the whole time that if he couldn't be more help than that, then he should just have stayed home.

 

His demeanor was such that it was clear this was a pattern with them, and he mumbled something about just trying to do the right thing. I ached for him. He looked so dejected and beaten.

 

This happened about 8 years ago, and I STILL cringe and even get a little teary for that poor man. It hurts me to see any human being belittled like that. I was appalled at her behavior and politely declined giving them the sale, because I did not care to spend my money with a woman like that.

 

But, I am perplexed by this behavior. What causes it??? In this case, was that man more of a hindrance to her than a help, so it caused her to be justifiably highly irritated with him? Had she really shown him where each charm was stored over and over again, and he just never seemed to remember? In his defense, there were hundreds of charms, so any inventory system must have been complex. But, in her defense, she was able to find the right one immediately, so the system couldn't have been that difficult to master. So perhaps she was tired of him acting like like a child and needing to be told every single time?

 

But, whether she was justified in her irritation or not, she was NOT justified in her treatment towards her husband. It was heartbreaking to witness.

 

I guess that's why I'm so moved by your story, Lanky. Everything you have described I have witnessed other women doing, and I just don't understand it! It does seem though, that the only way to fix it is to figure out where it's coming from. Do you really lack common sense, according to her definition of common sense, or is she just expecting waaaaay too much from you? (I vote for the latter)

 

I hope the counselor can help, but I don't think your wife will ever see that she is wrong here. My grandmother never has. Over the years, on the rare occasion that I have reminded her she is being too hard on my grandfather, she would retort that *I* don't have to live with him, so I don't see how irritating he is. But, she's wrong. I know each of them very, very well, and I know he is just being who he is, and she is just being waaaay too intolerant of what she calls his lack of common sense.

 

Sorry to be so long winded, but my mind is whirling here. What can we do to solve this problem? It seems a lot of women feel this way about their husbands, even the ones who don't criticize their husbands openly. Is this just a case of gender contrasts getting under our skin, which we are all guilty of, but some of us handle better than others?

[LankyGuy]

My wife does NOT want an assertive husband. She thinks I'm too assertive since I go ahead and do what I want to do most of the time. She feels like I always have the upper hand and that I'm in control. She was pissed that I wanted a beer, but I drank it. Of course, I had to tell her that I drink a lot of water at work for her to let it go. So I lost that one, I guess....but to her, I won because I drank the beer.

 

You're right though. I can't do what i want. She made me quit guitar lessons that I had wanted to take for 20 years, and begged for me to quit a spanish class I was taking at the university I work at. I stayed in it, but I could not study in her presence....only on my lunch hour, before work, and late at night after she went to bed (shhh!)...we negotiated that. She's still pissed that I stayed in the class till the end. She said that if the relationship meant anything to me I wouldn't do those things. Then she said she worried that I resented her for making me quit. Of course I did! The other day she told me that if she saw me studying Spanish on my own she'd burn the book...I haven't tested that one yet. If I do that before finishing the Dr. Phil book there will be hell to pay.

 

Yes, her Dad is pretty laid back. Yes, her Mom gets pissed when he orders a beer at a restaurant. I've never seen him drink more than 2 and she gets pissed every time. My wife even thinks it's ridiculous...of course, he's not her husband. OTOH, my father in-law does explode once in a while and slam his fist down saying "I'm 55 years old and I work hard. If I want to order a goddamn beer I'm gonna do it!" Of course, then she won't speak to him the rest of the night.

 

I've had individual counseling twice. About 10 years ago and 1.5 years ago. I learned a lot about myself with the first one...the second one was directly involved with the relationship. It didn't help much because we were not getting down to the real problem...we never really let him know all the issues in the marriage. It was all focused on what I was doing wrong...I never spoke up.

[Zolie]

She made me quit guitar lessons that I had wanted to take for 20 years, and begged for me to quit a spanish class I was taking at the university I work at.

 

Why did she not want you to take guitar lessons and spanish classes?

[swansong519]

Wow...what a story....

 

I just have 2 things I would like to add, if I may...

 

1st...re: testing..... I think "testing" early on in a relationship is fine...but...if your prospective partner fails your tests then you need to get out...let them go...it is so terribly unfair to then stay with them knowing they don't "measure up" so you can torment them for ever.

 

2nd.... Many years ago I heard a saying that has shaped my dating/relationship experiences...

 

"Treat a woman like a lady, until she stops acting like one."

 

And Brother, your wife stopped acting like a lady a loooong time ago.

 

Good luck to you...you have my best wishes.

[LankyGuy]

Lovelybird. Yeah, I was picked on a few times as a kid...I never fought though...kinda like the boy you sat next to. My mom taught me to be non confrontational...no dad in the picture to say "If someone pushes you, push them back!" My mom taught us to run from fights. It probably caused some damage...I happened to marry an aggressive woman and it's just a bad combination.

 

You mad some good points. I've been reading a book about being a "Nice guy" and it's helped a bit. For the last couple of weeks, I've told my wife that I'm not longer going to take some of this crap. She really doesn't like it, but I have to hold my ground and be strong. If she truly cannot handle me having a backbone then we can't be married.

 

Zolie, thanks for your words. She hasn't made me feel that I have no common sense...I know I do. What I was kinda getting at is that the fact that I've put up with this for so long might indicate that I actually don't.

 

You hit it, though. My wife said the common sense thing when I was parking for a yard sale and I didn't park in the spot that she would have... She said "I would have parked there" then went on with the common sense thing. She often says "I would have done..." so I say, "Well I'm not you...and I didn't." But then I get the "Of course, you don't do anything that I want" and we're back to square one. When I stand up for myself she just takes it as an attack...

 

I can't believe my wife really thinks I have no common sense. She's blown away by how many things I know how to do and my knowledge of lots of different things... But yes...if I do something differently than she would...then I'm stupid.

 

So, Zolie, your story about the older people at the craft show...yes, I can see that in our relationship at times.. I'd say my wife's parents are exactly like that.

[norajane]

Yes, her Dad is pretty laid back. Yes, her Mom gets pissed when he orders a beer at a restaurant. I've never seen him drink more than 2 and she gets pissed every time. My wife even thinks it's ridiculous...of course, he's not her husband. OTOH, my father in-law does explode once in a while and slam his fist down saying "I'm 55 years old and I work hard. If I want to order a goddamn beer I'm gonna do it!" Of course, then she won't speak to him the rest of the night.

...

 

So, Zolie, your story about the older people at the craft show...yes, I can see that in our relationship at times.. I'd say my wife's parents are exactly like that.

 

So it's clear where she learned her relationship dynamics and expectations. She may not even have a clue that there's anything wrong with that. She grew up with it; it's all she knows. Just like your child(ren) will do...

[LankyGuy]

Why did she not want you to take guitar lessons and spanish classes?

 

Because they cut into my time..."our" time. Not a lot though. I was actually weeks ahead in the class until we started fighting a lot in October. Then I got behind and had to spend a couple of Sundays (almost all day) doing the Spanish homework...this made her really mad because she wanted to spend the time with me. She wanted me to quit, but I had a high A, had spent $700 on it, and really wanted to do it. So I said "NO" many many times and stayed in and got my A+ working on it until 2 in the morning while she was sleeping. She's now saying that the Spanish class may have ruined our marriage because I chose to stay in it at a pivotal time in the relationship after she asked me to quit. She told me over and over that I proved to her that *****in' Spanish was more important to me than her.

 

Guitar lessons were only 1/2 hr per week and they're 5 minutes away...but she made me quit in October. I had been going for 10 months and she asked me every month how much longer I'd be taking lessons...she didn't like the $80/month that they cost in the first place. Then when things were getting bad in the fall, she forced me to quit. The instructor was bummed...I was his favorite student. I was bummed and on that Halloween night that she made me go in there and tell them I'm quitting, before leaving, I lost it and slammed my cell phone into a picture, breaking my phone and the picture glass. Very unlike me to do that. She rubs it in my face still.

 

I don't know when I'll ever get to go back to guitar or Spanish now with a baby on the way...that's why I took them last year in the first place.

[LankyGuy]

So it's clear where she learned her relationship dynamics and expectations. She may not even have a clue that there's anything wrong with that. She grew up with it; it's all she knows. Just like your child(ren) will do...

 

 

Yes, I've seen it for years. And I've told her that. She hates her parents relationship and says she doesn't want one like that. But she still does the same things her mom does despite the damage it does to her husband and the relationship. It's just so ingrained in her...

 

I do NOT want my future children to see a relationship like this. I told her last summer that this has to stop. I've told her that I'd rather raise them with us separate than with us in a bad relationship. The tough part is that she thinks it will be great if I just do what she wants. That sucks... I'm my own freakin' person and I feel like she resents me for that.

[LankyGuy]

One other thing that really bugged me about the Spanish course and the guitar lessons was that she told me that these things are "really just nonsense". She said that they're basically a waste of time...no better than watching sports...which I don't do at all. That made me think that she really doesn't get me...learning things like that is important to me. I'm not here just to make money and do things for her.

 

She only wants me to spend my time on things that are productive...for her.

[Zolie]

She hasn't made me feel that I have no common sense...I know I do. What I was kinda getting at is that the fact that I've put up with this for so long might indicate that I actually don't.

 

Oh! I see, now! LOL, I know this isn't a funny situation, but that is quite humorous/ironic to think about it that way.

 

You hit it, though. My wife said the common sense thing when I was parking for a yard sale and I didn't park in the spot that she would have... She said "I would have parked there" then went on with the common sense thing. She often says "I would have done..." so I say, "Well I'm not you...and I didn't." But then I get the "Of course, you don't do anything that I want" and we're back to square one. When I stand up for myself she just takes it as an attack...

 

This is starting to make more sense to me, now. I have silently thought similar things before, with my ex. He would turn down a certain road to go somewhere, and in my mind it would be much shorter/faster/better to go down another road. But, like I said in the other post, I would realize that he was just doing it his way, and he could drive just as well as I could and could get us there just fine, without commentary from me.

 

I'm no saint, mind you, so it was often *very* hard for me to keep my mouth shut when I thought he could/should be doing something better. But, I picked my battles, and let the inconsequential things go.

 

Something just occurred to me. This is going to apply to me, but it might be what your wife is also doing. In analyzing why I would want to try to tell my ex to do something a certain way, it was usually in regards to something that I felt *I* needed to be on top of, completely aware of, etc - or everything would fall apart. I am in no way a control freak, but certain situations make me highly uncomfortable if I do not have a handle on the situation. So, I would feel a strong urge to "control" every tiny aspect of the situation, including such things as which road to take so we wouldn't be late.

 

It sounds like your wife may be doing this also. As you were pulling to the curb to park at the yard sale, her mind was instantly surveying the situation, and seeing which was the best place to park. The instant she spotted what she considered the "right" spot - which would make the whole experience easy and smooth and "right" - her mind was made up that that was the only place to park that made any sense at all. And when you did not follow what she considered a sensible path, she was compelled to speak up.

 

SHE is the one who needs counseling to see this pattern in herself. I really think she could benefit by recognizing this intense need she has to control every tiny action of the day.

 

I probably shouldn't be offering psychological theories here, since I'm not one, lol, and since I don't know her. But, I feel like I DO know her thought pattern here. Takes one to know one, as they say. I just feel lucky that I recognized my own tendencies to do this, and have been able to reign it in.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Zolie

[LankyGuy]

 

It sounds like your wife may be doing this also. As you were pulling to the curb to park at the yard sale, her mind was instantly surveying the situation, and seeing which was the best place to park. The instant she spotted what she considered the "right" spot - which would make the whole experience easy and smooth and "right" - her mind was made up that that was the only place to park that made any sense at all. And when you did not follow what she considered a sensible path, she was compelled to speak up.

 

 

YES! This is exactly what the situation was. I was driving that day because here wrists were hurting her...it was her car and I was trying to help her. I ended up giving the keys back to her and said "I don't care, you drive if I can't do it right". I think that day ended up being REALLY bad where she almost left me the next morning...because I'm so "grumpy" around her among other things.

 

And yes, the way you described your thought patterns sound just like hers. If we're running late for something and I'm driving...oh man, it's bad. I'm just backing out of the driveway and she's telling me to go faster already. So I end up putting it in drive and almost laying a patch in the cul-de-sac to prove a point. Drives me nuts!

 

I've suggested that she go to counseling to work on her self esteem issues and she's not open to it. She's told me that I am miserable around her and that maybe I should go on Prozac...some nerve. Man, I am gonna need it if it stays like this much longer...

[Zolie]

So tell me, how is your sex life with her? Does her behavior make your libido take a nose dive? Do you find yourself not wanting to have sex with her at all, especially on a bad day when she has been particularly antagonistic - but also on the good days, is the residual anger you are feeling towards her enough to dampen your sex drive?

 

Here is another thought for you. I was treated for clinical depression many years ago, and my doctor explained that one of the symptoms I had - high anxiety and irritability - was a rare but very clear symptom for some clinically depressed patients. Only about 10% of patients exhibit this particular symptom. Perhaps your wife is suffering from this, too. My treatment cured me of the depression and the anxiety and irritability, and the need to "control" my surroundings down to the minutest detail.

 

Gosh, I wish your wife would go to counseling...

[LankyGuy]

Well, I actually had a thread on here a month or so ago about that. Sex has been nearly non-existent for around 10 years. She had no interest in it and says I don't treat her well enough to want to do it. My sex drive is always there, but yeah when we have a bad day I'm not very interested it...too much begging and drama anyways. I'm always shot down. But she is working on it...it took 4 months of me making an issue of it. Finally she got it and is making some effort. We've had sex on two different days in the last 2 weeks ...usually it's a month to three months between sex so it's a big difference. And she seems into it. A book that she read seems to have helped her views on it...she thinks it's "bad" (no she wasn't abused, just sheltered).

 

Depression? It's possible, but she's been this way for a long time. Now she was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis 5 years ago and cannot seem to get out of the "why me" phase. When I suggest that she may be depressed about it or that she may want to talk to a counselor about it, she flies of the handle. I suggested it the other night and she said "now that really pisses me off." She thinks I did not support her when she was first diagnosed...she thinks I brushed her off and says that she lost a lot of respect for me since then. She thinks it's why our relationship is so bad now. I really don't think I blew her off....I don't think she handled it well at all, though...but it is a crappy and painful disease... I don't know if she'll ever go to counseling...she's pretty stubborn and relies on me for that kind of support. We'll see what the MC says when we talk to him together.

Edited February 3, 2008 by LankyGuy

[Woggle]

I would stand up to her and risk a few sleepless nights on the couch. If that doesn't worse tell her that you can't live like this forever and if all options fail tell her you leave. Gove her that jolt of reality that you will not put up with this forever. If a child were not involved I would tell you to leave and cut your losses but you have a child on the way and she seems like the type of woman that will do everything in her power to keep you from being a father. Go back and apply again for the guitar lessons and tell her you are doing it whether she wants you to or not. She doesn't own you and has no right to tell you what to do.

[Zolie]

I have to admit I was asking about the sex thing, because I wondered if your desire for her dropped because of her behavior - like my ex husband's did. His libido was practically non-existent and I could write a book on the many, many excuses he gave me over the years. One of those excuses was that he didn't feel like making love with me when we had been arguing earlier in the day over something he thought was ridiculous to argue over (never mind that it might have been an important subject to me)

 

So, hearing you say your sex drive is just fine, despite your wife's behavior - which I firmly believe is 10 times worse than mine ever was, since I learned to reign mine in - is just one more line of proof to me that his libido was just too low and he wasn't willing to address it (which is 90% of why the marriage ended)

 

I wonder why your wife would be pissed off that you suggested counseling that might help her deal with her illness? Why on earth would that offend her? You only suggested it to help her. Sheesh...

[norajane]

I wonder why your wife would be pissed off that you suggested counseling that might help her deal with her illness? Why on earth would that offend her? You only suggested it to help her. Sheesh...

 

She doesn't think there's any reason for her to see a counselor - she doesn't think she doing anything wrong, everything would be fine if only Lankyguy would do things right...

 

She doesn't think she has an illness, so for him to suggest there's something wrong with her makes her angry.

[Zolie]

She doesn't think there's any reason for her to see a counselor - she doesn't think she doing anything wrong, everything would be fine if only Lankyguy would do things right...

 

She doesn't think she has an illness, so for him to suggest there's something wrong with her makes her angry.

 

No, the illness I was referring to was not her psychological one, but rather her rheumatoid arthritis. He suggested she see a counselor to help her deal with her anger that she has it, and she got mad at him for suggesting it.

[LankyGuy]

Woggle, good points. If I sign up for guitar, she will take it as me giving up on the relationship since she asked me to quit lessons to focus on the marriage. She'd probably leave if I did that. It would be A LOT of drama.

 

Zolie, I have a high sex drive. She can be mean and I can still have sex with her. She still has nice boobs and all that other stuff ;-) Plus, it's so rare that we have sex that I'm usually up and ready to bat right away.

 

Counseling...yes the rheumatoid arthritis thing. She things she's tough and feels that she can handle it on her own. She doesn't want to "give in" and admit that she's "weak" and needs a counselor. That's my take on it anyways...she's used the term "weak" before for many things including depression and caffeine or cigarette addiction.

[OWoman]

Woggle, good points. If I sign up for guitar, she will take it as me giving up on the relationship since she asked me to quit lessons to focus on the marriage. She'd probably leave if I did that. It would be A LOT of drama.

 

Seems like a choice, then - give up on yourself, or give up on the marriage. She's put you in an untenable position.

 

Lanky it seems she doesn't want YOU in the marriage, she wants some nameless faceless personality-less slave. And she'll either bludgeon you into being "it", or die trying. I guess it's your call how much more of it you're prepared to take.

[wizer]

If you don't put your foot down you will become like those mindless zombie husbands who seem to disappear, all their friends and relatives are calling, looking for them with no luck and then one day someone recognizes you...at a mall, standing outside a woman's clothing store, your wife's pocketbook in your hand, with a dazed look on your face, unable to speak..just waiting...for her to finish her shopping and proceed to the next store.

[OWoman]

If you don't put your foot down you will become like those mindless zombie husbands who seem to disappear, all their friends and relatives are calling, looking for them with no luck and then one day someone recognizes you...at a mall, standing outside a woman's clothing store, your wife's pocketbook in your hand, with a dazed look on your face, unable to speak..just waiting...for her to finish her shopping and proceed to the next store.

 

I'd add to this - "if you don't put your foot down SOON..."

[LankyGuy]

OWoman, I think you're right. To her, me being an independent person with some of my own goals, dreams, and "stuff" is in conflict with the marriage. To her, the more I am my own person, the less I am in the marriage.

 

Today, she pulled out a CD of mine that she decided I no longer needed. She put it among a stack of hers that she's getting rid of saying "you don't listen to this, I'm getting rid of it". But it's mine and I'll decide whether I want it or not.

 

I told her to put it back. She said no. I told her again. She said no. I told her again..she said OK, but she didn't put it back! She left it in the stack! WTF! I said "That's disrespectful to me. Put it back NOW!" She said "Fine! But you have problems getting rid of things!" and she finally put it back. These are the kinds of games I have to play...it's ridiculous.

[Blue Eyed Brain]

LankyGuy,

 

Can you run away from her? She's very controlling and doesn't seem to give you love, affection and adoration along with appreciation.

 

That's what you need in your life....... a good woman.

[wizer]

Can you run away from her?

 

Of course he can run away, didn't you read?!

 

He gets about 10 feet away and then the leash goes tight and he snaps back.

[Blue Eyed Brain]

He gets about 10 feet away and then the leash goes tight and he snaps back.

 

LankyGuy, next time you run away bring a good scissor and some tennis shoes. Run like hell and find a good woman. We are out there.