Little "tests" - Fair or manipulation?

[BentSpine]

BentSpine...Just so I'm clear, for you, my "seeing the light" and having a better future is ending the marriage?

Yes. But I don't happen to believe that I will forever burn in a warm place in afterlife would I leave a relationship.

 

What was it at the end of my post that made you second guess my "awakening"?

When you didn't leave her when she admitted trying to hurt you on purpose. Then and there you got the abuse spelled out in black and white. But you still made excuses for the abuse.

 

LankyGuy, you gave reasons that deter you from leaving. But now I ask you, like I often ask myself: "Are those the actual reasons or am I just BS-ing?" There is no possibility that you fear you won't attract another woman would you become single again?

[LankyGuy]

BentSpine. Yes, I made excuses for the abuse. She said I hurt her by not making her feel loved. She feels calling me names is the only way to hurt me because she feels that I have no emotions and no heart. She thought the verbal abuse wasn't hurting me so she continued to do it. Her point was to "get even" since I'm hurting her. She even told the MC this.

 

Regarding the reasons for not leaving. I'm not BSing. No. I'm going to sound vain but I don't think I'd have a hard time finding another woman. I'm tall, in shape, attractive, and I see how women look at me and talk to me... I don't worry about being single forever. I do worry that there are qualities that my wife has that many women do not. Unfortunately when it comes to "love" these qualities may be irrelevant (work ethic, good with my family, helps me with projects, likes cats, etc).

[sandflea]

FWIW - this kind of behavior is a major reason I just called off an engagement. I find this childish, petty, manipulative crap to be the bane of all adult relationships, and when I put myself in her shoes and try to see myself acting that way - I immediately feel ashamed.

 

I wouldn't treat her that way, and that's how I know that I deserve better. She's beautiful, and to watch her walk away will suck, but to live with her is worse.

 

Best of luck, dude. She needs to grow up.

 

SF

[SerenityX2]

But Lanky she IS using sex as a tool (leverage) Just b/c she's not saying do this and I'll do that...does not mean she's not using it as a tool.

 

You've stated before that she needs more love...more compliments and "maybe" she'll start to get in the mood. Look at what she did with the phone call....that IS using sex as a motive and a tool. She is withholding a critical component of a healthy marriage to fit HER agenda.

 

Sex should be your bonding, soul connection element that is always present in the marriage...not a sometimes stress reliever, or something to do rather than play monopoly!

 

Not that you shouldn't be able to inject spice though...for example we were set to be at a party and before we went...we really wound each other up...actually doing but not finishing...till later I'm not saying that for TMI...I'm giving you an example of how you can and should be able to bring passion back and sexy things you two should do TOGETHER...ie be on the same page. (I didn't want the prev paragraph to be construed that b/c it's bonding/connecting it's boring!...ah the joys of posting misconcepts!)

 

I honestly think you need to tell her flat out...no more games with anything...you'll no longer be a doormat and that the M is going to slip further down the slippery slope unless you BOTH equally nuture it back to where it should be....or maybe you should say sayonara.

 

I can only go by what you've put on here...and to me, it does say you are being gaslighted in that you are downplaying what is really going on...figuring it's not that bad...maybe this is normal...at least for you 2...but it's not healthy this way! You should not be the one doing the majority of the work AND acquiese to her demands/whims, something has got to give...that's why I stress the importance of you telling her you will no longer be a doormat...enough is enough...we all have breaking points.

 

Lanky, I wish you the best...if not with her, with someone. (I got out of an abusive (started as verbal but escalated) cheating marriage. Sure there are differences (such as cheating and the escalation) but the verbal abuse was there. (him thinking it was "normal" to fight passionately with name calling...then flipping it to the "woe is me"...childhood troubles etc..) it's all very damaging and demoralizing...and I've learned to recognize the signs...even if they're subtle...what she's doing is wrong. I reached my breaking point and got out. Which meant I left when my son was just shy of a year old.

 

Now I have a marriage that is seriously better than I could have dreamed of. Do we have problems? yes, mostly on the finanacial front b/c I'm back in school! and now DS is 15 y/o..so there's all that teen angst so it's stressful but we face it united and sex NEVER leaves the union...it's that bonding that keeps getting better and better, no kidding. We've learned to "fight fairly" which means coming to resolutions...putting the marriage first, working for the betterment of the union...not attacking, name calling (I realize you said this diminshed, but unfortunately once hurtful words are there...they're hard to erase from memory)...dragging everything and the cat into the arguement...these are all eroding to a healthy M.

 

I would just like to try to help others see a marriage should take nurturing...but not out and out draining "work" ...tough times yes, but on a united front....you guys gotta get on that same page...but please don't stay hostage just b/c of your fears.

 

I know I don't have all the answers..I just hope I helped just a little bit.

 

Take care Lanky

[LankyGuy]

SerenityX2...thanks. Yes, hat was helpful. Coming here gives me perspective on a lot of things. I'm glad to hear that your second marriage is so much better. It gives me hope. I think I have felt that this is just how marriage is. Everybody says how much work marriages take, and my wife reiterates this, but this one is A LOT of work.

 

We do have some good times. But the bad times are really bad. I'm sure it's damaged me in a lot of ways...and probably her as well.

[Phateless]

I think she was damaged long before you ever got to her. She has no introspective ability and does not understand that she is the one causing all the problems. I have a suggestion for you, and I'm curious what everyone thinks about this.

 

Tell her NOW, outright, that you are 100% sick of her behavior and you refuse to take it any longer. Tell her that you and her are over but that you will stay in the house until the baby is old enough for you to move out. Then flat-out refuse to indulge ANY of her little games. Just play it the way you think is fair and if she wants to flip out, let her.

[sandflea]

I think she was damaged long before you ever got to her. She has no introspective ability and does not understand that she is the one causing all the problems. I have a suggestion for you, and I'm curious what everyone thinks about this.

 

Tell her NOW, outright, that you are 100% sick of her behavior and you refuse to take it any longer. Tell her that you and her are over but that you will stay in the house until the baby is old enough for you to move out. Then flat-out refuse to indulge ANY of her little games. Just play it the way you think is fair and if she wants to flip out, let her.

 

If you go this route - and I think you should - be prepared for some EXTREMELY INTENSE head games. I'm telling you, you'd better have stones of granite to do this - because based on the kind of person she appears to be, she's gonna try ANYTHING to get under your skin, to hurt you, to make you miserable, and to make you regret your decision.

 

You think there have been tests thus far - just wait. She'll use your child against you, and tell everyone that will listen what a terrible father you are.

 

Hang in there man. I'm starting to wonder if she's related to my ex fiancee...

 

SF

[Phateless]

SF is right, it will get intense, but you have to take back your self-respect. I was with a girl for 5 years and she pulled similar crap with me. It took me a year to get over her, but now I realize that her breaking up with me was the best thing that ever happened to me. I am ashamed of myself for allowing myself to be treated that way.

 

Tell her exactly what you will and won't do for her. Treat her civilly but don't indulge any stupid requests. If you don't like being around the house, don't. In fact, stay with friends unless it's necessary to be around her.

[HisLove]

LankyGuy - I've been married and divorced twice. There are children to those husbands. It's not easy, but it is do-able.

 

For different reasons at the end of those marriages, in order to keep proceeding with separating our lives, I had to become quite hard and cold and stand firm against any mindgames. I was able to do that by not taking their traumas on board. My first husband was very depressed and devastated by the separation and he called me one night. I didn't have a good feeling about the tone of his voice, but I didn't get sucked into it. I said calmly that I'm sorry he's feeling like that but I can't help him any more. Goodbye. Then I called his mother and said I was concerned for him, could she call him and handle it please. He's been remarried now for a number of years and pretty happy I think.

 

How people deal with breakups or the end of a relationship is THEIR responsiblity. You can't be held to ransom for that. The only way you don't get held to ransom emotionally or get blackmailed emotionally is to disconnect and believe they are all grown up just like you, and can deal with the situation.

 

I can think of a DOZEN worse things in life to deal with than the end of a crappy relationship. That's the perspective you have to put it in.

 

There is no right time to leave, no easier or better time - any time is a crappy time. You just have to do it. Honestly, I think if you wait until the baby arrives, it is going to be even harder. Get yourself settled and established in your new life. In 20 years time, do you think it will make any difference to your child whether you separated before he was born or 3 months after he was born?? But I bet that subtle difference WILL affect your life. Cos then you will feel truly stuck.

 

She might threaten suicide or whatever, tell her if she EVER threatens it you will call the paramedics and police immediately for her safety, and that it will make her look like an unstable and poor mother. Her call.

[ANIMVLA]

LankyGuy I came in late on this one, and havent read the intervening posts, but yes this dynamic does arise with some women. Ouch. I feel your pain.

 

She's throwing out '**** tests' - seeing of you're going to pass/fail as you rightly recognize.

 

This you mightnt realise in the anecdote about being on the phone, is that you "passed" the first test by *not* hanging up immediately, but by doing the right thing and being polite, but also wrapping up the conversation. You 'failed' the second test by buying into her frame that she was in the right about that one etc etc. So she punished you by with-holding because you failed the second **** test. This was the time to charm and disarm, bat away her tantrum and take her.

 

Women do this all the time, and its usually subconscious and/or hidden from us. They want to see if you're the 'real deal', a 'real man'. Your wife does it with what degree of self-awareness who knows, but it comes out very upfront and aggressive. Relentless. If you start doing the right thing by yourself first and by her secondly then I think you'd find this behaviour is drastically reduced.

 

It will *never* go away, as she'll always return at times to testing you, but if you're consistent in doing the right thing (rather than being pussy-whipped, trying to superficially 'please' her by doing what she *says* she wants) then it will no doubt be milder/subtler and less frequent.

 

So, no she's not crazy, but she wants desperately to know she's with a strong man who does the right thing.

 

Ive been in with a woman like this before, and yes it's like she's crazy/mad/unreasonable/manipulative. Usually these types are very feminine and hypersexual when properly managed. When they can 'let go' after you prove yourself. She'll be happier when you take a strong lead by putting your foot down. In a nutshell: what she says she wants is not what she wants (now that would be crazy hehe, go figure). Instead, she wants a strong lead from you. Good luck dude.

 

PS

Theres a book 'Way of the superior man' by a David Deida that you may find enormously useful. It deals largely with this kind of dynamic and related issues.

[Phateless]

I agree with Animvla, I think he's very right. Give it a shot and see what happens.

[OWoman]

We do have some good times. But the bad times are really bad. I'm sure it's damaged me in a lot of ways...and probably her as well.

 

Lanky - tell us some more about the good times - how are things between you then? Does she treat you with respect? As an equal? Does she suspend her mind games and controlling behaviour? What makes the times "good" and what determines whether it's going to be a "good" time or a "bad" one?

 

 

Edit: sorry, I just can't exorcise the image of the little girl who had a little curl right in the middle of her forehead...

[Storyrider]

LG, I can't shake the feeling that she expects you to supply her own happiness and self worth. She has to grow up and find that from within, or from her faith, not from her husband.

[LankyGuy]

I wanna respond to some of your posts later, but I only have a minute. Some of you want some ideas of my relationship..how we interact. Well, I guess what decides if it's a good time or a bad time is her usually. I'm pretty easy going...but when I am in a grumpy mood she won't let it go...she won't leave me alone and then we end up in a fight. It's crazy. We did go to a Bret Michaels concert and dinner last night and it was fine. There was no fighting...although she does worry that I'm gonna leave her...I can tell by some of the things she said.

 

Here's an account of my pathetic existence....

 

OK, so this isn't one of the 'good' times, I guess, but here's an example of a typical Saturday. Today I'm working for a few hours on the computer processing a tenant's application, researching a computer monitor I may buy, and looking for a new laptop battery...mine lasts for 12 minutes now. She was at the gym and shopping for a recliner most of the day.

 

This is what I get over an hour period or so this afternoon.

 

"I've never seen anyone who can sit on a computer so long" (with a bitchy tone)

 

"You're ridiculous. Why do you need to have a working battery for your laptop?" (they cost $45)

 

"You're wasting time! We need to get the garage cleaned up." I tell her that it's my time not hers. I want to clean the garage too but not right now. She responds basically saying that my time is her time but I never give it to her because I refuse to do anything to make her happy.

 

Then we're cleaning and she comes across a folder of my old BMX stuff from when I was a teenager. Inside was a card from my 14 year old girlfriend...my first. It's the only thing I have kept from my HS exes...I didn't even know I had it. She grabs it, looks at it and says "Stupid" and throws it away in front of me...I didn't say anything. It would have been a fight had I wanted to hold onto it. But I felt that it was disrespectful and mean.

 

Then there was an argument about at $500 monitor that I want to buy for a second room that will double as a TV. She refuses to let me buy it. I just got a $15000 raise 8 months ago and another $6000 raise 2 weeks ago...it's the only thing I've wanted to buy in a long time...I spend very little money on myself. She won't have it. I said, "Fine, I won't buy it." That's the only way it can work.

 

A minute ago she just gave me crap for not cleaning the litter boxes right. "Did you even clean these?"

 

So this is a typical Saturday. She's willing to help around the house, etc. but it's always on her terms. If she sees me on the computer right now, she'll be pissed...we're supposed to be cleaning the garage. Gotta run...

[LankyGuy]

Oh, and I got yelled at when I grabbed a beer from the fridge this afternoon. "Drink some water! You had two sodas today! You don't drink any water!"

 

I guess I've always thought all the nagging, etc was normal. I can't even imagine a relationship without it, it's been like this for so long. Back to the garage...

[Phateless]

You need to stand up for yourself. That other guy was right, she's $h!t testing you and you're failing. You resist and she'll throw out an even bigger test. She's the dominant one and may never change. How did you allow things to become this way?

 

You just have to tell her no, and let her get upset. You can't indulge her ridiculous emotions. Her emotions are her own and you're not responsible for them. She is.

[LankyGuy]

Dude, I don't know. It started a long time ago. I can still remember the first time she used a bitchy aggressive tone with me...a control thing about how I was supposed to be more aggressive when asking for a napkin at a boardwalk restaurant. It was in 1994...we were 18 and 19.

 

I told her I didn't like it back when it happened....she remembers the situation. Now I look back at that time as a milestone in the relationship. One where I first saw her aggressive controlling behavior. I do tell her I don't like this stuff. I've been telling her for years. If I don't perform the way she wants it's more bitching and more aggression. The **** test thing doesn't work. It's never enough. She'll always want more. There will always be more tests and higher expectations. The fact that I've stayed has shown her that she can get away with this stuff.

[Phateless]

That's exactly why you need to get out. You just explained it to me yourself. You see what I did there? I fed your own rationalization back to you so you would argue it with me.

 

So, now that you are thinking clearly, what are you gonna do?

[Ms. Red]

As I read your thread Lankydood, I keep thinking of my grandfather. My grandmother was always riding him about everything. I don't know how early I noticed it. But it did last till the day he died. I always had hoped he would out-live her just to see what it was like to make his own decisions on normal every day things.

 

Even on his death bed she couldn't let him make a simple decision based on a piece of friggen fruit. The hospital had given him a banana & he liked to let them sit & ripen a couple days. She hounded him & hounded him about it. She finally grabbed it & peeled it & stuffed it in his hands while bitching, "I guess if I don't do this, this will NEVER get eaten."

 

She threw herself oh scuse me, I should say them, (insert sarcasm) a 50th wedding anniversary party on their 47th because he had a terminal illness & she thought he might not make it to their 50th. And God forbid she not get her big bang party! Anyway, it was at that party I realized how the extending family felt towards my grandpa. When she was ordering him around at the party & he followed like her puppy dog, I heard smirks from ppl about who wore the pants in the family. I heard someone say, (sadly) if he doesn't make it to their 50th, it will be a good thing for him! That's just friggen sad. Death would be better than living with her? It was at that party I saw my Grandma in a different light. I think I lost any respect I had for her that day. And I looked at my grandpa as a whipped little puppy willing to obey his master at all costs!

 

They married when she was 15 & he was 19. He died at 73 yrs never knowing what life was like to make his own decisions on simple every day things. Right down to what food he had on his plate to what clothes he could wear. When I got the call 6 years later that my grandma had passed away. I didn't shed one tear. I felt a heavy burden of relief lift off my shoulders.

 

You see, after he died, I was the nearest relative & she manipulated me to run to her house when she needed me. I missed days of work taking her to ER when she thought she was having a heart attack. Only to be found out it was heartburn.etc.... She didn't treat me bad or yell at me like she did him. Instead she turned it into helplessness.

 

My Dad was always perturbed at how I would miss work or stay up late because I had to run over to Grandma's (his mother-in-law) & told me to refuse next time she called. I finally actually refused to run over there, my aunt who was miles away had to call emergency services to go over there since I acted like I could care less & would get over there when I could. She actually had a real heart attack & ended up in ICU. Needless to say, I felt like $hit. But, she brought it on by crying wolf one too many times with me.

 

So, when she died, I did not shed one tear. Not even a lump in my throat. I finally felt like I was able to exhale completely & relax. (I ended up crying at the closing of the casket at her funeral) When my Grandpa died I bawled & bawled at his bedside waiting for the mortuary to get him. I cried of course that I would miss him. But, I also cried because I never saw him as a full man. I looked at him with pity that he never felt the high confidence a man can get from the support of a loving wife.

 

I know this is long, but the whole time I was reading your thread I thought of my Grandpa & wondered if your willing to continue to be the puppy dog that follows it's master out of fear. Are you willing to have family & friends see you as part of a man? Do you want your children & grandchildren to pity you from the sidelines? I know separation & divorce is not easy. But in time you will get through it & the pain & difficulty does end. If you stay, get ready for a lifetime of what you are in now. It's not something wrong with you. It is something wrong with HER. You can become the full man a loving wife can adore & support. I don't think she can be that woman for you. It's engraved in her personality in my opinion.

[Zolie]

Ms. Red, Your grandparents sound EERILY like mine. Your story sent chills up my spine, because it sounded so similar. My grandmother berates my grandfather and it kills me to witness it.

 

There are some differences in our stories, though, one being my grandfather does not tolerate it for long. He will eventually snap at her to stop, calm down, or just hush up already. And she shuts up, then. So, it was never suggested she wore the pants. It is heartbreaking to hear your poor grandfather died at 73 and had to take her abuse for so many years.

 

But, now that my grandparents are older (90s) and feeble, he doesn't defend himself as quickly, and it breaks my heart to see her harangue him so much. She is partially blind and he is partially deaf, and she gets unbelievably irritated at him when she has to repeat herself - but he willingly and cheerfully does things for her that she can't see well enough to do. I pointed that out to her one time when she was complaining to me that she can't stand it when he doesn't "listen". ARGH!

 

Lanky, these are stories that should scare you enough to realize your wife will probably never change. My grandmother has been this way her entire life (according to my mother) and my grandfather gets the brunt of it. You do NOT want to live the rest of your life this way! I so hope you are able to move on if it becomes evident your wife is never going to stop this behavior.

[Zolie]

I guess I've always thought all the nagging, etc was normal. I can't even imagine a relationship without it, it's been like this for so long.

 

Aha! That explains why you are still with her. You didn't know there were other women/wives out there who don't behave this way. I've heard that same kind of statement spoken by children who grew up in an abusive home. They think that is just the way mommies and daddies treat their children. Then they get to a certain age and they are amazed to realize not all homes are like that.

 

You need to come to that same realization and discover the beauty of a loving relationship. I'm rooting for you!

[LankyGuy]

Thanks. Those stories were helpful. I don't want to end up like that. Our friends see it sometimes. Here I am an educated 6'4" 200 lb guy getting bossed around like a little kid.

 

I do snap at times and stick up for myself, but it just pisses her off and then I get torn up later for it...or I get a dramatic guilt trip. A few months ago we were at a friends yard sale and I think our friends saw how bossy and hard to please she can be when she was simply trying to get me to display a desk mat. I just couldn't do it right for her...it was never in the right spot and there was always a reason why it was stupid to put it there. I have a Master's in molecular biology but I'm not smart enough to lay a damn mat down? She certainly made me feel this way. I lost it and in a firm pissed off voice I said "Just tell me where you want the freakin mat and I'll put it there! I'm not gonna guess where you want it!" It was uncomfortable around our yuppy friends but I'm not gonna have them watch me being hen pecked like that.

 

Another friend also saw her scream at me one night at dinner at our house for eating the soft taco meat without a tortilla...just with a fork. She was pissed. She was saying that I was wasting it. I'm thinkin WTF? Whether I eat the meat with a tortilla, with a freakin' shovel, or snort it up my nose, what effin' difference does it make? I'm saving a damn tortilla if anything! She really started to lose it when I kept eating the meat that way. My friend even interjected so that the bitching would stop. It was embarrassing...I was embarrassed for her more than anything.

 

Phateless, I've been working on this and assessing this 'relationship for the last several months. We're meeting with another counselor in a week or so and we'll see what there is left of this relationship. The last guy we talked to was tough on her. We'll see what this one days. She said that since this one has a PhD and not just a Master's maybe he'll give us better advice :-/

 

Maybe the counselor will make her see that she's got some issues to work out...if she doesn't buy it then I don't think anything will ever change.

 

If I decide it won't work, I will NOT leave her while the surrogate is carrying our baby...I'm not doing that to the surrogate. Whatever price I pay for that, if I do decide to leave, is just something I'll have to deal with.

 

Zolie, that's interesting. I'm aware of how abused people stay in relationships saying "I know he/she loves me," but I never looked at myself that way. I do think she loves me, because she shows it in a lot of ways and gives me a lot of attention. But then I don't know how she could with some of the ways she treats me sometimes. A couple of months ago she told me that she can't believe how little common sense I have for being such a smart person...maybe she's right...

[JamesM]

You need to stand up for yourself. That other guy was right, she's $h!t testing you and you're failing. You resist and she'll throw out an even bigger test. She's the dominant one and may never change. How did you allow things to become this way?

 

You just have to tell her no, and let her get upset. You can't indulge her ridiculous emotions. Her emotions are her own and you're not responsible for them. She is.

 

This is so right. From a guy who has been married almost 18 years, I cannot believe that you let this go like this. You do need to be assertive. It is not just a matter of her having her way, it is to the point that you don't do things that you want to do. Her telling you not to have a beer is a huge control thing.

 

I may have mentioned the friend I had who was so very much like you that it is scary. He did everything he could to make her happy, but she finally divorced him. She wanted a man who was more assertive, and yes, she told me that. Before they married, she and I were good friends. We talked a lot on the phone, but I never tried to please her. I told her how I felt. While I felt close to her, I could never marry her, and she wanted man who she could "fix" as her father was also a passive husband.

 

What is/was your father in law like?

 

This may be a hopeless situation at this point, but I am pretty certain if you do not change, your life can only get worse. You really need to stand up for your own "rights" WITHOUT showing anger or a lack of love for her. When she yells at you not to take a beer, then you go get one and says, "Thanks for caring, but I think I can still handle another." This is the nice way. Truthfully, if my wife said that, I would say, "Uh, did I marry my mother?" She would act shocked or mad, but she would know what i meant and probably end up laughing. But we have a different relationship.

 

My suggestion is...for YOU to get individual counseling to help YOU be YOU. And then, the two of you can get marital counseling.

[JerseyShortie]

All women "test" in some way or another. It's a way for us to find out more about our man. But the OP's wife sounds extreme and unfair to the OP.

[Lovelybird]

Hi, LankyGuy

 

Your post reminded me my childhood. There was a boy sit right next to me in every class, that's how teacher arranged that. and I remember he was soft, gentle and never say 'no' to me. when I called him names, he just laughed, and treated me same, even better. I must be devil that time, I grew disrespect for him each day, and abused him verbally. When I grew up and began to date, I met a man who was abusive to me. and this exprience reminded me how I treated that little boy baddly. I thought I was deserve this bad treatment, even thought maybe I paid that little boy back in some degree by suffering like that. I hope God bless his soul. You see, your soft attitude will elevate the manipulation and verbal abuse. If that little boy expressed his attitude that he won't accept this kind of behaviour, I would not go that far. others may throw things to your way, it is your responsibility to defend.

 

My mother is bossy, even I don't like how she treated my father. my father always said he don't want to hurt her and he wants peace at home, and always did what she told him, like a slave. I tried to talk to them that isn't healthy, and I didn't see any big change. I was her puppy too until I had big fight with her, and don't back down when facing her manipulation, since then she respects me very much. Later, I don't know how, my father began to stand his ground firmly, in my heart I would say 'YAY' when I saw him faught for his dignity. my mother became less bossy, and more sweet toward my father, it's like miracle, maybe my father is influenced by Lord as well

 

If you want to change, you have to take up responsibility, you have to stand your ground firmly. Following every whim of her isn't love, only help her become a more self-centered person, and do you no good as well. You can disagree with her and still respect her and care about her. With gentle refusal to her, you can achieve balance. first you have to find out your own ground, understand where to define boundaries, and who you really are as a person, each of us is valuable equal being. I think there are many good books out there to explore this issue