Little "tests" - Fair or manipulation?

[OWoman]

Two comments....

 

From personal experience, I can say that while my wife may show her pain to me, she can keep it well hidden from the kids. A mother can go to great lengths to protect her children but will not be so forgiving of a husband.

 

And, in no way am I justifying her behavior. I am simply trying to offer some insight that may help understand her behavior.

 

James I wasn't suggesting that YOU were justifying her behaviour - I was suggesting that if this was HER motivation (unconscious as it may be) that it may equally apply to a demanding, dependant baby. If she (the W) is in pain, the constant demands and sometimes disempowering need that small babies display - when they cry for hours and hours without stopping because of something you can't fix, like colic, say - may well push her into that zone of feeling her own needs, her own pain, are not being given enough airtime and her frustrations and powerlessness may well spill over onto the child. I've seen this happen with mothers who are very loving, very caring NORMALLY but because of their own pain / lack of sleep / depleted resources, get pushed into a space where something snaps and the kid gets it.

 

Which is what worries me - if she can't work through her issues and resolve them in dealing with an adult who can speak up for himself, what guarantee is there that the child will be protected against this? I think she needs help, and soon. For the child's sake, as well as the M and everyone in it.

[Zolie]

And, in no way am I justifying her behavior. I am simply trying to offer some insight that may help understand her behavior.

 

Yes, that is what I was doing, too. My mind automatically tries to find a valid and understandable reason for why someone would behave this way, because I can't fathom that someone would just randomly be mean to their spouse. Something causes a person to lash out at their spouse (unless the person is just a vicious person to begin with).

[Zolie]

her frustrations and powerlessness may well spill over onto the child.

 

I think she needs help, and soon. For the child's sake, as well as the M and everyone in it.

 

Yes, this is very worrisome to me, too.

[OWoman]

Unfortunately the relationship has been the way it is long before RA. The RA and the infertility situation that resulted were extra stress. She needs even more and more from me, but I think I've been disconnected for a long time. The breaking point was this past summer when she had thyroid cancer. Yes, and she's only 32 (she had a full recovery after surgery with no need for chemo, etc.) She was even more depressed about this and along with the RA and the failed pregnancy attempts, she was very down. Nothing I could do was enough. She even railed into her mom for not giving her enough attention the day after the surgery.

 

Wow Lanky she sure has had a lot to deal with - RA, infertility, and the cancer! If things had started there it would be understandable: all these things besetting her, she must feel her life is out of control and so try to assert control somehow, anyhow... But you say that the patterns were well established long before that. Which makes me think that perhaps her controlling-ness and her venom are what's causing her illnesses - both because of high levels of toxicity in her system eating away at herself, but also because of high levels of stress whacking her immune system.

 

She really does need help; all this by age 32! If she carries on as she is, there won't be anything left of her to reach 40! Surely she can see by her health alone that the way she's living is not sustainable?

 

Lanky you've been incredibly supportive toward her and I think it's unfair of her to have expected more from you given the history - when batteries are flat you can't expect the torch to shine brightly. She needs to understand that your depletion is a direct consequence of her own behaviour, and that had she been more loving and supportive herself over the years, you'd have had more support and loving to give her.

 

Good luck with the MC - I hope she sticks it out this time, and I hope she gets the help she needs before she burns out entirely!

[LankyGuy]

Thanks. They don't know what causes RA yet but it may be triggered by stress... You may be correct.

 

The crappy thing is that she has blamed the rheumatoid arthritis on me a few times :-/

[OWoman]

Thanks. They don't know what causes RA yet but it may be triggered by stress... You may be correct.

 

The crappy thing is that she has blamed the rheumatoid arthritis on me a few times :-/

 

Well if she really thinks that then more fool her for sticking around someone who's making her physically sick! Or is that simply to make you do penance for causing it in the first place?

 

Lanky why am I not surprised to here she's an elementary grade teacher? The ultimate controlling career! (Air traffic control is about controlling THINGS; this is about controlling PEOPLE! Who love you for doing it!) That's exactly the mode she's in with you, too - treating you like a child, expecting you to bring her bunches of wild flowers and shiny apples to show your love, and giving you gold stars when you do your work well and frowny faces when you don't. Shouting when a kid gets "uppity" and demanding undivided attention complete respect and obedience at all times. No wonder she gets commendations for it - she's "on duty" all the time, her skills must be really finely honed.

 

So I guess your choice is whether you want to stay in elementary school all your life, or whether you want to graduate to something a little more... mature?

[LankyGuy]

OK, you made me laugh out loud OWoman :-) Finely honed ;-) Good points...I never thought of that. And when she couldn't decide on a major back when we were "kids", after trying two or three different fields, I suggested that she try education. She resisted, but tried it, graduated with A's, and ended up being a natural at it.

 

I didn't think she'd turn it against me :-/

[mental_traveller]

These are the kinds of games I have to play...it's ridiculous.

 

You don't have to play them. You choose to play them or at least put up with them. What is it about the alternatives that are so unacceptable to you?

Edited February 4, 2008 by mental_traveller

[mental_traveller]

Well, I actually had a thread on here a month or so ago about that. Sex has been nearly non-existent for around 10 years. She had no interest in it and says I don't treat her well enough to want to do it.

 

I'm shaking my head here, in the same way that I do when I read about people who are crack whores or gambling addicts who throw away their life savings. Your wife has turned you into a virtual slave, you have willingly surrendered your personality and identity as a free individual being, and on top of that you don't even get laid?

 

You are basically functioning as a near-chaste handyman, ATM, and verbal punching bag for your wife/slave-driver. That is the totality of your existence as a grown man. If that doesn't strike you as pathetic, even tragic, then I'm afraid there is no hope for you. You'll spend the rest of your days as an empty shell, living a half-life in the shadow of her who must be obeyed. I really think the other people are wasting their time here. Their advice is not actually going to help improve your situation. You did not come here to get good advice and then take it. You came her to get some emotional support, the support you don't get from your wife. But you are being insincere, because once you get it, you'll go right back to your empty marriage and carry on the same way regardless. These people are taking the time to tell you the best alternatives, and you're just gonna nod your head then do absolutely diddly squat about it.

 

It's a sad situation, much like seeing the dishevelled hobo begging for change as people walk by on their way to work. A few generous souls toss some change in his direction, but we all know it won't make a damned bit of difference to his direction in life. The only guy who can change is the tramp, he has to find it within himself to break his habits and recreate his life anew through pure determination and force of will. You're in the same situation, and probably have about the same chance of success too.

Edited February 4, 2008 by mental_traveller

[Scrivdog]

This is a game you win by not playing.

[JamesM]

OWoman, great posts!

 

LankyGuy, your wife does have a lot to deal with and if your marital problems began when her illnesses began, then I could say that this was the main cause. I think you described it well. Your marriage is showing the prior problems more explicitly now.

 

Thyroid cancer will mess up the thyroid. And a messed up thyroid will kill the libido, too. Even if she is taking synthroid or similar meds, the libido can still be very low.

 

Also with the advent of a baby, she must also feel like her life is about to change all over again. For some reason, she thinks she is in this alone.

 

At this point, I am guessing that she feels she can do nothing right. She also feels the strain of marriage, and she lashes out at you in her anger, depression and grief. Again, I do not justify her, but she definitely have some reason...today.

 

It would be nice to hear her side. You DO appear very balanced in your posts, but her side would give a different perspective even if it is biased her way. There are always three sides as they say...yours, hers, and the truth. This does not demean you in the slightest, but there are always going to be aspects of our opinions and stories that will leave out the other view. It is unavoidable.

 

I am curious as to what made you marry her. When do you think she became this way? When did she begin "nagging" you? (If you said already, my apologies for missing this.)

 

As Zoile said,

Also, the more I read, the more I am convinced she is clinically depressed and that she suffers from the severe irritability symptom that is rare, but real for some people. Many of the things you have stated about her are things I used to do (to a smaller degree) before I got "well".

 

I agree. Due to the cancer and RA, this is most likely. Is she on any antidepressants?

 

Having said all that, and while you may need to have patience due to her circumstances, when we marry, our partner should be our best friend. For some reason, the two of you have disconnected from this. My wife also has her physical problems, but I am the one to whom she can tell everything. I am the one she goes to for advice. So, the illnesses may be her problem, but you can be her help. I think you know that, but for some reason, she doesn't think you are.

 

Does she have any friends who are her closest confidant?

 

BTW, if divorce happens, it will only confirm what she thinks she knows. While this is not your problem, it would be nice if you still have feelings for her (which I think would be hard at this point) to be sure to investigate all possible reasons for her actions. At least YOU can walk away knowing you did everything.

[LankyGuy]

Tonight was an interesting night. My wife was sitting with me after a nice night together and she asked me if I was happy with things. I said yes but there were two incidents yesterday that I was upset with how she treated me. If felt that I needed to tell her. Basically I made an issue of the disrespect that I felt...especially when she chose to get rid of a CD of MINE because she deemed that I didn't need it...despite me asking several times for her not to throw it away. The other issue was that she got really mad because for about 5-10 seconds my attention was on the super bowl while she was talking to me...I was listening to her but watching it for a few seconds. I didn't think it was right to give me a huge guilt trip, silent treatment, anger and drama about it...it's only once a year and is the only sports game I've watched in a year. I give her my undivided attention EVERY TIME she talks to me...we just worked ALL day together...it was 7:00 pm on Super Bowl Sunday...cut me some slack!

 

Well, she started crying and getting pissed off INSTANTLY. As soon as I mentioned that I wasn't happy with some things she lost it. She DOES NOT want to hear that. She wants to hear that it's going great. Well...it's NOT. I still feel miserable when she's bitchy and controlling....she needs to know that if this has any chance to make it. She took it really hard as if I'm trying to pick on her and she told me I need to pick my battles because it was just a "fagot CD" that i never listen to...it was Rod Stewart...I think he's pretty cool. Anyways, she then said she thought it was hers. Then she said she was just kidding. BULL$HIT! She did it on purpose...she's making up excuses now! I told her that.

 

So she was bawling and refused to talk to me. I went to her a few minutes later. She had the expected cold shoulder and bitchy attitude. But I told her I need to say a few things.

 

I told her I felt that she treated me like a child and was disrespectful to me. I told her that this controlling behavior is abuse. She said "Abuse!? You're being mellow dramatic!" She was pissed that I used that word. I also told her that she doesn't want me to be my own person. I told her that I don't want her to make my schedules for me and order me around like a kid. She goes "Well I stopped making your lunch! I hope you're happy!" I told her THAT is not what I have problems with...it's that she scolds me like one of her students. She's throwing up smoke screens or something with that lunch crap...guilt trip, I guess. She then said "Just go be by yourself if that's what you want!" This is more abuse! That wasn't the point of the talk!

 

I told her that I feel that I've been hurt for a long time with her aggressive behavior. "WHAT AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR!" she screams with a look on her face that could kill. I said, "THAT aggressive behavior right there!" Then she says "Why didn't you TELL ME that it was hurting you?!" WTF? So she's blaming it on ME? I've told her for years that she treats me like a student. She sees how upset I get when she's mean and manipulative. She KNOWS that I think she controls me... So she's turning it around and blaming it on me? I asked her if her treating me that way is MY fault... She said "I think it's BOTH our faults."

 

She went on to say that she treats me nice the majority of the time...I told her it doesn't work that way. The hurtful treatment takes HUGE withdrawals from the "love bank" causing my resentment and disconnection to build. I also told her that if she wants me to "feel it" then she needs to stop treating me this way. She said "If you don't feel it then why are you having sex with me? That's not right!" Huh? She's initiated it...I haven't pushed her for it... Is she using sex as a manipulation tool AGAIN?

 

So she begged me to stop talking to her and just let her go to sleep. She's been doing that when I push my case for her poor treatment. She just wants to escape. That's not gonna make it any better, though.

 

She was crying the whole time. I DID NOT console her...I kept telling her the things that needed to be said. She's not a kid...she'll handle it. She was only crying because of her loss of control...they weren't over me or over her actions.

 

I'm not gonna do it anymore. Either she will stop the controlling, manipulative, abusive behavior or I'm leaving. I'm tired of playing the victim. If she wants me to be there for her and feel those feelings again, I can't take more of this crap. I'm a good husband to her and she has taken advantage of my nice guy demeanor. I don't deserve this treatment.

[BentSpine]

I'm not gonna do it anymore.

Oh yeah? You have done it before and habits are hard to change.

What's really different this time around? Besides a new counsellor?

 

Either she will stop the controlling, manipulative, abusive behavior or I'm leaving.

You expect a vindictive person to stop being vindictive because you want her to? I think that is such a major change of character that she has to hit rock bottom before she will want to change. Her behaviour has worked, for her, during many years that you have been together. Your consistent actions have reinforced her behaviour for years. Now I sound like a broken record but actions still speak louder than words, LankyGuy. And now you hope that your mere words will make her want to change.

 

I don't deserve this treatment.

Is that news to you?

[Phateless]

Dude, she's freaking insane. You can't talk to her, you're wasting your breath. You can't tell her your feelings or calmly work things out because she doesn't play that way. If you want to get her attention you have to make a power play.

 

I think you should just leave. Why waste your time on energy on someone who isn't worth it? Go find a real woman. This chick is a child.

[LankyGuy]

Guys, I know you two think I should GTFO of this relationship, but I can't right now with a baby on the way. I won't.

 

I need to put it all out there in front of her...so that she at least has the chance to try...or to decide whether she wants to try. This relationship is no longer going to be on her terms...if she can't have a relationship with me where she does not scream, belittle, and disrespect, then it will be over.

 

Also, if I were to leave, I'm still going to have to deal with her for the rest of my life. I want her to know that she's abusive, controlling, etc. That's the only chance I have of having a somewhat decent post-divorce rapport with her. If she's bad with it NOW wait until she's dealing with me and I'm NOT providing for her.

 

This fight was a huge step for me. I was firm. I did not back down. I did not apologize. I did not play the games.

 

Today is our 8 year anniversary wedding. This should be an interesting day.

[Blue Eyed Brain]

Lanky - 10 years with hardly no sex? Wow, I could never withstand that much control over me.

 

Also, libido and thyroid - although connected is a state of mind. I was diagnosed with Hypo and started taking Synthroid about 8 years ago. My libido has been strong and kicking for over 7 of those years and I'm still going strong. H thinks I'm too sexual and asked me to have tests (blood work) done.

 

Blood work came out perfectly normal (testosterone, estrogen, thyroid, etc.). Dr. says I am a highly attentive sexually active woman who's husband should be reaping the benefits and loving it instead of sending his W to the Dr. for tests!

 

Boy, I love my Dr.

[StartingOver07]

I want her to know that she's abusive, controlling, etc. That's the only chance I have of having a somewhat decent post-divorce rapport with her. If she's bad with it NOW wait until she's dealing with me and I'm NOT providing for her.

 

Lanky, you can't make her see what she doesn't want to see and you can't fix her. All you can do -- should do, MUST do -- is own your own actions. There is nothing you can say or do to make your wife decide to change. She might come to this decision on her own when she sees she's lost you. Or she might not.

 

It doesn't really matter whether you back down and apologise or not. As long as you stay in a relationship that does not provide you with the things you need -- love, compassion, intimacy, respect -- the subtle nuances of whether you apologise or nor are irrelevant.

 

A lot has been said about the need for MC and for your wife to get help. What about you, Lanky? Do you think you would benefit from some counseling to help you see what it is about you that keeps you here? It's not just about having a baby on the way. It is worth exploring why your own sense of self-worth is so damaged that you have stayed with this woman for so long.

[JamesM]

A couple of things I noticed....

 

First, you LIKE Rod Stewart!?! Okay, sorry, I did stop there and stare a moment.

 

Second, "love banks." You must have picked up His Needs, Her Needs. Good book.

 

I for one do not think you need to leave. What many here forget is that you will be posting the worst right now, because that is what you feel. I am guessing that if you sat back, then you could also list what you like about your wife also. Sometimes it DOES take some reflection to remember what made you marry her.

 

Also, don't feel trapped just because a child is on the way. While I do admire and agree with you that you should try to stay for the child, just don't feel trapped and resentful. It is one thing to feel committed, but it is another thing to feel trapped.

 

Personally, I think these blowup are worth having IF they lead to resolution. But if it always turns into fights with no change, then this will not help. It does help if she sees that you are your own person. This way she doesn't feel that SHE is the one who this marriage is about...it is about both of you.

 

While I do see all of the abuse and problems you are having, it is worth sitting back and reflecting on her and what she is dealing with also. I think I am one of the few on this thread who can speak from years of marital experience (almost 18). This certainly means something when talking to someone who has been married and wants to stay that way. It can be done despite the differences. I do admit...you have some big obstacles, but it can be done. For instance, sex may mean a lot to you, but it is obviously not worth breaking up a family over...or you would have done it years ago. You love her for more than sex...as do most of us who get married. To those who have never been married or who have been married a short time, this is harder to comprehend, because sex is so important in the first years. It does not lose importance later...it simply becomes less of a priority, IMO. Yet if it does not exist in a marriage, it is a good measurement that something is wrong with the marriage.

 

What she has to deal with as I read it here...rheumatoid arthritis (lifetime of pain), uncertainly if husband loves HER for who SHE is (her viewpoint...not necessarily correct), past cancer...which means a future cancer is much more likely (constant fear although it may be minimized), new baby in the household ("can I be a mother?" "will he be a father?" "will he BE here?" "can I do this alone?"...and more questions), career AND motherhood ("can I do both?" "will I have to give up the job I love?" "did we do the right thing?"), and probably more that I am not aware of.

 

Also, she seems to be depressed...whether this is clinical or situational, it is hard to say. Plus...you guys have had a tough marriage for many years. Why she has not enjoyed sex...it is hard to say. I don't remember if you said, but if she has been abused in her past (and you may not know...date rape, incest, etc), this will have a huge impact if she has not resolved it. She has anger issues...obviously...that come from somewhere, and are caused by something besides you. Anger has worked for her, crying to avoid confrontation has worked...if she is losing. And the list goes on, I am sure.

 

Looking at it from her viewpoint which for me is much easier that it is for you, makes it a more solvable situation. I don't know if she has had personal counseling, but if she hasn't, then she may actually love the idea of having someone to whom to talk unconnected to you. If she has the dedication to make this marriage work for everyone, then it will work. But if she thinks it is about making it work for HER, then it won't work. That goes for you as well...the focus needs to be on "us" not your needs only.

 

Good luck. If you have decided that it is worth it for the child, then it will take hard work, but one breakthrough to her may be all that is needed.

[Woggle]

You are like a slave to this woman and no matter how much you give she will never be happy. Women like her are a bottomless pit and they will be perpetually angry at you for god knows what reason. Why did you two decide to bring a child into this? I can't imagine living like that. I love my wife dearly but she doesn't tell me how to live my life.

[JamesM]

 

Also, libido and thyroid - although connected is a state of mind. I was diagnosed with Hypo and started taking Synthroid about 8 years ago. My libido has been strong and kicking for over 7 of those years and I'm still going strong. H thinks I'm too sexual and asked me to have tests (blood work) done.

 

Blood work came out perfectly normal (testosterone, estrogen, thyroid, etc.). Dr. says I am a highly attentive sexually active woman who's husband should be reaping the benefits and loving it instead of sending his W to the Dr. for tests!

 

Boy, I love my Dr.

 

I cannot believe your H would send you to the doctor because you want TOO much sex. Men!!

 

Thyroid reactions and symptoms vary from person to person. One person may find synthroid to make everything perfect, while another person finds that it doesn't . My wife is one who it doesn't work for. And while your tests were "perfect" in all other areas, this could be different for LG's wife.

 

While to some degree, it is a state of mind, it is also physical. If the pain or symptoms of fatigue still linger, sex is not going to be on the mind. At 32, LG's wife should still have interest in sex, but remember...there are also infertility issues. I am guessing that this plays into this sex problem as well.

 

LG, your wife also has the additional issue of pain. Imagine if you had this pain in your joints. I am sure that you have read what the symptoms are, but for the rest of us,

 

Rheumatoid arthritis is an inflammatory form of arthritis that causes joint pain and damage. Rheumatoid arthritis attacks the lining of your joints (synovium) causing swelling that can result in aching and throbbing and eventually deformity. Sometimes rheumatoid arthritis symptoms make even the simplest activities — such as opening a jar or taking a walk — difficult to manage.

 

 

There's no cure for rheumatoid arthritis.

 

Signs and symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis may include:

 

* Joint pain

* Joint swelling

* Joints that are tender to the touch

* Red and puffy hands

* Firm bumps of tissue under the skin on your arms (rheumatoid nodules)

* Fatigue

* Morning stiffness that lasts at least 30 minutes

* Fever

* Weight loss

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/rheumatoid-arthritis/DS00020/DSECTION=2

 

Now for a woman who does not prioritize sex, do you think pain will kinda kill the rest of the interest? The question is...how can this pain be reconciled with her need and duty to be a mother and a wife? It could be that she spends so much time feeling sorry for herself that she has no time for you.

 

My wife is on meds for pain due to fibromyalgia, so I do have some understanding of what you deal with. However, her pain is probably not as much nor does hers tend to get worse as time goes on. Here is a link which explains what it is. We have dealt with it for the past eight years.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fibromyalgia/DS00079

 

I think you have some tough issues in your marriage, but staying and "fighting" for solutions is very admirable. As you read, many would simply run.

[LankyGuy]

Lanky - 10 years with hardly no sex? Wow, I could never withstand that much control over me.

 

Also, libido and thyroid - although connected is a state of mind. I was diagnosed with Hypo and started taking Synthroid about 8 years ago. My libido has been strong and kicking for over 7 of those years and I'm still going strong. H thinks I'm too sexual and asked me to have tests (blood work) done.

 

Yes, she was on synthroid for the past 5 years...she had hypothyroidism, then got a cancerous nodule. It's pretty common for people with hypo.

 

I think she has a sex drive...she always has an orgasm within 30-60 seconds and usually once we're actually doing it she enjoys it...she says she does. She just never wants to actually get to that point...sleep or work or something is always more important.

[Blue Eyed Brain]

I think she has a sex drive...she always has an orgasm within 30-60 seconds and usually once we're actually doing it she enjoys it...she says she does. She just never wants to actually get to that point...sleep or work or something is always more important.

 

Hmmm, that seems very quick (to orgasm within a minute or so). It this by oral? When you "do it" is she on top or do you use different positions?

 

Also, nothing is more important than intimacy and sex with your partner. We can all catch up on sleep, but we never seem to catch up on intimacy.

 

When things are better (and I hope they get better). Make sure that you do things that will prolong her climax. I, personally, like it to take 10-15 minutes. Exploration is key in oral love-making. If you can get her to hold out more, she will enjoy it more...... believe me! Also, is a great stress reliever!

 

Liquor her up and take advantage of her (in a good way).

[Blue Eyed Brain]

I cannot believe your H would send you to the doctor because you want TOO much sex. Men!!

 

I know. A male friend of mine thought I was crazy to even go to the Dr. My H thinks I should be on a medication to help with my active libido. I thought he would like it - that I am sexual intuitive to my body, but he's not.

 

Hence, the reason for our separation.

 

I could sure use a good man.;)

[JamesM]

I know. A male friend of mine thought I was crazy to even go to the Dr. My H thinks I should be on a medication to help with my active libido. I thought he would like it - that I am sexual intuitive to my body, but he's not.

 

Hence, the reason for our separation.

 

I could sure use a good man.;)

 

Okay, now I AM shocked. Separated because wife wants TOO much sex. I have heard it all.

 

Here I am with a wife who doesn't want sex very often, and he kicks one out who wants too much sex.

 

I guess it goes to show that mismatched libidos go both ways.

 

I am a good man...but that's right, the good ones are married.

[LankyGuy]

JamesM, thanks for your posts. You always make very good and thoughtful points. I can't make a detailed post right now, but I wanted to say a few things.

 

Yes, you're correct about the RA. Yes, I'm aware of the symptoms. I actually used to do research on it for a living and did so when she was presenting with symptoms. I'm the one who "diagnosed" her with it...we had to put a lot of pressure on her doctors to send her to a rheumatologist...fortunately we did. She is affected by it everyday...she's learned to cope with it in a lot of ways physically, and the $40,000/yr drug that she is on has put a stop to the pain for the past year or two. People don't even know that she has a problem except when she as the occasional flare. Emotionally, she has struggled with it...especially the loss of control.

 

I am not going to stay in a miserable marriage just for the kid. It's not fair for anyone. I'm going to try to get all of this out in the open so that we can see what we have and what we can do. The MC visit may be an awakening for her. She's expecting me to be blamed for everything...I don't think that's going to be the case.