Little "tests" - Fair or manipulation?

[LankyGuy]

Hmmm, that seems very quick (to orgasm within a minute or so). It this by oral? When you "do it" is she on top or do you use different positions?

 

Either oral or by hand. Of course there's foreplay for 10-20 minutes...the orgasm comes in a minute after direct stimulation...there. And she's not faking it...I've asked her that point bland...she said...no way. I believe her.

[LankyGuy]

We use different positions...usually me on top, but we switch at times.

[Blue Eyed Brain]

Either oral or by hand. Of course there's foreplay for 10-20 minutes...the orgasm comes in a minute after direct stimulation...there. And she's not faking it...I've asked her that point bland...she said...no way. I believe her.

 

Does she truly enjoy the orgasm?

 

Even during direct stimulation, a minute is a short time. Try to prolong it a bit. Liquor will fog the sex senses, so try it with a few pops in her. Go oral and then hand, then oral then hand.... a mixture of the two will give her two different stimuli's and confuse the mind a bit, creating a prolonged orgasm.

 

When you are ready to try this..... it will be a huge reliever to her - and you may like it as well!

 

Let us know how the MC goes. Bring questions that you want answered so the time spent is worthy and not controlled by the MC. The MC should be watching the interaction between you and your wife.

[Ms. Red]

I definitely find it more admirable for a H (or W for that matter) to work through problems in a marriage rather than just run. I hope that's what you can achieve. I'm glad you stood up for yourself. Your attitude at the beginning was quite sad to read. (She MADE ME quit this, do that....etc)

 

I wish you both a Happy Anniversary & do hope it turns into a happy one. (Today is my 14th. We're separated though )

[JamesM]

JamesM, thanks for your posts. You always make very good and thoughtful points. I can't make a detailed post right now, but I wanted to say a few things.

 

Yes, you're correct about the RA. Yes, I'm aware of the symptoms. I actually used to do research on it for a living and did so when she was presenting with symptoms. I'm the one who "diagnosed" her with it...we had to put a lot of pressure on her doctors to send her to a rheumatologist...fortunately we did.

 

I am not going to stay in a miserable marriage just for the kid. It's not fair for anyone. I'm going to try to get all of this out in the open so that we can see what we have and what we can do.

 

You are welcome. No need to respond to every point.

 

I admire and respect your ambition thus far to save your marriage. The fact that you are here is already a testimony to that fact. You sound like me in a number of ways...I "diagnosed" my wife's thyroid condition as not being treatable by synthroid. And I have also come up with a couple of other solutions to problems...that the doctors missed. And my wife missed...she is a nurse...and a real good one. Yet for her to look at herself as objectively as she does her patients is difficult. These seem to be simple things yet they made a big difference. (One was that she had nausea and stomach pain for almost a year...after research of different foods and drinks, I suggested she quit drinking Silk soy milk. The nausea went away. She had been to a number of doctors and had tests done. Why they never checked her foods is beyond me.)

 

You should not stay in the marriage for the child, but the child does sound like an additional incentive...good or bad. The one thing that I felt two years ago was that if I was not going to accept my situation as it was, but I would not leave if I felt that there was still a possibility for change. And yes, children were also my incentive. Life is not perfect, but it is much better than it was.

 

Exhaust all possible solutions. If you do end up leaving, then it can be with the satisfaction that you did everything. One of my incentives also was...what if I miss something and the next guy figures it out? Would I not live with regret for the rest of my life of what could have been? Hence my research which led me to some solutions. While it is true that you cannot fix her, there is still the fact that you objectively sit back and look at her as you did when you determined the RA...this alone can help you provide her with optimistic solutions that can change her. Since much of this thread involves your marriage, it will take someone who can sit back and look at both of you with that same objectivity.

 

It takes the right MC. Don't settle until you have that person.

[Woggle]

I don't want to see him work on his marriage. I want to see him grow a pair and break out of prison because that is what it is like. I wish more men filed for divorce.

[Phateless]

He keeps trying to have mature discussions with someone who won't participate at all. My ex did the same thing - if we'd argue about something, as soon as I started to calmly make my point in a way that made sense she would bolt, because she couldn't bear the thought that maybe she was in the wrong and not me. It was ridiculous, made me furious. After being single for 3 months and dating two other people, I started to gain some perspective as to just how bad I had it with her.

 

Now, I can't believe I didn't respect myself to walk away years ago. I'm ashamed, honestly. Her breaking up with me was the best thing that ever happened to me.

[Ms. Red]

If he can put as much effort into repairing his marriage as he did to bring another innocent person into their lives, maybe he can accomplish something. He owes that to the child who has an unstable foundation from the get go.

 

But to raise a child in that mess (if he's unable to change it) would be bad. No father would want his son or daughter to think that is how a loving W treats their father & her H.

 

He's all ready said he won't stay if he can't change it.

[SunnySideUp]

LankyGuy

 

I really feel for you. I also have sympathy for your wife because I was in a very similar place after my son was born with problems that turned out to be cerebral palsy. I had overwhelming stress, anger, and sadness that came with his unexpected conception as well as his traumatic birth. It was all compounded by my husband's difficulty with the situation. I had no idea I was doing and saying all the wrong things, yelling, the cold shoulder, projecting my anger on my husband, etc. I did have issues with the way he was behaving, but I expressed them in the wrong manner, and I didn't even realize it. I had no idea the RIGHT way to interact with my husband, simply put. I didn't know these things because I was just doing what I had seen my parents do, and didn't really know there were alternatives. I'm a smart person, but I truly didn't have any other examples of how to act and couldn't learn the right way on my own. What I was doing and what your wife is doing is destroying your marriage, and she probably doesn't know what else to do, because she feels horrible things and is expressing them the only way she knows how. It is very sad.

 

What helped me was to get to a counselor after months of my husband urging me to go, and stating several times that he couldn't live with me acting the way I did. I actually wen to the counselor initially to tell her how fed up I was with my husband, and she diagnosed me as codependent. I read several relationship books, including the venus/mars one, which actually helped me realize why the things I was doing were wrong. I went to a codependents anonymous group, which helped A LOT.

 

If I were you, I'd give your wife an ultimatum that she needs to go to a counselor with you or alone, or you'll leave her. Based on what you've said about her, I bet if she said no, the moment you made moves to leave or walked out the door she'd be begging you to stay. I could very well be wrong though. I don't think you should have to live with someone so dysfunctional though, if she isn't even going to try to work with you on it.

[abeliever]

I probably should have read thru the posts after your initial one but this made me upset!

 

Why do women use sex as a way to control men? I am on the men side of things sex has nothing to do with issues. I can be mad at my H and still have sex with him. ( Okay not now divorcing but when our M was in tact )

 

My needs still need to be met! He was always the one who turned me down! I don't get this.

 

That is my two cents worth!

abeliever

[ladyintights]

I have a question. Since we were young, my wife has always given me little tests. She'll pose a question and see if I answer the "right way" or she'll see if I turn the lights on for her, or if I remember to ask her about something specific, etc. If I "fail" she'll call me out on it...saying "wrong answer" or "why didn't you ...?", etc. She'll often admit that it was a test. It drives me nuts but it's a way that she gets her needs met, I guess by training me to give her the answers she wants and doing the things she wants me to do...so I don't know if these are fair or just a passive aggressive method of manipulation, but I've always played along the best I could.

 

Well, I apparently badly failed a test today and it's caused quite a fight. She's been trying to get sex back into our marriage since it's been on hiatus since 2-3 years before we tied the knot 8 years ago. Today while on the phone with my brother (it's his birthday) she gave me the signal that she was "ready" and wanted me to get off the phone. Well, because my brother was upset about some things I took about one or two minutes ending the conversation...I figured that was reasonable.

 

I met my wife in the bedroom...and she was pissed. She couldn't believe I didn't get off the phone as soon as she asked. She expected me to get off the phone THAT second. She said it was a test and I failed. She then revoked the invitation for sex. She said she wanted to see if she was more important to me than a phone call. She said that if I want to have sex then she needs to feel that she's the most important thing.

 

To me it feels like manipulation and I feel like it was totally uncalled for for her to request sex when she knew I was unavailable...she coulda asked before I was on the phone. Actually, I'm fine with her asking when I'm on the phone, but I'm not happy that she got upset and called it off for not giving me the time to end the conversation with my brother. She feels like it's a valid test and that it further validates her thoughts that I don't put her first.

 

We're at a standstill. I'm trying to be less passive in the relationship and put my foot down for things I feel strongly about, but it seems to get us nowhere since I'm not giving in like I usually do. She will only be happy if I apologize for not hanging up immediately and promise not to do it again. But I think that was disrespectful to me...and I feel like it was a game.

 

She asked me if next time I'll get off the phone right away... Well, what am I going to say? It feels like she was holding sex up like a carrot but only dangling it when my mouth was already full...then pulling it away once I'd taken the time to swallow.

 

So...after all of that...are these little tests and "review sessions" afterwards fair or just a type of manipulation? Should I just deal with the tests and give her what she wants (apologies)...basically taking one for the team? She's really convinced that she was right on this one...I'm not...

 

Thanks...

 

 

wow, you are like a trained pet monkey! when will this woman grow up? she apparently has nothing major or nothing ELSE to worry about in life, huh? immaturity! i hope you give her a taste of her own medicine shortly

[ladyintights]

watch, you turn into the pushover she's making you to be and later she wont like it and think of you as a sissy... if you let her get away with this crap time and time again, it will only get MUCH MUCH worse.

[LankyGuy]

A lot has been said about the need for MC and for your wife to get help. What about you, Lanky? Do you think you would benefit from some counseling to help you see what it is about you that keeps you here? It's not just about having a baby on the way. It is worth exploring why your own sense of self-worth is so damaged that you have stayed with this woman for so long.

 

I probably would benefit from counseling. I'm not sure why I've stayed and I why I've put up with it like this. I obviously have issues...being in a relationship like this can cause them. You're right...there are lots of reasons I've stayed. Fear has caused me to stay for so long, most likely. The fear of her reaction if I left and and the fear of the unknown.

 

She knows this. A month or so ago when we got into a bad fight she told me that I better not leave her because I'd have to shop and cook for myself and pay the bills myself. I don't know if she's trying to hold me down by saying that or just grasping for whatever she can with her fear that I may leave.

[HisLove]

LankyGuy, this thread made me see something different about SunnySideUp's situation and I posted there. Her thread has made me see something different about your situation.

 

Do you think your wife's infertility issues have anything to do with her controlling behaviour? "Most" people assume they'll get pregnant when they want to, reproduction is natural and supposedly easy. When you're a teenager and they are ramming birth control and safe sex down your throat, they don't tell you how HARD if not IMPOSSIBLE it may be for you to reproduce. Everything is geared towards stopping a very determined super sperm through 50 contraceptive barrier devices and chemicals, and a drive across state to get to that unwilling egg etc.

 

So it's got to be very difficult to deal with when you finally learn that a basic human process that millions of people have no problems with, and even people who don't want it under any circumstances can't avoid it....that when YOU want it, your body says nope, no way, dream on, nada. I would think you would feel you can't even control something so simple. And she takes it out on you.

 

Just food for thought.

[LankyGuy]

HisLove,

 

Yes, the fertility problem has been a huge stress to our relationship. My wife is a control freak and motivated and generally works hard and gets what she wants. The ONE thing she hasn't gotten in life so far is a baby. It has caused her to be absolutely obsessed and irrational at times. She has been depressed and extremely hard to deal with in that aspect...I can understand her frustration and depression but it's been really hard. And yes, she often says how EASY it is for everybody else to get pregnant, but we got screwed...and have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to do it. I understand that too.

 

Up until recently she would cry when she saw a baby. She'd cry if she saw a pregnant lady. She'd get upset when her friends would mention their kids or send pictures of their kids through email. She thought it was disrespectful of them...

 

It's been very hard on me because she requires me to carry a lot of her burdens...she needs ME to carry her through depressing times...not just SUPPORT her through these times, but carry her...it's how I feel anyways. She told a counselor that the infertility had no negative effects on our marriage...and she really believes that. Well it's had a negative effect on me...but she doesn't see that...every time she has cried, pouted, and screamed it's had an effect on me.

 

The other problem is that she held A LOT of resent for me for "forcing" her to do the surrogate thing...something that results in "our own" child in a lot less time than a 3 year adoption process. I pushed for the idea over adoption for multiple reasons and she liked it at first and was really excited, but as soon as it became hard...after a surrogate miscarried at 8 weeks and after a failed in vitro and $40K down the drain she blamed it all on me saying I "made" her do that and she hates the idea...she really resented me. It's caused her to make irrational decisions in my opinion. It's what caused us to get 4 months into an adoption process, spending another $20,000 only to pull out recently because the final in vitro attempt with frozen embryos that she DID NOT want to do ACTUALLY WORKED. NOW, she likes the idea of the surrogate thing and I'm "great" again...well unless something happens...we're not out of the woods yet.

 

I understand her frustrations...but she's not handled it in a proper way, and I really think she needed to see a counselor about it...she wouldn't. I think she's too proud to go to a counselor for herself.

 

Things are better for her now that we have a baby coming in 3 months. She hates that we had to spend all that money and she still really wishes SHE was carrying the baby, but her spirits are much higher...much less depression about it She feels that she was born to be a mom...not being able to have a baby has been Hell for her....and for me.

[LankyGuy]

Oh, we had a rough 8 year anniversary last night. She still was not talking to me since our fight from the night before where I told her that I feel abused and mistreated.

 

Finally, hours into the night I could get her to talk rationally to me w/o screaming, crying, running off, slamming doors, etc. I spent an hour or two telling her that all the "crap" she does to me is not right, is abuse, etc. I told her that I can't treat her like the "queen" that she asks me to be when she called me an a-hole or a cock sucker the night before, etc. I told her about the control, the nagging the aggressive body language, words, the games, the tests, etc. I told her that she needs to start acting like an adult and not a 13 year old slamming doors saying "I'm not talking to you!" It's BS!

 

She didn't get all of it but she got some. It started to sink in. I explained to her that my loss of feelings and compassion for her are because I've been beaten down for 14.5 years now. I told her that I WILL NOT stick around for it...especially if there is a kid. She MUST change for this to ever work and for me to stay. I also told her that if we do split up...I want her to KNOW that I've felt abused all these years and that it's NOT all my fault. I DON'T want to end the marriage on that note...it would make the rest of my life with her miserable.

 

She again asked me why I never told her it was hurting her...I think "Duh!" how could she not know she was being mean, aggressive, controlling, demeaning and disrespectful. But she apologized twice....I told her that's not what I wanted...but I thanked her.

 

I'm not sure if she's apologizing for her actions or for screwing up things with me. She still fears that I'm going to leave her. She asked me several times if I think this is gonna work. She said she doesn't want to put all this work into it if I'm just gonna leave. That seems pretty crappy. If "all this work" is treating me with respect, having sex once in a while, and reading a few books, then she doesn't get the point.

 

But, we're at a point where we're civil again...I didn't apologize, I didn't kiss her a$$ and the night ended with us being able to deal with each other again.

 

I still don't know where this is going to go, but she's finally seeing how bad she's really been. She's finally seeing that it's not all me, and maybe even seeing why I CANNOT give her little love notes and compliments as long as I feel abused and fearful of her reactions all the time.

 

Yes it was ALL just words, but she knows how big the talk was. I still have a lot of thinking to do, but it was a step.

[Blue Eyed Brain]

A month or so ago when we got into a bad fight she told me that I better not leave her because I'd have to shop and cook for myself and pay the bills myself. I don't know if she's trying to hold me down by saying that or just grasping for whatever she can with her fear that I may leave.

 

Lanky,

 

My H threatens me like this all the time. He told me that if I file for divorce, he would call the wives of my two FRIENDS and tell them that we are close. He would try his hardest to break up many lives then to lose me.....! This shows that there are problems within themselves (your wife/my husband) and it's not all us. We have to live with their forms of guilt - I am at my breaking point....

 

What about you?

[BentSpine]

She said she doesn't want to put all this work into it if I'm just gonna leave. That seems pretty crappy. If "all this work" is treating me with respect, having sex once in a while, and reading a few books, then she doesn't get the point.

You are onto something here.

 

If she truly had understood how you had felt during all the years, and felt remorse, she would act in a way that left no doubt she finds you capable of making your own decisions. And this regardless if you two would separate later on or not.

 

Now the new rule for her is: She apologises not once but twice, and you proceed to back down. Normality is thus restored where she gets a kick out being a drill sergeant (=strong) and therefore not being a follower (=weak) who does 'weak' things such as going to counselling.

 

LankyGuy, how will you ever feel comfortable treating her like a queen without fear she would start treating you as her servant?

[JamesM]

I am not sure if this was mentioned already, but regarding sex....

 

Is it entirely possible that sex is a reminder of her failure to bear children?

 

Sex equals procreation and not recreation.

 

While she may enjoy it, her mind cannot focus on the fact that she CAN have fun, but she focuses on the fact that she CANNOT have children. And since she can't have children, sex has no purpose.

 

Is that possible?

[Blue Eyed Brain]

I am not sure if this was mentioned already, but regarding sex....

 

Is it entirely possible that sex is a reminder of her failure to bear children?

 

Sex equals procreation and not recreation.

 

While she may enjoy it, her mind cannot focus on the fact that she CAN have fun, but she focuses on the fact that she CANNOT have children. And since she can't have children, sex has no purpose.

 

Is that possible?

 

I believe this to be possible. However, we generally start out having sex because of curiosity and then pleasure. Child bearing usually doesn't fall into the picture until our 20 and 30s..... So, even though sex is a tool for pregnancy, it can only over power you if you let it. Which in this case, could be possible. She has many other disorders and this could compound or depression could lead this to become an issue.

[LankyGuy]

I am not sure if this was mentioned already, but regarding sex....

 

Is it entirely possible that sex is a reminder of her failure to bear children?

 

Sex equals procreation and not recreation.

 

While she may enjoy it, her mind cannot focus on the fact that she CAN have fun, but she focuses on the fact that she CANNOT have children. And since she can't have children, sex has no purpose.

 

Is that possible?

 

No, she only found out 2 years ago or so that she's not a candidate to carry a child...sex has been bad for many many years. She was promiscuous in high school and has issues with that still.

 

Actually she COULD carry a child but with RA her doctor has advised against it since she'd have to go off meds. My cousin has RA and just had a baby, and my friend has lupus (much higher risk) and had a kid 3 yrs ago. It can worsen the symptoms, though. We chose to use my wife's eggs and just have a surrogate carry it rather than put her body through the stress...turns out it was a good idea since she was diagnosed with thyroid cancer shortly after the surrogate got pregnant....

[Kasan]

LG--

 

Your wife was diagnosed with thyroid cancer after the surrogate got pregnant?

 

If this is the case, you need to call a huge timeout on everything. I can only imagine all the drugs she is currently taking.

 

How much of the drugs are affecting her personality? Have you researched her drugs to find out what some of the negative affects are? Maybe a consult with her doctor is needed?

 

I think your issues with your wife are more complex than we were led to believe.

[Blue Eyed Brain]

LankyGuy -

 

How are you doing? Better, worse, same?

 

We do try to offer the best advice that we know. I hope it is helping you.

 

Keep us posted.

[LankyGuy]

You are onto something here.

 

If she truly had understood how you had felt during all the years, and felt remorse, she would act in a way that left no doubt she finds you capable of making your own decisions. And this regardless if you two would separate later on or not.

 

Now the new rule for her is: She apologises not once but twice, and you proceed to back down. Normality is thus restored where she gets a kick out being a drill sergeant (=strong) and therefore not being a follower (=weak) who does 'weak' things such as going to counselling.

 

LankyGuy, how will you ever feel comfortable treating her like a queen without fear she would start treating you as her servant?

 

We went to an MC last night an he told her the same thing I do, although I felt it was very superficial. He knows of the verbal abuse but we didn't get into the fact that she wants to control every aspect of my life which has caused me to feel like a prisoner and live in fear of her reactions to anything I say or do. He basically told me I have to let everything go...true, but that's easier said than doen.

 

To me, she has never deserved to be treated like a queen with her treatment of me. If I treat her like a queen it may just propagate her superiority complex. I don't know if I will ever see her as a queen....personally I don't think I look at women that way. They are equals and are flawed just like men are. Anyways, I don't even know if I will ever have feelings for her again.

 

I told the counselor, in front of her, that I cannot stay if I continue feeling the way I do. He agreed. We talked a lot last night afterwards and I told her that for me two stay in the marriage three things have to happen.

 

1. She has to recognize and stop the abusive behavior patterns.

2. She has to let me be my own person and will have to deal with me, my flaws, and how it makes her feel.

3. I have to be able to have feelings for her again.

 

I made it clear that the first two will be extremely hard for her because the behavior is in her core. I also made it clear that the last one will be extremely hard for me because of the length of the abuse. I gave her examples of how she treats me and how she rationalizes it is the same way a physically abusive husband rationalizes it. Also, I explained that as a victim I rationalize her behavior the same way a physical abuse victim does..."Oh, well she loves me but she was upset because I didn't do something right. If I make her happy, she'll stop" etc.

 

In general I don't cry. I only cry at some funerals, but I cried all the way to work yesterday morning and I cried hard in front of her when I was telling her all of this. I am a good guy...I'm not sure how I got into a relationship with such a mean, controlling, abusive, and aggressive woman. I told her that too.

 

She finally gets it now. She finally understands some of the reasons why she doesn't feel loved (the other reason is that she doesn't see all things that I do do for her). She finally understands why I told her "I don't feel it anymore" back in October.

 

The question is, will she ever change and will the damage that she has done to me ever be fixed? I may never have love and respect for her again.

[LankyGuy]

LG--

 

Your wife was diagnosed with thyroid cancer after the surrogate got pregnant?

 

If this is the case, you need to call a huge timeout on everything. I can only imagine all the drugs she is currently taking.

 

How much of the drugs are affecting her personality? Have you researched her drugs to find out what some of the negative affects are? Maybe a consult with her doctor is needed?

 

I think your issues with your wife are more complex than we were led to believe.

 

Yes. The doctor said that had she gotten pregnant they would have waited a year to do the thyroidectomy...it's a very slow growing cancer. Fortunately thyroid cancer is the "best'' cancer to get. She had surgery to have the thyroid removed then they gave her a radioactive iodine pill. The Iodine is only absorbed by the remaining thyroid tissue and there was no physical effect to her. There was no chemo or anything toxic given to her... The lymph nodes weren't affected and she has a 100% prognosis. S

 

She's back on synthroid like she always has been...it's synthetic thyroid hormone...her levels are fine and she says she feels fine, but who knows. Synthroid is a fairly common drug and it manages hypothyroidism so well that most people don't even mention that they have the disesase...lots of my wife's older friends (in their 50s) are on it...

 

For RA she's currently on a drug that is actually an antibody...it has few side effects since it's not really a "drug"...it's a "biological". Her behavior patterns have been the same for well over 10 years...I don't think it's the medication...

 

Personally I've wondered if she's depressed or bipolar. Her mood swings are incredible and can happen in a matter of seconds. Very hard to live with. She does not rationalize ANYTHING.

 

Her biggest problem with me is that she feels the need to control everything I do and everything I say. Anytime I do something that's outside of her expectations or is not what she would do, she takes it as an attack and as evidence that I don't love her.