shadowofman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 How do I know God exist? If we push God away, our heart feel pain and unsatisfying and hopeless, and try to find peace and satisfying in other finite earthly things, but in vain Lovely, this is not proof. It is your personal subjective experience. Millions of people do not believe in God and live happy peaceful lives. This is also not proof that God does not exist. Only their personal subjective experiences. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moai Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 Hey, I'm not the one claiming that something is false, or is a farce.....The very ability to even remotely comprehend science is proof, (to me) that I didn't come from a pool of gook.....or an Ape. What up Moose! It is fairly obvious that you did not come from guk or an ape. I am 99.9% certain that you had human parents. Am I right? If you go far enough back, though, you have ancestors that are the same as ancestors of modern apes; further back, insects, and further back, every living thing. We know this is so because of DNA evidence and the fossil record. Given the Genesis story, why is it preferable to be made from dirt than from primordial soup? Is it because of the wet, or what? And why is a superbeing "breathing" life into humans as they are now by magic a better explanation than life arising naturally? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moai Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 I am pretty aware of the ID arguement, but do they accept evolution as God's (the designer's method)? Some do, some don't. The Discovery Institute, those responsible for "expelled" consider Answers in Genesis, Kent Hovind, and Reasons to believe to be at best misguided and at worst morons. Michael Behe, the ID poster child accepts evolution as long as you start at the level of the cell or thereabouts. Most IDers think that god started it all and then left it alone. When you get out into lay-people (like my mom) those that accept evolution think that it is somehow god-directed. I have not heard this said in so many words, especially when it comes to the evolution of man, but this is just another example of God being pushed into smaller an smaller gaps. I have to admit that it's a bit of a victory for science if this is the case, as long as we can keep ID out of the science classroom. Exactly. God of the Gaps is such an obvious fail it amazes me anyone would invoke it, ever. Seems that most educated christians have accepted evolution as God's way for some time now. Even Pope John Paul endorsed evolution as God's method in 1992. Benedict has since recanted this position I think. I know they still stick to the flood story and all that other magic stuff. Yes, the evolution model was accepted in 1992 at the same time Galileo was pardoned. They sure do keep up with the times, huh? I am also aware the Benedict is a reactionary. It seems to me that he would be an IDer, or and OEC. I recently read that the Dalai Lama (I am not a particular fan) said that if science shows aspects of Buddhism to be false then those doctrines should be abandoned in favor of science. I thought that was pretty cool. Link to post Share on other sites
shadowofman Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 I am actually very interesting in seeing this film. Ben Stein is claiming that IDers are being persecuted against, but I really don't see how. People can claim all day long that "God did it", but I don't see how anyone could expect to get a grant for that, or to win a noble prize, or whatever. There are plenty of theist scientists with high level positions in the scientific community and they aren't claiming persecution. Only the one's that want to press theistic preconceeved notions on the rest of us are being knocked down a notch. It's just not science, and don't pretend it is. That's all we are saying. Link to post Share on other sites
Moose Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 What up Moose!Hey Moai! As you can probably tell, too much.....!! i haven't been able to post a whole lot, or keep up with the conversations.....but I'll tell ya, one of the reasons why is because of your first sentence of post # 1.I have posted many times on many threads the fact that Creationists are liars.Just the tone of that sentence caused me to ignore the thread for the most part. The main reason why is because it's insanity to me anymore. Scientists have been proved to be wrong over and over and over....but we, "creationists" can't call scientists, "liars"......simply because most scientists, or evolutionists THINK that Genesis' account of creation is what we all believe to be the literal absolute. This simply isn't the case. We, "creationists" don't have all of the answers, just like the scientists don't, and we never will.... The mystery of this and all understanding will be granted to both the lost and saved, and all will be like.......DUHHHH...... BTW....I'll be in Vegas in March.....I'll send you details.....hope you're not too busy..... Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 I don't want to speak for Moai but I understood the "liar" accusation as an example of actually knowingly manipulating the truth. There have been a number of examples of this in the last few years. Like in the Dover PA trial, 2 members of to school board lied in court... Or intentionally misquoting the harvard virus video... Stuff like that. I would not accuse a creationist or a scientist of a lie if their theories turn out to be wrong. But presenting data you KNOW is wrong is not ok. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Moai Posted February 2, 2008 Author Share Posted February 2, 2008 Hey Moai! As you can probably tell, too much.....!! i haven't been able to post a whole lot, or keep up with the conversations.....but I'll tell ya, one of the reasons why is because of your first sentence of post # 1.Just the tone of that sentence caused me to ignore the thread for the most part. The main reason why is because it's insanity to me anymore. Scientists have been proved to be wrong over and over and over....but we, "creationists" can't call scientists, "liars"......simply because most scientists, or evolutionists THINK that Genesis' account of creation is what we all believe to be the literal absolute. I wouldn't put you in that category, for one thing. Not all theists are Creationists in the sense that those in AIG are, and I am aware of that. Yes, science can be wrong. However, peer review is a built in part of the process that makes lying extremely difficult (if not impossible). As I am sure you are aware, there is a big difference between deliberately misleading people and simply being wrong. When explanations in science change, it is because of more study and gathering of evidence. Creationists don't study or gather evidence. Most of the people at the Discovery Institute, for example, are lawyers, not biologists. They told the people they were interviewing the movie was about one thing, and once the interviews were finished changed the name of the movie and what it's point was. They use film clips without permission, and change the narration to obfuscate the meaning of the animation. This is illegal and dishonest. Every Creationist website I have visited misrepresents what evolution is, and how our current theory explains it. Given the number of debates that they have they must be either lying on purpose or stupid. And what about the quote book? Quotes from books written by biologists are taken out of context, parts are "ellipsised" out, or even part of one paragraph is taken from the beginning of the book and added to part of a paragraph at the end (!) to make it seem that biologists are "guessing" or that they really don't accept evolution. Do YOU think that this is honest? How would you characterize things like this? I assume that you don't think that a Christian should lie, do you? Can we assume that since these men are obviously lying they aren't Christians? And if that is so, why are they promoting Christianity? This simply isn't the case. We, "creationists" don't have all of the answers, just like the scientists don't, and we never will.... You aren't one of their ilk, amigo. Which make me sad, frankly. You are an honest, caring person who actually makes an effort to live what he believes and understand the world around him, and men like those at AIG or the Discovery Institute mislead people like you--although not you specifically probably. Not only that, while someone like can actually represent your faith in such a way that people might listen, these others turn so many people off that much of the good YOU could share will fall on deaf ears. The mystery of this and all understanding will be granted to both the lost and saved, and all will be like.......DUHHHH...... BTW....I'll be in Vegas in March.....I'll send you details.....hope you're not too busy..... Groovy! Keep me posted! Link to post Share on other sites
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