kchiapet95 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Are you or were you a JW? I was at one point...and your thoughts echo EXACTLY what I believed at one point. Hope I'm not insulting you if you still believe, but I am SO glad those days are gone. I was foolish and fearful. ETA, read your posts and assuming you're "worldly" now. LOL! Link to post Share on other sites
kchiapet95 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 To answer the question, I'd have to say, if I'm forced to believe there's a God and a heaven, I'm gonna go with no, dogs don't go to heaven, based on what I read in the Bible. Someone mentioned a really excellent point that during the flood God killed all the animals except for 2 of each species, and so clearly he doesn't think much of animals except for something to provide human amusement. That's not how I feel, of course, but since I have to operate under this assumption, that is what I think. Link to post Share on other sites
SpanksTheMonkey Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 To answer the question, I'd have to say, if I'm forced to believe there's a God and a heaven, I'm gonna go with no, dogs don't go to heaven, based on what I read in the Bible. Someone mentioned a really excellent point that during the flood God killed all the animals except for 2 of each species, and so clearly he doesn't think much of animals except for something to provide human amusement. That's not how I feel, of course, but since I have to operate under this assumption, that is what I think. I see what your saying about the floods but just for arguments sake for a min here. Hes also killed lots and lots of humans with natural disasters as well no dose he think any less of us as well? I'm not really a believer in the churches idea of god per say but I just found that interesting sorry didn't mean to go off topic at all. Seams allot here believe humans are the only species with a soul I find that interesting as well. That we think so much of ourselves to think were the only creatures on the planet with souls. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Seeing that I am forced to assume that God and heaven are real I think one has to take a closer look at the idea of a soul. A soul is what is going to eventually going to be going to heaven or hell and to enter heaven one has to accept God. I think that these two "rules" are pretty clear in most forms a scripture and this leads us to the following conclusions. 1. Dogs do not have souls, as most people of religion believe that God has only blessed humans with having a soul. 2. On the off chance that a dog does have a soul, a dog does not seem capable of accepting God into its heart and therefore is not allowed into heaven. The implications of this go much much deeper than just dogs though. Most people of religion will contend that an aborted fetus does have a soul but seeing how this fetus is not capable of accepting god it will be denied entry into heaven. Or lets take a child born with vegetative retardation, it has a soul but it still not capable of accepting god and will also be denied entry into heaven. But god gave us all our free will and those examples are maybe unfair because both the fetus and the disabled child never physically even had the chance to make any free willed decisions. Maybe it is enough to just have a soul. But what about the millions of people who lived and died and never even heard the word of god? They may have led lives as wonderful people but they never even knew they had to accept god and so they will then of course be denied entry into heaven. Well maybe since they didn't know any better they get special treatment?? Maybe? That sounds kind of nice. I mean if you think your puppy is going to get a free ticket through the gates then surely these poor souls will as well?? It really kind of seems like this whole heaven thing is a selective place but some cults will pride themselves as being the selective few. So what do you do with all those souls who don't make the grade and get into heaven? It sounds like limbo is going to be a pretty full place. And of course all the really "bad" souls will be spending an eternity in hell being tortured. And this is where is all just falls apart for me. Why would a god that gave us a soul and free will really even be interested in sending us to hell? I have met some really messed up people in my life and but a lot of times they didn't get that way on their own. Why would god send the good Christian girl, who grew up with all the advantages life had to offer to heaven and in the same stroke send a girl to hell who was raped her entire child hood and ended up a drug addicted prostitute. This all seems to arbitrary and in the end childish. Link to post Share on other sites
kchiapet95 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Hes also killed lots and lots of humans with natural disasters as well no dose he think any less of us as well? Yes. That's how I feel about it. What I got from reading the Bible, was that all humans are pawns in God's universal sovreignty game. I don't think positively of religion/God at all. Link to post Share on other sites
SpanksTheMonkey Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 (edited) Yes. That's how I feel about it. What I got from reading the Bible, was that all humans are pawns in God's universal sovreignty game. I don't think positively of religion/God at all. I kinda feel the same way I just can't get into a god with so many guide lines judgments and rules myself but hey if it works for others great And if your wondering about my avatar I think the idea of Jesus playing grid iron is hilarious thats all no offense meant lol.. Edited February 5, 2008 by SpanksTheMonkey Link to post Share on other sites
littlekitty Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Yes animals go to heaven. I believe one day, sadly , my kitties will have to leave me to go chase butterflies over the rainbow bridge! I was quite intrigued in Thailand to hear their beliefs around dogs. The Thai's believe that dogs are former theives (or bad people). Therefore they have been reincarnated as dogs. If they are a good dog, they may find themselves an owner and prove to be a good dog. Good dogs get collars! However, the Thai are not allowed to cull dogs. They rarely like to spay/neuter either. They are not allow to put a hurt dog out of it's misery, not are they allowed to hurt them. Link to post Share on other sites
kchiapet95 Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 None taken, believe me! I was raised JW, got a lot of religious education and training, and it helped make me who I am today. It gives my family hope and good for them, I'm happy. But as for me, the rigidity crushed my spirit, sent me reeling, and I'm still trying to figure out where I fit in. When my grandmother died, my mom was anxious and upset about where she was. My grandmother was a Baptist. (Keep in mind, JWs believe that only 144,000 get into heaven, all other good Christians live on a Paradise earth, but they have to wait until God acts to turn the earth back into a Paradise--complicated) So my mom is upset and she confides in an elder about how she was feeling. He says to her, "God is a merciful, loving and just God, and he always does what is right. So you can be sure that whatever God decides to do, it's the right thing." She got great comfort from that--but I didn't. It's just so arbitrary, so selective and whether it's heaven, Paradise, 40 virgins, whatever, it's like, I don't want any part of it, at this point. I'm not trying to kill anyone else's happiness, more power to ya if that makes you happy but don't try to convert me. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Seeing that I am forced to assume that God and heaven are real I think one has to take a closer look at the idea of a soul. A soul is what is going to eventually going to be going to heaven or hell and to enter heaven one has to accept God. I think that these two "rules" are pretty clear in most forms a scripture and this leads us to the following conclusions. I fully agree: We are told that humans are given souls, but I don't recall any Gospel passages that talk about that sort of grace for animals, just that God cares for the wee beasties and knows what even the sparrow does. As far as entry to heaven, nothing. And I imagine because we like to humanize things, we imagine that critters deserve heaven just like we do. Only God knows for sure, as lame as that sounds. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 The implications of this go much much deeper than just dogs though. Most people of religion will contend that an aborted fetus does have a soul but seeing how this fetus is not capable of accepting god it will be denied entry into heaven. Or lets take a child born with vegetative retardation, it has a soul but it still not capable of accepting god and will also be denied entry into heaven. an aborted fetus (whether intentionally or spontaneously aborted through miscarriage) exists in a certain state of grace, and my guess is that because those embryos haven't had the chance to execute free will TO actively sin, the merit heaven by that natural state of grace. At least this is the current thinking of Catholic theologians ... I'd think that the child born with vegetative retardation falls under the same conditions, as he's not capable of executing free will to sin. But that's MY line of thinking, as feeble as it is compared to the Big Guy's ... But what about the millions of people who lived and died and never even heard the word of God? … Why would a god that gave us a soul and free will really even be interested in sending us to hell? … Why would god send the good Christian girl, who grew up with all the advantages life had to offer to heaven and in the same stroke send a girl to hell who was raped her entire childhood and ended up a drug addicted prostitute. This all seems to arbitrary and in the end childish. I think the difference we're looking at here boils down once again to free will, of freely choosing to be "good" or choosing the option. If someone ignorant of God still follows His mandate "Love one another as I have loved you," he's in agreement with that supernatural law whether he knows it or not ... and surely benefits the rewards of someone who knows God and chooses to follow his mandate, because he offers salvation to all – Jesus didn't just die for Bible-thumping believers. He died for everyone. the folks who merit hell are the ones who reject – knowingly or unknowingly – the above mandate, who instead of practicing love, they choose to practice otherwise, ruining their relationships with others because of their selfishness. So the good little Christian girl with all the benefits still can choose an eternity in Hell by her choices, the same way the drug-addicted prostitute merits heaven. It all boils down to what they ultimately choose or reject. you, lovelorcet, are of a scientific bent, so you understand and appreciate the concept of evolution, how when the conditions are "right" the process of evolution can take place. How change is possible. same thing goes with spiritual evolution – the soul is not static, there's always room for change, whether it's change for the better or for the worse, therefore there's always hope for the hopeless sinner. THAT'S what the gift of salvation is about: Knowing that you can be part of it if you so choose, you're not cut off for life just because you're doing things harmful to your relationship with self, with others, with God ... man's final destination (Heaven or Hell) isn't arbitrary when you look at it in these terms, because you realize you have a say in it. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I think the difference we're looking at here boils down once again to free will, of freely choosing to be "good" or choosing the option. If someone ignorant of God still follows His mandate "Love one another as I have loved you," he's in agreement with that supernatural law whether he knows it or not ... and surely benefits the rewards of someone who knows God and chooses to follow his mandate, because he offers salvation to all – Jesus didn't just die for Bible-thumping believers. He died for everyone. the folks who merit hell are the ones who reject – knowingly or unknowingly – the above mandate, who instead of practicing love, they choose to practice otherwise, ruining their relationships with others because of their selfishness. So the good little Christian girl with all the benefits still can choose an eternity in Hell by her choices, the same way the drug-addicted prostitute merits heaven. It all boils down to what they ultimately choose or reject. I can go along with the state of grace idea for the unborn child and the frozen embryos around the world. But where does that state of grace start and end? Does an abused child also receive some sort of grace? Look at it like this, a child who has been continually raped and beaten by her father her whole life. It is no wonder that she ends up being a mess as an adult. But if her father repents at some point before he dies, he get to go to heaven and she gets to go to hell because she could not deal with it?? I just don't see why an all powerful and loving god would have the need to send her to hell. If there is a grace then I would think that we are all in it or out of it. Link to post Share on other sites
MakeLemonade Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I'm really sorry I started reading this thread. In the end I think that we all came from one source...if you want to call it God, then so be it. And if we all came from God, why would God turn any of us away from or deny us the next step on our journey? All life is energy...and energy doesn't go anywhere...it remains...all around us. It can change forms but it's essence remains. This is well said. Everyone usually thinks of all of this in too human of terms. The concepts of heaven, hell, limbo, etc. and the images invoked therein were put in our heads by people who wrote books. While I believe a divine/omniscient/all powerful? entity may have spoken to said people to a degree as to certain things that belonged in those books. I believe much of the books are simply history books. I believe in spiritual evolution, an omniscient being who helped it all come about and an afterlife but one unlike the pearly gated, demon infested choices presented to us in mainstream religion, I do not believe anything that an organized religion tells me is the way it is, simply because they said it is. This is not the way I was raised however, it is my own belief system I have developed after years of learning about both the bible and the history of the earth. Our energy (soul) is returned from whence it came, richer for the experiences we have had on this planet. All living things have energy. All dogs go to heaven. All things do. Not trying to tell anyone this is the way it is, this is just what I believe. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 I can go along with the state of grace idea for the unborn child and the frozen embryos around the world. But where does that state of grace start and end? Does an abused child also receive some sort of grace? AFAIK these unbaptized infants go to limbo, that was what I was taught in catholic school. Look at it like this, a child who has been continually raped and beaten by her father her whole life. It is no wonder that she ends up being a mess as an adult. But if her father repents at some point before he dies, he get to go to heaven and she gets to go to hell because she could not deal with it?? Theoretically, the abused girl does have a choice in how she handles the "crosses she must bear." We all suffer. We deal with that suffering differently. Just because you suffer does not automatically mean you turn to darkness. Turning to darkness is a choice. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 AFAIK these unbaptized infants go to limbo, that was what I was taught in catholic school. Ya, I mentioned that in a previous post so there must be a lot of souls in limbo. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Ya, I mentioned that in a previous post so there must be a lot of souls in limbo. Ok I just found this: http://chatterbyrondavis.blogspot.com/2007/04/no-more-limbo.html Apparently in 2007 pope benedict decided that there really isn't a limbo and that unbaptized babies DO go to heaven. So there goes that theory. But purgatory still exists. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Ok I just found this: http://chatterbyrondavis.blogspot.com/2007/04/no-more-limbo.html Apparently in 2007 pope benedict decided that there really isn't a limbo and that unbaptized babies DO go to heaven. So there goes that theory. But purgatory still exists. Is this just kind of making it up as you go??? Maybe someday well heaved atheist will get into heaven as well?? Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 Yes. That's how I feel about it. What I got from reading the Bible, was that all humans are pawns in God's universal sovreignty game. I don't think positively of religion/God at all. I feel that way too, about the pawn thing, except I'm worried God really does exist, and yet still treats us this way, so people get stroked one minute and stomped on the next. That is what life is like, so the most common sense conclusion is that life reflects what God is like. He stomps on us about half the time. And it is all OK because it makes sense to Him, even though we're flattened?! But purgatory still exists. Lol! (I'm not trying to be snarky towards you, BO, but I'm cynical about the Church right now.) Did Limbo exist before while theologians deemed it True all those years and then go poof at the moment Pope Benedict infallibly declared it isn't real? Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 limbo was just a mere suggestion, so to speak, postulated by theologians to "solve" the questions of where unborn babies went. Big Ben came along and said, "nice thought, but there's no evidence, only speculation. Let's stick with the facts as we know 'em." LLcet, not sure why you're convinced that someone who's experienced something as sordid as sexual abuse is damned to hell. There's always room for jello ... er, conversion. That's part of the whole spiritual journey: It's not stagnant or static, but it's an ever-evolving thing. So someone who is a sinner all their life still has God's merciful offer to repent, to give up sin and be a more godly person; the victim of sexual abuse doesn't have to sin just because of their victimhood ... that person still has the option to be a good, loving, godly person, too. it all boils down to how you respond to the situations you're in, be they good, bad or someplace in between. The person who finds a bag of unclaimed money has just as much a possibility of giving in to greed and stealing that money instead of turning it over to the rightful owners or the authorities as does the sexually abused prostitute has the possibility to stop hurting him/herself by degradation because he/she realizes his/her worth as a child of God. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 5, 2008 Share Posted February 5, 2008 LLcet, not sure why you're convinced that someone who's experienced something as sordid as sexual abuse is damned to hell. There's always room for jello ... er, conversion. That's part of the whole spiritual journey: It's not stagnant or static, but it's an ever-evolving thing. So someone who is a sinner all their life still has God's merciful offer to repent, to give up sin and be a more godly person; the victim of sexual abuse doesn't have to sin just because of their victimhood ... that person still has the option to be a good, loving, godly person, too. it all boils down to how you respond to the situations you're in, be they good, bad or someplace in between. The person who finds a bag of unclaimed money has just as much a possibility of giving in to greed and stealing that money instead of turning it over to the rightful owners or the authorities as does the sexually abused prostitute has the possibility to stop hurting him/herself by degradation because he/she realizes his/her worth as a child of God. I never said that such a person id damned to hell. What I am saying is if you take an innocent child and beat the living hell out of it for about 18 years you there is a pretty good chance that you are going to end up with an adult that is messed up. When did that child fall out of grace then? How can that person be judged? I just think that this whole idea of good and evil heaven or hell is childish. This is just a bed time story but pimped up for adults. I want to lead a more or less happy life and it seems pretty obvious to me that in order to do that I need to interact in some sort of way with the society around me to do that. To help me with that my brain has evolved a special tool called empathy. That helps me deal with the people in a very effective way. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 (edited) we are all messed up in one way or another. what we do and don't do have nothing to do with salvation. A sinner who did many bad things can be saved just as same as a person who try to do good things in his whole life. Why? because our righteousness is like filthy rag when compare to God's goodness. what we do cannot save us. In Bible there are many serious sinners were saved. some are prostitutes, some are thief, even one disciple who commanded others to kill Christians. But there is one common factor in all these sinners, that they are hunger for God's goodness and love, willing to change themselves. Christian belief more focus on God's grace, whoever believe in Jesus Christ, Lord will send them Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit changes us from inside and guide us to do the works God wants us to do. more focus on Love relationship with God, if we have that relationship, we want to obey God, not forced to. like if you love one person, you want to do whatever to please him. Obedience is like by-product, not the very aim. If you don't have a close relationship with God, to abide by those rules seems too oppressed. but everything and every perspective change if you have that personal relationship with God. Everyone is given amount of grace of God, receive it or not, depends on themselves. God doesn't stop giving His grace to anyone, God's grace also presents in unbelievers' lives, just they didn't realize that yet. Edited February 6, 2008 by Lovelybird Link to post Share on other sites
Letranger Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I like LovelyBird's post. Well written. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 yeah, but she didnt mention anything about dogs which is why i alerted on her post In heaven there are flying dogs, maybe Link to post Share on other sites
shadowofman Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 To answer someones question, I am not nor have I ever been a JW. But many of my friends are and were. I do love their theology though as compared to other christians. It seems more literal and at the same time more moral. It's like they say, "If you went to war, you could rest assured that it's won't be a JW killing you." I also love their conspiracy-like theories on politics, other religions, etc. I relate to most of it. Also I love to adopt JW theology and argue with more mainstream christians about the interpretations of the scriptures. Throws them for a loop as long as you don't mention JWs. This will immediately cause them to close their minds to your interpretations, and dismiss you as a lunatic. lol Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 heaven there are flying dogs, maybe I think the debate is more about if they get in not really about if they can fly there. Link to post Share on other sites
shadowofman Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 What about a pitbull that is raised to be a fighting dog and then kills a human? Did this dog make a bad moral choice and therefore condemed to hell? Are you still there JamesM? Are you getting some good answers? Link to post Share on other sites
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