How does the MM really feel about the OW?

[herenow]

I don't have much time today, but I also wanted to add that, had my H not done what he did to dig deep to find out why he made the choice he did, I'm quite sure the problem would have gotten worse. I also know that we would not be married anymore.

[OWoman]

Whiteflower, tow dippers is a term I read on a thread here a while back and it certainly resonated with me at the time. Go here for the article http://www.gloryb.com/emerald/archives/viewnews.cgi?id=1049308263

 

It's basically the MMs that leave their marriages and truly believe the M is behind them and they are ready to move on, then for whatever reason down the line they decide to go back.

 

Thanks for the link LF. I went cold reading it - because I know that without counselling, my MM would have been one of those. Partners who have been abused sustainedly over years internalise the abuser's perspective of them, and really don't believe that they're "capable" or "worthy" of a normal, adult relationship and even once they've escaped the abuse, small set backs or residual doubts can send them running back to the abuser (or another one). It's a common pattern with battered women, so I suppose why SHOULD it be different if the genders are reversed, and the abuse emotional / psychological / social and not physical?

 

The point the article raised about the dynamic making the W into the bitch also resonates - I think that partners who've learned unhealthy relating patterns in abusive relationships need to unlearn those actively, and learn / forge new ones in the new relationship to avoid slipping into the "comfort" or the old ways with a new partner. It takes hard work not to fall into that trap - I've seen with my MM at times that his (unconscious) responses to small things are sometimes inappropriate, and grounded in survival tactics to deflect or minimise his W's abuse.

 

I can understand that some of those OWs slip into the "abusive partner" role vacated by the W in response to the "abused partner" behaviour the MM may bring into their R, having fled his M, slowly and unconsciously over time, because they want their R with the MM to work and that dynamic will, given the history. It must be an awful realisation down the road that they've become the evil abusive W they "saved" the MM from!

 

Thanks for the link LF - I'll pass it on to MM to add to the list of things to discuss with his counsellor.

[White Flower]

I don't have much time today, but I also wanted to add that, had my H not done what he did to dig deep to find out why he made the choice he did, I'm quite sure the problem would have gotten worse. I also know that we would not be married anymore.

Thanks for your response, HN. It is a wonderful thing that your H was willing to get IC and MC in order to fix himself, and then the M. I'm happy for you.

 

I just wonder what my MM feels. I don't believe he has a control problem or addiction. He acts, in sure, like he loves his W in her presence, but you don't believe he is if he's P with me. I wonder...

 

I suppose I wonder because when you truly love someone you give them everything you have. Your home, your life that you built--finances, retirement, etc., etc., and it's hard to comprehend that someone who loves you (OW) can still ensure that the W still gets all that. Isn't that the deeper love? To ensure that the W is pampered and will never have to worry about a thing? (Except discovery of an A, of course).

[nadiaj2727]

I don't agree with the lying to anybody means you can't be happy...People tell white lies every day to keep from hurting others and are happy...Besides, I KNOW when he's lying now...I figured out his cues...

 

With all due respect GEL I wasn't talking about little white lies like telling my mom he likes her apple pie, I was talking about actively living a double life... lying to OW, causing OW to lie to people to conceal their relationship, lying to W, lying to himself, etc. To me there's a huge difference, and I don't feel like anyone who actively deceives everyone in his life can truly be happy. It goes along with what you say later in this post, that if OW makes him happy, he will leave. If he stays, it just shows that neither W or OW make him happy enough to be with her and only her. (Or, in my opinion, it means he is an unhappy person who would be unhappy even if he was totally alone or whatever).

 

I also started to figure out xMM's lying "cues" so I know exactly what you mean. At first I was like "yay, I know him so well, he can't even lie to me, because I can tell." But then it began to make me mad, like, "why does he even lie to me? He must think I'm stupid and he must not respect me. And/or he must just lie as a way of life, he doesn't even *know* when he's lying!" I didn't want to be with a liar, I wanted to be with someone who believed in telling the truth... minus a few little white lies like he likes my mom's apple pie. I decided that I cannot love a liar.

 

I think that the I can't divorce is often an excuse, but it's usually seen as a very valid one to the MM...Hurting his W, his children, extended family, losing money, property, image are all very real and scary to them...But in the end if they love their OW and they want to be happy, they'll do it...But they can't have any romantic love for their W or they won't leave...

 

I agree that if MM really wants to be with OW and he really loves her, he'll leave. It goes back to what I was saying before, that if he's unhappy and he knows OW makes him happy and he doesn't want to live a double life, he will be with OW. Or if he knows that staying married makes him happy, he will break it off with OW. Some men just think that having *both* make them happy, which is a real problem for both W and OW.

 

I think the problem is, a lot of OW think their MM is in the category that truly loves her and will leave his M for her when he actually isn't. They don't find out about this until they're strung along for a long time or they have a D-Day followed by NC. That kind of devastation is really hurtful and that's why I advise OW to look at actions over words (especially knowing MM is lying by living two lives). I advise them to wait and see if MM is so unhappy that he'll get divorced before they get too emotionally involved.

 

Men who leave are ones who weren't happy to begin with...If they were happy, they aren't going anywhere...

 

Agreed. But lots of unhappily married men stay married for whatever reason. And al ot of cake-eaters are happy in the marriage and happy to have OW, too (those are the ones I guess you mean when you say they're happy and they aren't going anywhere). I agree they can't be truly happy until they figure out which life they want and go for it. If they really love OW like they say, they will go get her, not wait around saying "my marriage is unhappy, but I'm staying..." making OW unhappy in the process.

 

PS thank you for the lively dialogue

[nadiaj2727]

What really floors me is so many people hang on and on believing empty promises, wasting precious years of their lives. So sad.

 

That's the part I can't understand. I understand OW who *like* being OW and don't mind that MM is married, and wouldn't want him to get divorced. I understand OW who have realized their MM isn't getting divorced, or at least not anytime soon, and would rather stay with him and have what they can from him than banish him from their life. I can also understand the beginning stages where there is no talk of leaving or staying, just following through on feelings and neither party being sure of the future. (Not saying I agree with either of those options, but I can at least partly understand them and have been through some of them myself.)

 

What I don't understand are OW who hear over and over "I'm leaving, I want to be with you" and never see any action, and still stay, and are repeatedly heartbroken because of it. I can only hear something so many times and not see any follow-through before I start to realize the person has no intention of doing what they've been saying. Sure, sometimes love is blind and I need it pointed out to me... hence my coming to LS way back when. But once I *realize* hes been saying one thing and doing another, it's bye bye time. No matter how much I loved someone, if he doesn't want to be with me and only me, or if he says he wants that but shows me otherwise by never following through, he is not the right person for me.

[GreenEyedLady]

I agree that if MM really wants to be with OW and he really loves her, he'll leave.

 

I think the problem is, a lot of OW think their MM is in the category that truly loves her and will leave his M for her when he actually isn't.

 

But lots of unhappily married men stay married for whatever reason.

 

making OW unhappy in the process.

 

Love alone does not mean that he will leave...It has to be a myriad of things that will give him the courage (balls?) to leave...

 

She has to fill pretty much all of his needs, not just love and sex...He has to see his life being better with her, eventually...He has to have made peace with the fact that he will be hurting several people (if there's children)...He has to reconcile all the things he's ever thought about duty and commitment...It's really alot of things that MM have to do if they are actually going to get a D and move forward and feel they've handled it the best way that they can...

 

And as for OW really thinking that their MM will leave, I don't think there are that many that really think that...I didn't think that...I thought we would get caught and that would be the end...It wasn't until last year that I thought he actually would...And I knew it when he started walking the walk and putting his actions with his words...

 

If he hasn't spent the night with you, or spent time with your children or family or met your friends or coworkers, he's not leaving any time soon...If he can look at you crying and still leave, he's staying put...If he tells you he still loves his W, there is no chance...And even if he has done those things, it doesn't mean it's a sure thing...

 

Lastly, I don't believe that it is the MM, per se, that makes the OW unhappy...She makes herself unhappy because she doesn't demand that her needs be met...Because she wants something that her partner can't/won't give her...So you either have to accept and enjoy what you have for the time being or leave...And sometimes the leaving part is what actually spurs them into action...That's how it happened for me...And I knew he loved me, but I couldn't do it anymore so I told him that I was done and I walked away...For me, so that I could be happy...

 

We are not responsible for making anyone but ourselves happy...Now if you want a good R and you love the person, then of course you want and try to make them happy...But when it comes down to it, we choose to let others make us unhappy...Or we wouldn't allow some of the things we allow go on in R's...

 

GEL

[nadiaj2727]

 

And as for OW really thinking that their MM will leave, I don't think there are that many that really think that...I didn't think that...I thought we would get caught and that would be the end...It wasn't until last year that I thought he actually would...And I knew it when he started walking the walk and putting his actions with his words...

 

If he hasn't spent the night with you, or spent time with your children or family or met your friends or coworkers, he's not leaving any time soon...If he can look at you crying and still leave, he's staying put...If he tells you he still loves his W, there is no chance...And even if he has done those things, it doesn't mean it's a sure thing...

 

Hmmm I'm not sure about other OW. I know that I thought mine would leave, or else I never would have been with him. He told me he was leaving, he moved out of their house and into his own place and spent just about every single night and day with me, he told me he didn't love her (in that way), etc. Maybe he was a TOW dipper (a term I just recently learned . Maybe he would have left had I waited long enough (which is what he insisted until the day I instilled NC and refused to talk to him anymore). Regardless I got tired of waiting on him, I began to realize that he didn't want to leave that badly if he wasn't filing for divorce. I agree with you that it takes cojones, mine had none. I wasn't going to hold his hand and walk him through it, it had to be his decision, done of his own free will, and it just wasn't happening. I feel there are a *lot* of other OW on here waiting for their MM to leave and thinking they will... or posting heartbroken when they realize MM chose his wife over her. I know I couldn't have continued to be with xMM if I thought he would get caught and then we would be over... at the time I thought I loved him too much and I was only with him when I thought he was leaving and making it official so he could begin fresh with me. Then I realized I loved *myself* too much to sit around waiting on him to take action. I think some other OW I've read on here come to that same conclusion, others still have hope that he is leaving, when all signs (actions) point the opposite direction.

[GreenEyedLady]

I don't want to argue with you...

 

I think you misunderstood when I said that OW doesn't think the MM will leave...What I really meant was that she doesn't know if he will or not...

 

How many OW on this forum come here and say,"Yes, my MM is leaving for me!" None unless he is actively leaving the home, filing for D etc...

 

I know I thought he would get caught, that'd be the end of it...But the longer we were together, the more we fell in love and eventually he did leave...But that wouldn't have been the outcome I'd have predicted the day I found out he was married...

 

OW have it thrown in their faces all the time that MM never leave...They don't expect them to, but they sure hope for it...

 

Now that's what I really meant to say in my first post, but the words didn't come out right...

[mopar crazy]

This IS love in or out of an affair. Love is ALL about making the other person happy and is so doing make yourself happy. And this is WHO the person is...someone who knows how to make another human being happy. This in my book is an admirable quality.

 

I agree marlena, to some point, but from what H has told me about the A he didn't do much for the OW to make her happy. Sure, he took her out to eat a few times, paid for a hotel (which she asked him to pay for as she had no $) so they all could go out of state w/ her two children for a weekend away. She invited him, it was her plans. She bought him some nice Von Maur shirts, and a nice watch from the jewelry store. See, xOW was after my H years prior to their A. She did everything for him to make HIM happy but he didn't do much to make her happy. I think she was satisfied that he left me for her and they were together. He loved that when he walked into the room her face would light up. She paid attention to him, made him feel wanted. I didn't do these things, I didn't act like that to him and it was b/c of how our M was. You can only take so much of a man coming home 4-5 nights a week drunk off his ass and being gone all the time w/ his friends.

Yes, the OW did love my H, but in reality, he didn't love her, he loved the way she treated him. Two different things.

[silktricks]

Yes, the OW did love my H, but in reality, he didn't love her, he loved the way she treated him. Two different things.

 

This is a really fine line, and one that I don't think many people really "get". It's also IMO a key to understanding what makes many MM "tick". Almost all BS say it's all about the MM. And there is something to that, as what it seems they are looking for is someone who treats them special.

 

Maybe depression plays more into the root cause of affairs than we know.....

[White Flower]

This is a good thing to point out. So many women - and I'm sure most of us have done this at least once, on differing levels - subconsciously think "if I show him how much I love him by doing all these nice, sweet things, he'll reciprocate eventually, right? He says he loves me, so he must, right?" What many women are really settling for is the time and attention he's willing to give, but total respect and consideration? Are we really seeing that, or are we seeing the bones that are tossed, and we label them indicators of a man's "love" for us with the hope that more will come later if we just show them over a long enough period of time how to really love a person without condition?

I understand these last two posts and wanted to chime in.

 

When a single man falls in love with a single woman it always matters how they make each other feel. I think, years later, when one or the other wanders it is to find that feeling again. And what usually happens, or sometimes at least, is the discovery of a deeper connection; a deeper feeling.

 

Also, I don't believe in unconditional love. Everything has a condition including love. You hear it all the time here at LS. "Dump the cheating b++++ if she cannot be loyal." If love was so unconditional, a man wouldn't dump his wife for cheating. He would love her and keep her anyway.

[silktricks]

I understand these last two posts and wanted to chime in.

 

When a single man falls in love with a single woman it always matters how they make each other feel. I think, years later, when one or the other wanders it is to find that feeling again. And what usually happens, or sometimes at least, is the discovery of a deeper connection; a deeper feeling.

 

Also, I don't believe in unconditional love. Everything has a condition including love. You hear it all the time here at LS. "Dump the cheating b++++ if she cannot be loyal." If love was so unconditional, a man wouldn't dump his wife for cheating. He would love her and keep her anyway.

 

Absolutely!! Please don't misunderstand where I was coming from. The point I was trying (apparently ineffectually) to make is that whether or not you (that's you the OP, you the MP, or you the BS) wants to be with another person is because of how they make you feel.

 

The MM doesn't go out saying "I want to fall in love with someone, so I'm looking to fall in love". Rather they are (other than serial cheaters) more open and available to meeting someone because they are not FEELING LOVED. They don't feel special - and they need to. I'm NOT going to say that is anyone's fault - it may be, but it may not be. It's just the way it is. That was what I meant with the comment regarding depression.

[nadiaj2727]

I don't want to argue with you...

 

I think you misunderstood when I said that OW doesn't think the MM will leave...What I really meant was that she doesn't know if he will or not...

 

How many OW on this forum come here and say,"Yes, my MM is leaving for me!" None unless he is actively leaving the home, filing for D etc...

 

I know I thought he would get caught, that'd be the end of it...But the longer we were together, the more we fell in love and eventually he did leave...But that wouldn't have been the outcome I'd have predicted the day I found out he was married...

 

OW have it thrown in their faces all the time that MM never leave...They don't expect them to, but they sure hope for it...

 

Now that's what I really meant to say in my first post, but the words didn't come out right...

 

Thanks for explaining, I don't want to argue with you either. I understood what you meant the first time, I know your position but seriously thanks for explaining. Both you and I want OWs to be happy. In my opinion there are a lot more unhappy OW on here than happy OW. There are very few happy endings here, but I agree with you that most OW hope for a happy ending. I just want them to be happy which to me means strong, independent, and self-aware... not keep letting themselves have false promises that are repeatedly broken. A lot of the posts on here are miserable and break my heart, and they remind me of me back then. I was one of (I believe) many OW who truly thought MM was my soul mate only to discover that he was a fence-sitting cake-eater and I had been naive. I have done a lot of reading on it by therapists and specialists, and it seems to me that that is most always the text book case. It seems to ring true on this board as well. That's just where I'm coming from. I did not mean to argue with you, I was just giving my opinion. Thanks.

[nadiaj2727]

Also, I don't believe in unconditional love. Everything has a condition including love. You hear it all the time here at LS. "Dump the cheating b++++ if she cannot be loyal." If love was so unconditional, a man wouldn't dump his wife for cheating. He would love her and keep her anyway.

 

I think that unconditional love does exist, it's just rare. I agree with you that if a man dumps his wife for cheating, that is not unconditional love, and I don't like when people advise him to do that here on LS or anywhere else. But some men stay with their wife who has cheated, and they work it out together, because he has unconditional love for her and he wants to be there for her despite what she has done to hurt him. I think it *can* exist, and it is something I admire when it hear that it happens. It is just much less common than conditional love.

[Tomcat33]

I think the only love that is unconditional is the type of love that a parent/child can have. Romantic love always has conditions, no matter how you look at it it's impossible to achieve true unconditional love in romance.

 

If unconditional love exists then there is no point making a vow to charish, love, respect, and honour another human being because in the absence of all those things love should still be present, and we all know it is NOT like that.

[silktricks]

I think the only love that is unconditional is the type of love that a parent/child can have.

 

I hear what you're saying, TC, and agree about the marriage vows, etc. I just don't know that even parent/child love is really unconditional. I think (and I grant, it's just my opinion) that every kind of love, even parental/child love, has certain conditions attached.

 

For example, I love my children. I would not, however, be willing to continue a relationship with my grown children if they would be abusive towards me. Would I stop loving them? I don't know. It would probably depend on the abuse and their attitudes. I know that's an extreme example, and we are ranging far afield on this thread, but it seems an interesting topic. Maybe it should be a thread of its own.

 

And I don't think that a spouse forgiving a straying partner is actually an example of unconditional love. I think it's just that the conditions they have are either different, or the attitude displayed by the WS is such that forgiveness can be extended. That doesn't make the love unconditional, though. (IMO)

Edited February 11, 2008 by silktricks

[Tomcat33]

I hear what you're saying, TC, and agree about the marriage vows, etc. I just don't know that even parent/child love is really unconditional. I think (and I grant, it's just my opinion) that every kind of love, even parental/child love, has certain conditions attached.

 

For example, I love my children. I would not, however, be willing to continue a relationship with my grown children if they would be abusive towards me. Would I stop loving them? I don't know. It would probably depend on the abuse and their attitudes. I know that's an extreme example, and we are ranging far afield on this thread, but it seems an interesting topic. Maybe it should be a thread of its own.

 

And I don't think that a spouse forgiving a straying partner is actually an example of unconditional love. I think it's just that the conditions they have are either different, or the attitude displayed by the WS is such that forgiveness can be extended. That doesn't make the love unconditional, though. (IMO)

 

 

I agree with everything you said and no I don't think that was an extreme example, you have to use extreme examples to illustrate what unconditional love is all about. I don't have kids but have parents and I feel unconditional love towards my parents, mind you I was never abused by them either phsycially or sexually or verbally, they are not perfect but there was none of that and I feel like I love them unconditionally. They drive me up the walls at times but I would be lost without them in my life.

On the flip side I have had men drive me up the walls and when the relaionship failed I was not lost without them...

 

 

I especially agree on the last part, a spouse forgiving a cheating spouse is NOT unconditional love at all, unconditional love says, "I accept you with your faults and will not leave your side no matter what" in an affair recovery there are all kinds of conditions that are set that need to be met by the cheating spouse in order for the forgiveness to happen. BUT sometimes what happens is these conditions are not met and the BS still stays in the marriage giving the impression they love unconditionally and perhaps they do, but I see it more as accepting the fact they cannot change their spouse and therefore settle for less in order to have them by their side.

[Tomcat33]

Exactly! And this, also, is why I think many people stay on and on with a MM/MW who continue to promises they never plan to keep. They feel they've gotten the best they can get. We've all read posts by folks who've been with their MP for years; 3, 5, or more years. And they still believe they will be with them completely one day. Why? Because that is what their MP is telling them. Action? None. Talk? Lots of it.

 

 

Absolutely, it works both ways.

[silktricks]

BUT sometimes what happens is these conditions are not met and the BS still stays in the marriage giving the impression they love unconditionally and perhaps they do, but I see it more as accepting the fact they cannot change their spouse and therefore settle for less in order to have them by their side.

 

I agree - and as both you and SOC say, this may very well be true in the situations where the OP continues on for years when they aren"t really satisfied with the situation

[NoIDidn't]

But isn't that the advice that therapists give for almost all relationships? To lower your expectations.

 

I don't think that is settling, per se. It really depends on which standards a person is lowering. Its foolish to think that just because a W took a WH back means that she is settling. She is often telling him, I'll stay but you best not to cheat ever again in your life. How is that settling?

 

It is lowering expectations though, because she really has no choice. The cheating has already been done and that's it.

 

And I definitely agree that depression and a general dissatisfaction with life contributes more to affairs than any MM would ever admit. Some MM do it for the validation they aren't getting at home. What they need to do is address WHY they aren't getting it instead of straying and causing the situation to balloon into an uncontrollable emotional storm.

[Tomcat33]

. Some MM do it for the validation they aren't getting at home.

 

You'll find a good number of people who cheat in fact do so because they don't get validation at home, or they are taken for granted.

Question is: why do people take their partners for granted? If you are willing to put ALL this work into recovering from something as hurtful as an affair why wasn't that work being put into practice before it gets to the point of an affair happening?

[nadiaj2727]

But if a person stays forever with someone who makes them unhappy by cheating over and over and over, or continually doing anything else that hurts their SO without a thought to how they are hurting that person, I would define that as "doormat love."

 

I completely agree. There is a line between standing by someone even when they've hurt you, and both of you working towards making the relationship stronger, and enabling them to keep cheating. I think it takes *two* people to reconcile after cheating... one who is remorseful and one who is forgiving.

[silktricks]

You'll find a good number of people who cheat in fact do so because they don't get validation at home, or they are taken for granted.

Question is: why do people take their partners for granted? If you are willing to put ALL this work into recovering from something as hurtful as an affair why wasn't that work being put into practice before it gets to the point of an affair happening?

In a perfect world no one would ever take their partners for granted. Unfortunately, that world doesn't exist.

 

I can say for myself:

 

I felt I was being taken for granted.

I was angry about some things that happened that I hadn't dealt with.

I felt I was completely and utterly over worked, over stressed and ill, and thought my husband wasn't carrying his share.

I didn't know if I wanted to continue on with the marriage.

 

As a result of those things, though, I didn't choose to have an affair. I chose to separate for a time to see if I felt better about marriage in general and marriage with him specifically.

 

But, did my husband feel that he was special with me during that time? no, he didn't. Was that an excuse for what he did? No, it wasn't. But it did provide a basis for discussing all of our problems, his AND mine in the marriage.

 

I do not believe that there is ever an excuse for having an affair. That said, I also don't believe that the people who engage in them are all terrible people who should be chastised or nagged or vilified or ..... etc.

[silktricks]

I think it takes *two* people to reconcile after cheating... one who is remorseful and one who is forgiving.

 

I think it probably helps even more if both people are remorseful and both people forgiving.

 

The problems that led to an affair are usually two sided. If only the misadventures of the cheater are laid on the table and ironed out, and the misadventures of the BS are not laid on the table and never ironed out, all the problems will not be resolved and the same situation will have a greater likelihood of arising again.

[NoIDidn't]

Question is: why do people take their partners for granted? If you are willing to put ALL this work into recovering from something as hurtful as an affair why wasn't that work being put into practice before it gets to the point of an affair happening?

 

Often times when one partner is feeling that way, both are and neither is communicating it to the other. At least, that's the way it was in my M.

 

Sometimes it takes the emotional jolt of betrayal to get some of us to pay attention to the M instead of trying to slowly check out emotionally because of fear of being open with one another.

 

Sometimes the betrayer needs to see themselves in light of what they've done. Some cheaters don't like what those things they were telling themselves to justify the unjustifiable makes them become.

 

They start to hate that they have become lying, manipulative, and disloyal cheats. But unfortunately, its hard to get anyone to not do what they feel will make them feel good. Its the typical "it seemed like a good idea at the time", until its "time to pay the piper".