How does the MM really feel about the OW?

[NoIDidn't]

How is this thread OTHER poster's screw ups? Didn't quite get the rationale behind that!?!?

 

Tomcat,

 

Generally I have you on ignore because you are argumentative to no end, but I needed to clear something up for you.

 

The OTHER posters I was referring to were OTHER posters who posted similar type threads and have SOME people around here REacting as if ALL newbies are trolls. Not the actual other posters here posting in this thread.

 

Don't turn this board into one of those OTHER ones where the paranoia is high but actual reading comprehension is absent because they let their emotions run wild and no longer even respond in a rational manner.

 

I respect that others don't agree with my assessment about what went down, but it doesn't change what I think. And, its important to know what is being said before simply giving a knee jerk reaction to a post without considering what was really being said.

 

No posters in this thread are being blamed for anything. I was talking about actual OTHERS who have posted controversial threads for sport. I don't get that from Tame. I could be wrong. But that's my problem to worry about.

 

I felt that this thread is very much about discussion, it just seems too many don't want to discuss the uncomfortable without attacking others and then putting them on the defensive and saying "see, they're a troll". Wanna talk about childish? THAT, is childish.

 

I am done on this threadjack. Its not nice to see anyone ganged up on for no good reason other than suspicion, disagreement, and paranoia.

[NoIDidn't]

If there are so many of us here - and you can count them - whose MM have left their Ws just recently for the OW, that's rather more than the 10% you bandy around.

 

Does this fit for the realm of "he said/she said"?

 

Using only the posters that post on this forum is not a large enough sample size and certainly not random. If there were ten OW on this forum who claimed that their MM left a marriage for them, would that create a new stat where 100% of MM leave when we only have ten?

 

The 10% is not something that one particular person is bandying around. It is based on research. Imperfect, but far better than using the limited numbers of clearly biased posters on this particular forum.

[Owl]

Just a point of clarification.

 

I point blank asked about the motivations behind posting here and what the goals of this thread were...for a very specific reason.

 

Starting a thread with a decidedly contentious content on a forum predominated by people you know will take offense to it with the sole intent of "voicing your opinion" is troll-like behavior. When you're not interested in anyone's stories or situations, but only want to state what you think and deliberately provoke those that disagree with that viewpoint on a forum like this...you're not offering support, you're not offering or asking for advice, you're not attempting to do anything but create conflict. That is troll-like behavior.

 

That prompted my blunt questions and response.

 

FWIW, I think that my questions and responses were 'right on the money'. I've seen nothing to change my view on this from the very beginning right up to now.

 

This really has nothing to do with "other posters"...other than the fact that I see a lot of similarity in tactics, methods, and writing styles to those other 'suspect' posters as well.

[Tomcat33]

The OTHER posters I was referring to were OTHER posters who posted similar type threads and have SOME people around here REacting as if ALL newbies are trolls. Not the actual other posters here posting in this thread.

 

terrific thanks for the response!

 

Don't turn this board into one of those OTHER ones where the paranoia is high but actual reading comprehension is absent because they let their emotions run wild and no longer even respond in a rational manner.

 

I respect that others don't agree with my assessment about what went down, but it doesn't change what I think. And, its important to know what is being said before simply giving a knee jerk reaction to a post without considering what was really being said.

 

Isn't that what I did when I asked you:

 

 

How is this thread OTHER poster's screw ups? Didn't quite get the rationale behind that!?!?

 

 

No posters in this thread are being blamed for anything. I was talking about actual OTHERS who have posted controversial threads for sport. I don't get that from Tame. I could be wrong. But that's my problem to worry about.

 

That's your opinion not everyone agrees, so now we are paranoid, childish and suspscious because we don't agree?

 

 

I felt that this thread is very much about discussion, it just seems too many don't want to discuss the uncomfortable without attacking others and then putting them on the defensive .

 

Agreed case in point: the OP.

 

I am done on this threadjack. Its not nice to see anyone ganged up on for no good reason other than suspicion, disagreement, and paranoia.

 

you keep aplologizing for or saying you are not going to t/j anymore but then you come back, put a thought out to specific members and then continue to do so!?!? Are you discussing this or not?

[Tomcat33]

Actually, the first post on this thread was neither contentious nor accusatory. It seemed to me the OP simply wanted to give some food for thought to folks who might be agonizing over "what to do... what to do" with a MM/MW who keeps them dangling on a string. We all know many on LS who are in that position. What I find interesting (and mildly amusing) is that the folks who posted on here with such vitriol and accusations of their own are NOT the people this thread was meant for. Those whose MM have already left their BS for their OW (or who claim to be getting ready to do so) are on here just ripping at the OP. For what? To prove, once again, that their partner really loves them? If you have a good relationship, then just enjoy it and quit trippin'!

 

 

I appreciate that is your interpretation I can't relate to that, the post was abstract enough (CLEARLY) that people interpreted it as they did. With the exception of a select minor few the majority interpreted the OP as something negative and not constructive hence all the questions. But for the sake of discussion SURE let's discuss even if that discussion means opposing points. It seems the OP wasn't up for that so again, if you are not up for discussion and you don't want to know about people's situations or anything that contradicts your post, and you are not offering or seeking advice the question begs to be asked: then what is the point? OWL was right. what's the point?

Edited February 7, 2008 by Tomcat33
typos

[Tomcat33]

..."the majority" being OW's or former OW's, and you guys literally hurled your "situations" at the OP in an attempt to make a joke out of her thread, complete with . I'll say it again - if it's not YOUR situation, why respond? Or should I say, "What's your point?"

 

Because it is an open forum and that's what it is here for, for people to voice their opinions/thoughts.

 

I personally don't have a problem with the OP's point she ended the post with "think about it" So I did and then I commented on it, it just so happens she did not like what I came up with and quite frankly she owns that feeling because I was neither disrpecful nor insulting nor anthing of the sort. I did question how/why she concluded what did and I challenged her on her conclusions. That's what a discussion is. But I guess some people's ideas of a discussion is "yes dear you are right".

And I am sure that is a discussion too, just not the oned that transpired when on my front. And I don't think people should have to excuse that.

[Tomcat33]

Here's a prime example of the ridicule. And who in the hell is she to know who did or didn't call this radio show? It seemed to me the OP was on a mission for OW - the ones who are getting used. Many of which have not a clue it is happening.

 

 

Ohhh she was on a mission alright....for what, is again another abstract interpretation?

 

I think we have all been around here long enough, including the OP (since she mentioned she could have been PMed if people disagreed she knew about the PM function so she is aware of how the site works most newbies don't) to know that if a thread is started that is not seeking advice or offering words of advice and it is posted in a manner that pushes the envelope people will react to it. So I don't fully comprehend why the defensive attitude let's discuss what is being put forth and that's that.

[Tomcat33]

Then people should discuss what may or may not have been going through the minds of these men who disclosed what they did on this radio show. And you're right. Your first response was mere discussion. But not many others. Oh, no. Instead, the discussion, for the most part, went toward discrediting the OP and ridiculing. As for what the mission was - I think it was stated in the first post. I, too, get tired of hearing from all these people who are all wrapped up in some married person who is obviously just using them. Of course that is NOT always the case (as the OP also stated in the first post), but in a case where it IS true, wouldn't you or anyone else who gives a flying rat's a55 want the realization to sink in sooner than later so these poor love-struck, lied-to people can move on and be happy with a REAL person in a REAL relationship?

 

 

I think for the most part that's what happened, people discussed what went on in the show and the credibility of what went on. As the thread progressed (or regressed) I suppose some people wanted to know, what gives what is the point of this if you are going to insult all the opposing posts. At any rate, while I do agree that there are all sorts of people being mislead in As and "some" people would benefit from waking up and smelling the coffee the only surefire way to make someone realise what is what is through personal trial and error. Through the comparisson of shared stories and through reading of the pain others have experienced in similar situations. When you share pain you are more open to change, when you are told you are stupid for what you are doing by a complete stranger it only puts your back up.

 

I can only speak from personal experience of what worked for me in my time of crisis and that was the shared experiences. I'll also tell you what never did work for me ESPECIALLY in my delicate emotional state, and that was the types of posts that were demeaning, accusitory mocking or insulting and most of all GENERALISING...all you will ever get from that is:

 

Debate or argument ie. opposition

 

 

this thread turned into that and I am not sure what the OP expected?

I'm not sure what anyone expects when they come into a forum that is filled with people in delicate situations when you post something that generalises in a negative way. And I get that everyone is entitled to their opinion but dont cry mommy when others who are ALSO entitled to their opinions voice them. Isn't that fair?

[mistie03]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I will give my opinion. I think that some do and some just want their cake and eat it too.

[herenow]

As pointed out in the beginning of this thread, controversy makes good entertainment. It's also clear on this board that people gravitate towards threads like this for the same reason.

 

Since I have been posting on this board (no so much lately), the posts with the most views have been ones with heated debate. We all cause this BW, OW, etc. Why, because we like our opinion to be known mostly to those who disagree with us.

 

It's great to be able to have a conversation with someone who agrees with your every word, but after a while, there is not much to say. But, when you disagree, you get pages and pages of comments. That's just the way it seems to be. Fine by me, I love to hear other opinions. Not that I'm going to sit back and keep my mouth shut about how I feel, and that's where the trouble begins.

[White Flower]

Has anyone else noticed a trend recently on the board? There were two other posters here, very recently, who started their posts with that bold "start statement" methodology. And I've not seen that way of starting a thread often before.

 

Things that make you say....hmmmmmmm.

I've noticed;)

[White Flower]

As pointed out in the beginning of this thread, controversy makes good entertainment. It's also clear on this board that people gravitate towards threads like this for the same reason.

 

Since I have been posting on this board (no so much lately), the posts with the most views have been ones with heated debate. We all cause this BW, OW, etc. Why, because we like our opinion to be known mostly to those who disagree with us.

 

It's great to be able to have a conversation with someone who agrees with your every word, but after a while, there is not much to say. But, when you disagree, you get pages and pages of comments. That's just the way it seems to be. Fine by me, I love to hear other opinions. Not that I'm going to sit back and keep my mouth shut about how I feel, and that's where the trouble begins.

It does get troublesome, unfortunately, at times yet it is important to get the entire perspective on any situation. You're one of my faves, Herenow:), even though we have opposing views at times.

 

One of the things you have said repeatedly is that your H said he didn't love you during the A. Of course he does now, but what he said resonates with me. I hope I'm not thread jacking, but can you tell us how he fell back in love with you?

 

And the guys on the radio show--did they get a well-rounded pool of cheating MM? Some are serial cheaters, some are one time cake-eaters, and some actually love the OW. Of those that actually love the OW, some actually leave the W for them. I would hope the radio station thought to get a nice mix and didn't rush to pull the average joe off the street to call in for a sensational media treat. It sounds like the producers of the show have the typical view of the cheating MM and are not looking at all aspects of the cheating pool.

[White Flower]

As weird as this may sound coming from a BS, I believe that there are more MM that do leave their marriages that are not part of the stats. I think that there are some men that don't fess up to the fact that there is an OW when they leave the marriage. But, even if the stats are higher because of what we will never know, the fact remains that most MM who really love the OW and want to be with them, do leave the marriage eventually.

 

A man who has such little respect for his wife, himself and the OW to engage in an affair in the first place is going to do what is best for him all around. If this type of man wants to leave his marriage to be with an OW, nothing is going to stop him, not even his kids. In my opinion any man who cares enough about his kids to stay married to a woman his doesn't love, isn't going to have an affair in the first place. This is just my opinion, so feel free to disagree.

I love that you can see so many perspectives, HN.

 

The statement I bolded is a little confusing, though. Are you saying that a MM who doesn't love his W, but cares about his kids, wouldn't cheat? Or shouldn't cheat?

 

I'm sure it depends on the dynamic of the A, but a parent can still be an awesome parent while involved in an A. My dad cheated, but he was an awesome father.

[White Flower]

I'm not Tame but I can see that this post should give OW an idea of what the MM's intentions are, or aren't as the case may likely be.

 

You don't think it's helpful for OW to know that they're wasting their time or being used?

 

I guess it's something that's best to be experienced before it can be believed. Oh well.

I'm quite sure many are used. I'm also sure that sometimes both partners use each other. And still, there are many times when both partners are fulfilling each other's needs and just need to figure it out from there.

[Lookingforward]

Some are serial cheaters, some are one time cake-eaters, and some actually love the OW.

 

and some are just very confused TOW dippers.....

 

Every situation is unique no matter how much some might like to think every MM and OW fit some kind of formulaic scenario and bottom line sometimes even the MM doesn't know what he's thinking.

[White Flower]

and some are just very confused TOW dippers.....

 

Every situation is unique no matter how much some might like to think every MM and OW fit some kind of formulaic scenario and bottom line sometimes even the MM doesn't know what he's thinking.

True enough. As I stated earlier everyone is different and has different needs.

 

I've never heard the expression TOW dipper; what is it?

[Cobra_X30]

I love that you can see so many perspectives, HN.

 

The statement I bolded is a little confusing, though. Are you saying that a MM who doesn't love his W, but cares about his kids, wouldn't cheat? Or shouldn't cheat?

 

I'm sure it depends on the dynamic of the A, but a parent can still be an awesome parent while involved in an A. My dad cheated, but he was an awesome father.

 

I think I can explain what HN is saying.

 

"You can be a great Husband, and you can be a great Father! But if your not great at both, your not good at either!"

 

My dad told me that and I believe it.

 

If a man really loves his kids enough to stay, then he should love them enough not to cheat. He will know that their mother means the world to his kids... and that to hurt their mother is to hurt them.

 

Make sense?

[Lyssa]

It does get troublesome, unfortunately, at times yet it is important to get the entire perspective on any situation. You're one of my faves, Herenow:), even though we have opposing views at times.

 

That I agree!

 

I have respect for everyone as I consider myself young and have a lot to learn but I am not going to sit back and let people put me down especially if they do not put themselves in a situation. I try to understand everyone's situation by putting myself in their shoes - may not be accurate on my side but at least, I try my best to see others POV.

 

There is a few BS/XOW that I have high respect for and those I have respect for see things from other perspectives. I know I have learned quite a lot from both OW and BS here.

[Lookingforward]

Whiteflower, tow dippers is a term I read on a thread here a while back and it certainly resonated with me at the time. Go here for the article http://www.gloryb.com/emerald/archives/viewnews.cgi?id=1049308263

 

It's basically the MMs that leave their marriages and truly believe the M is behind them and they are ready to move on, then for whatever reason down the line they decide to go back.

[GreenEyedLady]

Now you see Owl, THIS is why I respect your views even when I disagree with them. You LISTEN to what people say, and work from that. You look at each situation on its own merits, based on the information you're given to work with. Your approach is constructive and respectful - even when it's disagreeing or putting something on the line.

 

It's a good way to engage and it takes the discussion forward, not into a downward spiral.

 

I totally agree with this and that's why I opened my big fat yap...

[nadiaj2727]

and some are just very confused TOW dippers.....

 

Every situation is unique no matter how much some might like to think every MM and OW fit some kind of formulaic scenario and bottom line sometimes even the MM doesn't know what he's thinking.

 

Yeah, I think some MM are so used to lying, that's just their MO, and they lie to everyone, including themselves.

 

I was reading somewhere (in another thread I believe) that some people believe that true happiness can't exist if deception/ lying to ANYONE (even the W) is involved. It's like in order to lie to someone about something so important as a marriage or relationship or who you really love and want to be with, in a way you have to deceive yourself sometimes as well, and therefore can't be truely happy.

 

I don't understand the "I want to be with OW but I *can't* get divorced" reasoning... to me it just sounds like a lame excuse. I've never been married but I broke off an engagement (to be with xMM... how retarded was I) because I was miserable living a double life for any amount of time. I wasn't happy being with one person when I really and truely wanted to be with another person. I don't understand MM who have a long-term affair... how can they be truly happy? I don't understand why they can't just be strong enough to get divorced and go after the person they say they want. There is just so much I still don't understand, after having battle scars from an affair with a MM myself.

 

I guess these are questions for another thread and I don't mean to t/j. But I guess they kind of relate to this thread because I wonder how MM can SAY he loves OW and want to be with her, but then continues to stay married. To me, the two don't go together, which is why I've learned the hard way that actions are way more important than words. To me that says what he really MEANS is that he wants to stay married and continue having the affair. It could also mean he is too cowardly to get divorced, or he lets other "excuses" stand in the way of getting divorced... which MEANS, to me, that OW isn't his first priority. Anyway.

 

I hadn't heard of the TOW dipper, thanks for pointing that out Lookingforward, I found the article very interesting.

[GreenEyedLady]

I was reading somewhere (in another thread I believe) that some people believe that true happiness can't exist if deception/ lying to ANYONE (even the W) is involved. It's like in order to lie to someone about something so important as a marriage or relationship or who you really love and want to be with, in a way you have to deceive yourself sometimes as well, and therefore can't be truely happy.

 

I don't understand the "I want to be with OW but I *can't* get divorced" reasoning... to me it just sounds like a lame excuse.

 

You know, I think that once the deception is over and the truth is out, that's when the true happiness begins...That's when you get to know the person and he opens himself to you...

 

And I don't agree with the lying to anybody means you can't be happy...People tell white lies every day to keep from hurting others and are happy...Besides, I KNOW when he's lying now...I figured out his cues...

 

I think that the I can't divorce is often an excuse, but it's usually seen as a very valid one to the MM...Hurting his W, his children, extended family, losing money, property, image are all very real and scary to them...But in the end if they love their OW and they want to be happy, they'll do it...But they can't have any romantic love for their W or they won't leave...

 

Men who leave are ones who weren't happy to begin with...If they were happy, they aren't going anywhere...

[JessieT]

I don't know, I've only known 3 MM personally, one of which was mine, one was my dad and one was a friend. I've come to the conclusion that it's rare that the guy is thinking things through in a rational logical manner. There are the ones that go out looking and consciously say "oh, I want to get laid tonight and so I'm going to go out and find me some" and then there's the rest.

 

I think that often they're confused and as males are not encouraged to explore their feelings, they just react. Sort of like, I'm feeling hurt because my wife doesn't want to have sex with me, I love spending time with the girl from work because she makes me feel great and oh, we fell into bed and it felt good but now I feel guilty because I'm not supposed to do that, so I'm going to buy my wife flowers on the way home tonight, she didn't seem to care that I made that gesture, I'll talk to the girl from work, she'll make me feel better, oh, we fell into bed again...

 

I'm not saying that they're dumb or anything negative, just that they react rather than think. And as for leaving?

 

Even if he's madly in love with the OW, if you make a list of pros and cons, which is the rational logical thing to do, and in making a decision like this I would say that the MM is usually very logical and rational, the pro list for staying in the marriage is very much longer than the con list, which just has love on it. So of course they're not going to leave. And if they get caught, of course they're going to do everything in their power including say that the OW meant nothing so that they're safe. I almost think security means more to men than to women, even though that's directly against the stereotype.

 

Just my opinion...

[GreenEyedLady]

Even if he's madly in love with the OW, if you make a list of pros and cons, which is the rational logical thing to do, and in making a decision like this I would say that the MM is usually very logical and rational, the pro list for staying in the marriage is very much longer than the con list, which just has love on it.

 

So of course they're not going to leave. And if they get caught, of course they're going to do everything in their power including say that the OW meant nothing so that they're safe. I almost think security means more to men than to women, even though that's directly against the stereotype.

 

Just my opinion...

 

Not all MM just have love on the con side...

 

Sometimes the pros come out on the OW side...But the OW has to fill all of the needs of the MM, not just sex or love...You are right that sex and love are not enough for him to leave...He has to see that his life will at least be as good, if not better, with you...

 

And I agree about them getting caught and throwing the OW under the bus...That's usually what happens...

[herenow]

It does get troublesome, unfortunately, at times yet it is important to get the entire perspective on any situation. You're one of my faves, Herenow:), even though we have opposing views at times.

 

One of the things you have said repeatedly is that your H said he didn't love you during the A. Of course he does now, but what he said resonates with me. I hope I'm not thread jacking, but can you tell us how he fell back in love with you?

 

And the guys on the radio show--did they get a well-rounded pool of cheating MM? Some are serial cheaters, some are one time cake-eaters, and some actually love the OW. Of those that actually love the OW, some actually leave the W for them. I would hope the radio station thought to get a nice mix and didn't rush to pull the average joe off the street to call in for a sensational media treat. It sounds like the producers of the show have the typical view of the cheating MM and are not looking at all aspects of the cheating pool.

 

Thank you for your kind words White Flower. I will do my best to answer your question, but first everyone needs to know that this is an answer that pertains to my situation, not the end all answer for all cases.

 

I truly believe that you cannot love your spouse and have sex with another person. My H agrees and in MC it was important for him to admit to himself and to me that he didn't love anyone at the time, not even himself.

 

My H "has" an addiction. Not to alcohol or drugs, to power and control. For years he poured himself into work and built a very successful business, he obsessed over being in control of all aspects of his live and then eventually my life. Being an independent person, this caused friction in our marriage. Along with the other things that come with marriage, kids, bills, etc, I will be the first one to admit that I took my marriage for granted and ignored the problems that now seem so obvious.

 

None of this is an excuse for what my H did, but here goes. OW was a damsel in distress. He was the night and shining armor. This gave him the fix that he was lacking. He had power and control over her and the affair. He set the terms, she did anything he wanted. There was nothing I could have done to prevent his affair. It was all about his needs and what he was missing.

 

My H has since been going to a 12 step program to help him with his addiction. He has accepted that he can't control anyone or anything but himself and his actions. When that burden was lifted, he became a different person. He made a significant live change and I decided to give him another chance. I say that my marriage is better than ever because I really feel like I'm married to a different man. I now realize that the marriage we had was strained from the beginning because there was always this underlying problem that my H was not capable of truly being happy with his life. Now that he is, I am as well, and what we have now is true love for all the right reasons.