Marriage Going downhill...

[shane147]

Hi, I've just found this site and it seems to be full of good opinions and advice. I need it... this will probably be a long post, but anyone who reads and replies would be appreciated.

 

I'll start by giving a little history on our marriage. We are 30 years old and have been married for 12.5 years. We got married at the ripe old age of 17, a month after we graduated high school. Yes we found out we had a surprise on the way. Well, we both went to college and enjoyed a fairly strong marriage for the first several years. As time went on, we both changed. We ultimately had another 2 children.. now 2 and 9 months.

 

As time has went on, we have really grown apart. We are completely unable to communicate. I can not tell her how I feel. Every time I try to talk about this... it turns into a nuclear war in my home. I am afraid that we are not really in love any more. We never seem to look forward to seeing each other. I have asked her to tell me how she feels and again, I just seem to be brushed off. I've told her on occasion that I don't feel that she is in love with me and, expecting somewhat of a sincere response, get yelled at and told to quit whining. This has been going downhill for the past few years. I've suggested marriage counseling as we are both a little hardheaded, if not very hardheaded. Again, she brushes this off and insults my mother who tried counseling only to go through a few divorces.

 

LONG POST, PLEASE KEEP READING

 

Some of our problems now are things like anger and tempers. She has become very bossy. Each time I try to talk to tell her how I feel about something... the usual routine is this... she disagrees, doesn't want to listen. When I try again, she either ignores me or raises her voice in disagreement. I, trying to get her to see my point of view, will raise my voice to a level that is in line with her tone. She then says something akin to "you are screaming at me, i'm not talking".. .basically a block to dealing with any particular issue. This is her way of maintaining absolute control of any topic. When it escalates, it usually gets explosive. Stuff gets thrown, broke, and very harsh words are usually exchanged. (putting it lightly).

 

Another major problem is parenting. Very often, she undermines me when I deal with a kid. For instance... recently, my 12 year old worked on a project for school. He showed me the work, which despite a few hours of work had a ridiculous number of spelling and grammar errors. I point this out to him, he wines about it, I tell him a little more emphatically and he wines some more. Ultimately, I am a little less than nice.. .not flipping out, just telling him that he shouldn't expect a good grade. My wife comes into the picture, after having been upstairs, and asks him.. .what is your dad bi___ing about now. She sends him on his way and screams at me. This turned into a very nasty argument, where I just walked out the door. The next day, she looked at the work... screamed at him.. and made him do it all over. When I explained that the end result was the same.. him doing the project over, and told her how it really bothered me when she does this... another explosion occurred. This happens constantly. I know that this makes it difficult for the kids to acknowledge my authority as any time i try to instill discipline or teach a lesson, she becomes involved and cuts me off at the knees.

 

PLEASE KEEP READING.. I KNOW THIS IS A LONG POST...

 

Finances - We have been in a hole for the last year. I got a new job where I work nightshift (law enforcement), come home and stay with the 2 younger kids to avoid daycare expenses. In a nutshell, here.. .i was with another agency... we had the 2nd child and i went to work in a different field.. commission only sales. This went from good to pretty bad when the real estate market went downhill. I then went back into law enf. Now, we both work a lot of hours, I have worked a lot of o.t to get back on track... A LOT of o.t. Well, this topic comes up a lot and she completely and fully blames ME for the financial problems. This results in a lot of harsh words and feelings.

 

Intimacy - this has become completely impossible. There is no spontaneity or variation and talking about it is forbidden. I can not tell her what i want or like. This, again, never goes anywhere productive. I must be the one to initiate everything, always. We've done the little surprise trips.. but even then.. it turns into a job. She shows no interest in me at all. Any time I try to come onto her.. aside from bed time once every week or two.. i get rejected. She refuses to kiss me anywhere below the face.. will not touch me and gets very angry when I try to talk to her about it.

 

I don't know that I have presented any particular questions here, but I would like some advice and to hear anyones perspective on this. The most disheartening part to me is that she will never allow me to voice my concerns or tell her how I am worried without everything turning into a blame game. She has become very insensitive as I have tried to get more in touch with my emotions. There is just no talking about it and I'm scared to think that I may live the rest of my life this way.

[redfathom]

Try writing her a letter telling her how you feel give it to her with no expectation that she reads it immeditely. Tell her you want to express how you feel about her and the relationship but don't want it to turn into another argument. Ask her when she has the time and energy to please read the letter and once she has given herself time to let it sink in that if she has any questions or comments you would love to hear them.

 

My H and I have very different arguing styles, he needs time to think about the situation then return to it after such time (usually an hour or two) where as I want to hash is out righ then and there. We both had to learn to respect the others space when it comes to arguments.

 

Also all relationships have deal breakers and boundries, do you know what her's are and does she know ours? For instance, one deal breaker for me is being called a profanity. If my H was to do this, that would be the end of our relationship. You should find out what your deal breaks are and hers and try to respect them.

[redfathom]

Also, I was married at the age of 18 (now 25) and my H is also in law enforcement, so I undrstand how both of those things can be difficult (he also works nights and I work days). He is slightly older then me so I have done a lot more growing up then he has and that has been very hard. It took me a while to understand what was happening and he was not to thrilled with the change (not that it's bad, but that change is scary).

[quankanne]

even if she refuses to go to marriage counselling, go for yourself because you can learn a lot of ways to improve your end of the communication process.

 

also look into marriage enrichment – suggest that you can both agree to let things boil to a point where one of you will do something you'll both regret, or you can at least try to get to a point where you can communicate even as you disagree.

 

are there signs of an affair? Of depression? Of dissatisfaction because she realizes she's 30 with "nothing" to show but a marriage and kids? Those things can be worked on/with, but she's got to first admit them, then be williing to work on them to get to the stage of satisfaction that she wants in her life!

[shane147]

I've tried the letter before.... not recently, though. When I did, as I recall, she said "I read it".. and never said a word about it. That was that.. nothing accomplished.

Theres a lot of name calling here. From both of us, it is usually written off as venting but still persists. It is bothersome because our kids see us act like this. I know its a bad example and not good for them.

No, I don't think theres an affair.. not at all.

[redfathom]

You can't really be the husband she wants you to be because you don't know what it is that she wants. You don't have to be specific if you don't want to but what did the letter say?

 

Also, depression could be the culprit. Like Quakeanne said.

 

P.S. quakeanne, I love GIGI!!!

[whichwayisup]

I've tried the letter before.... not recently, though. When I did, as I recall, she said "I read it".. and never said a word about it. That was that.. nothing accomplished.

Write it and then sit down beside her, let her read it and ask her to either talk to you about what you said in the letter, or ask her to write you a letter back.

 

Somehow there has to be a middle ground, for both of you, to get back better communication skills and try to work through this, for your kids sake. I know it isn't easy, especially when one spouse stops trying..

 

I guess you could focus on something different, and that's: Get a babysitter, take your wife out for a nice dinner, be romantic and try to recapture the love...Obviously you two loved eachother at one time...

 

Great idea about going to counselling on your own...Maybe if she sees you going, she'll change her mind.

[sunshinegirl]

Have you tried to have a "meta conversation" with her? It's like taking a time-out in the conversation to talk about how the conversation is going.

 

"My observation is that when I try to engage you in conversation over X or Y, you do Z (tune out, walk away, change the subject, whatever). That's not working here - we have issues we need to deal with and I need to understand why you do that...and then we need to handle this differently..."

 

I'm baffled at your wife's behavior and am trying to figure out her "story" about what's going on. Do you have any theories?

[redfathom]

I don't have kids so someone with kids can address if this is a form of manipulation.

 

Have you tried sitting her down and telling her you need to discuss the issues in you marriage ot just for you and her but more importantly for the KIDS. She may respond to that by saying that you should not get the kids involve, but they are involved and you too really need to work things out one way or another for the kids.

 

My partents divorced when I was very young, about five. They did not talk until I was seven, when I broke my leg and they had to start talking again. After that my dad would come over to my moms for x-mas, Easter, Thanksgiving and we would spend time together, even after she remarried. Of course my step-dad is a great guy and my dad and him have no beefs. My mom is still a pain in the ass to my dad, but he deals with it (or did for us). Now he deals with it for the grandkids.

 

Divorce when you have kids is something aweful, but if my parents could get along after going through a nasty divorce, custody battle and fight over the house, I have faith that most people can get through anything.

[shane147]

Thanks for the advice. I swear that I've tried many of the things that have been suggested. Any time that I try to speak to her in terms of a meta conversation (i've never heard the term, but I've tried to analyze things as we go along), that reallly blows up as she starts calling me the control freak. Then, very quickly, we lose complete control of the conversation. I've also tried the nights out.. that is good for a short time, but in basically no time we are back to the same old song and dance.

 

At this point in time, I truly believe that marriage has just become a job. She shows no interest in me at all.. physically or emotionally. I've tried approaches where I flirt with her, try to let her know that I'm still attracted to her. I get basically nothing in return. I know that everyone will say... don't expect anything in return, or something to that extent.. focus on her, not me. I have tried this.. tried pleasuring her as much as humanly possible.. candles... the last time we tried to take a bath together, she said no, because she has this fear that the floor will fall through. (thats not a joke) I'm 240 lbs and she's 120lbs... She basically has this attitude where I just feel like she wants me to stay away. I've been faithful to her throughout our entire marriage. She keeps saying that at some point in time she may become interested again. Never addressing the issues of right now. At what point should I expect to have some of the same treatment that I give her?

 

Again, she usually just dismisses me as being a whiner or something like that. I personally feel that she has completely lost interest and passion for me. Burnout is another word that comes to mind. I would give anything to be able to feel like both of us have that flame still, but it seems completely burnt out.

[luvstarved]

shane,

 

My H and I are like an older version of you and your W. Been together about the same amt of time, 3 kids (2 his stepkids) and communication from HELL. But I am the one who has tried to reach my H with limited success. But tons of anger and blame all over the place over the years.

 

We are still working on our R and in counseling etc. There have been improvements but still far to go. I don't know the details of your background so am just going to offer some misc. thoughts/questions that might be relevant...and hopefully helpful in some way

 

1) what is your W's background/childhood? Yours, for that matter? I found my H had been very spoiled, overly praised by mom and anyone who ever said anything possibly interpreted as criticism was a malicious a**hole...which led to him expecting complete compliance, lavish attention and not being expected to do anything in return or to be able to take any form of criticism...I bring this up because of the blame and control aspects you mentioned...and wondering where they come from.

 

2) How long have things been like this? What percentage of time currently are things like this? Are there any moments of joy, happiness, love or is it just constant open hostility...? If you do have moments of joy, are they because of, with, or despite her?

 

3) Did someone "start" all this? With my H, he started after we got engaged and before we got married with the anger and blame and telling me what I thought stuff, and showing that he really didn't want to do the "responsibility" aspects of marriage...BUT I have to admit, through resentment or being worn down or whatever...I eventually joined in.

And things went on like that for years until I threatened divorce (though lack of sex was my reason initially)

 

Well those are my initial questions, here are some things you might try if they make any sense for your situation.

 

1) Decide that you will not participate in this anymore and start working on making it a reality. I would not beg her to speak with you about deep feelings at this point...that would require an intimacy that is not there at this time. I would start with telling her that you love her but that you do not like and do not intend to continue to live in this MUTUALLY DISRESPECTFUL environment. Own your part in it, call it what it is and ask her if she is happy with the way you communicate. If she starts with the blame, name-calling, etc, just walk away until she is calm. Refuse to perpetuate it...but respectfully. This can be extremely difficult but is a good start and a prerequisite for intimacy in all its forms. And it is also hard for someone to maintain their self-righteous anger when they are dealing with a calm rational person.

 

2) Read some good books on relationships. I like Terry Real's The New Rules of Marriage. See if you can get her to engage in some form of couples exercises, etc. This might help her to see how bad things are...where they may have just become crabby habits to some extent...she needs to realize that this is not what a marriage is about...Home should be a HAVEN not a battleground...marriage should be the two of you against the world...not each other...etc...

 

3) It sounds like you are extremely busy so not sure how much opportunity you might get but...work on yourself...things you enjoy, without so much pouring all your emotion and identity through her. It can be a fuzzy line, but in the end, individuals are responsible for their own happiness...at the same time, in a marriage you have a right to expect that your spouse will make some effort to fulfill your needs...it should be a good balance and if it is tipped too far either way, it can cause problems. So spend some time on you.

 

4) Find things to laugh about. This is going to sound very strange but not too long ago I was feeling despair about my situation and asked God for help, which in itself was strange because I am not religious and can't remember the last time I did that. And the next day...as dumb as it sounds, it struck me...LAUGH. And I thought, what? Laugh? At what? And it just came back in my mind over and over...just LAUGH. And it actually has helped.

 

5) When you feel a little more calm about things yourself, and have worked on the respect part, try to work with your wife to communicate better...to move toward intimacy (not sex per se, but real connection that will also help in that area)...our counselor is very good and reminds us to "work your own side of it", that you cannot control others - only your reaction to them, and that if you keep that in mind and do your part, even a bad day for the marriage can be a good day for you...

 

Of course if your wife refuses to give you proper respect, and work with you then you will have to decide if you can live with that long term...but even though it has gone on a long time it does not sound like you have "broken through" to her yet...and hopefully you will...

 

Wow, you thought your post was long...

[BettyBoop]

I'm 240 lbs and she's 120lbs...

 

Were you always that weight or has it piled on throughout the years? It sounds to me like your W does not love you nor is attracted to you anymore. Also, it sounds like she might just want a way out but is unsure how to proceed.

 

You are correct this is not healthy for your kids. My parents had the same situation you do - and there was another person invovled. I'd suggest that if you have done everything, then ask her if she wants a divorce and see her response. Then you might know better where you stand, however - be careful if that is not what you want as she might take your offer right up.

[shane147]

luststarved.. thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

 

My background - Probably not the most stable in the world. My father moved a few thousand miles away when i was about 2 years old. Never got to know him, really. My mother had many failed relationships. By the time I was 8 she had met someone, had a child, then gotten married. This marriage was straight out of hell. Lot's of violence, some drugs, overall a rough ride. My mother always made me feel loved, but she chose to stay.. "for the kids". I turned to many school activities.. sports and so forth to escape home. Finally, as you see... I began having sex in high school.. with the same, and still only girl.

 

Her background - Very strong willed, mostly overbearing mother who has lots of love, but only sees things from her perspective. Father was a very loving man.. but a passive alcoholic. Never would hurt a soul, but was never active in her childhood in anyway.

 

My wife thinks I had it quite rosy growing up, because my family did have a little money. She comes from a family with much lower income. We weren't rich, but just looked like we were well to do. I would say that in many ways, I had a much rougher childhood than her. She always felt loved and accepted... I didn't. My stepfather was .... well... mean. I didn't learn a lot of values from him.

 

What percentage of the time are we like this? Hmmm.. hard to say. I'd imagine that out of 7 days a week... we get along 2 or 3. Sometimes more, sometimes we just avoid each other. Most of our loving moments are when we look at our children. We don't have many of those moments where it is just the two of us. I'm starting to learn that children can't be the soul source of joy.. it works for a while, but is really only covering the surface.

 

Did someone start it? I really couldn't say that I can point to either one of us. It's just sort of been a work in progress.

 

What happens quite often is this. We will explode... a few days later, we will kiss and make up. Usually the resolution is this "we'll just be nice to each other", without really addressing the issues. She completely refuses to be involved in what she percieves as "deep conversation". She always says that I lecture... it seems that anything over 2 sentences is a lecture to her. Then when I am shorter, it seems much easier to disregard me.

 

I've mentioned the idea of separation. It's been suggested before... usually just out of a really angry moment. Again, she generally has something to say about my mother when I mention this possibility. I believe that she would probably like to be out of the marriage, but because she is so strong willed and would never want to do what she thinks is "wrong".. would never admit it first. i don't know if that makes sense or not, but I guess that sometimes she can be very self rightous.

 

I really think she'd just as soon go for a separation as be involved in any sort of formal or informal couples programs.. whether it be counseling or coaching or anything else. She has a preconcieved notion about that type of thing. I firmly believe that she doesn't want to do that because of the fact that she would not be in control of the communication and she hates to learn things about herself.

 

I remember one time.... probably 8-9 years ago. We were fairly close to separation.... This was the last time I remember her offering a true and sincere apology for anything she said or did. She said "i have things i need to change and still am learning about myself". Things were good for a while after that. But as we both grew up (literally), she began to change.

 

I've started going back to the gym. I havent always been the weight I am now. Some of the problems she points out with my body as why she can't or won't kiss me is the fact that I am hairy. She has made mention of my weight many, many times. I'm not a blob, but I have put on some weight. I've never been a pencil.... but am working on myself again. Funny thing is.... she gets mad that i choose to go to the gym when she gets home. That is her time to go to the gym and she would rather not have to take the kids with her, even though her gym has free childcare. My gym has childcare for a cheap price... but she just doesn't seem to want to deal with the kids when she gets home. Nevermind the fact that I've dealt with them all day after I worked all night... and then an hour or two after she gets home, i go right back to work. I just don't feel like she's willing to go the extra mile for us... she has said many times that our financial problems are all my fault, therefore I wind up being the one working 70 hours a week with perhaps 2 -3 hours sleep on average.

 

I would give anything.. and i mean anything if somehow or another we could re establish or maybe establish for the first time... that "soul mate" type of bond. The truth of the matter, which she will not even admit, is that we really only got married because of our first child. Things worked out for some time, but as she grew up.. she became more and more like her mother.

[redfathom]

So you want your wife to love you again, but you say the only reason you two got married was because she got pregnant. If I was her I would have an issue with that. Maybe you could ask her to marry you again, but this time because you rally do love her (if that's the case) not because it was the right thing to do at the time. Let her know that you not only want to be a family but that you want to be with her.

 

You do need to allow and accept that your wife is changing and will change the more she grows up, you should embrace it. Are you afraid that her growing up has caused this and as she still continues to grow that she will grow further from you?

[shane147]

I wouldn't say that the child was the only reason we got married. We really believed that we were in love. We just hadn't lived any. Our life experiences were very limited at that time. We were immature, obviously. I will say that in all honesty, we probably wouldn't have gotten married at that point in time. We would have went to college, the army, and went out and learned how to be more like adults. We probably wouldn't have missed out on so many life experiences. I understand that change is inevitable, but unfortunately much of the change seems to pull us farther apart.

[redfathom]

While you were both very young when you got married, which I 100% understand being 18 myself when I got married, I know what kind of havoc that can cause in a marriage, understand that even if you got married at 30 and were not 40 you would have changed, just not so drastic.

 

Why does it pull you apart, what has changed? I mean there is the obvious resentment towards each other, but what specifically. Think about each thing that has changed and what you can do to evolve to this change.

[millergirl]

Wow, this is a very complicated situation. I feel so aweful for you and your kids. Your kids are in danger if you guys are throwing things at one another. Not to mention the yelling and screaming that is going on. This is so damaging to your kids.

 

She has some pinned up resentments for sure and if she doesn't get them out and deal with them this situation will never change and if it doesn't, hate to say this but separation my be your only answer. If she is unwilling to go to counseling with you and you can't get her to listen to you then maybe you need to remove yourself and the kids out of this dysfunctional situation.

 

I feel bad for your 12 year old too. When he brought the project to you and you both saw the errors that were made, it sounds like you both were pretty harsh about it. Maybe it is the stress that is going on in the household but your child is also feeling this stress and maybe he can't concentrate either. Just an observation.

 

I really hope that you can get this resolved so that you and your family can have a normal life. In order for this situation to get better, both sides have to be dedicated to fixing it. Sounds like only one of you are on board.

 

I wish you the best of luck!!!