Tell me when I'm going to stop caring

[Storyrider]

Very thought-provoking, Story. Very.

I wish I knew the answers.

 

I guess most of me thinks that yes, often we must indeed wise up and dismiss the dreams after midlife. Or at least, some of the dreams.

 

Do you really think so Mustang? Is this what mid-life crisis is, when it dawns on us that we have been naive and full of illusions? Is MLC just the last act of flailing and raging against dull reality?

 

"Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

 

It does feel like a kind of death. I'm sorry I'm a downer today. Hope it isn't making things worse.

 

My H has told me from the beginning that romantic longing for someone who will fulfill our deepest desires is a misunderstanding of ourselves and human nature. That feeling of having an unfillable hole inside us is because we try to fill ourselves up with romantic passion when we are really hungry for God (Christ specifically to him, but he would call it God to me).

 

I accepted that sometime after he told it to me; I started believing in God and at the same time, believing that there was no man out there who would turn on every light I have; that this was just phantasm, and that to look for it on this earth is futile and misled. Such a man did not exist because my hunger was really for something else.

 

I married him. I didn't question the lack of sexual attraction because I thought I was asking for something that didn't exist, to have that deepest part of me touched? It wasn't possible. I figured, well, the sexual piece is what is missing for me; every relationship is missing something, and this one has so much good.

 

But now, I don't know...I don't know about this God stuff...I don't know about sacrificing carnal passion for goodness, I don't know about any of it...

 

Sorry, this is really a jack.

[Storyrider]

How do you go from the the type of mindset of "he totally digusts me and all he wants is his penis satisfied" to "I think I love him!"??

 

OK. Clearly, this isn't a mindset. This is a gut visceral reaction that MS was putting into words. There is a huge difference.

 

Might there be an attitude problem? Yes. I can say that, and I don't think Mustang will mind, because she knows I'm talking about myself as much as about her. But what happened in the shower isn't the source of the problem. It is a screaming symptom caused by having sex with him for months against her will, to try and fake it until she makes it out of love and respect for him. She doesn't despise him or think he's selfish for wanting sex.

[Kasan]

Do you really think so Mustang? Is this what mid-life crisis is, when it dawns on us that we have been naive and full of illusions? Is MLC just the last act of flailing and raging against dull reality?

 

Wow! Maybe....

 

A time to take stock of where you are, realizing that you will never be....and finding a way to reconcile what you truly have become.

 

If you're lucky you realize that you have become something better than what you envisioned. You will mourn the loss of your illusions and you finally make peace with yourself.

 

That's how you know that you have come through the other side of a MLC.

[Mustang Sally]

twice_shy -

I don't know that I have it in me to argue with you or try to justify to you my way of thinking. I think you might be misunderstanding where I am coming from on this. It is ok with me that you and I (and probably many others, who have not bothered to post on this thread) aren't going to see this through the same lens. In fact, I think that is the beauty of places like LS - to get many varying perspectives on things.

 

I think there is validity to your opinion. And I will take your point of view into consideration as I process this whole thing.

 

Obviously, you have no personal experience with what I'm describing here, and for that simple fact, I am very happy for you. May you go your entire life without having to experience this kind of situation. Sincerely.

 

Peace.

[Mr. Lucky]

You hubby may be lovely and sweet and kind but he is not for you anymore. We are allowed to change our minds you know!

 

Sally, what really stands out in your posts (and what I admire about you ) is your commitment (in the literal sense of the word, an interaction defined by obligations and vows) to your marriage. You know that this is more than just "changing your mind" and you seem deeply aware of the stakes here for those you love. A lesser person might have walked away; you're trying to work it out. Kudos!

 

Having said that, I wonder if this is just about you? Your H could look like Brad Pitt, smell like Rachael Ray and talk like Barry White and it's still not inconceivable that you could be experiencing burnout. Paraphrasing an old locker room expression, "Look for the hottest woman in the room and somewhere there's a guy that's tired of f***ing her". Life is a journey filled with uncertainty, ennui and doubt and marriage (and marital sex) is just a stop on that road. Most of us have experienced some version of what you're feeling although I have no insight as to why it has struck you so profoundly. Hang in there, this may simply get better with the passage of time...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mustang Sally]

Do you really think so Mustang? Is this what mid-life crisis is, when it dawns on us that we have been naive and full of illusions? Is MLC just the last act of flailing and raging against dull reality?

I think it could very possibly be. I was just never literate enough to put it into words, as you have done.

 

"Do not go gentle into that good night.

Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

 

It does feel like a kind of death. I'm sorry I'm a downer today. Hope it isn't making things worse.

No, it's not making anything worse. I'm doing ok. I know it sounded like I was losing it yesterday, and sometimes I think I am, but really? I'm a pretty solid-headed individual. I'll be ok.

 

I do fight with myself, however over whether to "Rage, rage..." as you have quoted, above, or to let "it" die it's death, and face that (hopefully) gracefully and with acceptance and resolve...

(Just in case you hadn't noticed...)

 

My H has told me from the beginning that romantic longing for someone who will fulfill our deepest desires is a misunderstanding of ourselves and human nature. That feeling of having an unfillable hole inside us is because we try to fill ourselves up with romantic passion when we are really hungry for God (Christ specifically to him, but he would call it God to me).

I do have these very thoughts, myself, on occasion. As you know, I grew up with a very "churched" background. I will also admit that, as this whole marriage thing has come to a head for me in the last 3 or so years, so have I also been going through a "crisis of faith," of sorts. I'm sure the two are probably quite related. I dunno. It's just where I am at the moment. I hope God can be understanding of that...

 

I accepted that sometime after he told it to me; I started believing in God and at the same time, believing that there was no man out there who would turn on every light I have; that this was just phantasm, and that to look for it on this earth is futile and misled. Such a man did not exist because my hunger was really for something else.

Well, I have to be honest and say that I do believe there is some truth to this. I am a spiritual person in that I believe we, as humans, need something beyond our human-ness (insert deity name of choice: Allah, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Buddha, Mohammed, Yahweh, etc....) to be complete. I think those that look to satisfy all human longing with earthly hedonsim, and what-have-you, will never be sated.

 

But hey - that's a whole other thread, entirely, no?!

 

I married him. I didn't question the lack of sexual attraction because I thought I was asking for something that didn't exist, to have that deepest part of me touched? It wasn't possible. I figured, well, the sexual piece is what is missing for me; every relationship is missing something, and this one has so much good.

 

But now, I don't know...I don't know about this God stuff...I don't know about sacrificing carnal passion for goodness, I don't know about any of it...

Well, again. To continue with the religious theme of my response...I do believe that God wants for us to find satisfying relationships with other humans. All the way from social circles of friends/community to finding a partner to have a long-term monogamous relationship with. I think God understands our human need for such human contact.

 

But hey - that's just what I believe. YMMV. And I can respect others' viewpoints on all of that.

Sorry, this is really a jack.

No problem.

I think we all need a good "jack" every now and again, you know?

[Mustang Sally]

It is a screaming symptom caused by having sex with him for months against her will, to try and fake it until she makes it out of love and respect for him. She doesn't despise him or think he's selfish for wanting sex.

My opinion on this is that you are right Story.

I do not despise my husband (at least not consciously).

 

I guess it's possible that deep down, I really do have some dislike for him - this must certainly be true, or why would I feel this way about him? But I must be repressing it something fierce, because I do not normally look at him and feel like vomiting or running away, hands in air, screaming bloody murder, or whatever.

 

Let me restate, for clarity's sake:

I do not particularly enjoy sex with my H much of the time. Not ALL the time. There are times when I want it bad, and (as my lifetime designated f*ck partner) he provides me with sex that feels good and is enjoyable. But I do not, as a whole, feel SATISFIED with my/our sex life. In fact, I feel quite empty from it a large part of the time. I do not find him emesis-inducing ALL the time. But - truthfully, here - sometimes, I do. The shower the other day was one of those times.

 

I know it's unfair. Please, can the record show that I acknowledge that this is not right/fair/desirable/laudable/etc.?

 

But it IS me being bare-boned honest about things.

 

I have admonished others in threads past to "strip it bare." I only ask of others to do things that I also require of myself. That is what I am trying to do with this thread. And, in so doing, I realize I am also opening myself up to contrary viewpoints and, possibly, cheap shots, at the individual poster's discretion. Again. I can live with that. But I would like to state that even though this is just the internet? Cheap shots still sting. So please administer with caution and discretion.

[Mustang Sally]

Why? Because he put so much under handed pressure on me for sex he turned me off it! He turned me off of HIM by just being so reliant on me to make him happy. If I refused him sex he would sulk and that turned the pressure up tenfold!

 

I then assumed I just hated sex - Until I left him! Boy did I realise I dod not hate sex! I was like a nymphomaniac and every guy I have met since we split 3 years ago has called me a nymph!

 

I did want sex, just not with him and the reason was that the pressures of life with him just turned me off him and although at the time I didnt realise this, I just didnt love him anymore!

Lishy -

I'm SO glad you have shared this.

 

Now that you have brought up this point, I can tell you that this definitely was an issue in our marriage from early on to about, oh, about 5 to 7 years ago.

 

Actually, I had sort of forgot about all of those feelings I had...

I think you may really have hit on something illuminating here.

Seriously.

 

I'll have to dwell on this one some more, but I think this may be a big piece of my puzzle?

 

Honey I have told you this before but I will say it again, you are not getting younger, you only have ONE life and it is not a rehearsal so do what makes YOU happy! Your kids will be happier of you are! Trust me on that!

 

You hubby may be lovely and sweet and kind but he is not for you anymore. We are allowed to change our minds you know!

I know you are right.

Thanks for those words.

[Mustang Sally]

Marlena and HisLove -

Undoubtedly, you are both right.

Fear is playing a huge role here.

I wish I could disacknowledge that...as I don't fancy myself one to live out of fear. But to do so would just be lying. It is a factor.

 

Not that the sex isn't great or even good but that you feel disgust at the thought of sex with him. Why is this, do you think? What exactly repulses you? His body? Yes, now I remember, you said something about an odour. Can these things be fixed? Or is it the way he makes love to you? Can something be improved there?

It's multifactorial, I'm sure.

 

I'm disgusted a bit at his physical flaws (again - before everyone skewers me on this, I admit that I too am far from perfect). What can I say? It is true. As I have stated before, he is not well matched to my physical "attraction zone" anymore. I don't know if that is because he has changed or the zone has changed. Probably a bit of both.

 

But it is also because much of the time sex with him is a chore. I do (what I think is) a lot for him (and myself) sexually - believe me. He gets regular blow jobs - I give more often than I receive. I am willing to employ many and varied sexual positions. I am open to most anything in this arena - toys, porn use, etc. (short of a few exceptions, noted elsewhere).

 

I just do not get enough enjoyment out of it enough of the time. I felt, years ago, that this was pretty much all my fault - that I needed to take more responsibility for my own pleasure, and I embarked on a "journey," if you will to be more proficient at taking that responsibility. Thus, I don't place sole responsibility for my pleasure on him. (If I did...I'd be divorced for sure.)

 

However, the enjoyment that I do have, when I have it, hasn't been enough to foster a growing "connectedness" with him in a sexual (and subsequently, in other ways) way, over the years.

 

As far as the way he makes love...well...yeah. I do think that's part of the problem. We've talked about this quite a lot in the past. I've told him what I like, what I don't, what feels good, blah blah blah. I dunno. The way he executes his "moves," if you will, just doesn't seem to do it for me. I don't know how else to tell him anymore. Maybe we are just incompatible in this way? Maybe it's that repressed dislike for him? Maybe its....and on and on.

[Geishawhelk]

MS, d'you know what I'd like to do right now?

I'd like to turn up on your doorstep, declare "Honey, prepare yourself - you 'n' me is going out on a girl's nite on the town and we may not get back til sunup - in March!!"

 

Then I'd haul you off for a really good girlie time, You, me 'n' Storyrider, just having fun, chatting up guys, dancing, eating and enjoying ourselves....

And if that makes you go all "Aw, shoot, that would be great....!"

 

Then that's another thing, isn't it - ??

 

You up for it - ??

[Mustang Sally]

On the other end of the spectrum, what are your husband's good qualities? What do you admire in him? Love him for?

He's a smart person. (Smarter than me.)

He stimulates me intellectually.

He is self-confident. He never questions himself (at least, not that I am aware of).

He is very good at his job, and successful. He helps a lot of people with what he does for a living - I admire that.

He has come from virtually nothing, and made a real respectable life for himself and his family. I respect and admire his drive and commitment to succeeding in this way. He and I are very alike in this way.

He is a good father. I don't always agree with his discipline choices...I think he is inconsistent and sometimes immature in the way he approaches issues with the kids. But he loves them wholely and he would die for them. He would sacrafice anything for them, if necessary. I, of course, love and respect this about him.

And the list does go on, but I think you get the gist.

 

Are these enough to make up for the bad physical side to your marriage? How important is the physical side to you?

This is the crux of the thread.

 

I asked "Tell me when I'm going to stop caring."

What I was referring to was caring about missing that sexual connectedness that I so long for in this relationship.

 

It matters - the physical thing - a hell of a lot to me now. I just have this tremendous desire to feel more than fraternal love and respect (although I do certainly think these things are very important in any healthy relationship) for the man I spend the rest of my days with. I don't know if that is truly too much to ask for, or not. I wonder if I should just be happy that I have what I do with this man. I know that many others do not have such a great guy. I realize that I am so very fortunate that he is willing to put up with me and my issues right now.

 

But, at the end of the day, I guess I want it all. I want to want to give all of myself to the person that I am with and receive satifisfaction and fulfillment back from doing so.

 

Has something or someone triggered this off recently? A friend who has divorced, for instance? Or meeting a man that you are attracted to?

I don't think so.

I've had these feelings for years. But I didn't own up to them until the last several years or so.

 

Are there guys around me that I am attracted to? Certainly.

Do I think that I am looking to start something with any of them? No, I don't believe so. Although I have had propositions and some opportunities in the past.

 

I do wish for what I perceive to be lacking in my marriage. But I am enough of a realist to know that just by finding some other Joe to fill H's shoes, the problems are not necessarily solved.

 

Ask yourself this.

If I didn't need to worry about society's reaction..my family and my friends for instance, would I divorce this man?

Yes.

If he and I could continue to have the friendship that we do now (and I don't see that as being too likely...) and continue to parent our kids together without letting any bad or hurt feelings get in the way.

[Geishawhelk]

Yes.

If he and I could continue to have the friendship that we do now (and I don't see that as being too likely...) and continue to parent our kids together without letting any bad or hurt feelings get in the way.

 

There would be a change. There would have to be, doubtless.

And friendship? Immediately, no, probably not.

But in time, it's possible.

Really it is.

 

If you two have come though this marriage in this way, and you have managed to speak, communicate and stimulate each other mentally, then there should be enough intellectual common sense to help you both separate the emotional factor of any break-up, from the practical element.

 

The key word, of course, is 'should'....

Make practical decisions based on practical factors..

let Emotion have a say, and it's doomed.

 

The other thing to consider of course is that whilst you are in this relationship, as it stands, all your practical needs are being met.

Your emotional needs however, are slowly being strangled and suffocated to a slow lingering death.

Are you willing to let this happen to you?

 

Oh MS... I really would like, more than anything else, to be able to swing this one for you. Take it all off your shoulders. Give you a break from this 'punishment'. Really I would.

[Kasan]

It occurs to me MS that you need a paradigm shift in your way of thinking.

 

I had a really hard childhood, really difficult and one day I woke up and I told myself that I had leave before what I was meant to be was totally obliterated. I was afraid and I risked losing my family, which at the time wasn't that much of a deterrent for me and rightfully it shouldn't have been.

 

But I was so afraid and I admit I made lots of mistakes but I was free. I let some people down, I bucked societal norms, a lot of bridges were burned, but it didn't matter as much to me as I thought that it would.

 

I embraced my inner voice back then, as I do today, because it never lies to me. I might be confused by what it's telling me, but it's always the truth whether I want to hear it or not.

 

I really wonder MS, if you could get rid of all the clutter and expectations swirling around you, what your inner voice would tell you.

 

Would it tell you to stay with your husband because you don't want to let him, your children, and your community down? Would it tell you he is your love and you are being silly?

 

Or would it tell you to go find your heart's desire? If you can truly hear your inner voice then your dilemma will become absurdly simple.

 

My inner voice is my compass in life, it has never let me down or betrayed me, and I suspect the same could be said for yours.

 

Can you really hear what yours is telling you?

[twice_shy]

She doesn't despise him or think he's selfish for wanting sex.

 

"Get out of here! Can't I have a moment alone, without you and your dick's needs coming at me constantly?" <--- that is what she said. Sounds like she think he is selfish to me.

 

Some women would love that kind of attention from their husbands.

 

Sucks to be a married man. Damned if they do, damned if they dont

[marlena]

Yes.

If he and I could continue to have the friendship that we do now (and I don't see that as being too likely...) and continue to parent our kids together without letting any bad or hurt feelings get in the way.

 

Sally, you realize of course that you have answered your own question.

You will never stop feeling this way or when you do years from now, for I do not think this yearning will subside any time soon, you may have an intact marriage but you will not have found the passion you so deperately seek now.

Despite your husbands wonderful qualities, you say that you would divorce him if it were not for the fear you have of other people's reaction. You seem to know what you want but are afraid to go ahead with it. I can only assume that this fear stems from your upbringing and the morals and values that your parents, principally, instilled in you. But that was years ago. Today, you are an adult with your own personal code of ethics. You need to stand by what you believe is right and not what others expect of you. You owe it yourself to be true to yourself.

Sally, most fears are not real or are irrational. They exist only in our minds. Surely, you can overcome them if you just take that one tiny first step in the direction you want to move in.

Sally, it seems that your marriage is in deeper trouble than I thought. If, the only reason that you choose to remain in it is fear of social castigation, then, it's really not much of a marriage at all.

Maybe the question you should be asking is "How to overcome my fear of other people's opinions?"

I just want to add that single life is not all it is cracked out to be. It, too, is rough going. Stop and think if you want to throw away a good man for a life that may or may not give you what you feel is lacking in you. When you are older it is true you will not care so much about sex and will probably be glad you stuck to your marriage. Or you may feel regrets that you did stick to a marriage that was unfullfilling. You have to weigh the two and see what is more important to you.

But,whatever you decide to do, do it because you want to and not because others expect you too.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Marlena

[Geishawhelk]

"Get out of here! Can't I have a moment alone, without you and your dick's needs coming at me constantly?" <--- that is what she said. Sounds like she think he is selfish to me.

 

Some women would love that kind of attention from their husbands.

 

Sucks to be a married man. Damned if they do, damned if they dont

Twice-shy, Mustang ALSO said:

 

I know it's unfair. Please, can the record show that I acknowledge that this is not right/fair/desirable/laudable/etc.?

 

She didn't say it TO him, she just thought it, and if you read the rest of the paragraph she admits she blows hot and cold and cannot think why.

 

Some women would love it.

Some don't.

 

Just like some people here understand exactly where Mustang Sally is coming from.

And some don't.

Sucks being a married woman. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

 

My goodness, look at that!!

It goes both ways, wouldn't you know it....?

[twice_shy]

Obviously, you have no personal experience with what I'm describing here, and for that simple fact, I am very happy for you. May you go your entire life without having to experience this kind of situation. Sincerely.

 

I do have experience with this, maybe not exactly mimicing your situation, but experience nonetheless.

 

Bottom line, if this is how you feel towards your husband and you think that the grass may be greener on the other side, then this marriage is not fair to him. Thats a fact. If that is not a fact, tell me how it is fair that he has a wife that he loves and wants, emotionally and sexually, only for that wife to turn him aside. Not only turn him aside, but just have such a lousy attitude about him.

 

I know you said you are not just going to run away from this marriage, but what good is it doing your husband to stay in it? Especially if you hold this view of him? You'd have women out there that would kill to have a husband have the hots for them enough to jump in the shower with them, to want to make love, have sex, whatever you want to call it, with them all the time. But you see it as him thinking with his "dick".

 

Honestly, why are you staying in this marriage if this is how you feel about him? Is it for the kids. I can tell you from experience that is the wrong reason to stay if that is the case. If that is the case, don't get me wrong, I fully understand the emotions of wanting to try to keep the family together.

 

Bottom line, life is too short to be playing these kinds of games. Your life is too short to be saddled in a marriage to a mine you seem to despise, and his life is too short to be married to someone who holds that view of him.

[twice_shy]

Twice-shy, Mustang ALSO said:

 

 

 

She didn't say it TO him, she just thought it

 

Doesn't matter if she said it to him. This is the attitude she has with regards to him.

 

That would be like thinking, if I were married, "boy my wife is a bitch and I really wish she'd just leave me alone".

 

My obvious contempt for someone by simply thinking like that does not lessen the fact that I do despise that person simply because I did not say it to their face.

[Storyrider]

That would be like thinking, if I were married, "boy my wife is a bitch and I really wish she'd just leave me alone".

 

My obvious contempt for someone by simply thinking like that does not lessen the fact that I do despise that person simply because I did not say it to their face.

 

I completely and totally disagree. I don't disagree with your advice about divorce because you may be right that she should leave him.

 

But it is not at all unnatural or uncommon to think negative or nasty thoughts about someone you love from time to time. Thoughts and feelings are not always daisies and roses even within the most loving relationships. It is all about how you express those thoughts and feelings.

 

If I'm having a super bad day with my kids, I might think to myself about them, "You are a pain in the *ss! When will you give me a moment's peace? All you do is take and take. All I am to you is a human TV and a waitress!"

 

Do I love my kids, of course! Do I say this stuff out loud, of course not. I might say, "I have already given you three cups of milk in the last fifteen minutes; please go get some water from the tap." But I give myself permission to think and feel honestly or I would go mad. It doesn't mean I don't love them. It is not any more adult to censor your thoughts and feelings than it is to blurt them out. The happy medium is to let yourself feel things or you will get all tied up in knots.

[Mustang Sally]

"Get out of here! Can't I have a moment alone, without you and your dick's needs coming at me constantly?" <--- that is what she said. Sounds like she think he is selfish to me.

 

Some women would love that kind of attention from their husbands.

 

Sucks to be a married man. Damned if they do, damned if they dont

Ok.

I want to nip this in the bud right now.

I don't have more than a few minutes on here at the moment, so I can't go back and reread how I typed that in, but - just so you know - I did not SAY that to him, it was what I was THINKING and FEELING. I didn't say anything of the kind. I smiled at him and finished my shower. However. Nor did I grab him by the boner and suck him off or have sex with him, for obvious reasons (refer back to what I was thinking and feeling at the time).

 

If you have read my other threads about my marriage, you will find that I take great pains to NOT SAY HURTFUL THINGS to my husband. I have not told him my unadulterated (pun maybe intended) thoughts about my "repulsion feelings" because I realize that would serve no constructive purpose except to hit him below the belt - literally and figuratively.

 

Ok. Have to go. I'll be back tomorrow.

[Storyrider]

 

 

It matters - the physical thing - a hell of a lot to me now. I just have this tremendous desire to feel more than fraternal love and respect (although I do certainly think these things are very important in any healthy relationship) for the man I spend the rest of my days with. I don't know if that is truly too much to ask for, or not. I wonder if I should just be happy that I have what I do with this man. I know that many others do not have such a great guy. I realize that I am so very fortunate that he is willing to put up with me and my issues right now.

 

But, at the end of the day, I guess I want it all. I want to want to give all of myself to the person that I am with and receive satifisfaction and fulfillment back from doing so.

 

I was talking with my therapist about you today, anonymously of course. I was telling her how similar our situations are. She said, "What do you want?" and I said almost the exact same thing as you said above.

 

She said this is a perfectly reasonable thing to want. The question is, she went on to ask, is it possible to get it? She said that I needed to first ask if it is possible to get it within the marriage, and if not, what next? She said I have a responsibility to myself to actively work towards what I want in life and that I need to figure out and move towards getting the kind of relationship I want, if I really want it. So I'm telling you this because maybe it will help you too.

 

(My therapist has her good and bad points. She doesn't think relationships on LS are real, which bothers me, and she forgets important details that I tell her, so I'm not sure it is working out, but that also is for another thread.)

 

Yes. If he and I could continue to have the friendship that we do now (and I don't see that as being too likely...) and continue to parent our kids together without letting any bad or hurt feelings get in the way.

 

I understand your answer because this is all it is now. You'd just be sleeping in different beds instead of the same bed, and of course your kids would come from a divorced home, which is a huge stumbling block for me. If kids weren't involved would you think twice?

 

Another question: What if you could go out and test the waters and then get back into the marriage if you chose to do so? I'm being fantastical since I know this wouldn't happen IRL but I'm just curious because of the fear factor. Would that be an appealing option to you or would you rather be out for good?

[Mustang Sally]

Obviously, I'm hitting a raw nerve with you.

 

I do have experience with this, maybe not exactly mimicing your situation, but experience nonetheless.

Then I empathize with you. Maybe you could start a thread about your experiences? I'm not being sarcastic or kidding. I'd like to hear about what you have experienced.

 

Bottom line, if this is how you feel towards your husband and you think that the grass may be greener on the other side, then this marriage is not fair to him.

I can see your point.

I would also say that at times during our marriage, he has not been fair to me. Should he have run from the marriage to divorce instead of sticking it out and us working on it (the marriage) and ourselves as we have in the past? For all I know, there have been times when he has felt disgusted with and unattracted to me, as well. In fact, there probably were such times. I know he has certainly admitted to me a stretch of about 3 or 4 years when he didn't give a damn about whether sex was good for me, or if he/it gave me any pleasure. He has admitted that he was solely out for himself during that stretch. But then he decided to change his mindset and approach. He (tells me) he doesn't feel that way now.

 

 

Thats a fact. If that is not a fact, tell me how it is fair that he has a wife that he loves and wants, emotionally and sexually, only for that wife to turn him aside. Not only turn him aside, but just have such a lousy attitude about him.

Does a wife (or a husband, for that matter) never have a right to not desire sex from their spouse? Must I always feel up to it and ready to drop and go at a moment's notice? I actually have felt that I owed it to him to be, at least 80 to 90% of the time, receptive to any and all advances. As I have said, I initiate at least over half of the time. But I'm never going to be a gal who can do it every minute of the day - hey - I think I have a pretty active libido at this point in my life, but I ain't that good.

 

FWIW, it's also a fact that plenty of sh*t has gone on between us. And I will tell you that it was not all my doing. No. We both have done our fair share. I think that is probably the case for any couple that has been together for this length of time and has been through some of the stuff in life that we've been through. And I don't really think it's fair for you to say that I am "turning him aside" unequivocally.

 

I know you said you are not just going to run away from this marriage, but what good is it doing your husband to stay in it?

I see your point.

However, he is quite happy, at the moment. In fact, I'm certain of it. I'm not saying that that means I'm not living a lie, but he is not really hurting at this point. If I can deal with myself, then really - is it so much better to rock the boat and do what I KNOW will hurt him?

(I have to credit this approach to a friend of mine who has used this line of reasoning in their marriage. I used to argue against it, but now, I can sort of see where it comes from.)

 

You'd have women out there that would kill to have a husband have the hots for them enough to jump in the shower with them, to want to make love, have sex, whatever you want to call it, with them all the time. But you see it as him thinking with his "dick".

I'm sorry for those women. I guess that is their cross to bear, as this is mine.

 

I can also tell you that he DOES, on occasion, think with his dick. It's ok, it's an inherently male thing, I believe. I am not always receptive to it, however. I try, but this is a flaw of mine. I own that.

 

Bottom line, life is too short to be playing these kinds of games. Your life is too short to be saddled in a marriage to a mine you seem to despise, and his life is too short to be married to someone who holds that view of him.

Look.

I duly note your opinions on this. Again. I'm not sure what all has gone on in your life to color your take on my situation.

 

I know also that this is a very taboo subject what I'm admitting to. It's just not acceptable for a woman to ever feel this way about her husband. I didn't just fall off the apple cart. I do know that much. I hope, in addition to my gaining some clarity, that this might be, at least in some small way, helpful to others - even men - who might be in sexually lacking relationships. I think what I'm describing is not as rare as we might hope. In fact, I think it's a distinct possibility that this might be behind a not insignificant number of "sexless marriages." I see many men (and women too) flail about, wondering on here what in the world is behind their spouse's lack of desire or fulfillment for/from sex with them. I would offer to those folks that what I am talking about is something to be considered. It isn't pretty, or nice, or what anyone would hope for, but it might just be real.

 

Good luck to you.

[Arch]

I applaud MS's commitment to stay in her marriage, if anything I hope more people would have as much commitment as she has shown towards her family and marriage.

 

Good Luck.

[Mustang Sally]

Sally, you realize of course that you have answered your own question.

Yeah, and I also know that the answer I gave you was not the whole truth. Marlena, I fluctuate on that daily. Sometimes every 5 minutes. It's crazy, I know. Like I said in my first post, I'm having a difficult run this last 1 to 2 weeks.

 

Before that, it was weeks to months before I felt this disillusioned. Before that, it was another stretch of weeks to months.

 

It comes and goes.

If I really felt that divorce was the one and only answer for me, and the best answer, I would have pursued it back when I asked H for a separation last March.

 

That's the thing. I think I know...and then it changes. I have taken this to mean that I wasn't really ready to decide yet. And so I've lingered...in marriage ambivalence. Not a happy place, per se, but it's safe®...in it's own ways, if you can understand what I mean. Especially when you are not sure what the best thing to do is.

You will never stop feeling this way or when you do years from now, for I do not think this yearning will subside any time soon, you may have an intact marriage but you will not have found the passion you so deperately seek now.

But which is more important, do you think? Which has more potential, do you think?

 

Despite your husbands wonderful qualities, you say that you would divorce him if it were not for the fear you have of other people's reaction. You seem to know what you want but are afraid to go ahead with it. I can only assume that this fear stems from your upbringing and the morals and values that your parents, principally, instilled in you. But that was years ago. Today, you are an adult with your own personal code of ethics. You need to stand by what you believe is right and not what others expect of you. You owe it yourself to be true to yourself.

Yes. But forgive me for not explaining fully that this is not the only fear I have.

I have fear of regret.

I have fear of my children's pain.

I have fear of being alone for the duration of my days.

I have fear of losing him as a dear, dear friend.

I have fear that I can do it - logistically more than anything - on my own with four kids (even though he would do his share, I know that he would).

etc. etc. etc.

Sally, most fears are not real or are irrational. They exist only in our minds. Surely, you can overcome them if you just take that one tiny first step in the direction you want to move in.

You are right.

I have to tell you - it really isn't like me to be so indecisive. In my work, I make tough (sometimes life-altering) decisions every day. I size up the pros and cons, make what I think is the best possible decision for the moment, and go with it - wherever it takes me. And I do believe in personal accountability and responsibility for one's actions/decisions. It is one of the (if not the) guiding principles that I live by. I just want to be very careful, deliberate, and as fair as possible to all involved with this one. Really.

Sally, it seems that your marriage is in deeper trouble than I thought. If, the only reason that you choose to remain in it is fear of social castigation, then, it's really not much of a marriage at all.

Maybe the question you should be asking is "How to overcome my fear of other people's opinions?"

It's not the only thing I'm staying for. But again, I admit that it weighs in. To say otherwise would be dishonest. I'm sorry.

 

I just want to add that single life is not all it is cracked out to be. It, too, is rough going.

A very good point.

I am definitely spending quite a bit of time thinking about this. Scrivdog said it very aptly in another thread when he described all these over-the-hill, has-been women that want to throw their good men away because they are convinced that there are any number of new young (or otherwise) hotties ready to line up for them...and it just ain't so. I think he made an excellent point with that. No. I think single life would definitely be difficult. And again, I am not approaching this with having some other guy, waiting in the wings for me. Do I sometimes think about the fact that that might make this easier? Sure I do. But in the end, it just ain't my style. That's all.

 

Stop and think if you want to throw away a good man for a life that may or may not give you what you feel is lacking in you. When you are older it is true you will not care so much about sex and will probably be glad you stuck to your marriage. Or you may feel regrets that you did stick to a marriage that was unfullfilling. You have to weigh the two and see what is more important to you.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Marlena. Well said.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Marlena

Oh, you have helped me plenty. Plenty.

And thank you.

[directx]

I applaud MS's commitment to stay in her marriage, if anything I hope more people would have as much commitment as she has shown towards her family and marriage.

 

Good Luck.

 

I'd also like to add i applaud MS's openness and honesty regarding this whole situation. This is no doubt painful as Hell for her to post this, on top of the fact that she continues to visit this the thread she started day after day.

Quite brave, braver than most people.

 

And if there is anyone giving her a hard time over this, consider this: She hasn't done anything wrong. If more people gave their marriage this much consideration before following irresponsible impulses, there would be less threads of 'I've cheated' and more threads of 'How do I deal with this marriage situation.'

 

To me, MS has an incredibly strong character and there is no doubt she is doing everything in trying to come to a solution with this issue.

 

MS, there is much to comment on this entire thread, but I am wondering if you should consider discussing what you are feeling with your husband.

 

Is it possible he would be understanding? Could you be underestimating him? Do you think he is clueless on your feelings, or could he be in denial himself?

 

I believe you can afford to take SLOW steps, which is what you are doing it seems. (in regards to you family/marriage decisions). And i think much of the advice is good on here.

 

I hope your tearful days end soon.