He is the expert I am the learner

[marlena]

Yes,

 

He is trying to intellectually intimidate you.

 

Don't fall for it.

[Kamille]

Wow, the bolded part sounds awfully similar to things I hear at my house. I wonder if this is partly a male vs. female style of arguing or is it dirty dealing?

 

I can't help but feel that he is using his position of power to force an argument, rather than using logical finesse to convince. His comments are disguised as logic because he uses the terminology of logic. But instead of saying "I don't agree with point A," he steps back from the entire discussion and criticizes your framework. It absolves him of having to work to formulating counter-arguments. It also borders on ad hominem attack but doesn't quite go over the line. He is basically saying, "You don't know how to think and you don't know how to argue."

 

Yes exactly. That is exactly what it feels like.

 

I also wonder if it isn't a male-female type of arguing. He asserts things, controls the discussion and I end up doubting myself. And the 'fight' part of the discussion started because I started indexing what I felt were unfair discussion strategies. I think he basically felt that I was only 'nitpicking' because my arguments were weak.

 

I end up feeling empty, destabilized and angry for days after we have a theoretical discussion, meanwhile, he actually enjoys it. Yesterday he said, chiding: "Well maybe the solution is to stop talking theory" to which I replied, seriously: "yes, I think so, at least for awhile". He looked stunned and disapointed by my answer.

 

Marlena, I know I shouldn't let this affect my self-worth -but unfortunately it does. For the first time ever, I caught myself wondering if I was competent enough to do a PhD last week. Any ideas on how to go about not letting it affect my self-worth?

[sb129]

I don't know how you can stop it affecting your self worth, but I hope it doesn't continue to do so.

 

Of COURSE you are competent to be doing your PhD, the scholarships you have are testament to that.

 

Maybe you should give the intellectual discussions a rest or at least limit them. Because if your man enjoys them but they leave you feeling like this, its going to be really detrimental to you. Does he know how they make you feel? I mean really? Is he the kind of guy who would be sad if he knew how sad they made you?

[blackbird]

I can sympathize, Kamille. My SO used to throw the "That's irrelevant" line at me countless times during discussions, not to mention the topic controlling, lecturing/condescending tone, etc, and it made me hurt and diminished as you feel you are, not to mention gun-shy about ever talking about anything with him.

 

Some questions... you don't have to answer them, just questions we found useful to think about while working through this:

- Is he only this way in talks about academic matters, or is he the same when you're being more personal?

- When you are having a group discussion with other people involved, or when you listen to him talking to others, does he speak to them in similar ways, or do you see him being MORE this way with you?

- What you've listed off as him saying to you -- your arguments don't make sense, they are weak, etc -- are those the actual phrasings he uses? Have you suggested to him alternate phrasings he can use that would not alienate you?

- Do you think he understands and respects your reasons for feeling hurt when he acts this way, or do you think he just writes it off as you being overly emotional and needing to toughen up and not take things so personally?

- Do you feel he has an understanding and appreciation of the differences between talking to reach the 'best' conclusion, and talking to share and communicate and hash out half-formed thoughts with a trusted person?

- Beyond the words he uses, what is his vocal tone and physical expressions like in these situations? I found that it was the vocal tone that got to me the most, that fake-patient "I'm going to talk to you like you are a very stupid five-year-old child I have to explain things to in the most basic manner" voice. I started pointing out to him when he got that tone in his voice, and he acknowledged it and stopped doing it most of the time, which has helped immensely. Does he roll his eyes (a sign of contempt) or make other physical expressions of frustration? Ask him calmly to stop. Also look at your own vocal tone. If he's telling you that you're being vindictive when you make a good point, does it have anything to do with your delivery? Maybe a note of "a-ha! got you there!" creeping in?

 

One thing to consider is that probably you are not the only one feeling hurt and diminished. One thing my fiance has told me was that when he would discount things I said as being irrelevant, or when he seemed to be trying to control the topic, it was due to his feeling like I wasn't listening to HIM, that I was just waiting until he finished talking so that I could make my point. He told me that it would help a lot if when he finished talking, I would respond to or at least acknowledge what he had said before saying my piece (acknowledge as in, at least say "Okay, I see what you mean" or "I can understand that").

 

In my mind, the connection between what I was saying and what he had just said was clear and relevant, but he wasn't making the same connections in his mind. Or sometimes I'll say something that is relevant to the general topic at hand, but not directly stimulated by what he just said. Either way he was feeling invalidated by perceiving me as not listening to him, just as I was feeling invalidated by perceiving him as condescending to me.

[Art_Critic]

Maybe you should give the intellectual discussions a rest or at least limit them.

 

I kinda agree.. even political discussions can pit two spouses at each other..

How about every time he starts a discussion where he feels threatened that you step in and stop the discussion before he goes half cocked in his correcting you stuff..

 

I think it is up to you to how much of this you want to take.. enforce clear boundaries and maybe if you do this enough he will start to grow up and treat your viewpoint with the same importance he treats his own

[Florida]

This sounds like a really male/female way of arguing, but because it is mixing in work and professional standing therefore esteem, it is getting messier than it normally would.

 

And it still would be messy, because like story said, it is an overriding way to argue.

 

It is unfortunate that that is what he does, professionally.

 

I don't know how he could turn it off and leave it at the door. But that dismissive style is way beyone student/teacher. As you said, he talks that way to everyone.

 

A lot of women don't like being talked to like that by their BF's husbands. How to seperate his professional way of life and calm it down into a different interaction with you? That is the question.

[Kamille]

I don't know how you can stop it affecting your self worth, but I hope it doesn't continue to do so.

 

Of COURSE you are competent to be doing your PhD, the scholarships you have are testament to that.

 

Maybe you should give the intellectual discussions a rest or at least limit them. Because if your man enjoys them but they leave you feeling like this, its going to be really detrimental to you. Does he know how they make you feel? I mean really? Is he the kind of guy who would be sad if he knew how sad they made you?

 

You know, I'm not sure he realizes to what extent it affects me. At the same time, he's seen me cry on mornings after, he sees how upset I am over it. The first thing he ever does every morning after one of our dinner discussions (they always occur over dinner), is apologize. I usually accept the apology and apologize for specific things I will have said. He just apologizes generally. Maybe next time I should ask him to be more specific about what he feels sorry for. It is most likely for getting me upset. I doubt he's apologizing because of his discussion style.

 

So yes, he knows how it makes me feel. But maybe I should make it a point to explain it to him on a day when I'm feeling calmer about it.

[Art_Critic]

Maybe next time I should ask him to be more specific about what he feels sorry for.

 

 

Good idea.. you need to also feel validated that he was out of control at the time and it was his error in judgment that lead to him making your feel bad.

 

there is nothing worse than an apology just for the heck of it..

 

An apology must address the issue that lead to the apology

[Storyrider]

It is hard because the discussions hinge around something you share in common, so to give them up might seem artificial. It would help to agree on which relationship is primary, your professional relationship or your love relationship? If you both agree that the latter is more important, then maybe he will see the value in choosing his words differently. It isn't a matter of being dishonest about his views, but would he, for example, talk to his boss that way? I have a feeling he would find a more respectful way to speak his mind.

 

If he goes for the jugular and wins the battle at all costs, he just needs to understand the price he is actually paying. Seems like it would be a no-brainer for these guys, but apparently not.

 

BTW, is he drinking at these dinners?

[Kamille]

Thank you so much blackbird! Those questions are incredibly helpful. I might print this off and bring to him...

 

I can sympathize, Kamille. My SO used to throw the "That's irrelevant" line at me countless times during discussions, not to mention the topic controlling, lecturing/condescending tone, etc, and it made me hurt and diminished as you feel you are, not to mention gun-shy about ever talking about anything with him.

 

Some questions... you don't have to answer them, just questions we found useful to think about while working through this:

- Is he only this way in talks about academic matters, or is he the same when you're being more personal?

Only once was he this way on something more personal. He's usually very open and a great listener for personal stuff.

 

- When you are having a group discussion with other people involved, or when you listen to him talking to others, does he speak to them in similar ways, or do you see him being MORE this way with you?

Hard to gage. He considers his best friend his only 'intellectual buddy' in the city where we live. They usually discuss social theory, but to me the tone seems different, more respectful. I met two of his best friends where he comes from and they both told me to stand my ground and not let him intimidate me, because, as one of them says: that's just what he does.

 

- What you've listed off as him saying to you -- your arguments don't make sense, they are weak, etc -- are those the actual phrasings he uses? Have you suggested to him alternate phrasings he can use that would not alienate you?

yes, those are the actual phrasings. We tried to brainstorm alternate phrasing. I have asked him to stop using the 'now you're just being vindicative'. He's agreed.

 

- Do you think he understands and respects your reasons for feeling hurt when he acts this way, or do you think he just writes it off as you being overly emotional and needing to toughen up and not take things so personally?

I don't think he understands my reasons for feeling hurt. So I have a tendency to assume he thinks I'm being overly emotional or that I am only being this way because my arguments are weak. I generally don't agree that my arguments are that weak. I just don't feel like he wants to hear them.

 

- Do you feel he has an understanding and appreciation of the differences between talking to reach the 'best' conclusion, and talking to share and communicate and hash out half-formed thoughts with a trusted person?

I feel that for him it's all about best conclusion. I am more of the share, communicate and hash out half-formed thoughts kind of person.

 

- Beyond the words he uses, what is his vocal tone and physical expressions like in these situations? I found that it was the vocal tone that got to me the most, that fake-patient "I'm going to talk to you like you are a very stupid five-year-old child I have to explain things to in the most basic manner" voice. I started pointing out to him when he got that tone in his voice, and he acknowledged it and stopped doing it most of the time, which has helped immensely. Does he roll his eyes (a sign of contempt) or make other physical expressions of frustration? Ask him calmly to stop. Also look at your own vocal tone. If he's telling you that you're being vindictive when you make a good point, does it have anything to do with your delivery? Maybe a note of "a-ha! got you there!" creeping in?

I feel like his attitude is the "relaxed stance of mastery". Like a cat playing with a mouse. Sometimes, outside of this discussions, he will get a professor tone with me: "this is such and such author who have worked on xyz". I know the tone is meant to be 'helpful' and non-threatening, but it still makes me feel like he takes me for a first-grader. (But this perception of tone is my own issue).

I find it strange because I've been served the 'now you're just being vindicative' at times when I confidently rebute an argument - yes it might have been an "a-ha" kind of thing. I guess I should ask him what my tone is at those times.

 

One thing to consider is that probably you are not the only one feeling hurt and diminished. One thing my fiance has told me was that when he would discount things I said as being irrelevant, or when he seemed to be trying to control the topic, it was due to his feeling like I wasn't listening to HIM, that I was just waiting until he finished talking so that I could make my point. He told me that it would help a lot if when he finished talking, I would respond to or at least acknowledge what he had said before saying my piece (acknowledge as in, at least say "Okay, I see what you mean" or "I can understand that").

I usually am the one to aknowledge what he just says, say, I see what you mean, ok I agree with this point, ok if .... then .... I have asked him to start doing so more often. I have asked him to stop saying: your argument isn't clear and replace it with a reformulation of what he understood of my argument.

 

In my mind, the connection between what I was saying and what he had just said was clear and relevant, but he wasn't making the same connections in his mind. Or sometimes I'll say something that is relevant to the general topic at hand, but not directly stimulated by what he just said. Either way he was feeling invalidated by perceiving me as not listening to him, just as I was feeling invalidated by perceiving him as condescending to me.

 

You're right. I should ask him how he feels about our conversations. He's a great partner in everything and I can usually enlist him fairly easily on 'make-us-better' projects.

[Kamille]

It is hard because the discussions hinge around something you share in common, so to give them up might seem artificial. It would help to agree on which relationship is primary, your professional relationship or your love relationship? If you both agree that the latter is more important, then maybe he will see the value in choosing his words differently. It isn't a matter of being dishonest about his views, but would he, for example, talk to his boss that way? I have a feeling he would find a more respectful way to speak his mind.

 

If he goes for the jugular and wins the battle at all costs, he just needs to understand the price he is actually paying. Seems like it would be a no-brainer for these guys, but apparently not.

 

BTW, is he drinking at these dinners?

 

Yes, he is usually drinking at this dinners - as am I. Although actually, we've once had this kind of discussion over breakfast and the dynamics were quite the same. If anything, I was better at staying calm over it. So maybe I need to cut down on the wine at dinner.

 

I think once I've slept on the advice I've been getting here, I will approach him with the professional relationship versus love relationship. I'll tell him this is something I wish we could work on.

[Kamille]

I was rereading my last reply and remembered that after the breakfast talk, he acted nervous around me. As if he felt like he had pushed the boundaries.

 

Anyways, he just called. He said he was angry at me for things I said yesterday when we talked about it... Namely how I left things. I don't remember this (and he has a tendency to extrapolate sometimes), but I guess I said: "you don't understand and don't want to understand".

 

He's also extrapolated: "You keep control of the social theory discussions by using this, this and this strategy" as "You are controlling". Which I definitely never said because I know he isn't controlling.

 

I think he wanted me to validate his anger and I told him I agreed that I likely said some things the wrong way and said somethings that were unfair yesterday (I even said that yesterday when I was leaving: listen I am hurt and angry right now and I recognize that I am being unfair. Therefore, I think we should end this discussion and I will leave to calm down and reflect about all this.)

 

During the call tonight I told him that the fact remained that our theoretical discussions hurt me ("me font mal" in french which is more like 'made me feel hurt' and less strong, semantically, then 'hurt me').

 

Seeing as we were both still quite emotional about it, we agreed it would be best if we met face to face to talk this through when he got back.

[Ariadne]

Florida, your question is probably fondamental: why does this bother me? If I think about it it's because if you asked me to list off my qualities, I would say, in order: smart, good sense of humor.

 

It doesn't matter why it bothers you. It just does. Some people are like you, you can't change that.

 

He simply found a button that he can push.

 

Of course, he has to be careful not to overdo it and that you can tolerate it, otherwise you'd dump him.

 

Is his getting back at you for your put downs and complaints.

[Mr. Lucky]

I will approach him with the professional relationship versus love relationship. I'll tell him this is something I wish we could work on.

It's hard to wear both hats. I once accepted a transfer to an area where my company had not previously done business, and the president of the company (who knew my wife socially) suggested that she'd be a great choice to help train the opening staff. And he was right, she was great at the job. However, the aspect that we had not considered was that this made me her boss and her my employee. It was beyond awkward because, even when discussing work at home or while out to dinner, it felt like a boss/employee conversation. It became very hard for me not to try and "manage" her and for her not to resent the whole thing. For the sake of our sanity (and marriage!), she quit (or I fired her, we still argue over that part ) and we went back to H and W.

 

It's very easy for that Professor/Boss/Mentor aspect to pervade your entire relationship. Especially if, within the dynamic of the couple, it's important to one of the two people involved...

 

Mr. Lucky

[marlena]

Kamille,

 

If he's only doing this in academic debates, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I mean, how much of your relationship is based on this kind of talk? Why can't the both of you keep things nice and simple? Enjoy one another? Or is he one of these pedantic,academic types who always has to engage in stimulating conversations?

 

I have a friend whose husband thought he was intellectually superior. He would intimidate her in conversation and actually have the gall to call her stupid and boring. She just laughed it off. In the beginning, she was in awe of him. So was I. Til he got to be so boring. So predictably boring! Now, we know what he is going to say before he even opens his mouth. We both just yawn and look the other way!

 

I think Ariadne is right. He's found your button and he loves to push it. I think what is key here is trying not to lose your cool when this happens. Breathe deeply and just argue your point to the best of your ability. Or deflect the conversation. Or just agree to disagree.

 

Don't attach too much importance to what is happening because it could cause things to balloon out of hand. I assume you want to remain in the relationship and not break because of this. Right?

[lovelorcet]

I am not sure what your academic fields are but I am working in my PhD in the biosciences and I am seeing someone who is doing the same.

 

In my field we are continually having to debate things and frankly it can get really brutal. But that is what we are trained in, this is "normal" for us.

 

And once you learn how to set up and take apart arguments you also start doing this across fields.

 

Just a few days ago my gf came home and was telling me about some experiment they are working on. From that experiment she was then explaining to me that they ended up with some conclusion.

My immediate reaction was; that's bullsh$t, you can't make that conclusion from that experiment. A heated debate followed and she had to come to terms with the fact that I was right.

 

On the other hand I should have packaged my initial reaction in a better way but it was more of a reflex.

 

Maybe you are going to have to "earn" some more intellectual respect, beat him at his own game. If he is a real man then he will be able to take it and give you credit where it is due.

[Storyrider]

Just a few days ago my gf came home and was telling me about some experiment they are working on. From that experiment she was then explaining to me that they ended up with some conclusion.

 

My immediate reaction was; that's bullsh$t, you can't make that conclusion from that experiment. A heated debate followed and she had to come to terms with the fact that I was right.

 

On the other hand I should have packaged my initial reaction in a better way but it was more of a reflex.

 

Maybe you are going to have to "earn" some more intellectual respect, beat him at his own game. If he is a real man then he will be able to take it and give you credit where it is due.

 

I think this is a great description of how this happens, but still, picking your battles might behoove you here.

 

OK, 70s reference, hope it isn't too ancient But...do you think when Jimmy Connors dated Chris Evert-Lloyd, they beat each other bloody every time they played tennis? Maybe they did, ha ha, but they didn't end up together. What would be the point in trying to massacring each other if it wasn't fun?

[Kamille]

I am not sure what your academic fields are but I am working in my PhD in the biosciences and I am seeing someone who is doing the same.

 

 

My field of study is the icing on the cake, if you ask me. I study in the field of sociology of education (linked to linguistic inequalities). And one of the fondamental aspects of this field is the power relations embedded in the way we speak, the ways we teach or acquire knowledge, and even how we decide what constitutes legitimate knowledge and what impact it has on relations of inequality.... For example, knowledge styles explains why more men are selected into hard sciences or economy then women. It also explains how minorities, immigrants, second-language learners or socio-economically disadvantaged groups are disadvantages in schools and academia.

 

But enough socio-speak. We saw each other last night because I had forgotten my phone charger at his place and my phone being my alarm clock, I had to go get it. We didn't talk about the issue one bit (as promised), but we actually ended up on other topics (from how was you day?) and we had a really nice time. I know we will work this out and I have to thank you guys for making me see what I wanted to prioritize: our relationship.

 

I also feel stronger so I now see myself being able to enforce my own boundaries as AC suggested - by using humor or by simply refusing to let the conversation get out of control. I will stop competing (thanks Marlena and Florida) and hope it'll improve the way we talk shop.

 

I might also slip a few articles on the sociology of education in his reading pile.

 

We have still promised each other we would talk it through when he gets back, so I will let you know how it goes.

[Ariadne]

And one of the fondamental aspects of this field is the power relations embedded in the way we speak, the ways we teach or acquire knowledge, and even how we decide what constitutes legitimate knowledge and what impact it has on relations of inequality

 

Then maybe this guy is meant as a lesson for you.

[Kamille]

Then maybe this guy is meant as a lesson for you.

 

Well we might be meant as lessons to each other.

[Ariadne]

Well we might be meant as lessons to each other.

 

Right right

[Gala]

As a Ph.D. in the humanities, I've participated in quite a few intellectual discussions in my time...and seen many instances of individuals who really wanted to control a discourse. I could go way into theory-speak in my consideration of this question, but I'm not gonna. I will, however, say that I've seen a lot of male profs (and older grad students) who really savor the power of the intellectual upper hand, and use that in relationships. It is not clear to me from reading your posts how sincere your guy is about making the relationship work, but it does sound like he derives quite a bit of his self-worth through competing with others intellectually, and dominating at least some of the time.

 

I will also say that the a priori power differential between a grad student and a prof is hard to get past in relationships. And usually, in an intellectual/ academic community, one is aware of the profs who trade on this differential. Apologies if this sounds cynical, but O have I seen it. I wish I could think of something to say that was more helpful and/or constructive, but perhaps this perspective will help you.

[Ronni_W]

...but maybe some of you have managed to change the dynamics of your Rs.

Possibly the dynamic is being held in place because you are continuing to engage in exactly the same way as you have always done, in the very same situation that you know makes you feel uncomfortable, hurt and devalued?

 

It is similar to whomever's definition of "crazy" - doing the same thing and expecting (hoping for?) a different outcome.

 

Change it up. He starts one of your "conversations", you go get two colouring books and some crayons...or talk about the intricacies of making sushi or origami...or tell about that time you were 6 and spent the best possible day at the zoo.

It doesn't matter how silly it feels - perhaps the sillier the better?

 

"Just say no" and stop engaging in ways that are detrimental to your own self-esteem and sense of well-being.

 

This dynamic could not - and will not - exist without your active participation.

 

Alternatively, there is a deeper (subconscious) "benefit" that your psyche is deriving...once you uncover the ifs, whys and hows of that, you may even come to appreciate and enjoy the intellectual tussles, albeit on a less frequent basis.

 

YOU CAN change the dynamic. YOU ARE EMPOWERED to do that.

 

Wishing you a fun, happy and enriching relationship!

Edited February 15, 2008 by Ronni_W
grammar