Affairs destroy everyone involved...from the MM.....1223

[Tomcat33]

I think that has always been the thing that pissed me off the most. Not that Mr. Messy wanted a D. But that instead of just saying to me, I am not happy with you and I would like to find someone to be happy with, I would have been hurt, but I would have received the respect that I and 20 plus years deserved. By lying, sneaking, cheating and helping to hurt another man and his children, he changed how I will forever view him. He cared about no one but him and her. Not the other people involved.

 

 

Honestly, would it have made a difference?

 

I think people who want out do this because they don't have the courage to say "I don't want this anymore so it's easier for them to exit being hated, then they don't have to do all the dirty work.

[Tomcat33]

The thing about instantly divorcing if you've fallen for someone else rather than cheat and lie is that divorce is not seen as a positive move by society in general. I think some cheaters, and no, I don't mean the cakeaters, get stuck between a rock and a hard place. They love a new person but they've been told their whole life that divorce is wrong, that you stick to it forever because that's how it works.

 

So what is their choice? They can lie and cheat which is forbidden to them or they can divorce, which is forbidden to them. In addition to divorce being wrong, they've also learned that having children from a broken home is wrong. In that moment, the lesser evil is cheating and lying because it is only one wrong, not multiple wrongs.

 

And then when they can't deal with the guilt of even one wrong, they go back to the marriage and are miserable but at least they're doing "the right thing".

 

Divorce may be becoming more acceptable but it's not even remotely close to being seen as a good thing.

 

But that's not all cheaters, I do get that.

 

I think people should spend less time condemning people, everyone makes poor choices at one time or another, cheating is no better or worse than any other ones, such as driving a car drunk, not using birth control, or a myriad of other lifechanging decisions. None of these means that they are a bad person, it just means that they are a person, as inherently flawed and weak as all the rest of us.

 

 

Excellent thoughts. I agree there is a lot of stigma coupled with divorcing and people have their own inernal trumoil to deal with when making that decision.

 

I like how poeple are always saying "well get a divorce" and problems solved, yes it solves the problem to avoid pain caused by an A but a D is not something that happens in the blink of an eye like "ohhhh I feel like ice cream today let's get an ice cream" There is a lot of consideration that goes on behind in moreso than the act of cheating itself.

[Tomcat33]

And having an A to exit a rel is a sh!!tty cowardly way to terminate a rel, I get that I agree with that, but we have to face the fact that some people are cowards and not everyone acts in an ideal manner. This is also where ownership comes into play, that just because you married someone it doesn't mean that they will act as YOU would, you could hope that they would and you could hope that you are on the same page about your philosophies, but at the end of the day THEY are them and you are you and just because you have something clear in your head it doesn't mean you OWN your partner's conscience too.

[Impudent Oyster]

Ownership is expressed all the time on this forum...

 

It's the BS's mantra of exactly why the OW should not be with the MM, because he belongs to the BS...

 

If that's not the definition of ownership, I don't know what is...

 

That is patently untrue, the OW should not be with the MM because he's MARRIED, he made a vow of fidelity, a promise to forsake all others. She should not be with him because he is LYING to his spouse and family and cheating on them.

 

Obviously there are a lot of people who either forgot that or for whom marriage vows are meaningless, and those people have absolutely no regard for the instituion of marriage.

 

They should certainly NEVER get married and their MM should never have made promises they didn't intend to keep.

 

It honestly sounds like you see nothing wrong with EMA's. Do you think that if a person "falls out of love" (whatever that means), they are justified in cheating? There is no justification for deceiving your spouse in the worst possible way, that's for cowards and cakeaters.

[Tomcat33]

People deceive people all the time sometimes people are in for a rude awakening after they marry, their partner was one way when they were dating and then they completely change afther the deal is signed and sealed and I don't see any barking going on about that yet it happens ALL the time, probably more than affairs.

[Impudent Oyster]

The bottom line here is, some people are confusing an expectation of fidelity with ownership, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Do I expect my husband to be faithful? Absolutely

 

Do I feel like I "own" my husband? Absolutely NOT.

[Impudent Oyster]

People deceive people all the time sometimes people are in for a rude awakening after they marry, their partner was one way when they were dating and then they completely change afther the deal is signed and sealed and I don't see any barking going on about that yet it happens ALL the time, probably more than affairs.

 

That may happen in a very few, isolated cases, however, even if it does, it's no justification for cheating, only an impetus for some serious marriage counseling and soul-searching.

 

And if you want to hold up the OP of this thread as an example, I don't recall him saying his wife changed, deceived or broke any of HER vows, just that he "doesn't feel any emotion for her."

Edited February 13, 2008 by Impudent Oyster

[Tomcat33]

That may happen in a very few, isolated cases, however, even if it does, it's no justification for cheating, only an impetus for some serious marriage counseling and soul-searching.

 

Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease, it happens ALL the time moreso than affairs. People change after marriage, gees there is a whole section on LS dedicated to threads that deal with that let a lone what goes on out there that is not noted.

[bentnotbroken]

Honestly, would it have made a difference?

 

I think people who want out do this because they don't have the courage to say "I don't want this anymore so it's easier for them to exit being hated, then they don't have to do all the dirty work.

 

 

 

Yes, it would have made a difference. I would have been hurt either way, but knowing that he wanted to leave and give me the oppertunity to come to terms with his decision without the drama an unstable woman and an entire community watching the train wreck would have been preferred. It would have made it easier for our children(and hers) as well as me and her BS. It is o.k. not to want me, that is fine. It isn't o.k. to bring another person into my home and disrespect me and my children that way.

 

I wish I could hate him, it would make it easier to understand why he handled the situation that way. But what I really feel is disgust, and no respect. That is a hard thing to feel for the father of your children. Especially when they are his mirror image. So yes, I would have liked to leave the relationship with some form of respect for him, I don't have that for him.

[Impudent Oyster]

Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease, it happens ALL the time moreso than affairs. People change after marriage, gees there is a whole section on LS dedicated to threads that deal with that let a lone what goes on out there that is not noted.

 

Fine, have it your way, many people change after they get married (I just don't know them).

 

So if they do, their partner discusses those changes and has to decide whether they can live with them of not. If not, they end the marriage and go their separate ways, what they don't do is lie and cheat on that person as punishment and feel justified in doing so.

 

And let's not forget, the OP here didn't even say his partner did change.

[Tomcat33]

Fine, have it your way, many people change after they get married (I just don't know them).

 

 

Yeah we just don't know a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. and it's not MY way, it is the way, I would not be saying it if it was just MY way.

 

Yes, it would have made a difference. I would have been hurt either way, but knowing that he wanted to leave and give me the oppertunity to come to terms with his decision without the drama an unstable woman and an entire community watching the train wreck would have been preferred. It would have made it easier for our children(and hers) as well as me and her BS. It is o.k. not to want me, that is fine. It isn't o.k. to bring another person into my home and disrespect me and my children that way.

 

Fair enough, you didn't need the added drama that's true .But if I recall also you are the one that went public with the affair when you posted the flyers in school or something to that effect, so you let the train wreck go public...

 

I wish I could hate him, it would make it easier to understand why he handled the situation that way. But what I really feel is disgust, and no respect. That is a hard thing to feel for the father of your children. Especially when they are his mirror image. So yes, I would have liked to leave the relationship with some form of respect for him, I don't have that for him.

 

well maybe he wanted you to feel disgust because it is easier for thim to handle rejecting you in that way then it is to own up to why he wanted out, some peple are just cowards.

I understand how hard it must be you will always have the reminder of him through your children, but that would happen regardless.

Don't kid yourself that it could have been different if he just came right out and told you I want out. Your resentment would still be there, rejection is rejection and but I understand this is the worst way possible to reject.

[bentnotbroken]

Yeah we just don't know a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. and it's not MY way, it is the way, I would not be saying it if it was just MY way.

 

 

 

Fair enough, you didn't need the added drama that's true .But if I recall also you are the one that went public with the affair when you posted the flyers in school or something to that effect, so you let the train wreck go public...

 

 

 

well maybe he wanted you to feel disgust because it is easier for thim to handle rejecting you in that way then it is to own up to why he wanted out, some peple are just cowards.

I understand how hard it must be you will always have the reminder of him through your children, but that would happen regardless.

Don't kid yourself that it could have been different if he just came right out and told you I want out. Your resentment would still be there, rejection is rejection and but I understand this is the worst way possible to reject.

 

 

 

No I didn't post them, I threatened the ow that I would do that if she didn't leave me alone. It worked for awhile, but as I posted recently, she didn't leave me alone for long. I had to get the RO. And I would have been hurt and angry, but those are normal emotions. But it is also something that I personally could overcome a lot easier than I can knowing the man I thought I knew wasn 't a man at all, but a child pretending to be an adult.

Edited February 13, 2008 by bentnotbroken

[Tomcat33]

No I didn't post them, I threatened the ow that I would do that if she didn't leave me alone. It worked for awhile, but as I posted recently, she didn't leave me alone for long. I had to get the RO.

 

 

Yes I recall that but how did the community find out about the affair again? I thought there was some form of disclosure on your part in hopes that you would blow off her cover with her H?

[Owl]

My thoughts on the marriage=ownership thing.

 

I say...yep...its ownership alright. No question in my mind.

 

I am my wife's husband. I'm not anyone else's. She owns my loyalty to her. She owns my respect of her. She owns my care and love for her. She owns the right to first place in my heart, with no other woman having a chance to it. She owns the right to hear the truth from me on how I feel about her, our marriage, etc...

 

And I own (and am owed) the exact same things from her.

 

Is she my property? No. But does she "belong" to me? Certainly...just as much as I belong to her. Its a MUTUAL ownership. One that we both very much love and appreciate.

 

I know that others here don't feel the same way. I wonder if that difference in understanding may have been what led them to the issues they're dealing with now to some degree?

[bentnotbroken]

Yes I recall that but how did the community find out about the affair again? I thought there was some form of disclosure on your part in hopes that you would blow off her cover with her H?

 

 

 

Different friends and family members saw them, including our oldest. Her BS hired a PI to follow them and he had pictures. They were part of a group of married people who covered for each other while they had affairs. Of course that many lying deceiteful people, someone was bound to talk and they did. When the rumors started I did use them to my advantage. If someone asked me if it were true, I told the truth and said yes. I had no intention of helping them hide their mess.

 

But if they weren't out there whoring around, there wouldn't have been anything for people to talk about or anything for me to confirm. I just played the game with the cards that were dealt. But the dealer could have been a man. And if he couldn't, he should have pretended to be one.

[Tomcat33]

 

I am my wife's husband. I'm not anyone else's. She owns my loyalty to her. She owns my respect of her. She owns my care and love for her. She owns the right to first place in my heart, with no other woman having a chance to it. She owns the right to hear the truth from me on how I feel about her, our marriage, etc...

 

And I own (and am owed) the exact same things from her.

I know that others here don't feel the same way. I wonder if that difference in understanding may have been what led them to the issues they're dealing with now to some degree?

 

I understand what you are saying OWL and I agree with you. You own the idea to those concepts but you don't actually own each others actions, that's the difference.

 

To a certain extent in my case yes, because I knew he was married, I knew he owed his W his loyalty and his word to stay sacred to the promise he made to her but I also knew that in his free will he chose to NOT do any of those things for reasons UNBEKNOWNST to me. He also chose to leave that situation so that he could be free to be with me. I understood from my end of things that he was taking care of HIS part in that agreement in order to proceed with his wants/needs as the related to his marriage. So beyond that point I didn't see it as an ownership I saw it as a person who wanted out of a contractual agreement and was getting out because the agreement no longer worked for him/them. so can you blame someone for trusting a person that shows in words and actions that he was moving on? Am I supposed to have some sense of loyalty to a third party I don't have any sort of ties to when the person who is supposed to have that loyalty to them didn't themselves?

 

A lot of factors were taken into consideration when making this decision but if the idea was that someone wants out and is getting out why not take a chance on something that could turn out to be the love of your life? (I am talking me THEN, not now knowing what I know now)

Edited February 13, 2008 by Tomcat33

[Tomcat33]

Different friends and family members saw them, including our oldest. Her BS hired a PI to follow them and he had pictures. They were part of a group of married people who covered for each other while they had affairs. Of course that many lying deceiteful people, someone was bound to talk and they did. When the rumors started I did use them to my advantage. If someone asked me if it were true, I told the truth and said yes. I had no intention of helping them hide their mess.

 

But if they weren't out there whoring around, there wouldn't have been anything for people to talk about or anything for me to confirm. I just played the game with the cards that were dealt. But the dealer could have been a man. And if he couldn't, he should have pretended to be one.

 

I see, thanks for explaining that I thought it had gone down differently. You had no choice in the drama. If it is any consolation it is them who look bad in the eyes of the community it won't be you, so rest assured as shameful as this was for you, you will always be the innnocent bystander.

[White Flower]

My thoughts on the marriage=ownership thing.

 

I say...yep...its ownership alright. No question in my mind.

 

I am my wife's husband. I'm not anyone else's. She owns my loyalty to her. She owns my respect of her. She owns my care and love for her. She owns the right to first place in my heart, with no other woman having a chance to it. She owns the right to hear the truth from me on how I feel about her, our marriage, etc...

 

And I own (and am owed) the exact same things from her.

 

Is she my property? No. But does she "belong" to me? Certainly...just as much as I belong to her. Its a MUTUAL ownership. One that we both very much love and appreciate.

 

I know that others here don't feel the same way. I wonder if that difference in understanding may have been what led them to the issues they're dealing with now to some degree?

I'm glad you totally understand it all except I wonder about one thing.

 

It wasn't a lack of understanding what marriage means for me. In other words I didn't go wandering because I didn't understand all that. It was my H's lack of understanding it that drove me away. If that's what you meant, then good, we're on the same page.

 

Then when you find someone new you just want to give them all that. You don't want it enforced by a piece of paper only. It's nice if both parties can give each other all that and have that paper but just as good to have all that without the paper.

[Owl]

So beyond that point I didn't see it as an ownership I saw it as a person who wanted out of a contractual agreement and was getting out because the agreement no longer worked for him/them. so can you blame someone for trusting a person that shows in words and actions that he was moving on?

 

Well, if he wanted out of the "contractual agreement"...he should have negotiated an end to the agreement, rather than unilaterally violate the terms of the agreement. If you want to look at it in legal terms like these, then he violated the agreement that held his signature, and was subject to whatever penalties that went along with it.

 

Its unlawful, disreputable, and flat out despicable to violate a contract. Legal or marital. However, given the emotional portion of the marital contract, that's even moreso.

 

I don't see this as any kind of "less wrong" than looking at infidelity in any other light. I don't really see how viewing it from that angle makes it any more "ok" with you.

 

Just because I don't like the terms of a contract after I signed doesn't make it "ok" to unilaterally decide not to uphold the terms of the agreement.

 

Am I supposed to have some sense of loyalty to a third party I don't have any sort of ties to when the person who is supposed to have that loyalty to them didn't themselves?

 

If you had no ties whatsoever to her (not friends, relatives, co-workers, whatever...) then no, you have no sense of loyalty to her. You don't "owe" her anything.

 

But that doesn't make engaging in an affair with her husband any more "right". Or any less "wrong".

 

You know what's right and wrong totally outside of any loyalty to her. Sure, you didn't agree to the marriage. But you knew that it was there...and you knew that she'd be hurt by your actions. Sure, you don't owe her anything. But that doesn't negate the fact that you knowingly participated in something that hurt her beyond description for your own gain.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not HE decided to ignore the damage he was going to do to his wife. It doesn't matter that you don't owe her anything. If you engage in an affair with a married man (knowing he's married), then you are just as "wrong" as he is. Just as "guilty". You're engaging in something that you know will hurt another person tremendously, when there were options that could have taken place to prevent that pain and suffering.

 

I know, there are a million arguments against my POV. You asked my opinion, so I responded. This is very likely another one of those things that we'll "agree to disagree" on.

[Owl]

I'm glad you totally understand it all except I wonder about one thing.

 

It wasn't a lack of understanding what marriage means for me. In other words I didn't go wandering because I didn't understand all that. It was my H's lack of understanding it that drove me away. If that's what you meant, then good, we're on the same page.

 

Then when you find someone new you just want to give them all that. You don't want it enforced by a piece of paper only. It's nice if both parties can give each other all that and have that paper but just as good to have all that without the paper.

 

WF, I think you and I are in agreement on this for the most part.

 

That piece of paper actually means very little to me. I know its around the house somewhere, but its not something I give any thought to.

 

Its the vows that are being held in my heart...and in my wife's...that mean so much to me. The paper is just a legal form to manage how we pay taxes. LOL!

 

And I didn't mean a "lack of understanding". I meant that others have an altogether different view on what marriage means to them, as opposed to what it means to me. Some here don't believe in monogamy, or marital vows, or the concept of marriage.

 

And for them...that's fine.

 

It's when their difference in belief begins to impact on how my life is lived...when it creates pain and suffering for me (or those I love) because their beliefs made it "ok" to impinge on my (or those I love) marriage...that's when there's an issue. When their beliefs cause pain for others with different beliefs...that's when that difference of understanding creates the most strife.

[OWoman]

I meant that others have an altogether different view on what marriage means to them, as opposed to what it means to me. Some here don't believe in monogamy, or marital vows, or the concept of marriage.

 

And for them...that's fine.

 

It's when their difference in belief begins to impact on how my life is lived...when it creates pain and suffering for me (or those I love) because their beliefs made it "ok" to impinge on my (or those I love) marriage...that's when there's an issue. When their beliefs cause pain for others with different beliefs...that's when that difference of understanding creates the most strife.

 

OK Owl, I'm one such.

 

 

But by the same token that you can argue that my "different beliefs" cause you pain, I can argue that your belief in marriage (or, more generally, the beliefs of those who believe in marriage) causes ME pain because they're underwritten by, and in turn help underwrite, views of people as property. Both in the literal historic sense where women were owned by their husbands as goods and chattels, and in the less overt but still pervasive sense of more modern times where people are expected to background themselves as individuals - even at the cost of stifling their own growth and happiness - because of some notion of the primacy of The Collective We, the blessed union, the thing that is somehow greater than the sum of its parts even where it cripples and constrains those who comprise it. I feel that those oppressive views as enacted and embodied by their believers oppress me and constrain me and cause me anguish.

 

Does that give me the right to demand that you (and those who share your beliefs about marriage) should cease your practices because I don't like them?

 

I'd guess not. I'm prepared to tolerate the beliefs and actions of those that I don't agree with - even where I'm caused pain and suffering - because I accept that diversity is an asset in our universe; and similarly I work from the perspective that I'm likewise due tolerance for my beliefs and actions where these are not in conflict with the law or the Constitution.

Disagreeing with me is your right; demanding / expecting me to change my actions (or even my views) to fit in with yours is something else entirely.

 

(And no, I'm not suggesting that this is what you're doing. It is, however, what some people feel they have the right to do.)

 

There - I'm disagreeing with you. Let those who've been talking, sit up and take note... :p

[Owl]

There - I'm disagreeing with you. Let those who've been talking, sit up and take note...

 

Thank you!!! Its about time!!! :D :D

 

 

But by the same token that you can argue that my "different beliefs" cause you pain, I can argue that your belief in marriage (or, more generally, the beliefs of those who believe in marriage) causes ME pain because they're underwritten by, and in turn help underwrite, views of people as property. Both in the literal historic sense where women were owned by their husbands as goods and chattels, and in the less overt but still pervasive sense of more modern times where people are expected to background themselves as individuals - even at the cost of stifling their own growth and happiness - because of some notion of the primacy of The Collective We, the blessed union, the thing that is somehow greater than the sum of its parts even where it cripples and constrains those who comprise it. I feel that those oppressive views as enacted and embodied by their believers oppress me and constrain me and cause me anguish.

 

Does that give me the right to demand that you (and those who share your beliefs about marriage) should cease your practices because I don't like them?

 

I can't do anything about "historical views"...or what happened in the past.

 

I also don't see how these views hurt YOU, personally. Unless you were married to someone who treated you that way, and felt justified because of those views? Otherwise, how do these views hurt you...personally?

 

How does my wife's choice...and my choice...to be married impact you personally? It doesn't, that I can see. There's nothing to "spill over" on to you directly.

 

But, your beliefs can and DO impact others...directly.

 

By choosing to sleep with MM (because you don't believe in marriage), you are a direct source of pain to his wife. A great source, if the affair is discovered. But even if its not, a direct result of the interaction between her H and you is a lessening of interaction between her and him. It creates distance, less emotional interaction...and can ultimately result in the end of the marriage.

 

Can you see the difference here? Her choice to believe in marriage doesn't directly hurt you...but your choice NOT to believe in it directly hurts her.

 

Not calling you out, btw. I know you won't change your beliefs, nor will I change mine. I'm not asking you to change them either...we're engaging in a discussion on the impacts of these beliefs. No anger or animosity is intended by any of my posts.

[Tomcat33]

Well, if he wanted out of the "contractual agreement"...he should have negotiated an end to the agreement, rather than unilaterally violate the terms of the agreement. If you want to look at it in legal terms like these, then he violated the agreement that held his signature, and was subject to whatever penalties that went along with it.

 

Its unlawful, disreputable, and flat out despicable to violate a contract. Legal or marital. However, given the emotional portion of the marital contract, that's even moreso.

 

so what are you saying that every break/up divorce is unanimous? NO it's not and last I checked it does not take TWO people wanting a D for it to happen. More often than not break-ups or D are one sided, the other has no choice but to go along with it. Unless of course they feel some sense of ownership on the other person then they fight it tooth and nail.

[Owl]

so what are you saying that every break/up divorce is unanimous? NO it's not and last I checked it does not take TWO people wanting a D for it to happen. More often than not break-ups or D are one sided, the other has no choice but to go along with it. Unless of course they feel some sense of ownership on the other person then they fight it tooth and nail.

 

Not at all.

 

I'm saying that if he was unhappy in his marriage (dissatisfied with the terms of the contract), he should have filed for a divorce (negotiated the end of the contract) BEFORE he started an affair with someone else (violated the terms of the contract).

[Tomcat33]

Not at all.

 

I'm saying that if he was unhappy in his marriage (dissatisfied with the terms of the contract), he should have filed for a divorce (negotiated the end of the contract) BEFORE he started an affair with someone else (violated the terms of the contract).

 

 

He DID file for D AFTER the fact. The marriage was not going to work regardless, meeting me in the interim is semantics the key is he wanted out, whether he discussed it with his W or not before he had the A that is his cross to bear for how he handled ending THAT rel, the point is it ended it because it had to end it was NOT going to work because at least one party was not satified, I can only speak for what he told me I don't know her side of things.

 

so that is one case amongst affairs

 

then there are those that completely see the light and go back to their marriage with new found strength and energy and willingness to make it it work

 

and then there are those that perpetually seek out the excitement of an A.

 

so when you look at each individual case seperately, really to me, the only that deserves a reall hard licking is the one where the cheater continues in his/her ways that BS puts up with that. The other two I don't see as the same thing AT ALL. If a person chooses to stay with a partner that has cheated on them and can't get over the affair that is THEIR problem not the cheater's, it was YOUR choice to stay (you as in the general you) what will you do about it? An if a person is forced to end a marriage because they are cheated on what in the world would you want to do with someone who does not want to love you in the way you deserve?

 

So really when people are so busy trying to condemn all sinners alike to me there are three very distinct categories people fall under, in all three BOTH parties still have a choice. No you did not have a choice to be cheated on but no one is forcing you to stay with them either.

 

 

Look your partner could take up the sport of snoboarding or surfing and as dangerous as it is they like it, and one day they have a bad fall they could become disabled and you would be stuck having to take care of them for the rest of your life, that sure isn't what you signed up for that sure isn't what you had in mind when you ran off into the sunsent on your wedding day and yet here you are with this new turn of events to deal with, what will you do? You always have choices. Yeah it's unfair yeah it's not what you bargained for but it is what it is.