Affairs destroy everyone involved...from the MM.....1223

[Owl]

Look your partner could take up the sport of snoboarding or surfing and as dangerous as it is they like it, and one day they have a bad fall they could become disabled and you would be stuck having to take care of them for the rest of your life, that sure isn't what you signed up for that sure isn't what you had in mind when you ran off into the sunsent on your wedding day and yet here you are with this new turn of events to deal with, what will you do? You always have choices. Yeah it's unfair yeah it's not what you bargained for but it is what it is.

 

But it IS what I signed up for...how'd that go again? Oh yeah:

 

For richer, or for poorer...

In sickness, or in health...

Forsaking all others...

Until Death do us part.

 

You're totally right. We always have choices.

 

I choose to uphold my vows. Others do not. Regardless of "categories"...it all boils down to that choice.

[OWoman]

Can you see the difference here? Her choice to believe in marriage doesn't directly hurt you...but your choice NOT to believe in it directly hurts her.

 

Owl I'm finding it very difficult to answer this without risking TMI! I'm also trying to argue from a general perspective, rather than personalising it to the specifics of my own situation, which would imply that my morality was situational rather than grounded in principles.

 

I suppose I could answer in a flippant, superficial way that her choice to believe in M does directly hurt me in that it seeks to deprive me of sexual access to her H, or obliges me to access him in a way that has the potential to create turmoil and conflict in his psyche and put him under stress - and, given that I love him, the suffering caused him causes me pain. But that kind of argument would make me guilty of the same kind of offence I decry in marriage - namely that it regards people as resources or objects to be owned, accessed or otherwise used by others, rather than as subjects with their own free will and agency.

 

Or I could argue that the expectations created and supported by M, and those who believe in it, undermine the chances of a successful and happy R for people like myself who view people as living, growing, learning beings whose needs change over time, and whose intersections with others should always be contingent on these changing needs through a process of continual open and honest negotiation, and that the heartache and disappointment I suffer through repeated thwarting of these hopes is a pain as sharp as that perhaps suffered by the W of a MM I may have consorted with intimately should she find out, or suffer withdrawal of affection as a result of my intimacy with her H.

 

Or I could argue that the possible pain potentially suffered by a BW is collateral damage in a larger picture which sees exponential increases in happiness for the CS, potentially for the kids (depending on the circumstances) and extended family, for the circles of friends, for colleagues who benefit from lightened moods in the office, for managers who benefit from increased productivity, from the economy which enjoys the boost that any relationship brings in terms of gifts bought and services consumed...

 

I could go on all day but I'm sure you'd just raise your feathered eyebrows and regurgitate your mousepellets ruminantly. You foreground those considerations most important to you, as I do those most important to me, and so the scales are never going to balance, however many electrons we send around the track.

 

Not calling you out, btw. I know you won't change your beliefs, nor will I change mine. I'm not asking you to change them either...we're engaging in a discussion on the impacts of these beliefs. No anger or animosity is intended by any of my posts.

 

None received, remotely! I think your flame-thrower's out of gas...

[Chrome Barracuda]

But it IS what I signed up for...how'd that go again? Oh yeah:

 

For richer, or for poorer...

In sickness, or in health...

Forsaking all others...

Until Death do us part.

 

You're totally right. We always have choices.

 

I choose to uphold my vows. Others do not. Regardless of "categories"...it all boils down to that choice.

 

Agreed!

 

Sometimes people dont honor theyre vows, sadly this is the world we live in.

 

And you know what really burns me, is that the offending spouse has the clear opportunity to make it right and yet, they dont want to. they ruin things anyway's. Damn shame.

 

Bow you got stacks crying bot he lost his wife and the OW,

 

Good. He made his bed, now he can lie in it!

[Owl]

I could go on all day but I'm sure you'd just raise your feathered eyebrows and regurgitate your mousepellets ruminantly. You foreground those considerations most important to you, as I do those most important to me, and so the scales are never going to balance, however many electrons we send around the track.

 

A long and pretty way to say that we'll have to agree to disagree. Agreed!

 

And for what its worth...I never intentionally brought a flamethrower to any of these forums. At the end of the day, the majority of what I post is intended to help those who come here. Unless its a discussion like this thread, in which I post my viewpoints just the same as anyone else does. No flames intended.

[OWoman]

For richer, or for poorer...

In sickness, or in health...

Forsaking all others...

Until Death do us part.

 

I got married in court. Three minutes.

"Are you both of sound mind, able to understand these proceedings and legally empowered to enter into this contract" "yeah" "yep".

"Do you Jo Bloggs take Joe Soap to be your awful wedded husband?" "I guess."

"Do you Joe Soap take Jo Bloggs to be your awful wedded wife?" "Seems like it".

"Please sign here. Can I have two witnesses to countersign please?"

"NEXT!!!"

It cost all of two bucks for a revenue stamp.

 

Neither of us agreed to forsake all others, and I sure as hell didn't...

[Owl]

I got married in court. Three minutes.

"Are you both of sound mind, able to understand these proceedings and legally empowered to enter into this contract" "yeah" "yep".

"Do you Jo Bloggs take Joe Soap to be your awful wedded husband?" "I guess."

"Do you Joe Soap take Jo Bloggs to be your awful wedded wife?" "Seems like it".

"Please sign here. Can I have two witnesses to countersign please?"

"NEXT!!!"

It cost all of two bucks for a revenue stamp.

 

Neither of us agreed to forsake all others, and I sure as hell didn't...

 

Fair enough...since this refers to "entering this contract"...what was the contract? I assume you had some kind of documentation that went with the JOP ceremony?

[Chrome Barracuda]

I got married in court. Three minutes.

"Are you both of sound mind, able to understand these proceedings and legally empowered to enter into this contract" "yeah" "yep".

"Do you Jo Bloggs take Joe Soap to be your awful wedded husband?" "I guess."

"Do you Joe Soap take Jo Bloggs to be your awful wedded wife?" "Seems like it".

"Please sign here. Can I have two witnesses to countersign please?"

"NEXT!!!"

It cost all of two bucks for a revenue stamp.

 

Neither of us agreed to forsake all others, and I sure as hell didn't...

 

Did he know you wouldnt be faithful when you got married? Would you think he would have married you if you told him? Why didnt you just agree to have an open marriage or go your seperate ways before you married?

 

Why the hell did you get married?

[serial muse]

But by the same token that you can argue that my "different beliefs" cause you pain, I can argue that your belief in marriage (or, more generally, the beliefs of those who believe in marriage) causes ME pain because they're underwritten by, and in turn help underwrite, views of people as property. Both in the literal historic sense where women were owned by their husbands as goods and chattels, and in the less overt but still pervasive sense of more modern times where people are expected to background themselves as individuals - even at the cost of stifling their own growth and happiness - because of some notion of the primacy of The Collective We, the blessed union, the thing that is somehow greater than the sum of its parts even where it cripples and constrains those who comprise it. I feel that those oppressive views as enacted and embodied by their believers oppress me and constrain me and cause me anguish.

 

Does that give me the right to demand that you (and those who share your beliefs about marriage) should cease your practices because I don't like them?

 

I'd guess not. I'm prepared to tolerate the beliefs and actions of those that I don't agree with - even where I'm caused pain and suffering - because I accept that diversity is an asset in our universe; and similarly I work from the perspective that I'm likewise due tolerance for my beliefs and actions where these are not in conflict with the law or the Constitution.

Disagreeing with me is your right; demanding / expecting me to change my actions (or even my views) to fit in with yours is something else entirely.

 

Just to muscle in on this particular debate...

The thing is OWoman, from your posts I'd say your beliefs encompass honesty and plain dealing in relationships, and I think that's true of many of the OW/OM here. I mean, most people prize honesty and openness in relationships.

 

Therefore, the real question, to me, is whether it's worth compromising one's own beliefs. I grant that this is a philosophical question and that real life is much muddier, but ultimately I just don't see the issue as being one of two people in conflict, one who thinks open relationships are okay and the other who doesn't. The conflict isn't about open relationships or not open relationships; it's about whether it's okay to lie so profoundly to your partner while you figure yourself out. Show me one person who'd say it's okay for his/her partner to do that? Even on these boards, the majority of posts by OW/OM who acknowledge that the MM/MW is lying to the spouse simultaneously assert (or at least hope) that they aren't being lied to, at least not to the same degree. It's important, isn't it, that trust? It's at the heart of things.

 

(And, to answer an earlier post from TC, it would indeed have made a great deal of difference to me if my exH had ended the marriage openly rather than having an affair to try it out. Certainly the pain at the time would still have been great. But the ripples from this incident that spread out into my future relationships and my ability to trust in relationships in general extended much farther than the pain of losing him.)

Edited February 13, 2008 by serial muse

[Owl]

I've got to echo CB's questions, because I am very curious about the answers.

 

1. Did you intend to be monogamous when you married?

2. If not, did your husband know that and agree to it?

3. Why did you get married if you don't believe in it?

[OWoman]

Fair enough...since this refers to "entering this contract"...what was the contract? I assume you had some kind of documentation that went with the JOP ceremony?

 

 

Old format marriage certificate - literally just said "It is hereby certified that Husband..............<enter full names> and wife ........<enter full names> are hereby legally married on <date> ......... at <place>

 

and space for the signatures of the husband and wife, the two witnesses, and the magistrate. Oh, and space for his big fat official stamp, and the national emblem on the top and watermarked, so that it wasn't a fake.

 

The second copy was a carbon copy of the first, with old fashioned carbon paper, and the original went into the ID book of the husband, and the copy into the ID book of the wife, since god made man before woman (serious!)

 

I've no idea if it's still done like that - that was a loooooooooooooong time ago and I've avoided weddings ever since!

[Chrome Barracuda]

Old format marriage certificate - literally just said "It is hereby certified that Husband..............<enter full names> and wife ........<enter full names> are hereby legally married on <date> ......... at <place>

 

and space for the signatures of the husband and wife, the two witnesses, and the magistrate. Oh, and space for his big fat official stamp, and the national emblem on the top and watermarked, so that it wasn't a fake.

 

The second copy was a carbon copy of the first, with old fashioned carbon paper, and the original went into the ID book of the husband, and the copy into the ID book of the wife, since god made man before woman (serious!)

 

I've no idea if it's still done like that - that was a loooooooooooooong time ago and I've avoided weddings ever since!

 

 

....Your still not answering the question.

[OWoman]

Did he know you wouldnt be faithful when you got married? Would you think he would have married you if you told him? Why didnt you just agree to have an open marriage or go your seperate ways before you married?

 

Why the hell did you get married?

 

I've got to echo CB's questions, because I am very curious about the answers.

 

1. Did you intend to be monogamous when you married?

2. If not, did your husband know that and agree to it?

3. Why did you get married if you don't believe in it?

 

Quoting both, let's try:

 

No, I never intended to be monogamous. I have no idea whether he intended to - it was never something I asked him to agree to - but he fell totally in love with me and had eyes for no one else, so didn't live up to his intentions if they were for something other than monogamy.

 

Did he know I had no intention of monogamy? Yes of course, I was upfront about that from the start, and all through. Maybe he secretly hoped I'd change my mind but he certainly never said anything to that effect, and I never gave him any reason to expect that I might.

 

Did he agree to marry on those terms? Clearly, or we wouldn't have signed the paper.

 

Why get married? That's a pretty good question. He'd been married before, and was also sworn off it (he claimed). I just never believed in it. We were already living together, so there was no rite of passage involved. Nothing was going to change. But one day we were fooling around and he said, "let's get married" and I laughed and said sure, and we rounded up a couple of friends to witness and walked down to the court. Ten minutes later we were married.

 

So... why DID I get married??? To tell the truth <whisper> I was young, silly, and not remotely sober at the time. The magistrate SHOULD have recognised that this was momentary madness - a bit like Britney Spears's Vegas wedding - and sent us home to sleep it off, but he was a magistrate not my mother and so he just did his job and took two consenting adults at their word. Lots of people get married for the wrong reasons, and I was one of them.

[Tomcat33]

The conflict isn't about open relationships or not open relationships; it's about whether it's okay to lie so profoundly to your partner while you figure yourself out. Show me one person who'd say it's okay for his/her partner to do that? Even on these boards, the majority of posts by OW/OM who acknowledge that the MM/MW is lying to the spouse simultaneously assert (or at least hope) that they aren't being lied to, at least not to the same degree. It's important, isn't it, that trust? It's at the heart of things.

 

(And, to answer an earlier post from TC, it would indeed have made a great deal of difference to me if my exH had ended the marriage openly rather than having an affair to try it out. Certainly the pain at the time would still have been great. But the ripples from this incident that spread out into my future relationships and my ability to trust in relationships in general was far greater than the pain of losing him.)

 

 

I understand that and the lies is what is most hurful of the A beyond the idea that the person you trusted and loved was having those feeling for someone else.

 

I am going to ask this and it is going to be asked so that it is answered honestly: exactly how many people end a relationhip with nothing but the truth being put forth? How many people do you know that sit down and say to one another "look this isn't working I am no longer in love with you and here it the REAL reason why:

 

"I no longer have these feeling for you because __________" Instead what happens is a lot of the real feelings get disguised under false pretensenses for arguments and THAT is the point of contention used to break up with someone "oh we fight too much" or "I feel you no longer love me" "you always put me down and I can't take it anymore" when it is the other way around. It is extremely rare that people sit down and are 100% honest with one another: "the truth is when we were 22, kniwing you was great but now I just don't even know who you are, I want something different for myself and you are not it" "you have gained a lot of weight and I am no longer physically attracted to you" "sexually we are completely incpatible" "my life with your brings me down and I feel like I can't grow" "youre personality bores me to tears and I can't stand to make small talk with you" "making love to you has become harder than having to work a double shift or physical labour, unpaid" . etc...the REAL reasons people want out are never discussed. Those are lies!! Those are FLAT OUT lies that we tell our partners to spare them from pain because we can no longer give them what they want/deserve because our feelings have changed, so what TRUTH are we talking about here?

 

When a person wants out of a rel. they will lie to make it less hurful on the person being dumped, an A is just an extension of that.

 

In regards to the second part of the pain left behind and inability to trust others and the baggage you carry onto another relationship, it takes time and hard work EVERY realtionship marks us one way or another and we carry baggage with us into a next relationship if we DON'T work on it. I know I understand the pain is very deep SM, I do I really do. I was cheated on 10 yrs ago, I was cheated on by the man I was supposed to marry, have I never been able to trust again? No!! Have I had my issued you bet!! I worked hard to overcome my fears to come to terms with life and I CHOSE not to be a victim to my past. You can make that choice for yourself too.

 

My goodness people are raped and malested as children and they manage to overcome that and find a way to trust, why in the world wouldn't you?

Some people were left behind by their parents and they had messed up upgringings there are all sorts of things that happen to people that scar us for life, and we manage to cope one way or another that's like, you either swim or sink.

[OWoman]

Fair enough...since this refers to "entering this contract"...what was the contract? I assume you had some kind of documentation that went with the JOP ceremony?

 

Sorry missed that bit I think?

 

Basically that we'd be regarded by the state as a married couple for tax purposes (married women were taxed in a higher bracket back then), that I'd require my husband's signature on any contract I signed (we were married in community of property, which was the default back then) and that any assets severally owned became joint property to be equally divided in the event of a breakdown of the marriage. That we'd be jointly liable for any debts accrued by either party during the marriage. That any children born of the union, or to the wife while the union was in force, would be regarded as the legitimate offspring of the marriage and subject to the custody and guardianship of both legal parents. And that neither of us could enter into a legal (as opposed to religious or customary) marriage with another party prior to the legal dissolution of our marriage (polygamy was illegal in those days).

 

It's pretty much an economic contract, with the state.

[Owl]

Owoman, I'd agree that your marriage likely wasn't meant to last.

 

How badly do you think your H was hurt by your lack of monogamy? Do you think that this hurt him at all, or do you believe that he really did expect it and accept it wholeheartedly from the beginning?

 

What was the ultimate cause of the divorce?

 

I'd also agree that your "contract" with him didn't have the "monogamy clause" in it. But I'd also argue that the vast majority of marriages do. I'd also like to point out that even if its not spelled out in the vows (like your wedding, when done in front of a JOP), those vows are still considered "implied agreements" for pretty much everyone who marries...UNLESS they state up front at the beginning like you did that this is not the case.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

[OWoman]

Owoman, I'd agree that your marriage likely wasn't meant to last.

 

Owl I think we'd both agree that my marriage wasn't meant to HAPPEN!

 

How badly do you think your H was hurt by your lack of monogamy? Do you think that this hurt him at all, or do you believe that he really did expect it and accept it wholeheartedly from the beginning?

 

I'm sure he accepted it intellectually and politically. Emotionally, that's harder to say. He'd have been hypocritical if he'd shown hurt, as he'd hardly been monogamous with his first W (bonking his wife each night, then once she was asleep crossing the hall to the tenant's room and bonking her, and slipping back into his W's bed just before dawn. Every night. During their entire M, until she got tired of it.) which was probably why he was so open to my views on sexual exclusivity in Rs...

 

What was the ultimate cause of the divorce?

 

I got tired of it and left. It seemed like an inauthentic way of life to me. I needed to be me and I couldn't, in that situation.

[jj2007]

 

When a person wants out of a rel. they will lie to make it less hurful on the person being dumped, an A is just an extension of that.

 

 

Sorry but I will have to respectfully disagree with this. IME, when two people are breaking up/divorcing etc. That is when they don't have to lie and can be honest about why they feel they no longer want to be together. Some people may tell lies about why they don't want to be in the relationship anymore but that is TOTALLY different that having someone on the side and hiding and sneaking and living a double life.

 

Just because you may not see it that way, doesn't mean it isn't true.

[twice_shy]

I am going to leave my wife. I love her enough to realize she deserves someone who is in love with her. We are talking about details and how things will work. I just wish I had done it sooner and was able to be with the woman I am deeply in love with. I have just never dealt with this type of loss and pain. It feels like it will never let up.

 

So if you and the OW hook up, what you gonna do when the 7 year itch sets in with her?

[Tomcat33]

Sorry but I will have to respectfully disagree with this. IME, when two people are breaking up/divorcing etc. That is when they don't have to lie and can be honest about why they feel they no longer want to be together. Some people may tell lies about why they don't want to be in the relationship anymore but that is TOTALLY different that having someone on the side and hiding and sneaking and living a double life.

 

 

 

That's fine you can disagree. Yes in therory yes, and I agree with that but in practice ask around and see how many people are actually 100% truthful when they have to break up with another person.

 

I said As are an EXTENSION of those lies, I didn't say it was the exact same thing. Here is the requote:

 

When a person wants out of a rel. they will lie to make it less hurful on the person being dumped, an A is just an extension of that.

 

 

Just because you may not see it that way, doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

Just because I may not see what, what way, it isn't true?!?!? We are comparing concepts there IS on absolute right of way for the simple fact that everyone sees things differently.

[jj2007]

Just going to requote what I said:

 

IME, when two people are breaking up/divorcing etc. That is when they don't have to lie and can be honest about why they feel they no longer want to be together. Some people may tell lies about why they don't want to be in the relationship anymore but that is TOTALLY different that having someone on the side and hiding and sneaking and living a double life.

 

Just because you may not see it that way, doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

That's why I wrote IME. I have asked others that I know and they agree.

I meant to say that that is your opinion and just because you see it that way doesn't mean everyone does.

 

I said As are an EXTENSION of those lies, I didn't say it was the exact same thing.

 

IMO, I don't think it is even an extension. People tell a lie about why they are breaking up. People have affairs. Not the same thing. Not even an extension. JMO

[JessieT]

Hold on, people in marriages lie and sneak behind each other's back all the time. The wife who goes out and buys some shoes and then tell the husband they cost less than they actually do...the husband who says they got the parts to the computer online used when in reality they were brand new....the husband who takes the kids for ice cream and then says don't tell mom because she'll get mad...the mom who goes to the scrapbooking club and talks about how annoying her husband is with all the other ladies. Each of those is lying and deceitful and while some would cause more hurt than others, each of them hurts the marriage.

 

And, if these small lies build up over time and they do get caught, not all of them but a fair few, and I think I read it on a thread here, maybe this thread, I forgot, people start hearing I want something from you rather than I love you. If this happens, there is no longer honesty in the relationship at all.

 

I guess my point is that a marriage does not necessarily mean an honest relationship.

[Tomcat33]

Just going to requote what I said:

 

 

 

That's why I wrote IME. I have asked others that I know and they agree.

I meant to say that that is your opinion and just because you see it that way doesn't mean everyone does.

 

 

 

In my experience, I have never seen what a victim of war is like and neither have any of the people around me whom I have asked and agree. Does that mean people who go to war don't get messed up from it just because IME I have never witnessed the reprocussions of this?

 

Unless you are a psychiatrist or therapist your experience, as mine, is very small in the grand scheme of things. I welcome you to go walk on over to the marriage forum or the break-ups forum and see how many peaple are claiming "I don't get it, everything was going fine and he/she suddenly wants out" OR "how do I tell my SO I no longer find them attractive" OR "how can I tell my partner I no longer love them" there are more baffled people about why a relationship ends than any other topic and it centers around lies that cushion the blow.

 

Have you always been 100% honest with every person you didn't want to date and who was interested in you and you weren't, or who you had to break up with? I doubt it. My point was and still is, people lie all the time about why they want out of a rel. whether it SHOULD be like that or not is a totally different story.

 

IMO, I don't think it is even an extension. People tell a lie about why they are breaking up. People have affairs. Not the same thing. Not even an extension. JMO

 

Think whatever you want, no one said you couldn't.

[White Flower]

I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

 

I understand what you seem to be trying to say, but its not accurate, IMO.

 

I think you're only taking into consideration that I post my feelings based on my experience only though I am not. I am taking in all that I've seen with friends, society, and through readings.

 

But we can agree to disagree.

 

If I could ask you in a one on one conversation in person if your H told you he no longer loved you what you would do. Would you expect him to stay? Would you expect him to be loyal and faithful even though he no longer felt anything special for you besides friendship?

 

If your (excuse the bluntness) parts no longer functioned but his still did and he DID still love you, would you allow him to have physical relations on the side with someone else? My guess is without really knowing you that if you feel so strongly about the marriage contract that you would say yes to the first and no to the second. Forgive me if I'm wrong on that. To me, true love and commitment means I let you be you even if it hurts me. Just don't take that for granted.

[JessieT]

Don't know how to quote so...SameOldCrap...

 

Yes, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that those fibs and sweet innocent lies can pile up over the years and turn into something that does destroy the marriage in exactly the same way as cheating. How many threads have you seen where the wife or the husband say, I wish he just wouldn't lie to me, I could forgive him not getting me a birthday present but it's the fact that he lied to me that I can't get over. There's no cheating in that marriage, but there are some major problems and it's got a lot to do with fibbing...

[jj2007]

 

Unless you are a psychiatrist or therapist your experience, as mine, is very small in the grand scheme of things. I welcome you to go walk on over to the marriage forum or the break-ups forum and see how many peaple are claiming "I don't get it, everything was going fine and he/she suddenly wants out" OR "how do I tell my SO I no longer find them attractive" OR "how can I tell my partner I no longer love them" there are more baffled people about why a relationship ends than any other topic and it centers around lies that cushion the blow.

 

This still has nothing to do with an affair.

 

Have you always been 100% honest with every person you didn't want to date and who was interested in you and you weren't, or who you had to break up with?

 

Uh, yeah. I was taught honesty is the best policy. Plus, if you want out of a relationship there is no need to lie about why. What is the point? It's not like it's going to matter at that point anyway. The relationship is over.

 

 

Think whatever you want, no one said you couldn't.

 

I will. It just sounds to me like you are trying to downplay affairs to just lying to get out of a relationship and IMO that is a total load of crap. But that's JMO.