Impudent Oyster Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 You have eyes and fingers and you know how to search threads, look for them. I wouldn't waste my time looking for something that doesn't exist. Also, I need to call "my" husband. I hope you don't consider that reference an indication of ownership? Link to post Share on other sites
Zolie Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Of course you would be hurt and angry, who wouldn't? I am not buying that anyone would understand that their spouse fell in love with someone else and would just say "Oh I understand honey, people change, you don't love me anymore, that's okay, I hope you're very happy in your new relationship". Not a chance. IO, forgive me, but you are being narrow minded. Just because you don't feel that way doesn't mean someone else doesn't feel that way. Really, think about it. I'm not trying to be ugly to you - I'm trying to explain how *I* feel. Why on earth would I need to lie about something like that? I guess if you knew more about my history and what made me who I am today, then you would understand why I have formed the opinions I have formed. Also, I just happen to be one of those people who sees both sides of almost every situation. Sometimes it's a curse and sometimes it's a blessing. Link to post Share on other sites
Impudent Oyster Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 IO, forgive me, but you are being narrow minded. Just because you don't feel that way doesn't mean someone else doesn't feel that way. Really, think about it. I'm not trying to be ugly to you - I'm trying to explain how *I* feel. Why on earth would I need to lie about something like that? I guess if you knew more about my history and what made me who I am today, then you would understand why I have formed the opinions I have formed. Also, I just happen to be one of those people who sees both sides of almost every situation. Sometimes it's a curse and sometimes it's a blessing. I thought you didn't "deign" me worthy of a response? I don't care what anyone's personal experiences are, it is NEVER right to lie and cheat. I realize that people may not love their spouse, it happens, but if it does, they should divorce them. It's never okay to cheat on them just because they "fell out of love" with them and I will argue with anyone who says it is. Also, it's my opinion that anyone who says they wouldn't care if their spouse lied to them is not being honest. That is MY opinion, and I'm entitled to it. Link to post Share on other sites
Zolie Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I second that comment. I have seen a LOT of comments here of people who claim some sort of ownership on another human being, it just isn't so. Zolie - I'm with you, people don't own people they own themselves. Thanks, Tomcat. I started to quote MS, too, but I didn't want to fan the flames. But, I have noticed the general condemnation of anyone who is less than 100% loyal to their spouse and it bothers me, which was really the only point I was trying to make. I wasn't trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. Link to post Share on other sites
Zolie Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I don't care what anyone's personal experiences are, it is NEVER right to lie and cheat. I believe that my statement regarding my personal experiences affecting my opinion was in reference to this comment from you: "I am not buying that anyone would understand that their spouse fell in love with someone else and would just say "Oh I understand honey, people change, you don't love me anymore, that's okay, I hope you're very happy in your new relationship"." My statement had nothing to do with lying and cheating. You are attacking me and no where have I said I think lying and cheating is ok, lol! Really, IO, get over yourself. I don't have a beef with you. Why are you so adamant to tell me my opinion cannot possibly be valid? Why are you so angry with me? I have done nothing here except express an opinion in which I neither insulted anyone nor degraded anyone else's opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
Impudent Oyster Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Thanks, Tomcat. I started to quote MS, too, but I didn't want to fan the flames. But, I have noticed the general condemnation of anyone who is less than 100% loyal to their spouse and it bothers me, which was really the only point I was trying to make. I wasn't trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. Less than 100% loyal to their spouse? We're talking about a man (the OP) who admitted to lying time and time again to his wife and sleeping with another woman! DO you really thing he shouldn't be condemned? Is what he did acceptable to you? It actually bothers you that I condemn his cheating? Am I the only one wondering what color the sky is in your world? Link to post Share on other sites
Impudent Oyster Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 You are attacking me and no where have I said I think lying and cheating is ok, lol! No I'm not. You must be hypersensitive. You said it bothered you that some of us condemn the OP. We aren't condemning him for falling out of love, but for lying and cheating. How can you not see that? Link to post Share on other sites
Zolie Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 LOL, you really do like to toss in insults instead of voicing your opinion with intelligence. Really, I don't wish to argue with you further. It is boring to the rest of the board, I'm sure. Link to post Share on other sites
Impudent Oyster Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 LOL, you really do like to toss in insults instead of voicing your opinion with intelligence. Really, I don't wish to argue with you further. It is boring to the rest of the board, I'm sure. Where was my insult? I also didn't say your opinion wasn't valid, just that I disagreed with it. Thanks for playing, it seems whenever someone can't answer a direct question they divert and run. Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 But, I have noticed the general condemnation of anyone who is less than 100% loyal to their spouse and it bothers me, which was really the only point I was trying to make. I am not sure that you made your point clearly, because none of what you said hinged on loyalty. It seemed to be that you were stating that no one is owed loyalty because their feelings can change. I can see both sides of the fence too, but I am not with justifying the person that is clearly wrong. It is wrong to cheat. And just because I can understand how someone gets to that point, doesn't mean that I think they are ever justified. I know that people can have different opinions on things. I simply wanted to know the hows and whys of those feelings. I don't know how ownership comes into it when the person is a part of your personal sphere. I don't feel ownership of my H, but I do feel quite territorial about our M. It is OURS. Not just mine and not just his. But OURS. What is it that a person says or does that implies that they feel ownership of their spouse? Just because they say "my" or "we"? Or am I just missing something? And this is just a general statement, not to anyone in particular. But I find it ironic as well that the same people to say that a spouse doesn't own a spouse, and yet will speak in the same terms about "their" MP and they aren't even married to the person and really have no "rights" to anything about that person. Link to post Share on other sites
Impudent Oyster Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 What is it that a person says or does that implies that they feel ownership of their spouse? Just because they say "my" or "we"? Or am I just missing something? Good question, I'd like to get an answer to this too, but I'm not very hopeful. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I wouldn't waste my time looking for something that doesn't exist. Why not? Are you afraid you might actually find information that proves your opinions wrong? At any rate I won't engage in arguing nonsense with you because quite frankly it bores me to tears and I gain absolutely nothing from dabating things with you IO, you are incampable of discussing things that don't sit well with you. On the topic of entitlement I will say that people who feel a sense of entitlement over another human being, have already lost them. Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 On the topic of entitlement I will say that people who feel a sense of entitlement over another human being, have already lost them. Who said anything about entitlement? The question is about ownership, not entitlement. Its pretty obvious that the person doing the cheating feels the most entitlement. IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites
Impudent Oyster Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Why not? Are you afraid you might actually find information that proves your opinions wrong? At any rate I won't engage in arguing nonsense with you because quite frankly it bores me to tears and I gain absolutely nothing from dabating things with you IO, you are incampable of discussing things that don't sit well with you. On the topic of entitlement I will say that people who feel a sense of entitlement over another human being, have already lost them. See, I told you NID, we won't get an answer... TC, if you can't support your position just say so, don't run away and call it nonsense. If you make a statement, back it up. You'd never make it on the debate team. Link to post Share on other sites
Impudent Oyster Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Who said anything about entitlement? The question is about ownership, not entitlement. I. The fact of the matter is, not a single person here has ever expressed any ownership over their spouse. Not that I've ever seen. It's just something people like to throw out there with absolutely no evidence to support it. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Ownership is expressed all the time on this forum... It's the BS's mantra of exactly why the OW should not be with the MM, because he belongs to the BS... If that's not the definition of ownership, I don't know what is... Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Ownership is expressed all the time on this forum... It's the BS's mantra of exactly why the OW should not be with the MM, because he belongs to the BS... If that's not the definition of ownership, I don't know what is... YES! What is it that a person says or does that implies that they feel ownership of their spouse? Just because they say "my" or "we"? Or am I just missing something? Well since I am of the idea that there are a lot of people that feel entitled to others perhaps I can answer this: No of course not, of couse it is not the motion of calling your honey "my or we" that's what you are, you are "of" each other so why would you try to address your partner otherwise? It's more this idea that some people feel this tremendous amount of anger in the fact that their partner no longer loves or has moved on in heart and head and insist on having them honour the commitment they had to them because at one point in their lives together they did feel those things for each other. I am talking about specific cases where people have a hard time letting go of someone that no longer wants to share their life with them. It's ok to feel angry and deceived and cheated but ultimately a rational human being reaches a point where they have to accept that you cannot force another human being to love you. I don't believe in the agony people put themselves through to salvage a relationship that is simply unsalvagable, and I am not even talking about affair recovering couples I mean in general. Some people just can't let go, their egos are so needy they simply cannot accept that their partner's feelings changed overtime and there is more harm than good to remain together. So it is these very people that demand and grasp at something that is just not going to work. The idea to some people that they have to let go of the person BECAUSE if they love them they need to respect their wishes, is really a foreign one to them. They will avoid pain at all costs even if it means causing themselves MORE pain by trying to hold on to someone that does not wish to be held on to. And all this because you made a vow to spend the rest of your life together? This to me = a sense of entitlement it wreaks of "but you promised to love me forever, now you must" Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Oh and terms of comfort like "she/he stole her H/W" are also terms that depict this idea of entitlement. People don't steal people from people because people don't OWN people. Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Ownership is expressed all the time on this forum... It's the BS's mantra of exactly why the OW should not be with the MM, because he belongs to the BS... If that's not the definition of ownership, I don't know what is... So, in your opinion, how the the MM not belong to his W, as in to his M? What often gets left out here is that the BS usually feels that they belong to the M as well. I just don't see the ownership thing. I guess it really just depends on which R you give more respect. The M is the respectable R, IMHO, not the A. The OPs obviously feel the same level of ownership based on the same thing. He doesn't love her, he loves me - is like saying that the OW owns the MM's love and like that makes the W's claim on his affection null and void. So is the pot calling the kettle black? Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Well since I am of the idea that there are a lot of people that feel entitled to others perhaps I can answer this: No of course not, of couse it is not the motion of calling your honey "my or we" that's what you are, you are "of" each other so why would you try to address your partner otherwise? It's more this idea that some people feel this tremendous amount of anger in the fact that their partner no longer loves or has moved on in heart and head and insist on having them honour the commitment they had to them because at one point in their lives together they did feel those things for each other. I am talking about specific cases where people have a hard time letting go of someone that no longer wants to share their life with them. It's ok to feel angry and deceived and cheated but ultimately a rational human being reaches a point where they have to accept that you cannot force another human being to love you. I don't believe in the agony people put themselves through to salvage a relationship that is simply unsalvagable, and I am not even talking about affair recovering couples I mean in general. Some people just can't let go, their egos are so needy they simply cannot accept that their partner's feelings changed overtime and there is more harm than good to remain together. So it is these very people that demand and grasp at something that is just not going to work. The idea to some people that they have to let go of the person BECAUSE if they love them they need to respect their wishes, is really a foreign one to them. They will avoid pain at all costs even if it means causing themselves MORE pain by trying to hold on to someone that does not wish to be held on to. And all this because you made a vow to spend the rest of your life together? This to me = a sense of entitlement it wreaks of "but you promised to love me forever, now you must" None of what you said has anything to do with the conversation at hand. We weren't talking about the ending of a R and someone not letting go. See, this is how rumors get started...... Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 The OPs obviously feel the same level of ownership based on the same thing. He doesn't love her, he loves me - is like saying that the OW owns the MM's love and like that makes the W's claim on his affection null and void. So is the pot calling the kettle black? A person feels entitled to the promises being made by the person that claims to love them. Very different thing. When an OP wants their partner to act on their words they are simply saying, "well if you feel all the things you say you feel your actions must meet your words." It's the same kind of expectation a person would put on their spouse, is it not? If you say you love me, then prove it to me. And I think that's fair no matter what end of the coin you are on. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) None of what you said has anything to do with the conversation at hand. We weren't talking about the ending of a R and someone not letting go. See, this is how rumors get started...... :lmao: ok that was funny! No but it does, entitlement starts when a person feels the need to hold on to another person beyond what the actions say. That was my point. Edited February 13, 2008 by Tomcat33 Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 So, in your opinion, how the the MM not belong to his W, as in to his M? What often gets left out here is that the BS usually feels that they belong to the M as well. I just don't see the ownership thing. I guess it really just depends on which R you give more respect. The M is the respectable R, IMHO, not the A. The OPs obviously feel the same level of ownership based on the same thing. He doesn't love her, he loves me - is like saying that the OW owns the MM's love and like that makes the W's claim on his affection null and void. So is the pot calling the kettle black? I don't think it is the pot calling the kettle black... I do not believe what you believe about M...I think it's all a choice...A choice to stay married, a choice to get divorced...Not something that cannot or should not be dissolved... Now I think people should do their best to work out their differences, but I for one would not want someone to be with me who didn't love me and thought he should stay because we "own" each other, we have that piece of "paper"... You can't own someone's love...They have to give it willingly...I do not feel ownership of my partner at all...He chose to be with me...He chose to love me...He chose to get divorced...They're "choices" based on free will...Not the duty of ownership... Maybe I misunderstood your post, but that's what I think from what I interpreted from your post... Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I don't think it is the pot calling the kettle black... I do not believe what you believe about M...I think it's all a choice...A choice to stay married, a choice to get divorced...Not something that cannot or should not be dissolved... Now I think people should do their best to work out their differences, but I for one would not want someone to be with me who didn't love me and thought he should stay because we "own" each other, we have that piece of "paper"... You can't own someone's love...They have to give it willingly...I do not feel ownership of my partner at all...He chose to be with me...He chose to love me...He chose to get divorced...They're "choices" based on free will...Not the duty of ownership... Maybe I misunderstood your post, but that's what I think from what I interpreted from your post... Yeah, you misinterpretted it, but its cool. Everything you say is what I feel about my M and H. He chose to be with me. I don't own him. He chose me. I think that is what the people saying entitlement/ownership are missing. I think the W that says me, my, and our is under the same impression that the H has chosen her and is really where he wants to be. If he didn't want to be here, he is free to leave. Always was, always is. I didn't mention anything about choosing to stay married or get divorced. No laws in this country state that both partners have to agree on that. I would think that both would know that they are free to pursue a divorce whether the other wants it or not. But while they are still married, they do belong to and in that MR. Its the same thing when I read OW say that the MM "won't let them leave" the A. Or that he "keeps pulling/sucking [me] back in". Is the OW giving ownership of herself to the MM? We could talk about this in circles, but ultimately I think we are saying the same thing - just semantic differences. Link to post Share on other sites
GreenEyedLady Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Its the same thing when I read OW say that the MM "won't let them leave" the A. Or that he "keeps pulling/sucking [me] back in". Is the OW giving ownership of herself to the MM? Honestly, I think that when people say that, it's a cop-out... The same that it's an addiction... I don't believe it's an addiction, I believe it's a choice... It's a choice to make a bad decision...But we live in a society today where if we make a bad choice, we can make an excuse that it's an addiction or we couldn't help it... People can help it, sometimes they just don't want to...So I think own your choices... No one else owns you unless you let them... Link to post Share on other sites
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