Affairs destroy everyone involved...from the MM.....1223

[whichwayisup]

to add to the that the pressure and guilt of a needy human being who can't and won't let go, is not love it is sense of entitlement.

 

Who are you talking about here? OW or Wife?

 

If he is being true to his heart and his heart is telling him it's time to move on

That is the key...IF he is being true to his heart.

 

on top of the fact that is is hard enough for him to have to do so, to add to the that the pressure and guilt of a needy human being who can't and won't let go

Boo hoo for the MM. He was the one who chose to have the affair in the first place, so he created the fallout of having two women fighting over him. Or having his needy partner whether it be his wife or his OW. If he didn't want the pressure or guilt, then he shouldn't have cheated in the first place and should have chose a different path instead of causing the fallout.

[Tomcat33]

Who are you talking about here? OW or Wife?

 

.

 

The W obviously, he is not telling his W "I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you: while he is having the A he is saying that to the OW, I'd be surprised if as much as a "how was your day" is being exchanged with the spouse, let alone an "I love you" So his heart is definitely NOT in the marriage/W

[Tomcat33]

Boo hoo for the MM. He was the one who chose to have the affair in the first place, so he created the fallout of having two women fighting over him. Or having his needy partner whether it be his wife or his OW. If he didn't want the pressure or guilt, then he shouldn't have cheated in the first place and should have chose a different path instead of causing the fallout.

 

 

When a person puts themselves in that position they are not too concerned with any fallout, they are more concerned with their own happiness, losing a marriage is last on their list of priorities, that's the sad reality. Hence the dragged out break-up of C vs NC post D-day period that happens between the cheater and the OP, the cheater simply can't let go EVEN after the spouse has found out because they care more about how they feel with the OP than they do losing their spouse. That sends a pretty loud message I think. And a lot of BSs don't realise this happens more often than not, so what exactly are you holding on to an idea, a vow, or a person? Certainly not a person because a person has to be in a place in body mind and soul, he is no good in body only.

 

Entitlement is a double edged sword you get what you fight for but what exactly do you end up with? Letting go is always the way to win love, it has to come back on it's own merrit not because it says so on a piece of paper.

[OpenBook]

But marriage IS all about ownership. It always has been, throughout history. The marriage vows might as well say, "You are my property now." The fact that we've thrown in expectations of love and romance into the mix (relatively recently BTW, in historical terms) is simply unrealistic. The marriage vows set the bar too high. The couple sets themselves up for failure.

 

And anyway, this is debating useless semantics. No matter what we say, Stack (and countless millions of other MM out there... perhaps even the H's of some of the posters on here) are right now, at this very moment, thinking of their OW's - and not giving a hoot about what their W is thinking or feeling.

 

Speaking of Stack... Honey are you sure you're really in love with your OW? Did you love her this strongly before she walked away? And if your W took a hike in the same manner, would that make you sit up and pay attention to your M? Just asking, I have no idea... but there is a lot at stake here. When someone gives you good love and accepts you, in spite of all your flaws, that is a rare and precious gift and IMO deserves careful and thoughtful deliberation before throwing it away.

[whichwayisup]

And if your W took a hike in the same manner, would that make you sit up and pay attention to your M?

 

I'll take it a step further...How would you feel if your wife had an OM on the side as well? Ask yourself this question honestly.

[Tomcat33]

But marriage IS all about ownership. It always has been, throughout history.

 

 

Yeaaaahhh and parenthood is about ownership too in a sense, UNTIL you realise your kid who is now taller than you and talking back to you tells you "no I am not going to stop doing that just because you say so" and you no longer have the power to send them up to their room without dessert because they don't even eat dessert anymore..:laugh:

 

Ownership is such a strong word when it comes to people. Mortgage, cars, license, country home, furniture yes, humans...not so much.

[NoIDidn't]

Its pretty clear that TC doesn't understand the subject matter. And that when she is being called on her hypocrisy, she calls it "childish". Well, boo hoo to you.

 

Promises made while one is still bound to other legal promises don't count. You have heard of bigamy, right? You can't marry someone else while still married. A person should have enough since to know that until the M is voided by a divorce, the promises made are simply lipservice.

 

You really put your foot in your mouth with all of your assumptions about my M. If you have been paying attention because I have posted about it more than once, he didn't say any of that stuff immediately after the A. I gave him time to decide what he wanted. I didn't cling or beg. I took care of me and our kids and was making my own decisions about the M. He was free to go, if that was his decision. Just as I was free to go if I decided reconcilling wasn't worth it.

 

TC, it would be to your benefit to stop jumping to wrong conclusions simply to support your argument. Its really hard to be condescending when your info isn't correct. And it makes your post come off as not carefully thought through and foolish.

[White Flower]

 

 

I, for one, would certainly be hurt if my H fell in love with someone else would be VERY hurt and angry. Unless I treated him with complete disdain and indifference, I would NOT understand.

 

Based on our vows, he'd be breaking a BIG ONE. One we spoke about often concerning what it meant to us. "Forsaking all others" to me meant that no matter what I felt for someone else, I have vowed to be faithful to him. To FORSAKE my feelings for another, unless I dissolved what we had agreed to.

 

I don't understnad just how that "no ownership" thing works. Is it really that people feel that way? Or is it just a cop out for the person saying it, so that THEY don't have to be loyal?

No, it's not a cop out. I think, rather, that it is something one comes to understand eventually and sometimes the hard way.

 

When my H had his EA I was full of NOT understanding. I felt I had to constantly remind him of what marriage means and that he should put his W first and be loyal to her. Not to go off on a tangent, but this is where making a promise in youth is not really such a wonderful idea. We don't even know our own chemistry and pheramones and all that yet. We just think it's a good idea and forge ahead. Years later we find ourselves disheartened and stuck. I really tried to make the best of the sitch, but H did not. It got worse from there.

 

When my A began a couple of years later I took a long time thinking it through. I enjoyed MM's company, personality, dreams, and ideals. I also just knew I could be physical with him. Must've been those pheramones. Still, we mulled it over for a long time; longer than most, I believe, to become physical.

 

And this is where that fine line places itself.

 

You KNOW you love this person. You NEED to become physical with the one you love. But you grapple with the GUILT of the possibility of hurting your spouse. Then you STRUGGLE with the final decision to go through with it because it is WORTH losing it all for the one you really love. This is where one sees the epiphany that marriage equals ownership.

 

In IC I was telling my counselor that my H resented me for having to be a H or what I needed in one. He brought up something interesting and said that people shouldn't really have to give up who they are in a marriage through compromising and changing for the other. I asked what the heck was marriage for if two people can't compromise and please each other. After all, I had the changing-myself-for-him down to a tea. He said that people who tend to change for their partners end up resenting them and the M falls apart. So I then asked what is marriage for again and he said that when two people are already right for each other and want to please each other without having to ask for a change is when you see the most successful marriages.

 

In so many of the EMAs you see here at LS the MPs are not right for each other. For some, resentment sets in right away and for others it takes longer. My H was not right for me nor I for him. We cannot hold each other to our vows upon this discovery. It's not the romantic ending we all hope for, but I also think that it is the romantic ending that feeds the 'marriage equals ownership' trend. When I say trend, I mean era or longer.

 

BTW, my H and I spoke with great detail about forsaking all others and what we would do if we felt attracted to another person. He lied so much over the years and every one of his virtues diminished one by one. And while his virtues diminished he still felt that ownership over me.

 

While struggling with the do-I-want-to-become-PA with MM I felt that don't-ask-don't-tell was better than lying. I know it is a form of it but it was my reasoning of choice at the time. I'd like to have left first then become PA, but while in the throws of figuring it all out one realizes that losing the love of their life is just too great a risk not to go for it. In fact, doing it this way has helped me to have more clarity than I would have if I'd left beforehand. I think that if I'd left beforehand I wouldn't be absolutely sure that I had taken the right risk. Now there is no question.

 

And I'm glad you said that if you treated your H with disdain and indifference you could understand him falling in love with someone else. My H did and still does treat me that way and that is why I opened my heart and fell in love with MM.

 

So Stack, go ahead and feel sorry for the lies, that's OK and very normal; you should. But also know that what you did helped you with the realization that you KNOW who you should be with. Let your W know how sorry you are. Ask her to remain friends and support her all you can during and after a D if that's what you decide to do.

 

And just one question: You seem fairly young so why would OW think you weren't sleeping with W? Was it a requirement of hers that she wouldn't sleep with you if you were still intimate with your W?

[JMC]

I believe that my statement regarding my personal experiences affecting my opinion was in reference to this comment from you: "I am not buying that anyone would understand that their spouse fell in love with someone else and would just say "Oh I understand honey, people change, you don't love me anymore, that's okay, I hope you're very happy in your new relationship"." My statement had nothing to do with lying and cheating.

 

You are attacking me and no where have I said I think lying and cheating is ok, lol!

 

Really, IO, get over yourself. I don't have a beef with you. Why are you so adamant to tell me my opinion cannot possibly be valid? Why are you so angry with me? I have done nothing here except express an opinion in which I neither insulted anyone nor degraded anyone else's opinion.

 

Hey Zolie...LOLLLLL it's par for the course for trolls......they love this stuff. It ain't you sweetie. You're fine. Post away sweetie.

[NoIDidn't]

Same could be asked you of you, "did you give ownership of yourself to your H because he chose to stay with you after he cheated on you?" Weren't you sucked back into your marriage with the words of "I am commited to making this work."?

 

You are so far off the mark with this comment, I had to quote it.

 

How does the one that isn't out of the M cheating get sucked back in?

 

When did I ever state that my H said "I am committed to making this work"?

 

Maybe you are speaking in general terms. But I doubt it, since you did say you could ask me (as in me, the poster NID) those questions. So, I guess the answer is "NO", you cannot ask me those questions as those things NEVER happened. And, in my case, NO, it doesn't work both ways. Thanks for the laugh, though.

 

 

In your world, apparently only the MM has choices. I chose to stay in my M. However, if my H chose to leave, he could have. See WE decided to stay married to EACH OTHER. See, I had a choice too.

[Tomcat33]

Its pretty clear that TC doesn't understand the subject matter. And that when she is being called on her hypocrisy, she calls it "childish". Well, boo hoo to you.

 

Promises made while one is still bound to other legal promises don't count. You have heard of bigamy, right? You can't marry someone else while still married. A person should have enough since to know that until the M is voided by a divorce, the promises made are simply lipservice.

 

You really put your foot in your mouth with all of your assumptions about my M. If you have been paying attention because I have posted about it more than once, he didn't say any of that stuff immediately after the A. I gave him time to decide what he wanted. I didn't cling or beg. I took care of me and our kids and was making my own decisions about the M. He was free to go, if that was his decision. Just as I was free to go if I decided reconcilling wasn't worth it.

 

TC, it would be to your benefit to stop jumping to wrong conclusions simply to support your argument. Its really hard to be condescending when your info isn't correct. And it makes your post come off as not carefully thought through and foolish.

 

What does that even mean?!?!?

 

 

What did I say about keeing your own situation out of this discussion? You really would benefit from that, a discussion that doesn't have to get emotional is so much better than one that degenerates into low blows because one cannot seperate themselves from the concepts. I guess you are incapable of that. So I am no longer having this discussion with you.

[Tomcat33]

So Stack, go ahead and feel sorry for the lies, that's OK and very normal; you should. But also know that what you did helped you with the realization that you KNOW who you should be with. Let your W know how sorry you are. Ask her to remain friends and support her all you can during and after a D if that's what you decide to do.

 

 

That was a beautiful post WF!!!

 

And I couldn't agree more on the bolded part.

[White Flower]

That was a beautiful post WF!!!

 

And I couldn't agree more on the bolded part.

 

Thanks, TC.

 

I wish all Ds would end like that with both parties amicable and respectful.

[NoIDidn't]

I don't think anyone means that at all. I call MM 'my MM' and have been flamed for that. But, he is MY lover, isn't he?

 

But the idea of marriage equalling ownership especially with regard to loyalty is the issue. I'm sure you've heard the expression, "loyal to a fault". That was me. Even though my H thought he was my boss, decided how we would spend our money, decided where we'd go on vacation, belittled me in front of his family and friends, etc., etc., I was still loyal. Loyal to a fault. My loyalty didn't make for a good marriage. My loyal self had lost its self-identity until I became very resentful. And my resentful self was not good for the M either. Then I realized we are just not right for each other. It was the loyalty issue that made it hard to leave even while in the midst of an A.

 

Loyalty is not always good.

 

WF

 

We aren't talking about an abusive R, M or otherwise. We are speaking in general terms. I feel for you for what you went through, but how your H treated you isn't the subject. The situation you bring up is an extreme and not the usual in terms of the we, our, me, and my of marriage. Being in a controller/enabler M is out of the spectrum of what we were talking about.

 

Where and how did loyalty enter the conversation? I just want someone to tell me how a BWs feelings about her H, equate to feeling as if she owns her H? Everyone has attempted to change the parameters of the question, so it hasn't been answered yet.

[White Flower]

WF

 

We aren't talking about an abusive R, M or otherwise. We are speaking in general terms. I feel for you for what you went through, but how your H treated you isn't the subject. The situation you bring up is an extreme and not the usual in terms of the we, our, me, and my of marriage. Being in a controller/enabler M is out of the spectrum of what we were talking about.

 

Where and how did loyalty enter the conversation? I just want someone to tell me how a BWs feelings about her H, equate to feeling as if she owns her H? Everyone has attempted to change the parameters of the question, so it hasn't been answered yet.

 

NID, I brought up the marriage=ownership issue because I believe we have that expectation deep down inside even if we don't admit it. Someone else brought up the loyalty issue and I followed suit because I related to it.

 

I have no problem with labeling people 'my' as I stated earlier. That is not really the same issue.

 

When we expect someone to keep their vows that were made at 20 or even 30 and they do not, we act as if they have wronged us. What if they wronged themselves? Again, M is a romantic dream and it is enforced by an undercurrent of ownership.

 

Quite literally even a hundred years ago or so men owned their wives. Times have changed legally but internally we still harbor certain ideas.

 

Often in the infidelity threads here at LS you'll see the W forgive their H time and again, but just read the conversations between men when one of the men had a cheating W. "Dump the disloyal b****" is what you'll hear time and again. I suppose men can probably relate to the marriage=ownership theory better than women.

 

But if both people are right for each other and can still blend their lives beautifully without the expectation of ownership ('promise you won't leave me even if you fall out of love with me') then you'll have a harmonious marriage. And you still may get the romantic ending.

[NoIDidn't]

When we expect someone to keep their vows that were made at 20 or even 30 and they do not, we act as if they have wronged us. What if they wronged themselves? Again, M is a romantic dream and it is enforced by an undercurrent of ownership.

 

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

 

I understand what you seem to be trying to say, but its not accurate, IMO.

 

The person that dishonors the vows HAS wronged us. I am sure that your H vowed to cherish and honor you, but he tore you down instead. And, I am sure that you feel very wronged by that. Do you feel that your H has wronged himself since he feels so much more superior to you that he felt you an inept W all those years? I am sure you don't.

 

I don't use your personal situation to demean you in any way. Just asking some tough questions that require honest answers. I am certain that you don't feel that he wronged himself, but that he wronged you. You didn't marry him to be treated like that. No one does. Which is precisely the point. We do expect the vows to be kept and we have every right to our hurt and angry feelings when they are not. The anger you have towards your own H for not treating you with respect, not a vow but certainly an expectation in a marriage, is evident in your post about it.

[whichwayisup]

I wish all Ds would end like that with both parties amicable and respectful.

Maybe if a D happened first and not cheating, lying and betraying, then many D's wouldn't be so full of devastation.

[bentnotbroken]

Maybe if a D happened first and not cheating, lying and betraying, then many D's wouldn't be so full of devastation.

 

 

 

I think that has always been the thing that pissed me off the most. Not that Mr. Messy wanted a D. But that instead of just saying to me, I am not happy with you and I would like to find someone to be happy with, I would have been hurt, but I would have received the respect that I and 20 plus years deserved. By lying, sneaking, cheating and helping to hurt another man and his children, he changed how I will forever view him. He cared about no one but him and her. Not the other people involved.

[child_of_isis]

Your fear of life is greater than your love for OW.

 

And it is not the man you have becomes that disgusts you, but the fearful man you have always been.

 

That is probably why your ego needed the attention of 2 women....to distract yourself from the fear.

 

I think the truth that bubbles from these A's are the most painful. Everyone learns a lot about themselves.

 

I once told OW that given my two small children, my company, and my comfortable lifestyle, leaving was just not an option...and there are certain things I couldn't justify giving up for love. In retrospect, it was one of the stupidest decisions I have ever made. She is gone forever at this point, and should be!

Looking in the mirror at myself, I am disgusted with the man I have become.

The only positive things to come out of this is knowing how it feels to be left by the person you love (so I don't let that love slip away again), and knowing I will never ever do this again to anyone.

Please think about all the people you are hurting by engaging in an affair.

 

Sorry for the rant, I just had no where else to even express this.

[Impudent Oyster]

 

 

 

When we expect someone to keep their vows that were made at 20 or even 30 and they do not, we act as if they have wronged us. What if they wronged themselves?

 

I FULLY expect my spouse to keep his vows even if they were made 40 or 50 or 60 years ago, and if he does not, then he HAS wronged me.

 

How is it that you don't agree? Are vows only supposed to be kept for 5 years? 10? When do they expire?

[silktricks]

The W obviously, he is not telling his W "I love you and want to spend the rest of my life with you: while he is having the A he is saying that to the OW, I'd be surprised if as much as a "how was your day" is being exchanged with the spouse, let alone an "I love you" So his heart is definitely NOT in the marriage/W

Although this is undoubtedly true in many cases, it isn't true in all. For sure it wasn't true in my case. At the same time my h was saying to the ow that he loved her he was telling me that we were soul mates. While he was sending her letters and leading her to believe that she was his future he was taking me on special romantic holidays.

 

All I'm saying is that assumptions can't be made about what is going on between the married couple. Those assumptions could well be the opposite of reality.

 

About the question of "ownership" I'm a pretty old school type of person. I like the feeling of being "owned" by my h. And it appears that he likes it as well. So maybe it's simply not something that is the same for all.

 

I know that attitude can be uncomfortable for others at times, though.

[whichwayisup]

I guess it all depends on how some feel about vows, marriage and committment.

 

I FULLY expect my spouse to keep his vows even if they were made 40 or 50 or 60 years ago, and if he does not, then he HAS wronged me.

 

How is it that you don't agree? Are vows only supposed to be kept for 5 years? 10? When do they expire?

Edited February 13, 2008 by whichwayisup
add in quote.

[JessieT]

The thing about instantly divorcing if you've fallen for someone else rather than cheat and lie is that divorce is not seen as a positive move by society in general. I think some cheaters, and no, I don't mean the cakeaters, get stuck between a rock and a hard place. They love a new person but they've been told their whole life that divorce is wrong, that you stick to it forever because that's how it works.

 

So what is their choice? They can lie and cheat which is forbidden to them or they can divorce, which is forbidden to them. In addition to divorce being wrong, they've also learned that having children from a broken home is wrong. In that moment, the lesser evil is cheating and lying because it is only one wrong, not multiple wrongs.

 

And then when they can't deal with the guilt of even one wrong, they go back to the marriage and are miserable but at least they're doing "the right thing".

 

Divorce may be becoming more acceptable but it's not even remotely close to being seen as a good thing.

 

But that's not all cheaters, I do get that.

 

I think people should spend less time condemning people, everyone makes poor choices at one time or another, cheating is no better or worse than any other ones, such as driving a car drunk, not using birth control, or a myriad of other lifechanging decisions. None of these means that they are a bad person, it just means that they are a person, as inherently flawed and weak as all the rest of us.

[serial muse]

You're right, Zolie.

 

It goes back to the idea of marriage=ownership. People still feel very strongly about that so that is why they flame. I wonder if they would like someone to be stuck with them forever if they didn't feel loved by them?

 

I just want to throw out there that to me, as a former BS, the issue is and always has been not one of ownership but of honesty and trust. That, IMO, is what the marriage "contract" is really all about, and I simply don't see how there's ever going to be any kind of time limit on that, no matter whether people fell out of love with each other, grew, changed, whatever. You can grow out of a marriage, nobody owns anybody, people sometimes want to move on and love elsewhere. Sure, okay, work it out. But you don't grow out of the responsibility to be honest and respectful to your partner, or the agreement that you basically made to honor him/her. Not ever.

[whichwayisup]

But you don't grow out of the responsibility to be honest and respectful to your partner. Not ever.

 

All that goes out the window when a WS decides to have an affair in live in affairyland.