Author LakesideDream Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 LsD, I think you know BH would not confront you violently. I'd invite him in for a beer. After all, he loved your lady enough at one time to marry her. I'd support that commonality of interest. Is that enough of a devil's advocate for you? I'm speaking from a bit of experience here..... Car... I'll have to buy a 6 pack, "just in case". Seriously I'm sure he loves her, and I'm equally sure he watches her like a hawk (vulture?). I would still snap that lock until I could get a sense of his intentions, why take silly chances. I'm a born again non-violent person, I avoid physical conflict. I'm not sure what there would be to talk about anyway. I had many many oppertunities to speak with my ex's new man (now husband) and had absolutely no interest in doing so. I'm not sure how I would have dealt with a smart ass comment, or the like. Better to avoid it altogether methinks. Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Reggie, I've often speculated that the fact that "I knew her when" (I was her first) that I had prior claim. Fairly weak excuse I understand, but it worked (works) for me.[/QUOT Exacrly how does it work,when, apparently, you can see it is fallacious? Do you think that trauma from your XWW's affair messed you up, such that you've lost your sense of right and wrong in this area?Is it like " well, apparently all folks are untrustworthy, so, I'll engage in behavior that goes against my old values , pre-emptively". I sort of had this mindset for a while, the screw or be screwed thing, after my first wife's affairs. I'd drank lots of Catholic Kool-aid growing up though, and the fear of loss of my immortal soul held me back. My best friend, a really smart thoracic surgeon that I'd grown up with used to lament the fact that our education did such a number on us that we were incapable of participating in all the affairs that were going on around us. Well, maybe this will payoff in reduced purgatory time(and, we got plenary indulgences as kids for going to mass everyfirst Friday of the month for 9 months. Bought ourselves a little insurance, there. My Church has some really weird ideas on this stuff. When I got my plenary banked, I often wondered if I did not now have carte blanc for the future.) Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Perhaps, when such a dynamic becomes irrelevant, then the proper signals will flow to the intended. Interesting thought, isn't it, given the nature and personality of the woman involved here. TBH, I know it'll never happen, but exploring the mindset/perspective does have its merits, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LakesideDream Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 Reggie, I've often speculated that the fact that "I knew her when" (I was her first) that I had prior claim. Fairly weak excuse I understand, but it worked (works) for me.[/QUOT Exacrly how does it work,when, apparently, you can see it is fallacious? Do you think that trauma from your XWW's affair messed you up, such that you've lost your sense of right and wrong in this area? To be truthful Reggie, I don't think about any of it. The ex was a long time ago now, as was the affairs beginning. I'm an old man now, and while I don't feel entitled to be happy, it is a pleasant fantasy. I'd tell you to come back with your opinion in 25 years or so when you've had a chance to walk my path... but I'll be croaked I'm sure. It's all pretty much a pleasing fantasy now anyway. I can't take the speculations you raise very seriously. Oh, and I'm not worried about "the afterlife" either. Way to much water under the bridge to begin worrying now, or for that matter for being "born again" and cleansed for the rest of my life. Way to much blood on my hands for that. Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I suspect we are in the same demographic, Lakeside, children of the 60's. I seem to recall you may have some military background(maybe this is mixed up with OWL). I have quite a few friends that were in Vietnam with blood on their hands. Seems to have made some very fatalistic. I'm in much the same mode as you, though in terms of my expectations re what life has to offer. I've been married twice and both wives were serially cheating. So, I have very low expectations re romance and whether this whole relationship thing is a bill of goods we were sold. But, I would think that would apply to the prospects of a genuine relationship with this woman, as well, particularly in light of her willingness to cheat on a man you describe as a decent guy. So, do we go through life with this loss of innocence, just grabbing temporary bits of pleasure here and there? I do not object to this, so long as I do not hurt someone else(like the BH). I do not know how your XWW's infidelity affected you in this regard. But, for me, this infidelity stuff woke me up to what people can really be like. So, with the desire to somewhat cling to my old, pollyanna view of romance and relationships, it is difficult to re-invent myself to adapt to reality. Maybe once it fully happens, one is a lot freer, as one really accepts the truth. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LakesideDream Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 I suspect we are in the same demographic, Lakeside, children of the 60's. I seem to recall you may have some military background(maybe this is mixed up with OWL). I have quite a few friends that were in Vietnam with blood on their hands. Seems to have made some very fatalistic. I'm in much the same mode as you, though in terms of my expectations re what life has to offer. I've been married twice and both wives were serially cheating. So, I have very low expectations re romance and whether this whole relationship thing is a bill of goods we were sold. But, I would think that would apply to the prospects of a genuine relationship with this woman, as well, particularly in light of her willingness to cheat on a man you describe as a decent guy. So, do we go through life with this loss of innocence, just grabbing temporary bits of pleasure here and there? I do not object to this, so long as I do not hurt someone else(like the BH). I do not know how your XWW's infidelity affected you in this regard. But, for me, this infidelity stuff woke me up to what people can really be like. So, with the desire to somewhat cling to my old, pollyanna view of romance and relationships, it is difficult to re-invent myself to adapt to reality. Maybe once it fully happens, one is a lot freer, as one really accepts the truth. Fatalistic? While I've never thought about the term, I suppose it's as accurate as any. I'm not an "optomistic" person. That was pushed out of me by 35. Sorry you had two failed marriages. That must be a very defeating situation. One was enough for me. I seriously doubt that there would be a second marriage for me. I could be wrong, but it seems a senseless excercise at 59 years old, with no upside and a signifigant financial downside. Committed relationship yes, marriage no. Everyone seems concerned that a late 50's woman who cheated once (just once), will cheat again. That doesen't seem sensible or relevant to me. At this age, the importance biased toward happiness. We've done everything else, career, raised children, etc. If partners are happy cheating isn't a problem. Why else have a "new relationship" at this point if happiness isn't the goal? I've never had any "polyanna" views of romance or relationships. Both take effort to maintain. Kismet, or Camalot" is the stuff of romance novels. The desire to build a "happy future" lessens with each passing year. To me the "future" is 2010, not 2025. If there is a point to this thread/story it is that I have accepted the reality of the situation. Reality = Truth. I absolutely feel free. The rest of my life is in my hands. The fantasy (not reality, there is a difference) is to have someone to share my life with. That goal slips further into the ether as time marches on. Link to post Share on other sites
OldEurope Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 "Reality" is not an abstraction, though. It is an attitude towards life. If you think that you are not going to find love after 59, you are right. If you think you are going to find love after 59, you are right. Too many hide behind the cloak of "reality" to dampen energies, hide disappointment. 59 just is not that old today. 80 perhaps is. Many a man--and a very handsome man--has married again, late 50s, 60s, whatever, with a full heart and a wise mind. It mustn't be so bleak... Life mirrors back the attitude we present to it--I have found this to be strangely, fascinatingly true. A lot of pluck and defiance can mold "reality" the way one wants it. It needn't mean recklessness, but shrinking away before the bogeyman of cynicism is early death... It took a lot of guts to do what you did moving out there; you also knew the surprise element of moving there in the first place for the reasons you did were rather adventurous. Keep that spirit, and you'll attract them left and right. I think the game of love is a fun game of psychology back and forth. And yeah, the romance part exists too... xoxoOE Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 LsD, do you anticipate yourself to be emotionally available to another woman anytime soon? Have you seen any movement in that process since this reality has settled in? Letting go of that bond is exceedingly difficult. I know it is. At the same time, it can be exciting to discover or re-discover a perspective you perhaps thought was lost to you. I think that is what OE is alluding to, that of the mirror of life reflecting back the image you present to it. I know you've thought about it. The trick is feeling it. Truly Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I agree , 59 is not that old. I had this discussion today, with a contemporary whose wife of 28 years had been cheating on him his entire marriage. He recently found out and is divorcing. We are both dealing with the same conflict re ever getting involved again. We do not want to go through this again and have to face that we should have seen signs in ou wives(both had histories of cheating pre - marriage). I suggested that, perhaps, the key was to really do one's due diligence pre-enmeshment. If there is a history of cheating in any capacity, walk. Look for other inconsistencies or red flags, like CD problems, bad credit, poor work history etc. And, realize what they may mean. Both our wives were very physically attractive(almost as much as we are:)) and that caused us to gloss over and rationalize.). We were both from conservative, sheltered backgrounds and did not realize or want to realize there are many bright, attractive folks out there that have values significantly different than our own. So, I guess the key for me in contemplating a relationship is to really see things for what they are and believe it when a person's history tells the story. Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 On the bright side, I got 5 great kids that love me and have very good relationships with them. As for the "failed " marriage, I don't think of it like that. It implies to me that there was something I could have done to stop what happened. And, I know with certainty, I could not have. Both XWW's familes came to me at some point after d-days and told me point blank that my wives were seriously messed up for a long time before I was on the scene. It was a failure, though, in terms of my selection process> The trade-off is the kids are in existence. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LakesideDream Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 "Reality" is not an abstraction, though. It is an attitude towards life. If you think that you are not going to find love after 59, you are right. If you think you are going to find love after 59, you are right. Too many hide behind the cloak of "reality" to dampen energies, hide disappointment. 59 just is not that old today. 80 perhaps is. Many a man--and a very handsome man--has married again, late 50s, 60s, whatever, with a full heart and a wise mind. It mustn't be so bleak... Life mirrors back the attitude we present to it--I have found this to be strangely, fascinatingly true. A lot of pluck and defiance can mold "reality" the way one wants it. It needn't mean recklessness, but shrinking away before the bogeyman of cynicism is early death... It took a lot of guts to do what you did moving out there; you also knew the surprise element of moving there in the first place for the reasons you did were rather adventurous. Keep that spirit, and you'll attract them left and right. I think the game of love is a fun game of psychology back and forth. And yeah, the romance part exists too... xoxoOE Old World, Reality is what is. Reality is not a concept it is a constant. The fact that the sun will rise tomorrow is reality. The knowledge that I must go to work tomorrow is reality. Reality cannot be an "attitude". Link to post Share on other sites
Author LakesideDream Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 LsD, do you anticipate yourself to be emotionally available to another woman anytime soon? Have you seen any movement in that process since this reality has settled in? Letting go of that bond is exceedingly difficult. I know it is. At the same time, it can be exciting to discover or re-discover a perspective you perhaps thought was lost to you. I think that is what OE is alluding to, that of the mirror of life reflecting back the image you present to it. I know you've thought about it. The trick is feeling it. Truly Car, I haven't felt emotionally available at any point in the past half decade. I cannot say whether that will change. Anticipation doesen't seem relevant. I have "let go" of the "bond". That doesen't seem to be connected to anything else. I am not, and have not been inspired to make any other changes in my life. I'm outta gas right now. The though of becoming "emotionally involved" is odious. So much effort without a defined outcome. I smile, and flirt, and make casual friends easily. I'm not inspired to try and turn casual friends into more serious entanglements. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LakesideDream Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 So, I guess the key for me in contemplating a relationship is to really see things for what they are and believe it when a person's history tells the story. Reggie, your post above (in total) is very depressing. When I do my "due dillegence" I have always, without fail been appalled. Most people of similar ages to ours, who are single are living "train wreck" lives. Where are you finding ladies? I have been introduced to a couple of gals since moving here. They seemed nice. I was suprised in the interrogations they put me through. I was amused by the whole process though. One marriage, a decade divorced, own my home outright, own my own profitable business, zero outstanding debt.. 8 year old car, and a reasonably stable income/lifestyle seemed to meet their needs. No Boat, or RV were negetives of course. Their lives on the other hand were a shambles. 1BR apartments, or more likely room mates, huge debt, newer cars, zero savings, with pleadings that they were "getting by". I have had the feeling that they were looking to upgrade their lifestyles..... I have hesitated in becoming the vehicle in their quests. Sorry if that seems cynical. With respects to OldWorld, that has been the reality of the situation. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 OK, that's the path. I haven't heard you articulate it so clearly before. I don't think the adventure is over just yet. Link to post Share on other sites
OldEurope Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Reggie, your post above (in total) is very depressing. When I do my "due dillegence" I have always, without fail been appalled. Most people of similar ages to ours, who are single are living "train wreck" lives. Where are you finding ladies? I have been introduced to a couple of gals since moving here. They seemed nice. I was suprised in the interrogations they put me through. I was amused by the whole process though. One marriage, a decade divorced, own my home outright, own my own profitable business, zero outstanding debt.. 8 year old car, and a reasonably stable income/lifestyle seemed to meet their needs. No Boat, or RV were negetives of course. Their lives on the other hand were a shambles. 1BR apartments, or more likely room mates, huge debt, newer cars, zero savings, with pleadings that they were "getting by". I have had the feeling that they were looking to upgrade their lifestyles..... I have hesitated in becoming the vehicle in their quests. Sorry if that seems cynical. With respects to OldWorld, that has been the reality of the situation. LD, The sun coming up tomorrow is scientific fact; your going to work tomorrow is an obligation and a choice. What you call "reality" in terms of your conclusions about the world is a far different matter. The world treats us the way we it allow it to treat us. You might meet flakey women or your lady love might not have been interested in a relationship at this time, but if you are going to let the reactions and attitudes or bad character of others color your world so cynically, then that is the product of your own will. It is your decision to allow these things to influence your perspective. When I moved abroad, the "reality" was that I didn't know anyone, didn't know the language, didn't even have steady work lined up other than free-lance. For most, this would have been an overwhelming "reality" to deal with. I MADE my reality through a state of mind, a series of calculated risks, and yes, and attitude. And it all turned around and turned out . well for me... You said that you stopped being optimistic at 35....That right there is shocking enough...To be in a negative cast of mind for so long cannot possibly bring about a happy environment. People have suffered immense tragedies in life yet maintain a strong outlook out of a desire to live a spirited life. You can knock what I am saying as pop psychology but it is not. It is a cast of mind that determines what our relationship to the world is...and so has said many a Roman general, Napoleon...etc... Your will can overcome any "reality" when and how you want...This attitude has gotten humanity through the worst possible circumstances in the course of history, and the big guns made reality. It did not make them. As for the women, I am going to say something harsh. If you and Reggie are attracting the same ol same ol each and every time, you must be careful as to what kind of vibe you are sending out to what kinds of types. Women "with problems" move in for the kill where they see a man whom they think will be easy to manipulate. This doesn't mean a man has to be a jerk, bastard, a$$ or without manners. It means you have to be cocksure and confident as all heck. I wonder if in your melancholy regarding your lady friend, you do not send out signals of sadness, hence emotional vulnerability. Women pick up on this, and they use it in many ways. As they say, if you keep doing what you're doing you are going to keep getting what you are getting. Change yourself and the world changes with you. xoxOE Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I agree with what I understand Old Europe to be saying. I feel that one can control one's reality by making good, informed decisions and controlling one's actions. I do not worry about that which I cannot control and I have had my eyes opened as to what to avoid. I don't find this depressing, at all. It feels empowering. Lakeside, I meet women all the time, in a variety of ways. I am fairly outgoing and I like people. So, I get approached a fair amount and I also strike up conversations with people. I'm decent looking and athletic, so that helps, too, I guess I do not pass out a questionairre. It's just that while having a conversation, I listen and people tell you about themselves. Just like what happened to you, when you found out about the women valuing RVs and boats, Lakeside, I can tell pretty fast when someone's values don't match up with mine. I do not put much stock in a person's material wealth or living situation, though ,as I realize some people have had misfortune in their lives or have less ability to earn material things. That is not important to me. I try to look for qualities like kindness and empathy, and intelligence. There are many women that match up with me. But, I am significantly more cautious in getting involved. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LakesideDream Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 OldWorld, You post was interesting, and amusing at the same time. The idea that a woman could "spot me" and think that I would be easy to manipulate is pretty amusing in itself! I smile and play the easy going guy as well as anyone I suppose but I never hide the fact that I born again hard, a former Marine, and will tolerate little foolishness. The women I have met here have been "fix ups" I didn't choose them. Although I suppose they had ample oppertunity to check me out as I have a reasonable profile here in town. Cocksure and confident? I think that describes me fairly well. I would never mention my "friend" to anyone I knew or went out with. Nobody in this town who I have met knows anything about the situation. I'd be willing to wager that the only people other than her or I that know anything about it are her girlfriends. The secret is safe with me. For one I don't want it to get back to her H and cause her trouble, two there is no reason to spread my personal / emotional life around in public. I also know that Women don't find men who are pining their lives away attractive. Maybe I'm just not ready for a new relationship. I'm certainly not looking for one. I'm happy LoveShack is here to share ideas. Thanks for yours. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LakesideDream Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Reggie, a persons wealth or living situation doesen't concern me except as it reflects on their personalities. It seems that the majority of the women I have met here, and where I previously lived have been divorced 3-4 times, have sad stories and are looking for ways to repeat their mistakes. I am not a high maintance man. I cook my own meals, keep my home presentable, wash the dishes, do my laundry, make the beds, treat the furniture (leather) blah blah. I do hire a guy who takes care of the tile (most of the house) every couple of months. And I have a landscaper to kill the weeds, trim the shrubs and trees, and blow around the rocks. I decided that's the way I wanted it to be. My home isn't intimidating, other than the kitchen and my bedroom it's a bit spartan. I've spent a couple of months thinking about houseplants.. cactii? I can't imagine anyone views me as "vulnerable". Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Sounds like a pretty decent life, Lakeside. Why would you want this woman in it? Link to post Share on other sites
Author LakesideDream Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Sounds like a pretty decent life, Lakeside. Why would you want this woman in it? That's the easiest question I've been asked on this thread. I'm in love with her. Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 That's the easiest question I've been asked on this thread. I'm in love with her. How's that working out for you? Link to post Share on other sites
OldEurope Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 It isn't about its "working out" anything, it is! Let the man love! By the way, this story isn't over... xoOE Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Yes, I realize it "is". And, no one can stop anyone form feeling as he does, except him. Stories are never over and this one is no different. Sounds like he likes his situation, thus, he remains in it. It's not for everyone, but , it's his choice. Link to post Share on other sites
Author LakesideDream Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 It isn't about its "working out" anything, it is! Let the man love! By the way, this story isn't over... xoOE "How's that working out for you" Sorry Reggie, a trite "Dr. Phil" quote seems to be way below you. I'm sure Dr. Phil would send me away for a long "de-tox" and hammer me with unwelcome platitudes. This life I live isn't fodder for a 40 minute "cure". I'm willing and content to live the rest of my life in this little town, minding my own business and continuing to enjoy the chapter in life that I began over a year ago. "I wants" are not important anymore. Haven't been in quite awhile now. When I was younger I "wanted" lots of money, fancy cars, social position, and the rest. Why? Mostly because it would have made my then wife happy, and provided a better living and future for my two children. My dream then was being retired in a medium sized log cabin in the High Sierra's with enough resources for my then wife and I to be comfortable forever. Romantic idealism, heck ya! What I have isn't so different. A nice home, with a kickass air conditioning system deep in the desert replaced the log cabin and High Sierra's.. No wife to share it with, but comfort beyond my previous experiance. I'm responsible for me. I'm getting good at it. Hopefully, somehow, someway, someday I can learn how to include someone else in my comfort. Time is on my side and a Twinkle is just a smile away. Link to post Share on other sites
Reggie Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Sounds good. Sorry about the Dr PHil sound bite. I did not even realize it was from him. I never watch him and feel he is bogus. Link to post Share on other sites
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