Bought a new Home today The Adventure Begins!

[LakesideDream]

When I went to my IC, it wasn't for conflicted or uncertain emotions, it was for ice cold, white rage while in survivor mode. Trust me, there was nothing uncertain or conflicted about it, what-so-ever!

 

Physical violence or killing weren't acceptable options at any time for me, so at least that was off the table.

 

The IC and myself went through a lot of things, through historical information about both of us, our relationship, etc. You might be surprised what IC might dig up for you. It dug up some things of interest for me that hadn't occurred to me and were extremely useful to me.

 

Whether this continues to decrease your respect for my opinion/advice is moot to me. It's information and advice laid on the table for you to consider or ignore.

 

I respect you opinion TBF. I just don't agree. I don't relate well to talking about my "problems" (which I don't consider to be problems) with "counselors" who are a quarter century younger than I am. Their life experiances just are not comparable to mine.

 

I am genuinely happy that you received good results from your IC sessions. One size however, does not fit all.

[White Flower]

And you'll be betraying him too, by enabling her to betray him.

 

You wish him no Ill will?

 

Funny, your actions speak LOUDER than your words! Sleeping with his wife, whether the marriage is good or not doesn't make a difference!

 

How are you concerned for her husband? How can you be? After all, You're the one helping to cause all of this!

 

I know you can't muster any pain for him, because you're not the one who's going (to be/has been) betrayed in this case.

 

Interesting, It looks to me like, since you've been betrayed yourself, you want to see if you can do the exact same thing to someone else that's been done to you. That's what I'm getting.

It is not a matter of wanting to see if one can cause the exact same experience to someone else; rather, LsD knows through experience that the future BH will get through it.

 

I know I have felt genuine pain for my exMM's W even though I sincerely loved her H at the time. I never wanted her to hurt or suffer and that is why I went to great lengths to keep it a secret. Glad I did because now they are together and she is fine.

 

Had I wanted her to suffer ill will I would have trapsed all over her town with him, called her names and called her home, and god knows what else.

 

The point being, LsD's OW will make the final decision and it will be SHE who hurts her H if she so decides to leave him.

[Trialbyfire]

The point being, LsD's OW will make the final decision and it will be SHE who hurts her H if she so decides to leave him.

So what happens if it blows sky high beforehand?

 

Also, not only is the CS responsible, so is the OM/OM. In an affair, there are three parties. Two parties have a choice, one party has no choice or knowledge.

[White Flower]

Well there are many MPs who leave their spouses without being in an affair. Still, the one who is left has no choice.

[Trialbyfire]

Most often in situations like this, the remaining spouse doesn't have the emotional impact of being consistently lied to by someone who they loved/who they thought loved them back.

[White Flower]

True, TBF, but in the end the left party still has no choice in the matter. Then again, my STBeXH lied to me consistently when he was supposed to love me and he wasn't even cheating at the time I decided to divorce him.

[Trimmer]

It is not a matter of wanting to see if one can cause the exact same experience to someone else; rather, LsD knows through experience that the future BH will get through it.

Ahhh... I always thought that having gone through a betrayal might possibly make one more sensitized to it, and less likely to choose to involve oneself in bringing that trauma upon others, but this just makes it extra insidious.

 

It's like a chain reaction, feeding itself - once you've been betrayed, you feel like you are owed, and so you figure that (1) your happiness trumps all and takes precedence over what used to be your scruples, and (2) that since you got through it, you can absolve yourself of any complicity in visiting the same havoc upon the future BS's of your own dalliances, because after all, based on your own experience, you know they'll "get through it." It's all just about enlightenment, really. Hey, maybe you're really helping them grow because once they become enlightened, they can go seek out their own affairs, and the cycle repeats itself...

 

You know, I can understand the narrow, technical parsing of the "I'm not responsible for others' feelings... They have to own their own reactions to things..." attitude. But in the end, be honest - isn't that just code for "I don't care how I affect other people?" I think I would understand better, and have more respect for (if still not being in agreement with) someone who said "I just don't care about the BS, as long as I get what I'm after" instead of trying to cache it behind rationalizations like "Well, the BS has to own his own reaction to this; I'm not responsible for his feelings." It all means the same thing doesn't it? Which one sounds more genuinely honest?

[Owl]

I would agree.

 

I think that sitting there and coldly calculating and planning the devestation and damage of another human being's life for your own personal gain IS your own personal responsibility.

 

And this is EXACTLY what LSD is contemplating.

 

And...he KNOWS that damage from first hand, personal experience.

 

But he's still more than willing to proceed in this.

[Mustang Sally]

Like TBF, this thread makes me sad.

 

I went back and reread it in its entirety yesterday.

 

It seems that the OP states he has reportedly tried "everything," but this woman still has captured his heart. Therefore he feels entitled and justified in pursuing a romantic relationship with her, despite her being already married.

 

I'm not sure about the "everything." LsD, have you tried No Contact with her (and I mean No Contact with intent to force her hand to decide to leave her M to be with you)?

 

If not, then I'm not sure you have tried "everything."

[White Flower]

Ahhh... I always thought that having gone through a betrayal might possibly make one more sensitized to it, and less likely to choose to involve oneself in bringing that trauma upon others, but this just makes it extra insidious.

We ARE more sensitized to it AND we have the experience of overcoming it and know that it makes us stronger. Through that experience, we know others will survive.

 

It's like a chain reaction, feeding itself - once you've been betrayed, you feel like you are owed, and so you figure that (1) your happiness trumps all and takes precedence over what used to be your scruples, and (2) that since you got through it, you can absolve yourself of any complicity in visiting the same havoc upon the future BS's of your own dalliances, because after all, based on your own experience, you know they'll "get through it."

Nope. Not like that. I didn't feel owed; rather, I was pursued by someone for a very long time who eventually I felt was right for me at the time.

It's all just about enlightenment, really. Hey, maybe you're really helping them grow because once they become enlightened, they can go seek out their own affairs, and the cycle repeats itself...

Who knows? Could be. I don't plan anyone's future; I just live my own life. Not all BS become OPs.

You know, I can understand the narrow, technical parsing of the "I'm not responsible for others' feelings... They have to own their own reactions to things..." attitude. But in the end, be honest - isn't that just code for "I don't care how I affect other people?" I think I would understand better, and have more respect for (if still not being in agreement with) someone who said "I just don't care about the BS, as long as I get what I'm after" instead of trying to cache it behind rationalizations like "Well, the BS has to own his own reaction to this; I'm not responsible for his feelings." It all means the same thing doesn't it? Which one sounds more genuinely honest?

I actually cared for exMM's W's feelings. If he had chosen me over her I would have been extremely careful with the way I treated her and would have helped her understand any of it if she asked. I would have made sure she had access to him at any time and also made sure she was invited to any future events because I wouldn't want her to feel excluded any further than already having lost her husband.

 

I could go on and on about how I think the world should be after a divorce but the fact is some OPs really do care about what happens to the BSs.

[Trimmer]

We ARE more sensitized to it AND we have the experience of overcoming it and know that it makes us stronger. Through that experience, we know others will survive.

Well, I won't understand, then, how you and I ended up with such polar attitudes, as my experience - while making me unquestionably stronger - also strengthened my inhibition against visiting a situation like this upon someone else, while you seem to be saying that it essentially lowered any inhibition you might have had. I'll just have to agree to disagree there.

 

I could go on and on about how I think the world should be after a divorce....

I am quite familiar with the emotional complexities of life after a divorce. For the last 2 years, my ex's OM has been living with her, and for the 1/2 time my kids are with her, he is essentially a parental figure. He is respectful of the fact the ex and I are the parents, and he's a stable guy, who is not at all a bad influence on them, and - hard as it has been to admit - maybe even contributes positively to their lives. We actually have a disgustingly cordial relationship. Believe me, I have done a lot of work to get to this point.

 

Perhaps part of that was the benefit I got from considering the effects of my actions on others (my attitude and behavior toward OM after our split) and prioritizing the well-being of others (my kids and their mother) before my own basic emotional hunger (anger, grief, revenge) which actually turned out to result in the best outcome for everyone in the end.

 

But maybe I should have just followed my own emotional needs and let them all "own" their own feelings and reactions that resulted... Maybe they would have turned out stronger for it.

 

...but the fact is some OPs really do care about what happens to the BSs.

I'm trying not to be sarcastic here, and I really do accept the possibility of what you are saying, but I believe you are likely an exception. I think it's a lot easier to care about what happens to the BS after you've got what you want. If my ex's OM genuinely "cared" about me (or, say, the kids) from the start, somehow I think an honorable guy would not have pursued my wife. It's easy, and a little too obvious and convenient, for him to be "caring" toward all of us now.

 

╠═════════════════════════════════════════════════╣

 

And in case you're wondering if this is all still on-topic or just a "me, me, me" threadjack, I've intentionally woven it as a bit of a fable, for to paraphrase a comment above: In spite of the "I'm not responsible for you, and besides, you'll be stronger by going through hell" argument, sometimes, the benefit realized from considering the effects of one's actions on others, and prioritizing the well-being of others over one's own basic emotional hunger, actually turns out to result in the healthiest outcome for everyone in the end.

[pelicanpreacher]

Well, I won't understand, then, how you and I ended up with such polar attitudes, as my experience - while making me unquestionably stronger - also strengthened my inhibition against visiting a situation like this upon someone else, while you seem to be saying that it essentially lowered any inhibition you might have had. I'll just have to agree to disagree there.

 

 

I am quite familiar with the emotional complexities of life after a divorce. For the last 2 years, my ex's OM has been living with her, and for the 1/2 time my kids are with her, he is essentially a parental figure. He is respectful of the fact the ex and I are the parents, and he's a stable guy, who is not at all a bad influence on them, and - hard as it has been to admit - maybe even contributes positively to their lives. We actually have a disgustingly cordial relationship. Believe me, I have done a lot of work to get to this point.

 

Perhaps part of that was the benefit I got from considering the effects of my actions on others (my attitude and behavior toward OM after our split) and prioritizing the well-being of others (my kids and their mother) before my own basic emotional hunger (anger, grief, revenge) which actually turned out to result in the best outcome for everyone in the end.

 

But maybe I should have just followed my own emotional needs and let them all "own" their own feelings and reactions that resulted... Maybe they would have turned out stronger for it.

 

 

I'm trying not to be sarcastic here, and I really do accept the possibility of what you are saying, but I believe you are likely an exception. I think it's a lot easier to care about what happens to the BS after you've got what you want. If my ex's OM genuinely "cared" about me (or, say, the kids) from the start, somehow I think an honorable guy would not have pursued my wife. It's easy, and a little too obvious and convenient, for him to be "caring" toward all of us now.

 

╠═════════════════════════════════════════════════╣

 

And in case you're wondering if this is all still on-topic or just a "me, me, me" threadjack, I've intentionally woven it as a bit of a fable, for to paraphrase a comment above: In spite of the "I'm not responsible for you, and besides, you'll be stronger by going through hell" argument, sometimes, the benefit realized from considering the effects of one's actions on others, and prioritizing the well-being of others over one's own basic emotional hunger, actually turns out to result in the healthiest outcome for everyone in the end.

 

This is an excellent post. I'd further add that some people only swell with pain after being stung by a bee while others go into dire anaphylactic shock and require immediate medical care. To say that I got through it somehow so anyone else impacted by my "stinger" will get through it too doesn't take into account the entire range of possible outcomes to the decisions we make. Also, though one might come out on the other side an emotionally stronger person, it is equally possible to come out emotionally weaker. After the trauma of this experience has settled all BS's are faced with a fork in their path and must make the concious decision whether to take the "high road" or the "low road". I believe the choice some make is ultimately based on the strength of their resulting emotional state of being as it impacts on character and values which is how someone betrayed can become the betrayer!

 

I'd also also agree that its easier for the victor to be magnanimous after they've won their conquest but it isn't motivated by a sense of altruism. It is merely a campaign to win "hearts and minds" to complete the transition of the usurped lives they want incorporated into their dominion. If all that came with their conquest was the WS then, in all likelihood, the BS would never see this side of them.

[torranceshipman]

LSD, how often do you and this woman actually have contact?

[GreenEyedLady]

What about free will here?

 

LSD's interest is the one who chooses to stp outside the M, is she not?

 

Isn't that on her?

[Trimmer]

What about free will here?

 

LSD's interest is the one who chooses to stp outside the M, is she not?

 

Isn't that on her?

Absolutely - it's a well-worn argument on here as to whether the OP "is responsible" for anything, since it's the MP who has the commitment to the marriage, and is in the decision-making position relative to that marriage. I won't deny that, and I don't assert that LSD is responsible for what his MW chooses to do.

 

On the other hand, in our society, we generally assign some level of individual responsibility to both parties willlingly involved in a dubious endeavor together. The drug dealer doesn't get off because the user could have "just said no," the gun runner isn't free of responsibility because the combatants could have worked out their differences and chosen not to fight. Just because there exists an illicit demand does not immunize the supplier from responsibility for choosing to meet it. It doesn't mean that the supplier (the OP) is responsible for what the buyer (the MW) has chosen to do, but we do consider the supplier to be responsible for choosing to involve himself in the dubious endeavor - personal responsibility for his choices.

 

And even at that, I'm not looking to convict LSD of some kind of objective offense. For me it's about: who do you see when you look in the mirror in the morning? I'm intrigued that after "living through it" from the other side, some people have their inhibitions against getting involved in an affair strengthened as a result, yet others find their inhibitions lowered.

[LakesideDream]

Absolutely - it's a well-worn argument on here as to whether the OP "is responsible" for anything, since it's the MP who has the commitment to the marriage, and is in the decision-making position relative to that marriage. I won't deny that, and I don't assert that LSD is responsible for what his MW chooses to do.

 

On the other hand, in our society, we generally assign some level of individual responsibility to both parties willlingly involved in a dubious endeavor together. The drug dealer doesn't get off because the user could have "just said no," the gun runner isn't free of responsibility because the combatants could have worked out their differences and chosen not to fight. Just because there exists an illicit demand does not immunize the supplier from responsibility for choosing to meet it. It doesn't mean that the supplier (the OP) is responsible for what the buyer (the MW) has chosen to do, but we do consider the supplier to be responsible for choosing to involve himself in the dubious endeavor - personal responsibility for his choices.

 

And even at that, I'm not looking to convict LSD of some kind of objective offense. For me it's about: who do you see when you look in the mirror in the morning? I'm intrigued that after "living through it" from the other side, some people have their inhibitions against getting involved in an affair strengthened as a result, yet others find their inhibitions lowered.

 

 

What do I see in the mirror each morning? That's a difficult question to answer on a public forum, but I will.

 

I see an almost old man. Certainly not the man I am inside my head, in my dreams at night, in my imagination when I am musing.

 

What do I think and feel is probably the question you were actually asking. Often I feel tired. Years ago I felt sad, for the last few years just empty. For the last few months I have felt "excited, invogorated". with the possibilities in front of me, still tired though.

 

I understand that I am at a crossroads in my life. It's not an easy one either. Not whining, or making excuses I knowingly make my own decisions. Soon, I hope to know which direction I'll be taking for the rest of my life.

 

Like almost everything in life, there will be winners and losers, the happy and sad. I am resigned to that. I want to be happy, but don't expect it. I don't want to make others unhappy, I understand that it's possible for it to happen. The only way to aviod the possiblity of unhappiness of others or myself is to do nothing, sacrifice my hopes and dreams.

 

I've literally done that my whole life. Not this time. I'd rather win or lose than avoid the coming "contest" completely. Selfish, I suppose.

[Trimmer]

Well, the one thing I know for sure is that I'm not in your shoes, so I won't presume to judge.

 

Good luck for a happy, healthy, safe outcome, whatever it turns out to be.

[pelicanpreacher]

Exactly my point Trimmer for free will ain't free. We are all influenced by our own emotions, experiences, and others around us. We face our decisions with the knowledge that there are consequences for our actions and thus, a price to pay for all we do. Attempting to absolve oneself with platitudes such as "I didn't force them to do it" or "I didn't seek them..they sought me" or "I'm not responsible if they betray another with my help because they can make up their own mind" forgets the fact that one must choose to be an accomplice in aiding and abetting what is know to be illicit.

 

I've read LSD's post and reflect on the history of his experiences starting with his service in the military during that terrible war in Vietnam as a young man. He saw, fought, and was compelled to act in the best interests of his platoon and probably saw men die or had to take lives himself in his fight for survival and the survival of the men that served with him. No easy task or experience to endure for many vets of that era sucumbed to the mental stress of the horrors they faced by ruining their lives with drugs and alcohol to relieve the nightmare they lived so long ago.

 

LSD not only showed enough mental, spiritual, and emotional strength of character to avoid that trap but went on to marry, build a successful career, and raise children to adulthood who now stand on their own two feet to meet the challenges of today's world while still enduring the ups and downs we all face in our day to day grind attempting to accomplish something important and worthwhile in our lives. Again, no easy task even for those who never faced the challenges LSD did from the opening gate.

 

I read those posts and said "This is a man that had the guts to stay the course and live his life right within the black and white with probably little room for grey. His golden years should have been blessed and rewarded by growing old in peace and happiness with the woman he loved, married, and stood by for the last 25 year of his life. Instead he came to find out that his wife had been having an affair with her "high school" sweetheart for almost his entire marriage and soon after this revelation she snatched half of everything he built in their lives and happily flounced out the door to live with her OM parting on the stinging admonition that she never really loved him to begin with.

 

Now, let's be real here folks. A lesser individual might be doing time right now because if you play with someone's emotions in this manner you're playing with a fire almost guaranteed to burn you to a cinder. This level pain of betrayal goes far far far beyond a broken heart. It crushes and obliterates the soul while making one question the merits of the entire value system one once held sacred. Again though, LSD sucked it up and gritted his teeth through the pain and moved on with his life, shattered, miserable, and disenchanted as he was. Although, he managed to survive this devestating ordeal he didn't come through the other side the same man as he was before he went in for time had allowed the full impact of this tragedy to seep so deeply into his scarred and battered soul he lost his sense of empathy. He's neither ranting or raving now nor is he particularly embittered but he's now a colder, hardened, and more calloused individual whose questions to GOD have yet to be answered...Why and why me! Until GOD answers his questions and restores his soul's spirit to the full vigor of its original pristine state he will remain on the path he has chosen to help his AF in the betrayal of her own husband!

 

I hope and pray GOD speaks and acts quickly for everyone's sake.

[OpenBook]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe there's a reason why God has not "answered his questions and restored his soul" to your satisfaction? Everything happens for a reason. It is staggeringly presumptuous for any human being to claim they know how God should handle this matter... not to mention ordering Him around like some kind of butler.

[pelicanpreacher]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe there's a reason why God has not "answered his questions and restored his soul" to your satisfaction? Everything happens for a reason. It is staggeringly presumptuous for any human being to claim they know how God should handle this matter... not to mention ordering Him around like some kind of butler.

 

I never said anything about my satisfaction and for the record, I talk to GOD all the time. No, I don't hear voices, but I still ask for his help and guidance every day. There is nothing presumptuous in wanting to know GOD or asking for his help for I wouldn't be the man I am today without him. Where in my post did you see me ordering GOD or anyone else around? You must be an OW because you're fast to twist words to fit your own evil.

[OpenBook]

You must be an OW because you're fast to twist words to fit your own evil.

 

No, just presenting an alternative viewpoint for Lakeside. But you are, of course, free to presume anything you want about me.

[pelicanpreacher]

No, just presenting an alternative viewpoint for Lakeside. But you are, of course, free to presume anything you want about me.

 

OW or not you still twist words to fit your own evil!

[pelicanpreacher]

LSD,

 

I didn't get a chance to see your latest post before I posted and now see what your real situation's been. I got distracted by the infuriatingly obscene response to me posted by Open Book and got momentarily distracted.

 

Though I don't dismiss the impact of the trauma of your past divorce (ancient as it is) the irresitible force dominating the impetus for your actions is loneliness. Seeing your situation in this new light it is far more understandable that with 25 years of marriage it must be exceedingly difficult to lose the day to day intimacy you were once accustomed to. I don't know how I missed it but, wandering around in the wilderness for 8 years is bound to make any man "stir crazy". For me it was difficult to sleep without the presence of my woman next to me after she left and I only had 6 years with her. The question that glaringly begs though is why you aren't knee deep in the dating scene because from your posts I discern that you are bright, fit, and able and I can't figure out why you haven't thoroughly explored this option. Now, before you jump up and down about the old man you see in the mirror, I need to point out that you're OW isn't a spring chicken either yet, you've still been able to enthrall her, right? Don't use the excuse that you've had history with her because if that was so important you would have left your marriage for her long before your divorce. Unless she has a "gold plated you-know-what", then she isn't so special or unique that you should ignore all other women in deference to her.

 

The point I'm making is that if your self esteem is somewhat attached to how you perceive your appearance then educate yourself on healthy dieting and begin a gym regiment for you, of all people, have the ingrained discipline to make a change if you want to for, before you know it, you'll look 20 years your junior and your appearance will become a nonissue. If you get back into the dating jungle though lead with your mind instead of your heart to separate the wheat from the chaff to find the woman who's right for you that is ready, willing, and waiting for a romance just as long coming. TC did it and found someone interesting so there isn't one reason in the world you can come up with not to at least try!

 

Get your "earbuds" on for here are two dittys for you to contemplate.

 

This is for the low and easy road...

This is for the high and hard...

 

Thank you!

[White Flower]

Don't use the excuse that you've had history with her because if that was so important you would have left your marriage for her long before your divorce. Unless she has a "gold plated you-know-what", then she isn't so special or unique that you should ignore all other women in deference to her.

 

Let's be careful not to presume others would do what you would do, or what you think the average OP would do.

 

My guess is he did have a deep caring (maybe even loving or longing) for her during his M, but did what you say you would do which was 'the right thing' by his wife. Once his M was over and the commitment removed he was free to look up MW. Or maybe she looked him up?

[Terminator]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe there's a reason why God has not "answered his questions and restored his soul" to your satisfaction? Everything happens for a reason. It is staggeringly presumptuous for any human being to claim they know how God should handle this matter... not to mention ordering Him around like some kind of butler.

 

Presumptuous also to assume that every human has a belief in "god" and should be held accountable to whatever code of beliefs the poster does.

 

You must be an OW because you're fast to twist words to fit your own evil

 

I also found it very interesting that the poster holds out the belief that OW are evil in some way rather than perhaps misguided. I don't find anything supportive in that statement frankly.