KittenMoon Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 In honor of my mortal enemy, Valentine's Day, I was hoping to get some discussion going on a topic I've been pondering lately. During the Superbowl, I was watching with some friends, and a commercial where a guy is making a cake for his SO (with disasterous results). My single guyfriend quipped the following: "You girls make us work too hard..." I resisted the urge to snap "And THAT'S why you're single", but it got me thinking. When in a relationship, I always thought it was automatic that one would want to do things to make the other happy, in instances when they KNEW their SO would be dissapointed if they didn't (VDay, bdays, xmas, etc). And yet- so often I've seen (and been on the receiving end) of a "what's the least I can do" situation from an SO, resulting in half-@$$ed, empty gestures that were better off not occuring at all. It's especially infuriating when I observe someone putting in OODLES of effort into something else (car, video game, work, etc) but not into what is supposedly the person they love. But of course I've seen those folks who always take an extra step to do something REALLY heartfelt, even if it's only a tiny, simple, inexpensive, etc thing. Something where the thought REALLY counts, because thought WAS put into it. So, discuss: Does, or should, Love come with that desire to make another happy? Taking that extra step to think of things that will delight them, if the situation calls for it? Can a relationship survive where one person makes gestures and wants them in return, and the other doesnt? Link to post Share on other sites
Florida Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Can a relationship survive where one person makes gestures and wants them in return, and the other doesnt? Probably not. Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 This is a female form of expression, to fine-tune a gift and read someone's mind as a way of showing love. Men can learn to do it and for some men it comes naturally, but for the majority the way they show love is just different. It is more through doing and it is more off-the-cuff. We want them to think like us sometimes, but if they really did so it would make them less attractive in the long run b/c this is part of what makes them men. Link to post Share on other sites
Author KittenMoon Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 This is a female form of expression, to fine-tune a gift and read someone's mind as a way of showing love. Men can learn to do it and for some men it comes naturally, but for the majority the way they show love is just different. It is more through doing and it is more off-the-cuff. We want them to think like us sometimes, but if they really did so it would make them less attractive in the long run b/c this is part of what makes them men. So what do you think are the alternate male expressions of love? Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 So what do you think are the alternate male expressions of love? Well, of course it differs from guy to guy, but some that I've experienced: -Earning money and paying for stuff as needed -Rearranging his schedule to spend free time together -Fixing things, checking oil, making sure fluids are in car, killing bugs, checking on strange noises in the middle of the night -Eating and enjoying the food you cook -Getting really turned on when you're doing the dishes in your bathrobe with bedhead and no makeup -Sex -Sex -Oral sex -Kissing -Sex Link to post Share on other sites
Author KittenMoon Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 -Rearranging his schedule to spend free time together I think this one is a big indicator. A guy who willingly makes time (like he would for his video game or car or whatever) is man in love. I like your list Story- I hope the guys will pay attention to it too! Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I like your list Story- I hope the guys will pay attention to it too! Maybe an actual guy poster would like to approve it and/or add to it. Link to post Share on other sites
mental_traveller Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) I think the reason for this is that things like Valentine's Day, Xmas, birthdays etc this kind of thing is *expected*. Therefore it's not a sign of love or devotion at all, it's a mere obligation, something you have to do if you want to avoid getting nagged or shouted at. Think for a minute about how pathetic that is. Do you really want your guy to do something for you because he feels obligated? I find it incredible that people would want to be treated nice for negative reasons. Because then it's not a sign of love at all, it's a sign of fear, or hassle-avoidance. Wouldn't it be better to just forget about these occasions, and instead have your bf or husband do something nice for you because he genuinely wants to, he really feels that way? Rather than because he thinks "oh, that time of year again. Better pop down the shops and get something to keep her happy." Also you were way off base with the guy. Not all women are lazy demanding sheep who judge a guy by his ability to present gifts on the obligatory anniverary days made up by card manufacturing corporations to increase sales. Some actual value a guy based on being able to think for himself and do & say nice things at the time of his choosing, because he actually feels it and means it, not do it at the right dates like a robot just because society expects him to. Seriously, why value gestures over real action? Edited February 13, 2008 by mental_traveller Link to post Share on other sites
mental_traveller Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Maybe an actual guy poster would like to approve it and/or add to it. Your list should be compulsory reading for all women aged 18+ Link to post Share on other sites
Author KittenMoon Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 I think the reason for this is that things like Valentine's Day, Xmas, birthdays etc this kind of thing is *expected*. Therefore it's not a sign of love or devotion at all, it's a mere obligation, something you have to do if you want to avoid getting nagged or shouted at. And what if they aren't nagged about it? How many people simply accept that lack of effort silently, with quiet disappointment? (I know I have) And why is a simple show of devotion so hard when it comes to someone you love? IMO, it should feel like an opportunity, not an obligation. And quite frankly, it shouldn't be limited to "special" days. I have a friend who's bf does sweet things at any old random point, so that when the special days roll around, effort (or lack thereof) isn't that big of a deal. And why should someone automatially give up their desire to be shown love through gestures? Why shouldn't the other person decide to work on themselves in order to make their SO happy? Just some ideas to ponder. Link to post Share on other sites
tanbark813 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Maybe an actual guy poster would like to approve it and/or add to it. I agree with the list. I think the reason for this is that things like Valentine's Day, Xmas, birthdays etc this kind of thing is *expected*. Therefore it's not a sign of love or devotion at all, it's a mere obligation, something you have to do if you want to avoid getting nagged or shouted at. Think for a minute about how pathetic that is. Do you really want your guy to do something for you because he feels obligated? I find it incredible that people would want to be treated nice for negative reasons. Because then it's not a sign of love at all, it's a sign of fear, or hassle-avoidance. Wouldn't it be better to just forget about these occasions, and instead have your bf or husband do something nice for you because he genuinely wants to, he really feels that way? Rather than because he thinks "oh, that time of year again. Better pop down the shops and get something to keep her happy." Also you were way off base with the guy. Not all women are lazy demanding sheep who judge a guy by his ability to present gifts on the obligatory anniverary days made up by card manufacturing corporations to increase sales. Some actual value a guy based on being able to think for himself and do & say nice things at the time of his choosing, because he actually feels it and means it, not do it at the right dates like a robot just because society expects him to. Seriously, why value gestures over real action? I see your point but I don't think a gift given on some random day is any more meaningful than on a birthday or Christmas. Although I do think that little gestures here and there can have a big impact. I think the expected gift-giving on occasions is similar to common courtesy and ceremony. For example, a wedding ceremony itself doesn't mean shyt when you get right down to it but it's traditional and symbolic. You're not required to open doors for people or say "bless you" after someone sneezes but it's polite. And based on the gift someone gives you on Valentine's Day or a birthday or whatever, you can tell if they're doing it out of obligation or actually put some thought into it. Those two are very different things. Link to post Share on other sites
Author KittenMoon Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 Maybe an actual guy poster would like to approve it and/or add to it. I'd be interested to hear from guys who are adverse to the "efforts". Do they do things (like from the list) to 'make up' for it? I think maybe some people need to realize that actions do speak louder than words, and saying "I love you" sometimes pales in comparison to arranging a picnic on the beach, or special ordering her favorite wine and chocolates, etc etc. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I think the reason for this is that things like Valentine's Day, Xmas, birthdays etc this kind of thing is *expected*. Therefore it's not a sign of love or devotion at all, it's a mere obligation, something you have to do if you want to avoid getting nagged or shouted at. That's not true. I'd honor Valentine's day if I were with a guy I loved. I'd fill the whole entire house with hearts, cards, petals, candles, roses, balloons, special dinner, and what not. It'd be a good excuse to do something special, to go all the way! The same as xmas. If you see it as an obligation then you just don't love that person. Link to post Share on other sites
Phateless Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 In honor of my mortal enemy, Valentine's Day, I was hoping to get some discussion going on a topic I've been pondering lately. During the Superbowl, I was watching with some friends, and a commercial where a guy is making a cake for his SO (with disasterous results). My single guyfriend quipped the following: "You girls make us work too hard..." I resisted the urge to snap "And THAT'S why you're single", but it got me thinking. When in a relationship, I always thought it was automatic that one would want to do things to make the other happy, in instances when they KNEW their SO would be dissapointed if they didn't (VDay, bdays, xmas, etc). And yet- so often I've seen (and been on the receiving end) of a "what's the least I can do" situation from an SO, resulting in half-@$$ed, empty gestures that were better off not occuring at all. It's especially infuriating when I observe someone putting in OODLES of effort into something else (car, video game, work, etc) but not into what is supposedly the person they love. But of course I've seen those folks who always take an extra step to do something REALLY heartfelt, even if it's only a tiny, simple, inexpensive, etc thing. Something where the thought REALLY counts, because thought WAS put into it. So, discuss: Does, or should, Love come with that desire to make another happy? Taking that extra step to think of things that will delight them, if the situation calls for it? Can a relationship survive where one person makes gestures and wants them in return, and the other doesnt? This issue goes in both directions, and I think what you're talking about sounds dangerously close to unreasonable expectations, if that makes sense. My ex always used to yell at me because I never made her breakfast in bed, or cooked dinner for her (after i got home from a 10-hour shift on the sales floor, on my feet all day), etc. I did, however, maintain her car, change her oil, clean up dishes after her, completely rearrange my schedule for her convenience, drive her around for errands, etc, yet I "never did anything for her." That's what that guy probably meant. You should be pleasantly surprised when we want to do nice things for you as we usually do, but you can't be mad at us for not doing something above and beyond you didn't tell us you want us to do. Link to post Share on other sites
Author KittenMoon Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 And based on the gift someone gives you on Valentine's Day or a birthday or whatever, you can tell if they're doing it out of obligation or actually put some thought into it. Those two are very different things. Oh totally. I'm just hoping people will consider a neutral ground between her "It hurts that he never shows he cares" and his "It just feels like a damn obligation". Too often I think one side or the other suffers because the other refuses to give ground at all. I would hope maybe someone reading this would maybe think "Hey, I'll cut him a break this Vday" or "Hm, maybe I'll pick up her fav dessert from that bakery as a surprise tomorrow". Hint hint, all. Link to post Share on other sites
Author KittenMoon Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 This issue goes in both directions, and I think what you're talking about sounds dangerously close to unreasonable expectations, if that makes sense. My ex always used to yell at me because I never made her breakfast in bed, or cooked dinner for her (after i got home from a 10-hour shift on the sales floor, on my feet all day), etc. I did, however, maintain her car, change her oil, clean up dishes after her, completely rearrange my schedule for her convenience, drive her around for errands, etc, yet I "never did anything for her." That's what that guy probably meant. You should be pleasantly surprised when we want to do nice things for you as we usually do, but you can't be mad at us for not doing something above and beyond you didn't tell us you want us to do. Ok, I didn't mean for folks to focus so much on my example. I think we all have our negative experiences here- I definitely get grumpy on the "female" end because my ex always used to do as little as humanly possible, and after years of "passes", it was utterly heartbreaking. And I can see how you'd get annoyed on the "male" end because your ex was demanding. I hope we can all just get some perspective on both sides. Link to post Share on other sites
norajane Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I never understand why guys are so averse to VDay. I think it's a great opportunity in the middle of @%&*! winter to show appreciation for the person who gives you great bj's all year round. It doesn't have to be a big show of dinner/dancing/flowers/canday - it can be any little thing that is special to the couple. My ex fiancee's parents who had been married for a zillion years always put those little VDay cards on the fridge for each other, you know, the ones you passed out as a kid to your friends. It was a little tradition for them, and nice to find a little "Be Mine, Love Sharon". It meant something to them and cost virtually nothing. I have been known to write personalized porn stories for my loves on VD...and to send him snippets of it during the day, with the promise to act it out when we met that evening. If you view it as fun, it can bring you closer together. If you view it as an obligation and chore, it calls into question why it's soooooo hard to do something nice for your lover. Link to post Share on other sites
Phateless Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Totally agree, KittenMoon (btw did you ever listen to that song?). I'm a little bitter about this whole subject because of how I was treated, so I'm digging my heels in at the moment. The next girl is really going to have to earn it, lemme tell you... Link to post Share on other sites
Author KittenMoon Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 Totally agree, KittenMoon (btw did you ever listen to that song?). I'm a little bitter about this whole subject because of how I was treated, so I'm digging my heels in at the moment. The next girl is really going to have to earn it, lemme tell you... I think its nice to see we're both examples of both sides. There's some hope, huh? Link to post Share on other sites
Author KittenMoon Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 If you view it as fun, it can bring you closer together. If you view it as an obligation and chore, it calls into question why it's soooooo hard to do something nice for your lover. This is putting it perfectly! Link to post Share on other sites
Star Gazer Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 And based on the gift someone gives you on Valentine's Day or a birthday or whatever, you can tell if they're doing it out of obligation or actually put some thought into it. Those two are very different things. So true! Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Think for a minute about how pathetic that is. Do you really want your guy to do something for you because he feels obligated? I find it incredible that people would want to be treated nice for negative reasons. I agree with a balance between this and what tan said, that honoring events is part of being courtious. And based on the gift someone gives you on Valentine's Day or a birthday or whatever, you can tell if they're doing it out of obligation or actually put some thought into it. Those two are very different things. Right, but I'm guessing Mental Travaller's thought pattern goes something like, "Well, it is Vday, and I should do something nice, but I really would rather do it when I feel inspired, not b/c it is expected. I don't feel a natural outpouring of love right now so much as a nagging voice inside me telling me it is the right thing to do. How sincere is that? I'm not going to go through the motions. I'd rather wait until it is sincere." I'd be interested to hear from guys who are adverse to the "efforts". Do they do things (like from the list) to 'make up' for it? I really don't think so. They do the things on the list b/c it is natural guy stuff. That's not true. I'd honor Valentine's day if I were with a guy I loved. I'd fill the whole entire house with hearts, cards, petals, candles, roses, balloons, special dinner, and what not. It'd be a good excuse to do something special, to go all the way! The same as xmas. If you see it as an obligation then you just don't love that person. No, no, no! That is all girlie stuff. It would mean that for Ariadne, not for Hypothetical Guy. He could make the leap to do all that stuff, but not doing it doesn't mean he doesn't love her. Link to post Share on other sites
tanbark813 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Right, but I'm guessing Mental Travaller's thought pattern goes something like, "Well, it is Vday, and I should do something nice, but I really would rather do it when I feel inspired, not b/c it is expected. I don't feel a natural outpouring of love right now so much as a nagging voice inside me telling me it is the right thing to do. How sincere is that? I'm not going to go through the motions. I'd rather wait until it is sincere." Sure, but in that case why not do it during V Day and at other times? How into someone can you really be if you have to wait to feel something for them? Link to post Share on other sites
Storyrider Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Sure, but in that case why not do it during V Day and at other times? How into someone can you really be if you have to wait to feel something for them? It is kind of like when you're a kid and you are just about to make your bed without being asked, and then your mom says, "Dag nabbit, tanbark, make your bed right now, young man!" And then you really don't want to do it anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
Pyro Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 So, discuss: Does, or should, Love come with that desire to make another happy? Taking that extra step to think of things that will delight them, if the situation calls for it? Can a relationship survive where one person makes gestures and wants them in return, and the other doesnt? -Love should and does come with the desire to make another happy. -The extra step varies per relationship. Some couples like to keep things simple and some thrive on going the extra mile. -That last question is a good question. I would guess that it depends on the chemistry between the two. IMO, a relationship should not have to be work at all. It should all come naturally. Link to post Share on other sites
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