Why Don't They?

[rocks08]

You are welcome. Feel free to PM me any time (like, when you feel like contacting xMM)! You have come so far, I am very proud of you. I was in your shoes at one time. ~Nadia

Thanks, Nadia. Those words of encouragement help a ton. For some reason, I'm not able to PM (no rights, maybe? )....

So here's a small update: I'm crawling, sometimes stumbling, very often holding on to all the support I can get, especially since we work in the same office. I'm finding it awfully hard to stop looking in his direction, hoping, praying he somehow won't see me, and am trying real hard to avoid him completely... At the same time, trying not to psyche myself right now, coz I know that's dangerous territory -- there's a chance of the behavior coming back with greater frequency!!

All in all, it's a crazy tightrope....

[Gwyneth]

I believe there's a guilty conscience in all of us--even murderers have guilt. It's the act of admitting it that some are not able to do because they cannot justify that they did wrong. Those are the selfish individuals.

[Owl]

I disagree, Gwen. There are people in this world who truly don't feel anything at all when they hurt others. They're not common, but they do exist. They're like Terminators from the movies...they feel absolutely nothing at all...no remorse/regret/guilt...they're so self-centered that they're completely incapable of empathy...of reaching outside themselves and understanding the pain they're causing.

 

I honestly don't think that most people in affairs fall into this category. I think that most cheaters either cheat and IGNORE the pain that they cause, or they cheat and deal with the pain they cause. They know its there, and they regret it in someway, but they mentally play games to justify/rationalize/permit themselves to look past it.

[rocks08]

They know its there, and they regret it in someway, but they mentally play games to justify/rationalize/permit themselves to look past it.

Owl, would you say this applies in equal measure to people whose game's up? i'd think my xMM doesn't admit he's cheating coz his wife doesn't know.... He might begin to hurt bad if that happens.... Sometimes, the truth can break all shields...

[Gwyneth]

I disagree, Gwen. There are people in this world who truly don't feel anything at all when they hurt others. They're not common, but they do exist. They're like Terminators from the movies...they feel absolutely nothing at all...no remorse/regret/guilt...they're so self-centered that they're completely incapable of empathy...of reaching outside themselves and understanding the pain they're causing.

 

I honestly don't think that most people in affairs fall into this category. I think that most cheaters either cheat and IGNORE the pain that they cause, or they cheat and deal with the pain they cause. They know its there, and they regret it in someway, but they mentally play games to justify/rationalize/permit themselves to look past it.

 

You are totally contradicting yourself, Owl. First you say:

 

There are people in this world who truly don't feel anything at all when they hurt others.

 

Then you say:

 

I think that most cheaters either cheat and IGNORE the pain that they cause, or they cheat and deal with the pain they cause. They know its there, and they regret it in someway, but they mentally play games to justify/rationalize/permit themselves to look past it.

 

Which is Exactly what I was saying, that somewhere in their heart and mind, they have guilt, but they either ignore it or deal with it. If you are ignoring the pain and guilt, then you are somehow admitting these two exist within the situation. Even those who are in denial know in some way that there is truth behind the situation.

[nadiaj2727]

Thanks, Nadia. Those words of encouragement help a ton. For some reason, I'm not able to PM (no rights, maybe? )....

So here's a small update: I'm crawling, sometimes stumbling, very often holding on to all the support I can get, especially since we work in the same office. I'm finding it awfully hard to stop looking in his direction, hoping, praying he somehow won't see me, and am trying real hard to avoid him completely... At the same time, trying not to psyche myself right now, coz I know that's dangerous territory -- there's a chance of the behavior coming back with greater frequency!!

All in all, it's a crazy tightrope....

 

Thanks for the update. I think you will be able to PM when you have posted enough posts, but I'm not sure of the exact number.

 

I understand where you're at right now. It's like you want to either kick him out of your life and never ever see him again, or you want him to come begging you to be with him and for him to do everything necessary for it to be just you and him.

 

For me, something just snapped. I was dreaming away of a "real" future with MM, where it could be just me and him. I wasn't satisfied with the reality of my own life because it wasn't just me and him yet... I lived for the times I could be with him, and spent the rest of the time dreaming about the future.

 

I suddenly realized that this future he said we could have was not guaranteed. In fact, no future at all is guaranteed (I'm not trying to get all philosophical here LOL). All that I was was there here and now, and every moment, every day. In my "here and now", it was not just me and him. It was a series of ups and downs, of passion and depression, of wishing and wanting. I began to think, I have no idea how long this will go on. Of course, he makes it sound like very soon he will be divorced. But is this really true? I don't know. All I know is my reality: he is still married, and I don't want to be with a married man. I never wanted to be with a married man, yet there I was, there with a married man, all because I was waiting for the point when he was no longer married.

 

I decided to live every moment for ME and do what I thought was right and pursue what I wanted. One option was to pursue his divorce for him head on. He was wishy-washy and he wanted a guarantee that I would still be there for him when he was divorced. So I could have pushed him and held his hand trhough it like he was my child and I was taking him to Divorce School. I think it would have "worked" that way, but that's not what I really wanted. I wanted a grown man, who had decided his marriage was not for him, that *I* was for him, and who was doing, ON HIS OWN (although of course he would have my support) what was necessary to be with me the right way.

 

So that left my only other option: Forget about him, until he really was divorced. That was the only way to live in the here and now, in my reality. It was hard at first, I had those same feelings as you, one day wanting him and one day hating him. And it was really really hard to not talk to him, I was sad and felt like I had lost my lover and my best friend, and in a way, I had. But I had to remind myself that my lover and best friend was married, and that is just wrong to me. I only wanted him to be my lover and best friend and boyfriend if he was available to me in all the other ways, including not being legally bound to someone else, and not keeping me a secret, LOL. And it started to make me feel good and strong to not talk to him, and I started not even wanting him anymore. I realized I was better than that, although I hadn't realized that when I got caught up in the temporary escape of wanting to be with him.

 

I think you will get there, you are already starting to be strong, it just takes time and strong will. (hugs)

[Owl]

Not contradicting myself.

 

I'm saying that there are people out there that have no care at all about how they hurt other people. They exist...they're not common, but they exist. They are truly the kinds of people that I think are EVIL. Empathy is the one thing in this world that really does seperate US from the animals...animals don't/can't "put themselves in the other guy's shoes". People who can't do that are what I consider to be truly evil.

 

BUT...what I'm saying is that I don't feel that most cheaters fall into that category. Some do...very few. Most probably do care...but don't care enough to do something about it. They're not evil...just self-centered.

 

Make sense?

[nadiaj2727]

I've been thinking more and more each day about breaking away from my MM. He also was going through a difficult time with his career and I decided to be there for him for emotional support. I didn't want to kick him to hard while he was down, I decided to wait until he got back up and then kick the crap out of him. He keeps asking me, why are you trying to push me away. I told him, even though, we use to date and we have all these feelings for each other, I should have never put myself in this situation. But his time is about UP because I'm tired.

 

I understand this too. You realize you did something you shouldn't have, that wasn't the best situation for you. Obviously MM feels differently because it's the ideal situation for him. That's why it's so hard for them to let us go. They don't WANT us to realize we are better off without them. That's why they are so sweet and charming and codding and great in bed... to keep us hooked. At least that's my theroy anyway.

[Gwyneth]

Not contradicting myself.

 

I'm saying that there are people out there that have no care at all about how they hurt other people. They exist...they're not common, but they exist. They are truly the kinds of people that I think are EVIL. Empathy is the one thing in this world that really does seperate US from the animals...animals don't/can't "put themselves in the other guy's shoes". People who can't do that are what I consider to be truly evil.

 

BUT...what I'm saying is that I don't feel that most cheaters fall into that category. Some do...very few. Most probably do care...but don't care enough to do something about it. They're not evil...just self-centered.

 

Make sense?

 

Okay, I see your point.

[TogetherForever]

IMO, No love for the wife = no guilt.

TF

[NoIDidn't]

Personally, I think that they do feel guilt, but it won't keep the OW by their side if they admit that they feel bad about cheating on their Ws.

 

Seriously, who is going to believe that a M is dead and that a W is so bad that she is being cheated on when the guy is constantly talking about his guilt? It goes against what most OW want, which is the MM from the M. A guilty man isn't ready to leave his M and isn't a very convincing AP.

 

That's what I think.

[Owl]

IMO, No love for the wife = no guilt.

TF

 

I disagree. I might not know and love the squirrel that just ran out under my tire, but I can still feel guilty for squishing its fluffy little head.

 

You don't have to love someone to feel guilty about screwing them over.

 

You just have to have enough EMPATHY to think about how you made them feel.

[OWoman]

Personally, I think that they do feel guilt, but it won't keep the OW by their side if they admit that they feel bad about cheating on their Ws.

 

Seriously, who is going to believe that a M is dead and that a W is so bad that she is being cheated on when the guy is constantly talking about his guilt? It goes against what most OW want, which is the MM from the M. A guilty man isn't ready to leave his M and isn't a very convincing AP.

 

That's what I think.

 

It depends on the nature of the A, and what the OW wants. If what she wants is an A, then the MM saying he isn't going to leave his M is going to be reassuring and what she wants to hear. If what she wants is a full-time LTR, then clearly the opposite applies.

 

The MM that gets involved with the OW who wants nothing beyond an A is ironically less likely to feel guilt (despite having the space with the OW to express it) because there is no pressure or expectation from her side to change things. She'll affirm him and appease any pangs of conscience he has.

 

The MM that gets involved with the OW who wants a full-time LTR will be getting pressure from the OW to deliver what she wants. And, since he isn't, there'll be guilt in that direction to exacerbate the guilt he feels about his W. So, while he has no space for this guilt to be expressed with the OW, it's being compounded by OW-related guilt, and so these MMs get a double dose of guilt.

[TogetherForever]

I disagree. I might not know and love the squirrel that just ran out under my tire, but I can still feel guilty for squishing its fluffy little head.

 

You don't have to love someone to feel guilty about screwing them over.

 

You just have to have enough EMPATHY to think about how you made them feel.

 

 

There's a big difference between feeling bad & feeling guilty.

Maybe most mm just feel bad about screwing their wife over.

(I'd feel bad for running over that squirrel but I wouldn't feel guilty. Of course if I ran it over on purpose, then I'd hope I'd feel guilty.)

[Owl]

I'm not sure I know the difference between 'feeling bad' and 'feeling guilty' in the context you describe.

 

Perhaps the difference would be along the lines of "if I could take it back" or not?

 

You might feel bad...but not enough to want to have avoided doing so in the first place (feeling bad)...vs wishing it had never happened or that you could take it back (feeling guilty)?

[NoIDidn't]

It depends on the nature of the A, and what the OW wants. If what she wants is an A, then the MM saying he isn't going to leave his M is going to be reassuring and what she wants to hear. If what she wants is a full-time LTR, then clearly the opposite applies.

 

The MM that gets involved with the OW who wants nothing beyond an A is ironically less likely to feel guilt (despite having the space with the OW to express it) because there is no pressure or expectation from her side to change things. She'll affirm him and appease any pangs of conscience he has.

 

The MM that gets involved with the OW who wants a full-time LTR will be getting pressure from the OW to deliver what she wants. And, since he isn't, there'll be guilt in that direction to exacerbate the guilt he feels about his W. So, while he has no space for this guilt to be expressed with the OW, it's being compounded by OW-related guilt, and so these MMs get a double dose of guilt.

 

So, you said all that to say you agree with me......partially.

[Daphne Crane]

Those were the words he used with me too. And each time, he'd say that very plaintively, and I'd go all gooey. And yes, I got sick of the whole damn thing too.

Keep us posted here on how it goes -- you've got one immediate precedent!

 

Gooey.....OMG! I'm so COO COO FOR HIS COCOA PUFFS! He had the saddest look on his face. He said I was pushing him away because I don't love him anymore. I told him, that's not true but I have to look out for me...what's best for me. He keeps telling me, I will not lose you again. I want to ask him what does he mean but I don't know if I will like or can take the answer.

[Daphne Crane]

I understand this too. You realize you did something you shouldn't have, that wasn't the best situation for you. Obviously MM feels differently because it's the ideal situation for him. That's why it's so hard for them to let us go. They don't WANT us to realize we are better off without them. That's why they are so sweet and charming and codding and great in bed... to keep us hooked. At least that's my theroy anyway.

 

 

I ask myself every day, why did I choose this road? I think it had something to do with my past relationships and how they ended (not the ending that you think). I think he was somewhat safer. Safer in the sense that I could control my feelings and not worry about getting into deep. But what I forgot about....the feelings I had for him before.

[White Flower]

It all depends on their personality. My guy is pretty emotional. I know he feels guilt. And I know he feels guilt when he can't be there for me, too.

 

It is baffling how someone can fall out of love yet feel guilty because of the vows made so long ago. The guilt comes from that.

[rocks08]

Gooey.....OMG! I'm so COO COO FOR HIS COCOA PUFFS!

ha ha ha...lol... u bet...... His sphere of control didn't just stop, here, though. The last time I walked out, he told me I was taking a decision without even taking him into consideration, when it involved the two of us... Honestly, I don't even want to get into those trips anymore, or even try and answer that in my own mind... It just feels so goddamn wrong staying in a relationship with so much imbalance...

[rocks08]

It's like you want to either kick him out of your life and never ever see him again, or you want him to come begging you to be with him and for him to do everything necessary for it to be just you and him.

Nadia, it's not so much about wanting him to come begging me... I'm still dealing with feelings I HAVE FOR MM, which I realise won't disappear overnight: the same old care-memories-sympathy (oh look at him, he's so alone) cycle plays out in my head like a rusty old record... I still need to purge my system of those feelings, apart from the guilt at having used and then "dumped" him the way I did, at the wrong time, etc etc, which i know only months and perhaps years of therapy will help me overcome...