Betrayal or shame?

[smartgirl]

My situation didn't involve an LTR. The betrayal is agonizing, but a substantial amount of my pain, especially at first, was from feeling utterly and completely humiliated. I'm not sure if you meant you use "humiliation" or "embarassment" instead of shame, because shame would imply that the BS is at fault somehow.

 

The humiliation was the second factor I felt, right after the immediate anguish. I didn't want anyone to know, and I still feel that way now. I thanked my lucky stars I wasn't a celebrity that would have a story like this posted all over the gossip blogs and magazines. And even though you know the WS is 100% to blame, and that any person with half a brain would know this and would sympathize with you, it is still something that you just can't bear anyone to know about. I suppose because in a twisted way, the betrayal is a slam on you as a person. While there are the intelligent people out there who know better, there is also the other school of thought that immediately assumes that the betrayed did something to deserve it. 'I bet she was a real bxtch', 'She was probably cold in bed', 'She didn't appreciate him enough', etc. Even if you know it isn't true, you don't want the embarassment of knowing people are thinking that. Not when you're going through the most devastating pain of your life.

 

This is an excellent description of the humiliation factor in the betrayal equation. First, the violation of privacy you feel related to the affair itself is devastating. Knowing that the OW was listening in while H lied to you. Knowing that he discussed your private thoughts and actions. Things you yourself would not have told your best friend. And yet your H has exposed you to the scruitiny of the worst possible person in the world from your standpoint. Humiliation is the word I used many times. Having to face her at office functions is incredibly difficult. It makes me feel like I am standing there naked.

 

I've never told another person besides our MC about this affair. Being exposed to the scruitiny of others would have been too, too much.

 

And there is a difference between how men and women react as BS. "After the Affair" does a good job of describing it. Women tend to blame themselves or fear that they will be blamed. They tend to believe or fear that it was some flaw or inadequacy in them that caused their H to go elsewhere. Men do not feel that their spouse's affair had anything to do with them, though they tend to fixate on whether the OM was a better lover or had a bigger penis. Women are inclined to try and fix the marriage and men are inclined to walk away. Obviously there are exceptions, but this is the general way it goes.

Edited February 22, 2008 by smartgirl
left something out

[nadiaj2727]

Only his lies to his W were lies of omission rather than commission (simply not telling her anything until he was ready to do so, rather than telling her lies) so it wasn't quite "lying through his teeth" - and he was open with everyone else about us.

 

Okay, so you justify his lying, aka misrepesentations/ leading her own/ not giving her the full truth as "lies of omission." This is the woman he took vows with and had children with, but it's okay to do this to her as long as he doesn't outright lie to her? (And how do you know he hasn't lied to her outright?) And you still don't think he's giving you as OW any "lies of omission"?

 

I think it's good you're trying to understand what the wife might be feeling because she's had to live with him for a long time and I doubt his "lies of omission", cheating and other bad behaviors are going to clear themselves up and go away now that he met you. One day he might be painting you as an abusive and stubborn wife/ girlfriend to some sympathetic newcomer who thinks she knows and understands him so much better than you do. I am not wishing this on you, I am just saying, think about it... can he really be an honest man with you or anyone when he has been "misleading" (or whatever you want to call it) his wife for this long? Is a new relationship going to suddenly change him into a person who doesn't "mislead" the person with whom he is in a relationship?

[Frances]

Okay, so you justify his lying, aka misrepesentations/ leading her own/ not giving her the full truth as "lies of omission." This is the woman he took vows with and had children with, but it's okay to do this to her as long as he doesn't outright lie to her? (And how do you know he hasn't lied to her outright?) And you still don't think he's giving you as OW any "lies of omission"?

 

 

Lies of ommission are Lies. My h never told me about his EA. I found the emails after years and years of them communicating, so was he not lying and cheating?

 

So you are quiet right lies are lies even when they are not spoken out.

[Jess-Belle]

Hmmm....I didn't feel that way at all.

 

I KNEW that my wife's decision to start an emotional affair (and her intent to leave me and the kids) were NOT a reflection on my values.

 

I wasn't ashamed or humiliated.

 

I was HURT, beyond belief. I was hurt by her betrayal. I was shattered by the fact that she'd lied to me.

 

My self-esteem was shot because I'd thought that our love was 'special'. I would have never believed that she could have "replaced me". I had been a wonderful husband and father...I didn't see how I could have done any better. And that wasn't good enough...so like I said...self-esteem for a long time after that was non-existant.

 

But I wasn't embarassed or humiliated. SHE WAS...because she was the one who was doing something wrong by cheating on me and leaving the kids and I. I hadn't done anything to be embarassed or humiliated or shamed by.

 

I find it so admirable when people can face this situation this way. I have a friend who discovered only relatively recently that her now-husband had cheated on her in the past over and over again. She strictly believes that he did it "because he wanted to", not because it had anything to do with her.

 

I wish I could be that strong... it certainly would make all of this easier.

[nadiaj2727]

Lies of ommission are Lies. My h never told me about his EA. I found the emails after years and years of them communicating, so was he not lying and cheating?

 

So you are quiet right lies are lies even when they are not spoken out.

 

Yes Frances, he was lying and cheating. The only reason he didn't tell you is because he knew he was doing something wrong. From the time I was in pre school, breaking a promise (ie a marriage vow) is a lie, and not telling the person you promised that you broke the promise is another lie. Now as adults we want to "distinguish" what kind of a "lie" it is, when it all boils down to doing something hurtful to someone else and then deciding not to tell them about it so that you can keep doing it without admitting any wrongdoing.

 

That's why I think the "distinction" between lies of "comission" and lies of "omission" is bull****... just another self-justifying cop-out for doing something wrong. Imagine if someone killed your pet dog and didn't tell you about it. I think that would be TWO separate offenses against you: one would be killing your dog (which might have been intentional or accidental and therefore might determine how bad the first "offense" really was) and one would be not telling you about it (which would be a purposeful decision). What does it matter, then, if the lie is a sin of commission or omission? That is just technical BS. This could go for ANYTHING -- stealing from your bank account and not telling you, etc.

 

The problem with an affair is that it's like a double offense. "Betrayal" encompasses cheating AND lying, which, in a way, are the same thing, because if the spouse would stop being such a coward and tell their so-called abusive/neglectful/nagging/whatever spouses that they are with someone else because they no longer want to be with such a bad spouse (or they want to be with both, or whatever), it's not really cheating or lying -- although of course it is still a "betrayal" of the marriage if it was understood to be exclusive between two people, as most marriages are. But TELLING the spouse would stop both the cheating and lying.

 

There are so many hurtful things going on with an affair that to me it's ridiculous to categorize them into "this one he did but didn't tell her about, but he didn't outright lie to her about it, so it's not really a lie on top of the cheating" or whatever. To me, cheating = lying. If it's not wrong to do, you shouldn't have to hide it.

[Jess-Belle]

This is an excellent description of the humiliation factor in the betrayal equation. First, the violation of privacy you feel related to the affair itself is devastating. Knowing that the OW was listening in while H lied to you. Knowing that he discussed your private thoughts and actions. Things you yourself would not have told your best friend. And yet your H has exposed you to the scruitiny of the worst possible person in the world from your standpoint. Humiliation is the word I used many times. Having to face her at office functions is incredibly difficult. It makes me feel like I am standing there naked.

 

This is a good detail to bring up, even though my situation turned out a bit different. After carefully analyzing what I know, I came to the conclusion that OW did not know (or more probably had deluded herself) that my bf and I were still involved throughout their whole little fling, still having sex etc. despite our relationship being so "bad". This greatly helped me to establish some peace within myself. It was much, much worse when I initially believed that she knew all about me and that it was a standard plot to lure him away. Imagining them as a team, as co-conspirators to the lies and betrayals, filled me with so much rage, and hell yes, humiliation. It was actually a great relief to realize that he had completely played her too.

 

For whatever reason, I am not too troubled with whatever he may have said about me to her. The way I see it, she was utterly clueless about the nature of our history, our relationship and whatever went on in it. Anything he said was just attention-seeking manipulation on his part, which she further distorted in her mind to suit her needs.

 

And there is a difference between how men and women react as BS. "After the Affair" does a good job of describing it. Women tend to blame themselves or fear that they will be blamed. They tend to believe or fear that it was some flaw or inadequacy in them that caused their H to go elsewhere. Men do not feel that their spouse's affair had anything to do with them, though they tend to fixate on whether the OM was a better lover or had a bigger penis. Women are inclined to try and fix the marriage and men are inclined to walk away. Obviously there are exceptions, but this is the general way it goes.

 

This is interesting stuff. I know I have definitely blamed myself. Even though it has caused me a lot of suffering, in a bizarre way it is almost easier than feeling you had no control over this happening to you.

[nadiaj2727]

 

So you are quiet right lies are lies even when they are not spoken out.

 

I was thinking more about this, and to me the reason why lies of omission or comission are the same thing in a relationship especially is because a relationship is supposed to be based on TRUST. You are not supposed to be doing hurtful things behind each others' back. You are supposed to be able to know that your partner is being faithful, not worried about what they're NOT telling you because that's "only" a lie of omission which is better than a lie of commission or whatever.

 

This brings me back to OP's original post and I think that perhaps what the wife is experience is a shattering of her relationship as she thought it was. A marriage is not "supposed" to be about broken trust, lies (or omission or comission), and the husband carrying on a whole new relationship/ world with another woman that other people are even aware of. To me that would be even worse than a "secret" affair... I would feel like what right does he have to take our marriage that is supposed to be based on trust and commitment and turn it into a sham for the rest of the world to see, without informing ME of the change in its status? I would be a whole bunch of things, mainly angry and shocked.

[Jess-Belle]

Lies of ommission are Lies.

 

Yeah, I can't see how anyone can disagree with that. The whole "lies of omission" excuse is a sneaky tactic for sneaky people when they're scraping the bottom of the barrel for an argument. I know because I used to be that way. If you don't have to outright fabricate something, you can convince yourself that you didn't really do anything. Clearly, that's just an utterly lame way of thinking.

[Jess-Belle]

This brings me back to OP's original post and I think that perhaps what the wife is experience is a shattering of her relationship as she thought it was. A marriage is not "supposed" to be about broken trust, lies (or omission or comission), and the husband carrying on a whole new relationship/ world with another woman that other people are even aware of. To me that would be even worse than a "secret" affair... I would feel like what right does he have to take our marriage that is supposed to be based on trust and commitment and turn it into a sham for the rest of the world to see, without informing ME of the change in its status? I would be a whole bunch of things, mainly angry and shocked.

 

Tell me about it... to be honest I can't imagine anything worse than that. A long term affair with emotions involved, and to top it off, mutual friends and acquaintances know about it. That would shatter not only the trust in my partner, but my trust in humanity, thinking of all these spectators who didn't have the decency to clue me in to what was going on.

[angie2443]

This is an excellent description of the humiliation factor in the betrayal equation. First, the violation of privacy you feel related to the affair itself is devastating. Knowing that the OW was listening in while H lied to you. Knowing that he discussed your private thoughts and actions. Things you yourself would not have told your best friend. And yet your H has exposed you to the scruitiny of the worst possible person in the world from your standpoint. Humiliation is the word I used many times. Having to face her at office functions is incredibly difficult. It makes me feel like I am standing there naked."

 

Smartgirl, thankyou for writing this. This is exactly how I feel. My husband, to my knowledge, did not have a physical affair with his best friend, but had an EA with her. He told her about our sex life, our personal problems, and things about me that I would not tell my best friend or family. I found out later that certain things were exaturated or left out to make him look better. It was extremely humiliating and hurt like heck. It still fills me with pain and rage when I think about it. It felt like he stripped me naked in front of her and they both pointed and laughed. He doesn't see what he did wrong and doesn't understand why I don't "just get over it."

[silktricks]

First, my response to your question.. The betrayal was the worst. The pain of coming to the realization that the man I loved had been lying to me day in and day out for over a year was almost unbearable. The idea, however, that other people could have known and not told me would have been very painful as well - especially if it was family.

 

But, that's me. If the picture your MM painted of the wife is accurate (and it could be - or it could not be), that may not be her. Her image of herself could be more important to her than her husband. If she is as self-absorbed as pictured it is possible that she simply cannot see any scenario where she and her image in the world are not the centerpoint.

 

I will add to the string of thoughts you have received here about being careful. It sounds like your MM has lived for a long time in a situation that is unhealthy. The repercussions from that life can resound for many many years.

[smartgirl]

This is an excellent description of the humiliation factor in the betrayal equation. First, the violation of privacy you feel related to the affair itself is devastating. Knowing that the OW was listening in while H lied to you. Knowing that he discussed your private thoughts and actions. Things you yourself would not have told your best friend. And yet your H has exposed you to the scruitiny of the worst possible person in the world from your standpoint. Humiliation is the word I used many times. Having to face her at office functions is incredibly difficult. It makes me feel like I am standing there naked."

 

Smartgirl, thankyou for writing this. This is exactly how I feel. My husband, to my knowledge, did not have a physical affair with his best friend, but had an EA with her. He told her about our sex life, our personal problems, and things about me that I would not tell my best friend or family. I found out later that certain things were exaturated or left out to make him look better. It was extremely humiliating and hurt like heck. It still fills me with pain and rage when I think about it. It felt like he stripped me naked in front of her and they both pointed and laughed. He doesn't see what he did wrong and doesn't understand why I don't "just get over it."

 

My H couldn't quite get that telling her all that stuff was harmful to me. He seemed to feel that he was talking about his life and I was obviously the biggest part of that.

 

Interesting comparison between my H's PA and your H's EA. The PA was also an EA as many are. As such, she became his friend and confidant in addition to his lover. Men need friendships but would never tell another man something that made him come off sounding like a loser, even indirectly. (And I've seen enough of male "friendships" to observe that the loser label gets thrown around pretty liberally.) But when they get a chance to feel close to a woman, they feel more free to unload all their woes and problems and feel that they will get only sympathy. I don't think they even consider that they are harming their wives by talking about private matters. My H said that since you don't expect to get found out and have the details revealed, you don't even think about any potential harm to W of what you are doing. As even he has admitted, there is a lot of "not thinking" going on.

 

On a bigger picture level here, I think it is the friendship that leads a lot of men into affairs. They really don't have anyone they can open up to and sometimes people really need that. My H got involved in an EA 20 years ago in exactly that way. I told my H if he feels this need again, he need to find a therapist, not a female co-worker.

[silktricks]

I think this is fairly accurate. I also believe that the predatory-type OW depend on this and use it to their advantage.

[nadiaj2727]

I think this is fairly accurate. I also believe that the predatory-type OW depend on this and use it to their advantage.

 

Interesting. I don't think I've met a lot of predatory-type OW (then again, who would admit they were the predators? I always thought it was usually the MM who are predatory. But maybe sometimes it is just about vulnerabilities -- the MM open to friendship and an emotional connection he doesn't feel he's getting from his wife or his guy friends (along with other things he may be getting from OW, such as ego-stroking, feeling young and attractive again, having a lot of great sex, etc.), and the OW open to the attention and affection she doesn't feel she is getting from any single guy or her own partner (along with other things she may be getting from MM, such as money, gifts, flattery that someone in a "powerful" position wants her, great sex, etc.)

 

I think there are predatory serial cheater MMs and predatory serial OWs but usually I think it's not pre-meditated or predatory... both people feel like it just "happened" to them and they loved getting their needs fulfilled too much to stop and think about the consequences or the wrongness of their actions. (Yes, I am speaking from experience here and I apologize to BS as I was once an OW, I am not proud of it one bit.)

[Jess-Belle]

I think there are predatory serial cheater MMs and predatory serial OWs but usually I think it's not pre-meditated or predatory... both people feel like it just "happened" to them and they loved getting their needs fulfilled too much to stop and think about the consequences or the wrongness of their actions. (Yes, I am speaking from experience here and I apologize to BS as I was once an OW, I am not proud of it one bit.)

 

TBH I think the "just happened" way of feeling is a defense mechanism to dissuade guilt. While someone might not actually be thinking "omg I am getting into an affair and it's going to hurt people", I feel certain that most of the time, if not all of the time, they are aware from the very beginning that they are hooked by the urge to feed their ego to the point that they are willing to overlook everything else. And that, to me, is pre-meditated. (also speaking from experience here, I've filled all shoes before, which is why I simply call a spade a spade at this point)

[LucreziaBorgia]

Interesting. I don't think I've met a lot of predatory-type OW (then again, who would admit they were the predators?

 

They are out there, for sure. I used to be one, unfortunately. I was not above using the 'confidant' and 'friend' angle to get who I wanted. That is exactly what I did to this one MM - it was terrible what I did. He would complain about things in his marriage, and I would simply stoke the flames by agreeing with his POV and subtly villianizing his wife. Subtle to the point of really laying on the "you deserve happiness in your life" - stuff that was designed entirely to make it look like I was trying to look out for his best interests while reinforcing that it was his wife that was making him unhappy. If he was unhappy before, I really managed to convince him he was unhappy.

 

It sounds horrendous, and I surely have great remorse that I was ever this way - but you know what? Plenty of OW/OM do this. Why? Because they think it gets them closer to their goal. I can tell you this though, I doubt anyone would readily admit to it. There is a sliding scale of 'predatory' I guess in that some people are outright about it, and others almost subliminally so.

[OWoman]

I also believe that the predatory-type OW depend on this and use it to their advantage.

 

I was a predatory serial OW but I have never done that kind of thing. I made it clear from the outset that what I wanted from the As was sex, and if MMs wanted a confidante, they should go home to their Ws of find a therapist. Talking about their problems - marital or otherwise - was completely off the agenda, a complete deal-breaker to me. I mean come on, what's more of a passion killer than lying there all breathless and sweaty and instead of sweet nothings, he says, "you know, my wife doesn't understand me"???? :sick:

 

Really - it wasn't their EGOS I wanted to be stroking...

[smartgirl]

Personally, I think women in general have various "techniques" that are used to attract a man - single or married. The friendship angle seems to work best when the man is attached in some way.

 

My H's OW was highly manipulative (even he will grudgingly admit that it is a part of her nature) and used that angle to get closer to him. She also has a history -- current H was married with children when she zeroed in on him. He hasn't aged well though, so she was looking to trade up. She used a lot of the messaging LB describes along with a lot of material drawn from her extensive reading of romance novels.

 

Married or single, what I find amazing is how oblivious most men are to the fact that they are being guided, or manipulated, in a particular direction. It is their ego I think that wants to believe they are calling the shots.

[angie2443]

They are out there, for sure. I used to be one, unfortunately. I was not above using the 'confidant' and 'friend' angle to get who I wanted. That is exactly what I did to this one MM - it was terrible what I did. He would complain about things in his marriage, and I would simply stoke the flames by agreeing with his POV and subtly villianizing his wife. Subtle to the point of really laying on the "you deserve happiness in your life" - stuff that was designed entirely to make it look like I was trying to look out for his best interests while reinforcing that it was his wife that was making him unhappy. If he was unhappy before, I really managed to convince him he was unhappy.

 

It sounds horrendous, and I surely have great remorse that I was ever this way - but you know what? Plenty of OW/OM do this. Why? Because they think it gets them closer to their goal. I can tell you this though, I doubt anyone would readily admit to it. There is a sliding scale of 'predatory' I guess in that some people are outright about it, and others almost subliminally so.

 

 

This sounds exactly like my husband's ex best girlfriend. She was the confidant/friend to many married men or men with girlfriends. From the way I heard her talk, if these guys complained about their partners, she always sided with the men, even if she didn't know the spouses or girlfriends. She was very good at stroking egos. I feel stupid for not catching on sooner. Live and learn, I guess.

 

Part of me would love to paint my husband as this innocent, unsuspecting guy, who was just bieng a friend to her, who just didn't know any better. It hurts deeply to think that the person who you trusted as your confidant, your friend, so deeply disrespected you and had no concern for your feelings.

 

I can't. He wasn't innocent. He knew what he was doing. He understood what trust was and he understood the value of keeping things provate. He certainly didn't want me sharing private details about him to my friends. He didn't want me to have a male friend with whom I shared everything with. I respected his feelings on this matter, I wish I could say the same for him.

[Trimmer]

While in the process of divorcing #2, she meets a friends fiance'. He is a teacher working on his PhD. Cha-ching, new dollar signs.

Ha, well, whatever else you can say about her, it's clear that she's not very smart...

 

PhD ≠ automatic dollar signs...

Edited February 24, 2008 by Trimmer
changed to the cool "not equal" symbol...

[Mr. Lucky]

Talking about their problems - marital or otherwise - was completely off the agenda, a complete deal-breaker to me.

I glad you have such high standards...

 

Mr. Lucky

[nadiaj2727]

TBH I think the "just happened" way of feeling is a defense mechanism to dissuade guilt. While someone might not actually be thinking "omg I am getting into an affair and it's going to hurt people", I feel certain that most of the time, if not all of the time, they are aware from the very beginning that they are hooked by the urge to feed their ego to the point that they are willing to overlook everything else. And that, to me, is pre-meditated. (also speaking from experience here, I've filled all shoes before, which is why I simply call a spade a spade at this point)

 

I agree with you Jess-Belle. At the very beginning of my EA (later turned PA) with xMM I remember feeling twinges of "this is wrong", but I let my feelings of "I really want this", "this makes me feel good" over-power that feeling. And I justified, justified, justified things to myself. Or I would just stop thinking and continue acting. Like, if I didn't think about my actions and their consequences, they wouldn't really exist.

 

I wish so much now that I would have just stopped for a second, took a good look at myself in the mirror and said "Now Nadia, what exactly are you doing? What kind of a person do you want to be, and what kind of a person are you being?" Instead, I kept avoiding the mirror and I waited until I was so far in that when I finally faced myself, I felt ugly and weak and pathetic.

 

I think "it just happened" is a copout because even though feelings of admiration, attraction, lust, "love" feel very very powerful, they are not powerful enough to defeat feelings of right versus wrong and guilt and responsibility unless we let them become that powerful. We are not wild animals, and we shouldn't live by "uncontrollable" impulses, but sometimes people do by refusing to act with self-control, and I certainly did then. Now I always try to be mindful of what I'm doing and whether it's right or wrong, because I want to be able to smile at who I see in the mirror.

 

Also, regarding predators -- I think that sometimes OW and MM prey on each other's weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Sometimes they are both a little crazy and they try to escape from their crazy lives by finding each other who are also a little crazy and looking for an escape. It's like they know each other's weaknesses and they work them in order to keep the affair going. They each use each other for their own selfish needs. They are both very unhappy and the affair just lets them temporarily forget that fact. It's very sad.

[silktricks]

I was a predatory serial OW but I have never done that kind of thing. I made it clear from the outset that what I wanted from the As was sex, and if MMs wanted a confidante, they should go home to their Ws of find a therapist. Talking about their problems - marital or otherwise - was completely off the agenda, a complete deal-breaker to me.

I (personally) don't call what you did being predatory. You were simply upfront about wanting an affair. What I call being predatory is where the person who wants the affair sees someone they want and slowly seduce the object of their desire. The predator can be either male or female, married or single - as can their prey.

 

As smartgirl said - many people have "techniques" but the friendship angle seems to work the best when the object of desire is married. I work with a woman who I've watched use it a number of times over the years.