Does God Exist? (The Barber Story)

[Enema]

My mother and I occasionally trade emails about theology and she recently sent me this story:

 

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Does God exist?

 

A man went to a barber shop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.

 

When they eventually touched on the subject of a God, the barber said:

"I don't believe that God exists."

 

Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

 

"Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who allow all of there things"

 

The custome thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he did not want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

 

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

 

"How can you say that?" asked the barber. "I am here, and I am a barber, and I just worked on you"

 

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside."

 

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me."

 

"Exactly!" - affirmed the customer "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!

what happens, is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him, That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

 

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Yes, she's one of "those" christians... I quickly wrote back to her with my thoughts, but would be curious to know what the religious people here think of it.

 

Do you think this story is a good way to prove the existence of god?

[Lovelybird]

Your mother is a Christian?

 

I DO think God reaches out to people, but some people don't receive, but there is a right time for them to come to God. God works in everyone's life, His love reaches out to everyone. And we are living in a fallen world, a non-perfect world, some bad things do happen because of human's sins, but there is a way out

 

I think this story cannot well explain how God works, quite contrary, God loves us first, HE loves us and reaches out to us first, then rest is how we respond to HIS love.

 

my parents has miraculous change in believe in God, I stopped to convince them long ago, just prayed for them, but I can see big change in them, I never imaged so much change can happen to them, I thought they were exposed to wrong ideas for too long time:p nothing is impossible for God !

Edited February 21, 2008 by Lovelybird

[LucreziaBorgia]

Gotta love the glurge emails.

 

I don't think its any more effective than any other similar story out there. I don't expect it would sway any agnostics or atheists.

[AdrianaLima]

This was a good point made in the e-mail.

[Storyrider]

Well, clearly people who seek and find God still suffer and have pain. And some evil people who are Godless prosper, as well as very nice Athiests. So...it isn't at all hard to refute.

[e.clipse]

Well, clearly people who seek and find God still suffer and have pain.

 

well, people who go to the barber are only nice and trimmed for a short while. the hair keeps growing, and you have to go back. it's not a one time thing. in life, hair grows. you just have to have faith that your barber will help you, but you still have to take an initiative.

 

And some evil people who are Godless prosper, as well as very nice Athiests. So...it isn't at all hard to refute.

 

yes, some un-groomed and and shaggy individuals do prosper. look at Led Zeppelin.

 

that doesn't take away the fact that barbers exist, though. they just chose not to use them, and some get away with it.

[ahoydave]

Of course that story in no way shows that God exists. What it does do a good job of though, is showing that the barber's (and many people like him) argument against the existence of God is not valid.

 

The barber says that God does not exist because he does not see God doing the things that he thinks God should do if He did exist. This is a similar argument to the one that the customer gives for barbers not existing - obviously a false one.

 

It gets a little more interesting than that though because the barber cuts people's beards and so if people came to him they wouldn't be all shaggy. Now in order for us to expect God to stop suffering, surely we would have to look at what He says He will do. My point is that if God exists then we have no right to sit around telling Him what to do. Whatever He does is right by definition, it doesn't actually matter what we think.

Edited February 21, 2008 by ahoydave

[shadowofman]

Exactly. It does suggest that if God exists, and suffering exists, then suffering is the plan of God. Therefore, the Barber should have said, "I don't think God exists and if he does, he is not worthy of my worship." And left it at that.

[ahoydave]

Oooh suffering the plan of God. That probably makes a few people feel a little uncomfortable. But one thing to bear in mind with this whole line of thinking is that we are talking about a world that is in outright rebellion against God. Now surely the just response is to destroy that world - we deserve far worse than the suffering that is part of life now. A wise old Oxford scholar, C S Lewis, once said that suffering is God's megaphone to get the world's attention (I forget the actual quote). So yes, suffering is part of God's plan.

 

The thing about shadowofman's improved barber response is that if it turned out that God DID exist and He IS in fact worthy of worship (along with having us do what He says since He created us), then the barber would deserve whatever was coming to him. I'd say the barber should be very sure of himself before saying things like that.

[Storyrider]

The story of Job is all about a righteous man who is punished by God for no reason. Then, other parts of the Bible say God rewards those who follow him and curse those who don't. Not in this world though; that is clear if you just look around. So does this promise of justice refer to the afterlife? That is what many prefer to believe.

[NoIDidn't]

The story of Job is all about a righteous man who is punished by God for no reason. Then, other parts of the Bible say God rewards those who follow him and curse those who don't. Not in this world though; that is clear if you just look around. So does this promise of justice refer to the afterlife? That is what many prefer to believe.

 

Not true. The story of Job is about a righteous and self-righteous man that God allows the devil to attack to show the devil the man's faithfulness.

 

He wasn't attacked by God. And, yes, it was for no human reason that it was allowed, though. There are plenty of things in life that happen that we don't understand or have any control of. The story of Job just illustrates that bad things happen to good people, for no real reason that they know of at all.

[NoIDidn't]

I think that the story makes the same lame point that the barber is trying to make. God is the scapegoat for everything. If everyone on the planet was rich, do we think that would make everyone happy? I doubt it. If everyone had exactly what they wanted, would they be happy all the time? Does that prove that God exists? I don't think it does.

 

I don't remember who the poster was, she is a practicing buddhist (sp?) I believe, but I agree with her stance (and so does the Bible for that matter). That in order for one side to get what they want, another side doesn't. Cause and Effect. Action/Reaction.

 

For example, Oprah's school in South Africa. She did something good for kids a continent away, but people in the US took it negatively it seemed. Why didn't she help American children? I don't know. Its the same argument that people keep making about God. If He existed, there would be no suffering...blah, blah, blah.

 

We exist. We cause most of the suffering ourselves on this planet. Why blame God for that? Why does His existence hinge on whether or not WE treat each other right? And if God means the same to most people as an all-powerful being, why should he take orders from humanity anyway? Would God exist to make us comfortable? I wasn't aware that all-powerful beings were subject to the whims of mortals.

[Lovelybird]

Do you think this story is a good way to prove the existence of god?

What do you think, brother?

[Enema]

What do you think, brother?

 

Hi Lovely,

 

Well, I think the story itself is based on a number of faulty premises.

 

1) A barber doesn't have the power to cut everyone's hair to prove barbers exist. God is supposed to be omnipotent, so he does have the power to make people aware he exists.

 

2) The story claims that there is pain and suffering because people don't look for and go to god.

- What about people that have never heard of god? They suffer needlessly.

- What about christians that suffer?

- What about non-christians that prosper?

 

These holes in the story I thought were fairly obvious. I posted it here to see if the religious posters would point them out or if they glossed over them because the story affirmed their own beliefs.

 

So, in answer to my original question: Is this story a good way to prove the existence of god?

 

My answer would be no, this is not a good tool.

[Quinch]

There are other barbers so this story could also prove that there are other gods.

[Trimmer]

Do you think this story is a good way to prove the existence of god?

No.

 

The word prove is a strong word - it means providing evidence that stands up to logical scrutiny.

 

Failing to prove something's non-existence is not proof of its existence.

 

When it comes to belief on the other hand, then everyone has his or her own standards, and all kinds of things from bumper stickers, to advertisements, to pleasant little stories all come into play.

 

So if you tell me "because of this story, I believe in God," then I say, good for you (although I would also assume that such a profound belief is based on something more than this one simple-minded metaphorical fable...) But this story doesn't prove there is a God.

[ahoydave]

I think that the story makes the same lame point that the barber is trying to make. God is the scapegoat for everything. If everyone on the planet was rich' date=' do we think that would make everyone happy? I doubt it. If everyone had exactly what they wanted, would they be happy all the time? Does that prove that God exists? I don't think it does.[/quote']

 

I would say that it is a little interesting that we can't think of a scenario where everyone is happy. It actually really sucks. Now if God exists, then surely He would know of one.

 

I don't remember who the poster was, she is a practicing buddhist (sp?) I believe, but I agree with her stance (and so does the Bible for that matter). That in order for one side to get what they want, another side doesn't. Cause and Effect. Action/Reaction.

 

For example, Oprah's school in South Africa. She did something good for kids a continent away, but people in the US took it negatively it seemed. Why didn't she help American children? I don't know. Its the same argument that people keep making about God. If He existed, there would be no suffering...blah, blah, blah.

 

I'd be really interested to know where in the Bible it says that. I'm not saying you're wrong - if it is in the Bible, then it is in the Bible and I will not argue with that. Its just that I don't really think that your "one side getting what it wants implies that another side does not get what it wants" principle is universal. What about two people who get married - who is getting what they don't want there? Or what about a sick baby who recovers form its illness - what side is not getting what it wants there?

 

We exist. We cause most of the suffering ourselves on this planet. Why blame God for that? Why does His existence hinge on whether or not WE treat each other right? And if God means the same to most people as an all-powerful being, why should he take orders from humanity anyway? Would God exist to make us comfortable? I wasn't aware that all-powerful beings were subject to the whims of mortals.

 

I think you are REALLY on to a VERY good point right there. God's existence and purpose is in no way reliant on our existence or in fact whatever it is we get up to. We tend to look at things that way because, of course, WE are the centre of the universe. The Bible does say the we can learn a lot about God from what happens in the world though. Thats what the Bible says creation is all about - God's glory (renown, fame).

[NoIDidn't]

I'd be really interested to know where in the Bible it says that. I'm not saying you're wrong - if it is in the Bible, then it is in the Bible and I will not argue with that. Its just that I don't really think that your "one side getting what it wants implies that another side does not get what it wants" principle is universal. What about two people who get married - who is getting what they don't want there? Or what about a sick baby who recovers form its illness - what side is not getting what it wants there?

 

Hi Ahoydave

 

Its not in the Bible in those words, but the concept is there. Of course, the more religious will talk about the reasons as to why the events had to happen the way that they did, but that's not the point.

 

The Israelites got their freedom from the Egyptians. The Egyptians lost their free labor.

 

The Israelites were to destroy the inhabitants of Canaan to take their land. The many kingdoms of Canaan lost their lives and land in most cases.

 

The Chaldeans took the Israelites from their Promised Land and scattered them. The Israelites lost their homes.

 

I am not really saying that the principle is universal. And it would be a whole 'nother topic. Its just a principal that I agree with a lot, even as a Christian. There are more examples that I could give, but I don't think that a marriage where two people agree to marry initially doesn't really fit the concept of the principle. The principle applies to situations that one of the parties involved really has no say in the outcome.

 

But good question. I am just not that qualified to answer coherently.