Serious consequences of adultry

[Tomcat33]

Another thing I would like to comment on when speaking of commitment to a pact made in marriage or a relationship is:

 

For example when a person commits to a project what they are saying is "I am determined to give this my all, I am going to focus on working through this project in order to bring it to fruition" It does not mean that they won't make mistakes a long the way, or that they will always do it right but the point is not that they may not do a perfect job the point is they won't abandon their duties if it does get hard or it challenges them.

 

So a person who throws in the towel, knows that they have because it has been discussed many times, and continues to do nothing to rectify this, is in essence abandoning the project.

 

We should all think of how we abandon our relationships and examine how we can get back on track. Going off track is NOT uncommon or unacceptable, what is unacceptable is doing nothing about that because that sends out a clear message to our partner that we just don't care. Sex is just the vessel for the "big picture message", the "bpm" is what we should be looking at.

[Tomcat33]

Well, that is because your a responsible person. You understand that simply because another person fails.... does not mean you have to as well.

 

 

 

That is a huge question TC!

 

In my personal opinion... when we make solemn vows we are each held to that regardless of the actions of others. Let's be honest, when people get married, they exchange vows without clauses. There is no "I will love you, if you cherish me." Does that make sense?

 

Now, in regards to the responsibility of the BS. They can't force faithfullness onto thier spouses, however they can make staying faithful easier or harder depending on their actions.

 

Most of us are not giant bedrocks of moral granite. We tend to be very conditional and situational. Most of us fail when things get really tough. So, we need to make choices that don't unessesarily burden our partners. Are we ultimatley responsible for their actions? No. However, our actions or inactions do affect them, and it's total foolishness to think otherwise.

 

With all that said... I really don't believe that most people cheat because someone wasn't meeting thier needs. So, I think Scriv and others like him are not the majority.

 

 

I cannot disagree with any of that, it could have been me thinking those very same words though you said it better. Mark today's date on your calendar, again we agree on something.

 

On the same token let me ask this:

 

Is it completely unfathomable to see the spark that happens when a person who is feeling this level of neglect from their love interest suddenly feels this from a complete stranger?

 

I am not talking about the decision to cross the line on having the affair, ok we know that's wrong, I mean just the initial feeling of what it would do to a person who is totally deprived of this to now encounter it from someone completely new.

 

If we stop and ponder on what effect this might have on somene who feels emotionally starved we might be able to understand WHY people make the foolish choices that they do when it comes to deciding to go through with an A. From that single little point to crossing over there is a very teeny tiny fine line, that quite often feels teeny because the level of commitment to what they have at home has gone down SIGNIFICANTLY given what they feel their partner is doing in return.

When the message is "my partner doesn't really care about me" then it eats away at the line that measures what is right from wrong.

 

When we embark in a relationship with someone we love and feel completely enthralled by them, we are taking and reciprocating and it's a nice steady flow of exchange of emotional "gifts" if comes almost naturally. So the line of commitment is SOLID the will to live within those parameters is very strong, but in time that line gets erroded by the perception we have from how much our partners really have emotionally invested themselves in the relationship itself. When it becomes harder to do these things naturally some people just abandon this altogether because now you are secure, you are married you have a pact and if I don't a little today it's not gonna kill anyone. And little by little it becomes the new steady pattern.

 

This is something that people fail to see, regardless of what the need is that is being neglected, as long as there is neglect it will errode that line that acts as a fort to protect each other from extrenal invasions.

Edited February 28, 2008 by Tomcat33

[Mustang Sally]

Tomcat -

Just for the record.

I am not (nor did I ever intend to be) debating the understandablility of why someone would feel enticed to go outside of one's marriage.

 

Good gravy, no. I consider myself a cheater. I have participated in what I now recognize was an EA. I can relate to the mindset very well, thanks.

 

All I am saying is that - in my opinion - cheating is not the answer when there are problems in a marriage. Nor is it acceptable. Or honest. Or honorable.

 

It is understandable, in some circumstances. But that doesn't make it right.

[JustBreathe]

The WS can come up with a kalaidoscope of reasons why they cheated: lack of sex, lack of affection, feeling ignored, weight, being in the "fog", laaaa ddeeee daaaah ad naseum.

 

The fact is the WS quits investing his emotions and sexual desire into the marriage LONG before they enter into an affair. How could your marriage have a chance when you were not invested emotionally and physically in it? So much for the state of the marriage being 50% the BS fault. In such a circumstance, the BS could cook like a French chef, wear garters and stockings to bed every night, and it would not mean a thing if her husband's mind is preoccupied elsewhere.

 

What married person doesn't feel invisible sometimes, want to feel sexy, attractive and young, etc? But you take the good with the bad. Even when you don't particularly like your spouse, it is never excusable to have an affair and make fools out of them, or stab them in the back. It is within your power to leave rather than play games with another person's mind, destroy their self esteem and spirit by concentrating on the things they don't do rather than what they DO for you.

 

As for affairs helping a marriage, in the short term, perhaps we did realize some of the things we were doing wrong in our marriage, but in the long run the damage done to our relationship outweighed any so-called positive effect his cheating may have had and it's destroyed now. No going back and belive me we TRIED. There is no positive effect affairs can have on a marriage. Ever. IF you believe that, you are deluding yourself.

 

Edited to add: My marriage didn't feel like a "contract" until now, years after d-day.

Edited February 28, 2008 by JustBreathe

[Tomcat33]

What married person doesn't feel invisible sometimes, want to feel sexy, attractive and young, etc? But you take the good with the bad. Even when you don't particularly like your spouse, it is never excusable to have an affair and make fools out of them, or stab them in the back. It is within your power to leave rather than play games with another person's mind, destroy their self esteem and spirit by concentrating on the things they don't do rather than what they DO for you.

 

 

That's all fine and dandy but what if what you don't do is a fundamental need of the other person? You may think in YOUR head you do a million other things in place to compensate but your partner doesn't want the million other things they want the partner they had when they first married, they want the person that did for them the things that made them happy THEN.

 

Communication is key if you are not discussing your needs you are on a road to perdition.

 

You can make excuses 'til the cows come home but if you neglect to give what you gave at one given time when the person AGREED to spend the rest of their lives with you, and you later down the line take some of those things away, you are NOT commited to making it work you are commited to getting comfy and not meeting your end of the bargain. A marriage/union is also learning to negotiate fairly. If you selfishly take something away you can't expect the other person to give unconditionally.

[JustBreathe]

Tomcat, with respect for you opinion, if your spouse is not meeting a fundamental need which you have, it is incumbent upon you to communicate that to your spouse and give them the opportunity to fill that burning need. Communication is indeed the key. You give your spouse the opportunity to negotiate fairly with you.

 

If they ignore you, you don't make a fool out of them and hurt them because you're angry because your needs aren't being met. That's vindictive and is not fair negotiation by any standard.

 

Tomcat, no one winds up with the person they first married. People change and when you marry you agree to weather those changes and remain committed to one person. If you have made a wrong decision and realize that person is not what you wanted after all, or that perhaps you aren't cut out for marriage, then you leave, and you don't put a knife in their heart on the way out.

 

This is only my opinion. I admit I'm jaded.

[Owl]

Example from my own MC shortly after my wife's affair:

 

We're sitting with our first MC. She clearly understood what needed to happen to recover our marriage, but didn't know how to get it across without putting my wife on the defensive, which is why we eventually went to another MC...but that's another issue.

 

We're sitting with our first MC. I'm trying to get my wife to understand how little she really knew about OM. I'm trying to get her to see how our long term history together was a greater foundation than what she was wanting to start with OM.

 

I mentioned something along the lines of "He doesn't know you. He doesn't know what your favorite music is, doesn't know all the little things about you...like that you take two sugar and two cream in your coffee."

 

She turned to me angrily and shouted "I take two sugar and THREE cream in my coffee!!!".

 

Nonplussed, I asked her "When did you change how you drank your coffee?"

 

She snarled back, "About six months ago!" (interestingly enough, about the same time she met OM)

 

Our MC stopped us right then...looked at me, and asked "How did you know that she took two sugar and two cream?"

 

I replied, "Its how she's ALWAYS drank it since we met."

 

She turned to my wife and asked "When did you tell him that you wanted three cream instead of two?"

 

My wife got angry and muttered something.

 

I asked her that myself "When did you tell me? I don't ever remember hearing you say anything about it."

 

My wife replied "I didn't want to tell you. I shouldn't have HAD to tell you. You should have KNOWN!"

 

Our counselor looked at me, then at her and asked "Did you ever ask him to add creamer when he brought you coffee?"

 

My wife shook her head no.

 

The counselor asked "What did you do with the coffee her brought you?"

 

She replied, "I drank it like it was. But it wasn't what I wanted!!"

 

Our counselor looked her straight in the eyes and asked her "How should he have known what you wanted? You never told him. You never showed him."

 

She looked at me and said, "Did you ever think to ask her if she wanted it differently?"

 

I told her honestly, "No.".

 

She said "There you go. Owl, your mistake as not asking once in a while if things had changed. Mrs Owl, your mistake was in not telling him that they had, and expecting him to read your mind and just KNOW that they'd changed."

[Owl]

I just thought I'd add...

 

After that session, I would always ask how much cream and sugar she wanted. She got bent that I'd always ask.

 

And the funniest part is...a week later, she was back to drinking it like she ALWAYS had...two and two.

 

It wasn't really about the cream. It was that she wanted to make me into the bad guy, and the guy responsible for her choice to cheat.

[Tomcat33]

Tomcat, with respect for you opinion, if your spouse is not meeting a fundamental need which you have, it is incumbent upon you to communicate that to your spouse and give them the opportunity to fill that burning need. Communication is indeed the key. You give your spouse the opportunity to negotiate fairly with you.

 

If they ignore you, you don't make a fool out of them and hurt them because you're angry because your needs aren't being met. That's vindictive and is not fair negotiation by any standard.

 

Tomcat, no one winds up with the person they first married. People change and when you marry you agree to weather those changes and remain committed to one person. If you have made a wrong decision and realize that person is not what you wanted after all, or that perhaps you aren't cut out for marriage, then you leave, and you don't put a knife in their heart on the way out.

 

This is only my opinion. I admit I'm jaded.

 

Yes but if you repeatedly communicated your dissatifaction and your partner refuses to do what is being asked of them? You did your part you communicated your needs/dissatifaction falls on deaf ears. And?

 

 

People always hope their partner will change that they will eventually come around when they drift off, in turn it becomes a viscous cycle of one feeding off the other and meanwhile the seperation becomes even more significant. We hope and wish for our partners to eventually return and in the meantime life passes, our needs grow and so does the hunger to have the needs met.

 

Exactly how many times must man beg his W to have sex with him before he starts to feel like he is no longer desired or loved? Exactly how many times must a woman beg for understanding compassion or affection from her H before she feels like she is not loved, used and taken for granted?

 

It's not that cut and dry well we talked about it so that's that. Talk is cheap without the desire to put those words into actions.

[Tomcat33]

Example from my own MC shortly after my wife's affair:

 

We're sitting with our first MC. She clearly understood what needed to happen to recover our marriage, but didn't know how to get it across without putting my wife on the defensive, which is why we eventually went to another MC...but that's another issue.

 

We're sitting with our first MC. I'm trying to get my wife to understand how little she really knew about OM. I'm trying to get her to see how our long term history together was a greater foundation than what she was wanting to start with OM.

 

I mentioned something along the lines of "He doesn't know you. He doesn't know what your favorite music is, doesn't know all the little things about you...like that you take two sugar and two cream in your coffee."

 

She turned to me angrily and shouted "I take two sugar and THREE cream in my coffee!!!".

 

Nonplussed, I asked her "When did you change how you drank your coffee?"

 

She snarled back, "About six months ago!" (interestingly enough, about the same time she met OM)

 

Our MC stopped us right then...looked at me, and asked "How did you know that she took two sugar and two cream?"

 

I replied, "Its how she's ALWAYS drank it since we met."

 

She turned to my wife and asked "When did you tell him that you wanted three cream instead of two?"

 

My wife got angry and muttered something.

 

I asked her that myself "When did you tell me? I don't ever remember hearing you say anything about it."

 

My wife replied "I didn't want to tell you. I shouldn't have HAD to tell you. You should have KNOWN!"

 

Our counselor looked at me, then at her and asked "Did you ever ask him to add creamer when he brought you coffee?"

 

My wife shook her head no.

 

The counselor asked "What did you do with the coffee her brought you?"

 

She replied, "I drank it like it was. But it wasn't what I wanted!!"

 

Our counselor looked her straight in the eyes and asked her "How should he have known what you wanted? You never told him. You never showed him."

 

She looked at me and said, "Did you ever think to ask her if she wanted it differently?"

 

I told her honestly, "No.".

 

She said "There you go. Owl, your mistake as not asking once in a while if things had changed. Mrs Owl, your mistake was in not telling him that they had, and expecting him to read your mind and just KNOW that they'd changed."

 

 

I thought your W only had an EA with some guy online? how did meeting him change the way she took her coffee!?!?!

[Owl]

It didn't change the way she liked her coffee.

 

It changed her opinion of being married. Her affair with him resulted in her fighting to avoid accepting responsibility for that affair...ergo, it all had to be MY fault, and not hers.

 

So she made up the thing about the change in how she liked her coffee to try to make it look like I DIDN'T know her that well...to make it look like I was the bad guy because I didn't just "know".

 

But it was a classic example of that communication requirement. And it was a great example of how WS's will go out of their way to shift the blame of the cheating onto the BS instead of squarely accepting it on their own shoulders.

 

I completely buy that two people contribute to the state of the marriage...although I'd add that often you'll find that one contributes more to that bad state than the other...power is almost never equally shared in a marriage. Usually one or the other "runs the show".

 

And while two people may have "created the situation" in the marriage...THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE CHOICE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR BELONGS COMPLETELY TO THE PERSON WHO HAD THE AFFAIR.

[twice_shy]

Tomcat, with respect for you opinion, if your spouse is not meeting a fundamental need which you have, it is incumbent upon you to communicate that to your spouse and give them the opportunity to fill that burning need. Communication is indeed the key. You give your spouse the opportunity to negotiate fairly with you.

 

Exactly. here is the thing. If there is neglect in a marriage, or other shortcomings, then, as long as both parties are willing to make the effort to make it better, it is fixable.

 

But then one person selfishly goes out and cheats. And although some marrige "seem" to survive this and things become better, deep down with the betrayed party, all is not right.

 

The betrayed party may be cuckold and bust their ass because they think their partner's despicable behavior is their fault. So they do what they can to make sure their partner doesn't cheat again, their partner stops said cheating actions and all is headed down a great road of recovery.

 

Right?..........wrong.

 

Things may move on for the cheater, and things may seem fine with the betrayed in the long run. But the betrayed will always hold inside what their partner did to them for the rest of their lives, if they stay together that is.

 

Point is, if a marriage "seems" to survive and all looks well in the eyes of friends, family, and the cheating partner, it will never be quite right with the betrayed party. There will always be something in them where they are still reeling from time to time of what their partner did to them.

 

I know people will chime in and say its not necessarily true, but you aren't going to convince me that the betrayed EVER recover from an affair 100%....that is like I said, unless they get rid of the cheating partner.

[twice_shy]

And in the words of Ralphie" and all is right with the world.":D

 

Or in the words of Ralphie, and the mindset of a lot of the people on this site, "we knew it was always better not to get caught"

[twice_shy]

So does this cheating happen AFTER the effort is made to fix the marriage? Or does it happen after one of the marriage partners is unwilling to address the issues that are hurting the M? Not that it's ever right to cheat. You should divorce - not cheat.

 

This is what I said:

 

"as long as both parties are willing to make the effort to make it better, it is fixable."

 

My example refers to a cheater that decides to cheat rather than to communicate and make an effort, along with their partner, to work things out.

 

If one partner doesn't want to work on it, then the question you are asking doesn't apply to what I said. If one partner doesn't want to work on it, then its over. Or it should be over anyway.

[twice_shy]

I don't know where TF you're getting your info from, but if you read my posts, I said it is NEVER okay to cheat. Good gawd!

 

I didn't say you were saying that. i am quoting Ralphie. Good gawd!

[Tomcat33]

My example refers to a cheater that decides to cheat rather than to communicate and make an effort, along with their partner, to work things out.

 

If one partner doesn't want to work on it, then the question you are asking doesn't apply to what I said. If one partner doesn't want to work on it, then its over. Or it should be over anyway.

 

Well if it's over who cares if they cheat?

 

OWL:

 

thanks for explaining the coffee thing I totally understand it now.

[twice_shy]

Well if it's over who cares if they cheat?

 

Uh, it was a hypothetical....??

[Tomcat33]

Uh, it was a hypothetical....??

 

No that was in reference to your comment that if a person refuses to do what is expected of them the relationship is over. So through power of deduction and trying to understand the mindset of a person who is willing to risk losing their partner/marriage when faced with the prospect of having all those things with someone new, the decision comes down to, "what do I have to lose, this is done anyway"

[TMCM]

That's all fine and dandy but what if what you don't do is a fundamental need of the other person? You may think in YOUR head you do a million other things in place to compensate but your partner doesn't want the million other things they want the partner they had when they first married, they want the person that did for them the things that made them happy THEN.

 

Communication is key if you are not discussing your needs you are on a road to perdition.

 

You can make excuses 'til the cows come home but if you neglect to give what you gave at one given time when the person AGREED to spend the rest of their lives with you, and you later down the line take some of those things away, you are NOT commited to making it work you are commited to getting comfy and not meeting your end of the bargain. A marriage/union is also learning to negotiate fairly. If you selfishly take something away you can't expect the other person to give unconditionally.

 

Ladies you are both right, especially you TC with this last post of yours.

 

I have to agree with the poster who said that love is conditional. If love was unconditional then it wouldn't matter if the potential spouse did or did not fulfill our most important emotional needs (i.e. affection, sex, etc) the only thing that would matter was the fact that we were married and nothing else. But let's face it folks, that is not reality in the world we live in.

[RecordProducer]

Everyone makes mistakes and is entitiled to one f*ck up in regards to this.

You mean one registered f*ck up (and unlimited number of uncovered f*ckups).

[twice_shy]

No that was in reference to your comment that if a person refuses to do what is expected of them the relationship is over.

 

Uh no, it IS hypothetical. It would not be if the people in question did try to work it out and one of them did refuse to do their part.

 

I don't know that either one of them tried, didn't try, whatever. It was an example.

[twice_shy]

I agree. Everyone makes mistakes and is entitiled to one f*ck up in regards to this.

 

KEWL!! Thanks man! I can now go out and cheat once. Afterall, I am "entitled", right?

[twice_shy]

And then there's the third way; where nothing is wrong, but one partner is a cheating POS.

 

So true SOC. But you aren't going to convince those on this board that cheat that it is a possibility. In their minds it had to be SOMETHING the other partner did to cause it.

[Tomcat33]

Originally Posted by Pyro I agree. Everyone makes mistakes and is entitiled to one f*ck up in regards to this.

 

I really hope that was a joke, otherwise it is a dumb comment. When people enter into a marriage no where is it stated we promise to honour and charish each other and we are allowed one f-up in terms of not being monogamous. If it did then there wouldn't be so many people dealing with the mess that is caused from infidelity.

 

And if it were unconditional, why would we date only the people with certain qualities that we look for? For example, for all these people who say that your partner's gaining 50 lbs shouldn't matter, and if it does matter to us we're superficial, then are you saying you date obese people? I seriously doubt you do, even if you try to tell me otherwise. So why is it then okay, once your partner has "hooked" you, for them to completely abandon all efforts to maintain reasonable height/weight proportions? That is NOT the person we married. Yeah, yeah, our metabolisms slow as we age. We ALL know that. But I have seen people, including my ex, who just became a couch potato after marriage and started shoveling in mass quantities of fatty food on a regular basis. And then their spouse is supposed to continue to find their appearance, as well as their new found attitude of sloth, attractive.

 

Exactly!!

It's one thing to age it is another to let yourself go completely and expect the same level of interest from your partner. Taking care of the physical appearance is just as important as staying faithful. They are both on level scale in terms of importance. Now that is NOT to say a person can cheat because their partner lets themselves go but if you want to examine the different ways that a person decieves a partner in a relationship that is hugely hurtful, a person marries who looks one way and who later turns out be a totally different person is deceit. That's a lie no matter how you slice it.

 

Uh no, it IS hypothetical.

 

well hypothetical or not doesn't matter you made this statement:

 

If one partner doesn't want to work on it, then the question you are asking doesn't apply to what I said. If one partner doesn't want to work on it, then its over. Or it should be over anyway.

 

 

so hypothetically in turn I asked,

"if it was over or it should be over then who cares if a person cheats?"

Edited February 29, 2008 by Tomcat33

[the_dean]

Question for all Men: (women can reverse question)

 

If you had to choose between the following, which would you prefer:

 

1. Your previously hot wife to have gained 200lbs and haw no concerns about appearance.

 

2. Your wife is still really hot but has an affair on you? (EA/PA/Both)?

 

 

I would take 2 all day long if given the choice.