andysw Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 There's heaven, and there's hell. But is there purgatory? Where in the bible does it mention the word purgatory? Link to post Share on other sites
Space Marine Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 The Bible does not mention purgatory. Not surprisingly, the Catholic church invented it. Link to post Share on other sites
Aoife Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I believe in Purgatory...your soul must be perfect to enter Heaven, but if you die living an awful life, and at the last second before death reject evil and embrace God, He will never let you be lost, but neither can you go straight to Heaven as though you had lived a perfect, sinless life!!! Your sins are still accountable. St Therese of Lisieux said 'I believe in Hell, an empty one'....she had obviously tonnes of faith, but what she was stressing was God's mercy - no matter how evil you may be, hope is never lost!!! But to enter Heaven and God's presence, you can't have a soul that hasn't redeemed itself in some way - which is why there IS a purgatory!! Read St Teresa of Avila's letters and lectures. Link to post Share on other sites
Aoife Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 As for the Bible question, Jesus said the only way to Heaven was through Him...if you reject Him all through your life, only feeling remorse at the last second before death but with no thought to Jesus, does that mean you are lost?? No way!! I don't know if you believe in Marian apparitions, but if you do, Our Lady at Fatima spoke of souls who would spend time in Purgatory...in fact, many of the Doctors of the Church mentioned Purgatory!!! Link to post Share on other sites
directx Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Yeah, it's pretty much a Catholic thing. I hope I go there. Sounds kind of cool, kind of like Heaven-Eve. Maybe it will loaded with hot chicks too. Link to post Share on other sites
Author andysw Posted February 24, 2008 Author Share Posted February 24, 2008 As for the Bible question, Jesus said the only way to Heaven was through Him...if you reject Him all through your life, only feeling remorse at the last second before death but with no thought to Jesus, does that mean you are lost?? No way!! I don't know if you believe in Marian apparitions, but if you do, Our Lady at Fatima spoke of souls who would spend time in Purgatory...in fact, many of the Doctors of the Church mentioned Purgatory!!! Many believes in purgatory, but most of them are catholics. Jesus did say that the only way to heaven was through him, but do you understand how he meant that? You probably come across the bridge example where you and God are being seperated by a gap (sin). It's impossible to cross over the gap unbless there is a bridge, and that bridge represents Jesus. He is the bridge to God (do you see an image here?). However, that bridge can only happen if we surrender and personally accept Jesus to our lives as Lord and saviour. We're all born as sinners, and there's no way in getting rid of it. We're not perfect and we'll never be, and does that mean that all of mankind will go to purgatory? But the good news is God forgives us. He will forgive unless you ask him to. Link to post Share on other sites
directx Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 And a great movie about Purgatory is Jacob's Ladder (at least that's my interpretation) Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 I think purgatory is where you do good work as an angel before you get to cross over to the other side. It's like cocktail hour of Heaven. Mixing and mingling. That's why you have to wear a pretty dress or nice suit when you're dead. Link to post Share on other sites
Space Marine Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 (edited) Most of you are proving my point in the Deism thread. They made it up and you in turn, are making up reasons why their invention could be true. This is why religion is fundamentally flawed. People will accept anything as long as they can come up with a reason that sounds plausible. Also, since when do people become Angels? I thought Angels were created before the existence of man and are completely unique beings, not dead people with wings. Edited February 24, 2008 by Space Marine Link to post Share on other sites
amaysngrace Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 They made it up and you in turn, are making up reasons why their invention could be true. So sue me. Religious beliefs are subjective and I really can't get too passionate about it or other topics like it. Who cares when angels came into existence? I just think they're pretty. Link to post Share on other sites
Space Marine Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Who cares when angels came into existence? I just think they're pretty. LOL Well I sure can't argue with that. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Did you ever read book A Divine Revelation of Hell by Mary K. Baxter? she said that Lord showed her what hell look like, she had 30 days journey in hell, and what heaven look like, when she decribed the hell, she cried, sounds hell is a terrible place, and she heard several people in the hell told her about their stories, how they end up there. Many people heard her testimonies turn to Lord and began to seriously consider their destiny Link to post Share on other sites
ahoydave Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 I believe in Purgatory...your soul must be perfect to enter Heaven, but if you die living an awful life, and at the last second before death reject evil and embrace God, He will never let you be lost, but neither can you go straight to Heaven as though you had lived a perfect, sinless life!!! Your sins are still accountable. St Therese of Lisieux said 'I believe in Hell, an empty one'....she had obviously tonnes of faith, but what she was stressing was God's mercy - no matter how evil you may be, hope is never lost!!! But to enter Heaven and God's presence, you can't have a soul that hasn't redeemed itself in some way - which is why there IS a purgatory!! Read St Teresa of Avila's letters and lectures. Hmmm the problem with this whole thing is that it seems to me to be against the teaching of Jesus. Yes, we can not be part of God's kingdom unless we are perfect. Jesus is clear (Mark 7 for example) that everyone is sinful and therefore no-one can get into heaven on their own steam. That is the very reason why Jesus came. He died to pay a ransom - our ransom. He died because we deserve to. If we recognise that we disobey God and trust in Jesus to save us then our sins are payed for - we are then holy, blameless, perfect. There is no need for us to work off our sinfulness or anything like that. Jesus died to pay for our sins so they are dealt with. If we can earn our way into heaven then why would God send His son to die? Another problem with this whole purgatory thing is that it is not in the bible as far as I know. My question then is why on earth should we believe it? Surely our beliefs must be based on or backed up by evidence. Link to post Share on other sites
D-Lish Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 .... if you die living an awful life, and at the last second before death reject evil and embrace God, He will never let you be lost, but neither can you go straight to Heaven as though you had lived a perfect, sinless life!!! Umm..... yeah, what a perfect religion to embrace. I shall live my life like Constantine... I shall kill, rape, pillage and live a life of evil.... but on my death bed I will just accept Jesus into my life and go to Heaven. Would this same god of yours condemn innocent people who don't believe in him, yet live an honorable life? What is there to motivate people to be good people if all they need to do is repent on their deathbed and have all their evil doings erased? Has anyone ever explored the idea of being a good person just for the sake of being a good person? And not doing so because they are afraid of going to hell? Geez... that is why I ran screaming from the church at a very young age. The Hypocrisy, the inconsistencies, the blind leading the blind, people making up their own rules to suit their own needs. Even as a child under the age of ten being forced to go to church, I never bought into any of that. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 There's heaven, and there's hell. But is there purgatory? Where in the bible does it mention the word purgatory? It is simply made up. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 (edited) we cannot earn the right to go to heaven. After we got saved, Holy Spirit wants to change us to be more like Jesus Christ, on our part, we have to obey and willing to cooperate with HS, and change ourselves, and deepen our relationship with Lord. If we neglect our relationship with Lord, and disobey HIM often, then the life here on earth is pretty like purgatory. Lord says "listen my words, and do them, then your joy may be complete" Edited February 25, 2008 by Lovelybird Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Another problem with this whole purgatory thing is that it is not in the bible as far as I know. My question then is why on earth should we believe it? Surely our beliefs must be based on or backed up by evidence. Factually speaking there is the same amount of "evidence" for purgatory as there is for God. Most religions just make it up as they go. There was a limbo and now the pope says there really isn't a limbo... Link to post Share on other sites
D-Lish Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Purgatory is a Catholic construction. 1245 AD I believe, but don't quote me. Maybe for you, Purgatory is living the life you are right now. Just an enquiry here to the OP, have you read the Bible from cover to cover? Every word? Just wondering. Something people have to understand about the Bible is that it has undergone a whole lot of change and construction over the centuries.... the rendition you read is not original, not even close. Don't even get me started on what is lost in language translation. Google "Canon".... and what that means. Essentially, along the way- MEN have decided what remains in the Bible- what gets added- what gets taken away, etc. I ask this question of all my religious friends and family- and I have asked it here many times and been ignored.... What is wrong with being a good person just for the sake of being good. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 What is wrong with being a good person just for the sake of being good. what do you mean to be a 'good person'? and what is 'being good'? I guess every person will explain it in many different ways. Most of human motives are self serving and selfish, for this alone none of us can be called 'good' Link to post Share on other sites
D-Lish Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Well that's just it. Being a good person doesn't matter in your world because if you repent as you die.... you are covered. It's like an awesome Christian Insurance policy that you don't have to even buy into until the very end. The idea of good is pretty much covered via LAW and Morality. There are basic tenants that form a pretty solid guideline. Granted- always debatable. So.... I live my life as a killer, rapist, liar .... am I going to meet you in Heaven because I apologize before I die? Does that make sense? Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Interesting question. I thought about this for a long time too. so I search it in Bible, if a person got saved, can he abandon all laws? can he still live in sin? the answer I found in Bible is NO, that means if a person got saved, he still needs to obey laws and commandments of God, he still needs to try his best to being godly, please wait for a second, I will quote these verses as for a person who did many bad things in his whole life, heartly repent before he die, I believe God will give him a chance. we don't know people's heart, and how they grew up, how they lived their lives, but God knows, God's judge is ultimate right. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 what do you mean to be a 'good person'? and what is 'being good'? I guess every person will explain it in many different ways. Most of human motives are self serving and selfish, for this alone none of us can be called 'good' Well "good" and "evil" as seen by a religion are a set of rules indoctrinated onto its people in order to control them. I am fully confident that humans can set up a system of morals (if you want to call that being good) with out the use of religion. Humans generally have 2 key features which will facilitate this; a basic desire to be "happy" or "content" and something very important called empathy. Being able to look at another human and feel the pain or joy that they feel. So we strive to be content in a way that does not cause us too much pain through empathy. Now this makes a lot of evolutionary sense in the fact that humans work well in groups and in fact we are very much a social creature. Those groups who work better together have an obvious advantage. Of course acting selfish can also be an advantage to an individual but that comes with a price. If you are too selfish you will end up being punished by the rest of the group. With those basic features and the brain in our heads you will end up with a pretty good secular moral system. The involvement of religion just adds nonsense to an already well worked out system. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Interesting question. I thought about this for a long time too. so I search it in Bible, if a person got saved, can he abandon all laws? can he still live in sin? the answer I found in Bible is NO, that means if a person got saved, he still needs to obey laws and commandments of God, he still needs to try his best to being godly, please wait for a second, The God of the old testament is a jealous, childish and absolutely brutal god. I would hope that the average human has enough brains to see this. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 The God of the old testament is a jealous, childish and absolutely brutal god. I would hope that the average human has enough brains to see this. Did you read my 'mirror theory' post before? Link to post Share on other sites
D-Lish Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Ummm, yeah, the "God" o f the old testament is angry, vengeful and oddly very humanlike.... hmmm. I wonder why gods in every single religion have human characteristics... Is it perhaps because it is the humans doing the imaginining and writing? So, in regard to the other side of things.... If I don't believe in god, and I die after living a truthful, happy life- am I destined to go to hell? Link to post Share on other sites
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