can't accept his drinking habits.

[Kamille]

I went to get my stuff yesterday... Two car-loads. He was there.

 

It was hearwrenching. My eyes are still sore today from all the crying we did. It was extremely difficult... We both love each other, but I feel that my love is stunted by the place of alcohol in our lives. He wants me to give him a chance to prove that he can change his habits. We decided to give each other some time to think all this through and see if we can rebuild trust little by little.

 

So I've been looking up Alanon. There are a lot of meetings in my area. I'll admit that I'm a bit nervous about going, the same way I would be nervous about going to a class for the first time. What should I expect?

 

I've been reading up a lot and I think he may be an alcohol abuser, more then alcohol dependent or alcoholic. I'm hoping alanon will help me figure out my own fears in regard to his drinking.

[marlena]

Kamille darling,

 

I had no intention of posting today as I haven't been quite myself this past week. However, after reading your thread, I felt compelled to do so as I think very highly of you.

 

I am very sorry that things took such an abrupt turn for the worse. Obviously, your boyfriend's drinking is causing you great anguish and stress, so much so, that it has ruined an otherwise very promising relationship.

 

My question to you is: "If his drinking did not cause a shift in personality or abusive behaviour, why was it so wrong? To me, it sounds like he is in control of the booze and not the booze in control of him.

 

I agree with those who said it is a cultural peculiarity. In Europe, people drink daily, accompanying meals with drinks and then having one or two more at night just to wind down and relax. It's the norm of things. This is not considered alcoholism. It is only alcoholism when the user becomes abusive,violent or dangerous to himself or others that a problem is even admitted as existing.

 

He had so many other redeeming and admirable qualities that I can't help but wonder whether you should have been more tolerant of his indulgence. It would be a shame to throw out a good connection with a quality person for just this reason.

 

That said, of course, you are right in setting and keeping your boundaries. If this is something unacceptable to you, then, you did the right thing.

 

Where does your fear of alcoholism come from? Why such a deep anxiety over this? Could you have seen other aspects of his character that, well, just didn't "sit well" with you? Is it possible that you were hiding other fears behind the fear of alcoholism?

 

Marlena

Edited February 29, 2008 by marlena

[Art_Critic]

To me, it sounds like he is in control of the booze and not the booze in control of him.

 

Where does your fear of alcoholism come from?

 

 

Marlena...

 

You seem to believe that it is Kamille's issue and not his.. Why is that ?

 

He is not in control of his drinking..

Read what she posted..

 

He then says 'if you don't mind, tonight for xyz reasons, I will have beer but in exchange I won't drink tomorow or the day after '. I answered 'hmmm ok - I mean, that really is up to you. You say you can ease up on your drinking so it's up to you to decide how you do it'. I tried to stay chipper, but by the time the bottle of scotch came out, I felt angry, hurt, like I was fooling myself, like he was in denial, like nothing was going to change - ever.

 

and as far as a fear of Alcoholism.. Who doesn't have a fear of Alcoholism ?.. her ex is a drunk.. it isn't cultural and she should fear it...

 

The person involved with the Alcoholic isn't the problem Marlena.. it is the person doing the drinking that is the problem.

[Art_Critic]

He had so many other redeeming and admirable qualities that I can't help but wonder whether you should have been more tolerant of his indulgence.

 

Tolerance of his drinking.. WTF ? .. When is it enough ?...His drinking is obviously an issue between them and he doesn't want to quit because he can't.. because he has a problem with his drinking..

Why should she tolerate that for one minute ?

 

Blaming the victim mentality never works....

[marlena]

Art,

 

I understand what you are saying and I am by no means making it out to be Kamille's problem.

 

But if he is in control,say he has a high tolerance level, and it does not negatively effect their relationship, maybe, just saying, since I don't know the man, she threw out a good thing and that would be a pity. As far as I can remember, she has said so many positive things about him.

 

But of course, she knows better. She is intelligent and has every right to decide what is acceptable and what isn't. If his drinking impacted their relationship, then, yes, she most positively did the right thing.

[blind_otter]

It is my firm belief that one should never "tolerate" something in their loved one that is unhealthy and damaging to them. Some people may be able to turn a blind eye to the one they love the most slowly destroying themselves, but I cannot. I watched my father do this and it was the SINGLE most PAINFUL and agonizing experience of my life.

 

As I stated above (post #19), something which those who drink heavily would like to ignore, the fact is that longterm alcohol abuse and dependency does have serious consequences, but as with the odious habit of smoking cigarettes, you don't see the consequences until it is simply too late to do anything about it.

 

Personally, if I love someone, I want them to live a long, healthy life. I do NOT want to watch them age prematurely and destroy their organ systems to the point where I must care for them in late middle age and watch them die slowly and painfully.

[Ariadne]

I went to get my stuff yesterday... Two car-loads. He was there...It was hearwrenching. My eyes are still sore today from all the crying we did.

 

Wow...

 

I can understand both of your positions.

 

Say, this: I was feeling in a good mood and was making a dinner for us and was super happy to see him when he came home. I felt lighthearted... bottle of scotch came out, I felt angry, hurt, like I was fooling myself.

 

I don't think you can live like that, with your mood flip flopping depending or whether or not the guy is getting a drink.

 

And him having the responsibility of your moods.

 

Well, see what happens now. Hugs.

[Art_Critic]

But if he is in control,say he has a high tolerance level, and it does not negatively effect their relationship,

 

I haven't seen on this thread where she posted that he could drink in control and had a high tolerance level as well as it not negatively affecting their relationship..

 

I have read her posts and they say he cannot control his drinking..as it has affected their relationship negatively..

 

IMO enabling an Alcoholic to continue his drinking isn't a positive step in the right direction..

Alcoholism is a progressive disease that just plain out gets worse the more time that goes by..

 

Nothing positive comes out of abusing Alcohol.. At least that has been my experience.. maybe you have had another...

[marlena]

I have read her posts and they say he cannot control his drinking..as it has affected their relationship negatively..

 

Perhaps he can not control or does not want to control his drinking if he sees there is nothing wrong with it. He may feel he is not indulging in excess and never loses control.

 

But, when all is said and done, it doesn't matter what he thinks. What matters is that it makes Kamille unhappy. Seen from that perspective, she did the right thing for herself.

[Kamille]

Leave LS for a couple of hours...

 

Marlena, I have to say that I fully understand your perspective and am worried that I am going to regret this decision for a long time. Oddly, your post pretty much echoes what he says. I am starting to try and assess why it is that his drinking scares me so much, but like Art said, who isn't afraid of alcoholism? Plus I have seen friends of mine struggle with raising children with alcoholic partners who would be absent at the worst times. I actually believe he wouldn't let alcohol completely mess up his life, yet the fact that he maintains his habits in spite of repeated concerns about his drinkings make me wonder if he might have an issue with dependance and if so what I would be getting into.

 

I have been telling him since november that his alcohol intake worries me and I haven't seen much of a change in his habits. That's why I think he is an 'alcohol abuser' on the cups of dependency. If there was absolutely no form of dependance, in my mind, he would have been able to take what I said into account and ease up. But I guess I was wrong about how he would deal with the break up. He hasn't over-indulged and gone on a tear.

 

But we are thinking of trying to find a middle ground somehow since he does otherwise have a lot to offer. He said: it's unfair I feel like you want to change me and I said: well you feel that way because yes I want you to change. I asked him to think about that, be honest with himself and tell me if he could live with that. I know it's unfair to sustain a relationship in the hope someone changes, but I have tried to accept his habits but always come up short. I am therefore also being honest in saying I cannot live with it. I think it is only fair that if he feels my request are too demanding that we part ways, that he find someone more tolerant.

 

The fondamental value we do not share is linked to attitudes towards health and well-being. I want to be with someone who wants to take care of himself. Blind Otter has pointed out all the possible outcomes of prolonged alcohol intake. For my part, what I feel like I was confronted too dayly was the fact that he refused to take responsibility for his well-being. He has a hard time recognizing the validity of that feeling, yet for me it's linked to how much I love him. The more I was falling, the more I was having problems with the drinking and smoking. I love him so I want him to be healthy. Which suddenly makes me think that maybe my fear is linked to the fact that all my life I watched my mother's health deteriorate because of complications related to a degenerative disease (Rhumatoid Arthritis). I have to dig into that.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Kamille

[Trialbyfire]

All I'm going to say is that you give al-anon a chance, regardless of getting back with your b/f or not. If nothing else, it will make you realize that when you love someone, yes, you would like them to change but you need to understand that you cannot control that change, or control him. He isn't a reflection on you and he isn't doing this to hurt you.

 

What I do see from your posts, is that you can't accept his lifestyle. To have a successful relationship, you need to have compatibility. I think you're not only stressing yourself out with this, but you're also stressing him out too.

 

Go to al-anon and put some distance between the two of you, for the interim, until you've completed the twelve-step program. Then see if you want to work on the relationship or not. Let your b/f know that this is the tactic you plan to take so he understands it's a long-haul situation.

 

Btw, if you're not religious, you can replace the references to God, with other forms of ultimate spirituality. It's the underlying message that counts.

[Kamille]

What I do see from your posts, is that you can't accept his lifestyle. To have a successful relationship, you need to have compatibility. I think you're not only stressing yourself out with this, but you're also stressing him out too.

 

Oh absolutely! I feel like I keep throwing wrenches in the barrel's wheels. I am trying to figure out why I am having such a hard time accepting his lifestyle and am hoping Alanon might help me sort it out.

 

Go to al-anon and put some distance between the two of you, for the interim, until you've completed the twelve-step program. Then see if you want to work on the relationship or not. Let your b/f know that this is the tactic you plan to take so he understands it's a long-haul situation.

 

That's the plan right now. I haven't told him about going to Alanon because, after all, according to him, there's no problem. But, je vais prendre mon courage à deux mains (I will take my courage in both my hands) and tell him what I am planning on doing. Whether or not he feels insulted, at least he will see that I am trying to sort it out for me.

 

And as to the control thing, it does get very confusing. He feels that I am trying to control him and that if it wasn't about alcohol and smoking it would be about something else. I honestly don't know what the answer to that one is.

 

F"ck I miss him.

[Kamille]

I want him back. I want to work this out. I should probably start another thread in the break up section, but the whole thing just feels too long to explain.

[Star Gazer]

I want him back. I want to work this out. I should probably start another thread in the break up section, but the whole thing just feels too long to explain.

 

You want what you had at the very beginning back. Understandable.

 

But that's not what you have now, or what is reality. You don't want what's available to you, Kam.

[Kamille]

You want what you had at the very beginning back. Understandable.

 

But that's not what you have now, or what is reality. You don't want what's available to you, Kam.

 

I suddenly feel like I pushed the break up button too soon. I love him, he loves me there should be a way to figure this out.

 

I'm also thinking, as I unpack the multiple boxes, that I did what I always do in spite of warning to myself: I rushed into it. So in a way I lost a bit of myself in that relationship and his drinking bothers me this much because I'm too fusional. I don't make the separation between who he is and who I am and that's why I am having such a hard time dealing with his drinking.

[latefragment]

I had a boyfriend who had a couple drinks every night and also smoked weed. This was many many years ago. At the time I was in love with him and felt he was harming himself , his health, and it hurt *me* because I didn't want him to hurt himself (healthwise) ... thereby hurting our relationship and thereby me. I didn't want him to get cirrhosis of the liver down the road or whatever.

 

So that drove a wedge into our relationship. Of course we broke up but we gave it a good 2.5 years. There were of course some other issues at play besides the drinking/pot.

 

But one thing that struck me is that the next guy I dated also drank (not as much though) and smoked pot too. However, it was somehow different with him. 2nd guy seemed to hold his liquor exceptionally well. I.e. when 1st bf drank, within a few drinks you could tell he was starting to get slurry with his speech and his personality changed. With 2nd bf you could hardly tell he'd had a drink. Same with the pot.

 

Of course I didn't end up with either of these guys in the long term (though I dated 2nd guy for a whole year, we were very much in love) but I am just wondering if your bf's demeanor, presence, attitude , or personality changes when he has had a couple drinks? Or does he act the same but his breath just smells.

 

And has his smoking habit remained about the same? Is he still having those intellectual "superiority" arguments with you? Do you think that those things are exacerbated or co-morbid with the drinking?

 

Just something to think about.

[Art_Critic]

Kam.. Go to a few Alanon meetings first..

Talk with other women in the same type of situations you are in and find someone that can be your friend..

 

You are no match for an actively drinking Alcoholic.. We have a way with words that can suck you right back in...

He has what he wants..you don't have what you want yet..

 

Make sure you have some support from Alanon before you go back or even decide to go back...

[Kamille]

Kam.. Go to a few Alanon meetings first..

Talk with other women in the same type of situations you are in and find someone that can be your friend..

 

You are no match for an actively drinking Alcoholic.. We have a way with words that can suck you right back in...

He has what he wants..you don't have what you want yet..

 

Make sure you have some support from Alanon before you go back or even decide to go back...

 

There's a meeting tonight. I'm a bit nervous about going.

[blind_otter]

There's a meeting tonight. I'm a bit nervous about going.

 

You don't have to say anything, just sit in the back if you're really nervous. I did that for like 3 meetings when I first started going to AA. I just observed, and even just listening really helped.

[Star Gazer]

I love him, he loves me there should be a way to figure this out.

 

Sometimes love just ain't enough. You can love someone and have them love you in return and still be, 100%, without a doubt, incompatible as life partners.

[Kamille]

I had a boyfriend who had a couple drinks every night and also smoked weed. This was many many years ago. At the time I was in love with him and felt he was harming himself , his health, and it hurt *me* because I didn't want him to hurt himself (healthwise) ... thereby hurting our relationship and thereby me. I didn't want him to get cirrhosis of the liver down the road or whatever.

 

So that drove a wedge into our relationship. Of course we broke up but we gave it a good 2.5 years. There were of course some other issues at play besides the drinking/pot.

 

But one thing that struck me is that the next guy I dated also drank (not as much though) and smoked pot too. However, it was somehow different with him. 2nd guy seemed to hold his liquor exceptionally well. I.e. when 1st bf drank, within a few drinks you could tell he was starting to get slurry with his speech and his personality changed. With 2nd bf you could hardly tell he'd had a drink. Same with the pot.

 

Of course I didn't end up with either of these guys in the long term (though I dated 2nd guy for a whole year, we were very much in love) but I am just wondering if your bf's demeanor, presence, attitude , or personality changes when he has had a couple drinks? Or does he act the same but his breath just smells.

 

And has his smoking habit remained about the same? Is he still having those intellectual "superiority" arguments with you? Do you think that those things are exacerbated or co-morbid with the drinking?

 

Just something to think about.

 

He still smoked the same. We were planning on moving together to another city and he had promised he would start smoking outside there. I believe he would have gone through with it, perhaps not gracefully. But as we were trying to figure out the drinking thing, he still smoked a pack a day inside. To me, living in a smoky environment felt like a nightmare (my apologies to all the inside-smokers out there).

 

The intellectual superiority arguments had changed, in part because he took what I said into account and in part because I stopped feeling like I had something to prove.

 

I really started getting moody about the drinking once we started talking about moving together. All of a sudden I was thinking about the future, and kids and realizing that he wasn't exactly the role model I wanted for my children.

 

He doesn't change behaviour until the 6th drink, and lately he probably goes over the 6 drink limit about once every 2 weeks (it was everynight in December). He does hold his liquor well.

[Kamille]

I just got back from the meeting and I'm still stunned. Today's topic was: expectations.

 

And all of sudden my fears all made sense to me. I have high expectations, of myself, of my bf, of my future.

 

I feel like I might be compromising my dreams if I chose to stay with him.

 

I don't know what to make of that, but all I know is that the meeting helped me understand things from another angle.

 

Anyways, thank you everyone for getting my asz to that meeting.

 

I didn't speak but did feel very welcomed, fairly unsettled and of course when they asked me if I wanted to say anything I basically just bawled.

[sb129]

There is nothing wrong with having expectations, especially seeing as yours aren't particularly unrealistic.

 

I wouldn't want to be in a LTR and discussing having kids with a smoker or a heavy drinker.

 

I have lived with alcohol abuse in a few different guises, and even gave it a bash myself briefly, but fortunately for me, I don't tolerate it particularly well, and these days I don't enjoy drinking more than a glass or two of nice wine with a meal now and then.

Its not a good thing to have in a family. I am happy to PM you with more details if you want.

[PerfectLee]

Kamille-Bottom line is that he needs to see that it bothers you. If he loves you, he'll change it up a bit. I know many would disagree w/that, but my GF did it for "US". She used to drink a 48 pack by herself before meeting me, and now it's 2-5 a few times a week. That's a huge turn-a-round. She admits that living a SOBER life sucks, that she is an alcoholic, it runs in her family, but it's no excuse for her habit. Once she starts, she can't stop and we've talked about different ways to control it, from limiting drinks at a party (which doesn't work-because a lot of times it depends on who is there, how long the party is and what there is to eat-meaning, will the foods she eats help absorb more alcohol or not) to not having beer in the fridge at home. It forces her to think about whether she really wants to drink or not, and because she works so hard, all she wants to do at night is relax and not have to go back out to buy beer.

 

He must see that it bothers you, you're crying when he's not around (I completely understand that feeling) and in a huge sense you feel abandoned. Regardless of the reason(s) why he drinks (although that's relevant too) he cannot choose beer over you. He's got to have enough self respect for himself. If you feel this way then something needs to change.

 

This is what I said to my GF, "I love you, I know you love me deeply too, and I feel that sometimes the booze takes presidence over me and our relationship. I really don't mind you drinking every once in a while in a responsible way, I need to know that you're safe, and I know I'm not your mother...but for the sake of YOU and OUR future, I think it's important that you have balance in your life-that you're healthly in all areas of it. I like drinking too, socially and for fun, and I will not be responsible for your actions any longer, I won't drag you into bed, I won't clean up your throw-up, and I won't cover-up to my friends that you embarrassed me in front of and tell them that everything's ok. You will lose me if this continues and I think you know why. You're a smart girl with ambitions and dreams and I will not be part of your life's equation if it involves dealing with an alcoholic that chooses to continue. I will stand by you, help you, listen to you, we'll go to AA if you want, if not, then lets figure this out."

 

You've got to say something, even if it's just "Hey-I'm concerned about how much you drink, and I'm not going to talk about how it affects me right now, but I do want to listen to you if you want to talk about the reasons why you do." If he doesn't, and day after day he still doesn't, then I guess he will just have to have a great relationship with himself and his booze. My GF once told me that beer in many ways is better than a person. It listens to you, doesn't judge you, and it's always there when you need it. So yes...I was jealous of beer for a long long time, still am sometimes, but if he really loves you, he'll change it up to where it's a compromise for the both of you.

[Kamille]

There is nothing wrong with having expectations, especially seeing as yours aren't particularly unrealistic.

 

I wouldn't want to be in a LTR and discussing having kids with a smoker or a heavy drinker.

 

I have lived with alcohol abuse in a few different guises, and even gave it a bash myself briefly, but fortunately for me, I don't tolerate it particularly well, and these days I don't enjoy drinking more than a glass or two of nice wine with a meal now and then.

Its not a good thing to have in a family. I am happy to PM you with more details if you want.

 

I think what the discussion on expectations has helped me realize is that these expectations are my own. I wasn't very good at explaining to him why his drinking bothered me. I just took it as obvious, or hoped it was obvious, that there was something wrong with it. The various answers on this thread show that whether or not there was something wrong with his drinking is highly subjective.

 

The meeting helped me assess why I had a problem. It helped me see that, as things are now, it was mostly my problem and not his. I'm not saying my concerns are irrational, quite the opposite. But I now better understand where I was coming from.

 

I told a close friend about how it was my expectations that were prompting my fears; how I always envisionned my future. Her reaction was : but you have the right to those expectations. She's right, only I can't impose them on anyone else.

 

Anyways, he and I are going to see each other tomorow to talk. I feel a bit more grounded. We both agreed that if we choose to reconciliate, we need to take things slow, given the amount of hurt we've just caused each other and given the question of whether or not we are compatible.