can't accept his drinking habits.

[Trialbyfire]

Grrrr...I keep reading post after post, suggesting that the person do things for you, because they care enough about you. An alcoholic is an adult. They have to want to change for themselves. They have to want a more healthy lifestyle. They're not a reflection on you and you have no right to hold them responsible for your life's expectations. You have the right to consider them as people worth keeping in your life or not.

 

Alcoholism isn't a nasty little habit of leaving your dirty socks lying around the house. It's a combination of mental and physical addiction. You can't force an alcoholic to change. You can empower/encourage/enable an alcoholic to want to lead a sober life. You also should never empower/encourage/enable an alcoholic to drink or give them understanding about failing at life's little tasks. They should be held responsible for upholding their portion of the relationship, as well as any other daily responsibilities. If they can't hold down a decent job, due to alcoholism, they shouldn't be sympathized with. They, like every other adult, have to take their lives into their own hands. They, like every other adult, are in control and responsible for their lives.

[marlena]

but you have the right to those expectations. She's right, only I can't impose them on anyone else.

 

 

This is the crux of it all.

 

We can't mould other people into what we expect of them but we can decide whether or not we want them in our lives.

 

Anyway, good luck tomorrow.

 

Marlena

[Kamille]

Grrrr...I keep reading post after post, suggesting that the person do things for you, because they care enough about you. An alcoholic is an adult. They have to want to change for themselves. They have to want a more healthy lifestyle. They're not a reflection on you and you have no right to hold them responsible for your life's expectations. You have the right to consider them as people worth keeping in your life or not.

 

I absolutely agree and in no way do I want to become my partner's drinking police. I think I was feeling very uncomfortable with the compromise we were building (negotiating nights with no drinking) because it felt like I was putting myself in charge of managing his drinking. I wanted him to show me he wasn't dependant, thought I wanted those no drinking nights, but definitely wasn't comfortable with the position of him doing it only to please me. It definitely undermined trust.

 

Alcoholism isn't a nasty little habit of leaving your dirty socks lying around the house. It's a combination of mental and physical addiction. You can't force an alcoholic to change. You can empower/encourage/enable an alcoholic to want to lead a sober life. You also should never empower/encourage/enable an alcoholic to drink or give them understanding about failing at life's little tasks. They should be held responsible for upholding their portion of the relationship, as well as any other daily responsibilities. If they can't hold down a decent job, due to alcoholism, they shouldn't be sympathized with. They, like every other adult, have to take their lives into their own hands. They, like every other adult, are in control and responsible for their lives.

 

My (ex-)bf was upset because he has otherwise shown me that he is a very responsible person. The reason I felt so happy to have him in my life was because he is a very mature, very considerate person; someone ready to commit and accept someone in his life.

 

anyways, I have a long way to go and am actually looking foward to the road. That one meeting gave me hope that I could possibly discover a lot of things about myself. I am a bit scared of some of the steps; not feeling ready for them. But I think this means precisely that I have work to do on myself.

 

We can't mould other people into what we expect of them but we can decide whether or not we want them in our lives.

 

Sounds simple, doesn't it?

[marlena]

Sounds simple, doesn't it?

 

Yeah, I know. Easier said than done.

 

Kamille,

 

Have you told your boyfriend that you have gone to AA meeting? If yes, how did he react? If not, how do you think he would react if you were to tell him?

[sb129]

I think what the discussion on expectations has helped me realize is that these expectations are my own. I wasn't very good at explaining to him why his drinking bothered me. I just took it as obvious, or hoped it was obvious, that there was something wrong with it. The various answers on this thread show that whether or not there was something wrong with his drinking is highly subjective.

 

The meeting helped me assess why I had a problem. It helped me see that, as things are now, it was mostly my problem and not his. I'm not saying my concerns are irrational, quite the opposite. But I now better understand where I was coming from.

 

I told a close friend about how it was my expectations that were prompting my fears; how I always envisionned my future. Her reaction was : but you have the right to those expectations. She's right, only I can't impose them on anyone else..

 

But your expectations involve having someone else in your life- so "imposing" them on someone else is just another thing that helps you decide whether you want the person in your life or not.

 

 

Grrrr...I keep reading post after post, suggesting that the person do things for you, because they care enough about you. An alcoholic is an adult. They have to want to change for themselves. They have to want a more healthy lifestyle. They're not a reflection on you and you have no right to hold them responsible for your life's expectations. You have the right to consider them as people worth keeping in your life or not.

They, like every other adult, have to take their lives into their own hands. They, like every other adult, are in control and responsible for their lives.

 

Absolutely- the number one thing I have learned from al-anon etc, is that you cannot make a person stop drinking if THEY don't want to.

But you can decide whether or not you want to stay in the R. If the R isn't meeting your expectations, then you should consider leaving- and you have.

Occasionally, losing a partner may be the trigger that someone needs to take a good hard look in the mirror.

[Kamille]

Yeah, I know. Easier said than done.

 

Kamille,

 

Have you told your boyfriend that you have gone to AA meeting? If yes, how did he react? If not, how do you think he would react if you were to tell him?

 

I will tell him tomorow, and tell him that I am doing it for me. I think he will react fairly well to it. He is one of the most accepting person I know. The only hitch, and this is the irony of it all, is that he's actually done work as a substance abuse councellor and seems to be very critical of anything out there that is meant to help people dealing with addictions... So he might be condescending towards the program, but that doesn't matter. Like I said, I think I can definitely get something out of it, for me, whether he and I work things out or not.

[Trialbyfire]

Absolutely- the number one thing I have learned from al-anon etc, is that you cannot make a person stop drinking if THEY don't want to.

But you can decide whether or not you want to stay in the R. If the R isn't meeting your expectations, then you should consider leaving- and you have.

Occasionally, losing a partner may be the trigger that someone needs to take a good hard look in the mirror.

Exactly.

 

"I'm not going to drink for the next 5 minutes."

 

Compared to:

 

"You won't love me if I drink."

 

Which leads to:

 

"I don't need this shyte."

[marlena]

he's actually done work as a substance abuse councellor and seems to be very critical of anything out there that is meant to help people dealing with addictions... So he might be condescending towards the program,

 

There is a paradox here. Does this mean that he did not have much conviction in the work he was doing? If so, then, why was he doing it?

[sb129]

I will tell him tomorow, and tell him that I am doing it for me. I think he will react fairly well to it. He is one of the most accepting person I know. The only hitch, and this is the irony of it all, is that he's actually done work as a substance abuse councellor and seems to be very critical of anything out there that is meant to help people dealing with addictions... So he might be condescending towards the program, but that doesn't matter. Like I said, I think I can definitely get something out of it, for me, whether he and I work things out or not.

 

the shoemakers children are never shod huh?

[Kamille]

There is a paradox here. Does this mean that he did not have much conviction in the work he was doing? If so, then, why was he doing it?

 

He hasn't told me all about his past, but I know that he was involved in a street gang as a teenager and experimented with a lot of drugs. I know something dramatic happened at one point that made him decide to quit all drugs and specialize in problems related to substance abuse. He describes it as : seeing close friends destroy their lives because of drugs.

 

I think he was very passionate about the work he was doing. He worked within the carceral system and eventually found that working on changing how substance abusers are infantilized, marginalized and excluded by the very structure of the system would be more productive then helping the system keep them incarcerated. He wrote a book on the topic which will be publisehd next month, so I will know more about it all in a few weeks, once I read that book.

 

I think his involvement in that field explain 1) why, if he has a dependance, he is still very functionnal. He knows all the tests for having applied them to other people and knows which behaviours to avoid (such as feeling guilty for his intake). 2) why it is extremely difficult to discuss my concerns with him. He has a ready answer for all of it. I think it reassures him about his own habits, but it makes me wonder if he hasn't over-rationalized it.

[marlena]

I am indeed impressed.

 

Yes, I can definitely see how he would want to pick your arguments apart in an effort to justify his own rationale in so far as his drinking problem is concerned. He probably feels that his assessments are more valid than yours as he has the expertise that you lack.

 

It seems that in his mind drugs and alcohol are two different things. If he was able to quit the drugs, then, surely, he can, if he really wants to, quit the booze as well.

In all likelihood, he does not consider himself an alcoholic, just a moderate drinker who never loses control when inebriated.

 

This is a tough one Kamille. Just maintain your composure when you talk to him. Hope you have good news to report.

 

Marlena

[sb129]

. He wrote a book on the topic which will be publisehd next month, so I will know more about it all in a few weeks, once I read that book.

 

I think his involvement in that field explain 1) why, if he has a dependance, he is still very functionnal. He knows all the tests for having applied them to other people and knows which behaviours to avoid (such as feeling guilty for his intake). 2) why it is extremely difficult to discuss my concerns with him. He has a ready answer for all of it. I think it reassures him about his own habits, but it makes me wonder if he hasn't over-rationalized it.

 

I agree with Marlena. It would be very very difficult to argue with someone in his position, and he does indeed seem to have "rationalised" his drinking perfectly. If he doesn't ever feel guilty about his intake, despite knowing that it affects you, then I fear he may never change his habits, as guilt is usually a major factor that triggers a desire to change.

 

Yes, I can definitely see how he would want to pick your arguments apart in an effort to justify his own rationale in so far as his drinking problem is concerned. He probably feels that his assessments are more valid than yours as he has the expertise that you lack.

 

He has already shown this kind of attitude in other areas, for example when you have been talking about your work, so it stands to reason that he would take this stance when talking about his drinking habits.

 

It seems that in his mind drugs and alcohol are two different things. If he was able to quit the drugs, then, surely, he can, if he really wants to, quit the booze as well.

In all likelihood, he does not consider himself an alcoholic, just a moderate drinker who never loses control when inebriated.

 

Many people are able to rationalise drinking and smoking, especially as they are more socially acceptable and legally available than other kinds of drugs.

There is also less crime associated with legal substances, so people can rationalise it to themselves that way- that they are not funding a seedy underworld.

The fact is that alcohol and tobacco kill more people every day than all the other kinds of abused substances combined. If every death from alcohol/tobacco was publicised, the papers would be full of nothing but.

 

People make choices about their behaviour all the time, and I am in no position to judge someone who chooses to continue a habit that they know may be bad for them.

As long as they continue to justify it to themselves, the behaviour is not likely to change. However if my behaviour was affecting a personal relationship, I think I would re-examine whether my justifications were as valid as I had previously thought.

 

Unfortunately, I am not your exBF.

[Kamille]

Unfortunately, I am not your exBF.

 

That made me laugh. Yes, I did find it hard that he never took my concerns into account and used the opportunity to question his justifications. Instead, he always questionned me and my motives. Now that I think about it, he did this very much the same way it was always me who was suppose to question myself when we discussed theory and always him who was the expert .

 

He has a very hard time accepting criticism. Once and only once did I manage to 'win' a theoretical argument, and on the day when I went to pick up my stuff, he reminisced about that moment as me saying very harsh things about him as a sociologist. The thing is, I was challenging on his perception of rurality=hick/urbanity=cool and linking it to how it could affect his sociological perspective. To me the point was fair because as social theorists we should always be able to question how our "common sense" affect the knowledge we produce. I feel like he has told me much harsher things about how I practice knowledge in the course of our theoretical discussions (focusing on my failures to communicate my ideas clearly, for instance, or telling me I didn't master perticular topics), yet he had integrated my comments as personnal criticism - as a form of judgement.

 

Ok by now I'm ranting but it also all comes down to the very first issue we had: his constant need for approval, and my approval in perticular. It's like he thought he needed to be perfect all the time in order for me to love him. I could never show enough that I loved him. This made it so that when I actually had a real issue (smoking, drinking) he would become incredibly self-defensive, feel judged and resist taking what I had to say into account.

[sumdude]

Hi K,

This thread and others like it are hard as he** for me to read.... I was on the other side of the the equation and my ex wife left me without warning one day. There were many reasons but the biggest she gave was my drinking. She knew I was a drinker when she married me... but then hard times with stress came into our lives, my mother passed away and my drinking really flared up. I would make the promises, break them... slow down for a day or two... then not... I had little to no real control over it for a long while.

I was never the angry, violent or abusive type... just depressed and distant. Otherwise I was a very devoted, commited, faithful and decent husband but that wasn't enough.

 

I heard her tell me how she hated the way I smelled after a while....that it killed her attraction to me.. That she just couldn't take the lifestyle anymore..

 

For you to make this choice now rather than later... might be a good thing for both of you. Only you can make that decision..

[Kamille]

Hi K,

This thread and others like it are hard as he** for me to read.... I was on the other side of the the equation and my ex wife left me without warning one day. There were many reasons but the biggest she gave was my drinking. She knew I was a drinker when she married me... but then hard times with stress came into our lives, my mother passed away and my drinking really flared up. I would make the promises, break them... slow down for a day or two... then not... I had little to no real control over it for a long while.

I was never the angry, violent or abusive type... just depressed and distant. Otherwise I was a very devoted, commited, faithful and decent husband but that wasn't enough.

 

I heard her tell me how she hated the way I smelled after a while....that it killed her attraction to me.. That she just couldn't take the lifestyle anymore..

 

For you to make this choice now rather than later... might be a good thing for both of you. Only you can make that decision..

 

I'm so sorry Sumdude that you had to go through this. Drinking is a very confusing issue for me. I am starting to realize (and some people will lambast me for this), that part of the reason his drinking cause a problem for me was because I wasn't happy with myself.

 

So right now, I am taking a lot more time for myself, doing the things that are important to me and, this way, his drinking has been having less of an impact on me.

 

I still worry about the future, and what it might all mean, but thanks to Al-Anon I no longer feel so confused about it all. And I don't feel like I am taking a ridiculous risk.

 

Alcohol is confusing terrain. But I sometimes think, if it were any other disease, people would call me selfish for walking away.

[Rooster_DAR]

Real men drink!

 

hahah...JK

 

Many men drink, there's nothing wrong with it unless if affects their life in some negative way. The difference between an alcoholic and a social drinker is that a social drinker can stop anytime, and his personality is not altered.

 

Women should accept men for the way they are when they meet them, unless it becomes a underlying issue that causes harm in some way. Personally, I would not date any women who didn't appreciate a man because he drinks here and there, perhaps it's just a personal preference.

 

Cheers!

 

Oh, I mean bottoms up!

[sumdude]

But I sometimes think, if it were any other disease, people would call me selfish for walking away.

 

Don't worry about what 'people might think'... you don't need anyone's approval to do what you feel is right. Though I must admit that i wish perhaps my ex w had a similar attitude.