Just Started NC Today

[HeatherK08]

Actually, according to Reform Judaism and even Conservative Judaism (I think) you would be considered automatically Jewish, since Judaism is passed through the maternal line. However, the Orthodox do things differently.

 

I have to see if it were a legal (documented) conversion, but I don't believe he was Orthodox, and it would not be counted as a conversion if it wasn't. But..I'm all prepared to do as Charlotte (Sex In the City) did if it's a go.

[Storyrider]

I have to see if it were a legal (documented) conversion, but I don't believe he was Orthodox, and it would not be counted as a conversion if it wasn't. But..I'm all prepared to do as Charlotte (Sex In the City) did if it's a go.

Well, if your grandmother converted, your mother's parents were both Jewish, so she was not half. She was fully Jewish, but you're right, maybe not according to the Orthodox viewpoint.

 

Just keep in mind it won't be all tied together neatly like on TV. Keeping kosher and shabbat is really hard work week after week, especially if you're doing it for someone else and your heart isn't in it.

[HeatherK08]

Well, if your grandmother converted, your mother's parents were both Jewish, so she was not half. She was fully Jewish, but you're right, maybe not according to the Orthodox viewpoint.

 

Just keep in mind it won't be all tied together neatly like on TV. Keeping kosher and shabbat is really hard work week after week, especially if you're doing it for someone else and your heart isn't in it.

 

I know, I'm already reading up on all the 'rules'...

 

I think in the beginning we would either share shabbat with another family, or maybe he would still observe it with her and the kids until we get comfortable doing it together.

 

But, it's really important to him, and there are some things in my life that require alot of understanding, and he has been willing to read up all about it and help me through it. I want to do the same for him.

[phoenixgirl]

Heather, I just want to say that your posts are really encouraging. I'm new here and know I need to start complete NC. I haven't gone into my story a whole lot but it seems really similar to yours, even though my MM is closer in age to me and we don't have the religious issues... the emotional issues, though, seem to be the same and your level of insight and introspection (wisdom) are helpful to me. I just wanted to say thank you for sharing.

[HeatherK08]

Heather, I just want to say that your posts are really encouraging. I'm new here and know I need to start complete NC. I haven't gone into my story a whole lot but it seems really similar to yours, even though my MM is closer in age to me and we don't have the religious issues... the emotional issues, though, seem to be the same and your level of insight and introspection (wisdom) are helpful to me. I just wanted to say thank you for sharing.

 

I'm sorry because I know you're going through alot...we all are.

My NC is a little different because the MM knows what it's all about and why it's happening, he knows the psychology of the whole thing (having his own therapist and seeing two marriage counselors). So I feel a bit more comfortable knowing that he knows and what I'm expecting. I think that any move we make that makes us feel like we might 'lose' them, should be seen as a sign that it's not really meant to go anywhere. If you're both on the same page, you should be able to argue with them, have rights of your own in the R, not just be all about his 'issues.' If you don't have that, then what do you really have? A one way caring and understanding relationship...

 

Am looking forward to hearing about your story.

[phoenixgirl]

I posted quite a bit about it in my "I'm new here" post.

 

I'm realizing that for the sake of my sanity, I HAVE to implement full NC. I want to say that it will only be until he gets a divorce; but I feel in my heart that he will choose to go back to her... and I have to get to a place where I'm okay with that. I don't have a choice BUT to be okay with that, huh? Because I can't choose for him. I can only choose to live MY life and in a healthy way - with or without him. Because I'm not willing to continue being the OW.

 

And he's pretty clueless as to the psychology of the matter. He would never consider counseling, even though he understands why I go for myself.

[HeatherK08]

I posted quite a bit about it in my "I'm new here" post.

 

I'm realizing that for the sake of my sanity, I HAVE to implement full NC. I want to say that it will only be until he gets a divorce; but I feel in my heart that he will choose to go back to her... and I have to get to a place where I'm okay with that. I don't have a choice BUT to be okay with that, huh? Because I can't choose for him. I can only choose to live MY life and in a healthy way - with or without him. Because I'm not willing to continue being the OW.

 

And he's pretty clueless as to the psychology of the matter. He would never consider counseling, even though he understands why I go for myself.

 

Just read your thread.

 

A few things

1) He's probably not mature enough to sort this all out. If they're not in counseling, and he's not in counseling...Being married 6 or 7 years is about when the divorce threats start, and all this passive aggressive behavior kicks in because they haven't been working on their R, just hoping that it will get better. There's probably a few more years or bickering for either one of them to make up their minds.

2) Don't discount his feelings for you. You're going to hear alot of 'oh he's stringing you along', etc., and how 'they all sound the same'. The truth is most people in the same situations 'sound the same', if you stub your toe you say 'ouch' right? or curse? like most people - we don't go carrying around scripts for that. I'm sure he was genuine at the time he has said those things, but the truth is, he's not free, he's not available to you..to give you a real relationship. I'm guessing you really value his friendship...that's what gets us.

3) Let him know why you're doing what you're doing - going all "don't ever talk to me unless you're divorced" IS an ultimatum, and if you've ever had any experience with people giving you those, you know you'd run as fast as you can the other way. Tell him the real reason: you're in too much pain from his indecision. That you guys deserve a real shot, and this isn't it, but that you're hoping that it can happen and you'll be there when he's ready...then give him the space to figure it out.

4) If he does go back, he'll have no choice but to deal with reality (without the cushion of you being there for him) and, if things are really bad between them, he just might realize it's not worth it anymore to stay...he can't do that if he knows you're available to make him feel better. Tell him that, fill him in on the psychology...then you both have the right information to make the best deicsions.

Good luck to ya...and there are other reeeally great guys out there, now you know what to look for with out the attachment

[phoenixgirl]

THANK YOU.

 

I'd been hesitating with the thought of giving him that particular ultimatum - "don't contact me until you have the divorce" - even though that's what someone else on another discussion board (that I have since left) was telling me to do. He's simply NOT ready to make that decision one way or another. And I DO believe him when he says he loves me. I've given him "space" before but he always came back to me... and I always let him. The trick will be in following through with the NC, not letting him use me as a mattress - *especially* when/if he goes back to her.

 

Gah, I wish I could just BOTTLE you wisdom and carry it with me all over the place. Is there a way to print out this discussion?

[LOVE DAISIES]

Hi PG.

I am with you all the way here.

 

I have said it ALL before....and like you, end up caving in with the NC.

One day...it just made sense that I NEED to just STOP. Don't tell him what I'm doing.It serves no purpose, but to keep it perpetuating. Talking about it gives HIM a chance to talk me into staying....ugh. No...I just STOPPED contact. I know it's been a couple weeks...and of course emails from him, I have not responded to. it is hard. But I think he knows I am serious this time. Actions DO speak louder than words.....but...guess what? I feel calmer, more in control.I miss him..but it does NOT outweigh the clarity and sanity I have regained....and even MORE important......He is not saying the words I WANT and NEED to hear...at least not yet..and until I do then I can and will ONLY assume he has chosen THAT life over me.I am ok with that.I truly am...and THAT is what it's all about.

[jton30]

I'd been hesitating with the thought of giving him that particular ultimatum - "don't contact me until you have the divorce"

 

I've avoiding that same tack since - as has been said - it's a dreadfully simplistic approach to a very complex situation. My MW has enough extortion/head games/ultimatums/dysfunction at home that piling on with even more demands will do nothing but frustrate the both of us.

 

I'm in line with Heather's approach. I've gone NC a few times and my explanation has been that I just can't sustain the kind of committed and serious relationship we've developed while still being subordinate to everything else that consumes her life (and emotions).

 

I tell her it has nothing to do with how much I love her or want everything with us to work. It has to do with the serious issues she has in her marriage and the fact that I'm not in a position to help her through them.

 

I know in her heart and in her head she wants to leave. But there is indeed deep psychology at play. My problem is - and has been - her inability to start down the path. I don't expect things to fall into place overnight - or even within the year. But without taking that first step, there will never be a second, or third.

[HeatherK08]

THANK YOU.

 

I'd been hesitating with the thought of giving him that particular ultimatum - "don't contact me until you have the divorce" - even though that's what someone else on another discussion board (that I have since left) was telling me to do. He's simply NOT ready to make that decision one way or another. And I DO believe him when he says he loves me. I've given him "space" before but he always came back to me... and I always let him. The trick will be in following through with the NC, not letting him use me as a mattress - *especially* when/if he goes back to her.

 

Gah, I wish I could just BOTTLE you wisdom and carry it with me all over the place. Is there a way to print out this discussion?

 

Mine also left his house, for about a month until we had a huge argument and he went back - because it's comfortable, that's the bottom line. Plus, him leaving was an impulsive decision and we had only been together for 3 months. I didn't expect him or ask him to do any of those things. I know he's not ready to do all of that now either, but how can he resolve the situation if he has to R's going on at once? He keeps telling me he's working as fast as possible to make a decision, but feels that either way people he loves are going to get hurt....I almost wish we could have just stayed friends until he figured it out, but he told me that at the time we started talking he was well on his way to just accepting that his marriage was not going to make him happy, and that he was going to look for other things in life (like exercising, reading, hobbies) to fill that void, that he wasn't looking to have an A, he hates it, etc.

 

I don't know why your guy has moved out and now wants to go back...so I think this is a crucial time for NC so he can really understand that if he makes that decision, to go back, he'll have to deal with his marriage, with no escapes. Until that happens, he'll sit on the fence and take you with him for as long as possible. Don't let it get to the point where you start hating and/or resenting him. Take what he gave you and cherish it, if you hang onto it the way it is, it will deteriorate (your respect for him).

[HeatherK08]

I've avoiding that same tack since - as has been said - it's a dreadfully simplistic approach to a very complex situation. My MW has enough extortion/head games/ultimatums/dysfunction at home that piling on with even more demands will do nothing but frustrate the both of us.

 

I'm in line with Heather's approach. I've gone NC a few times and my explanation has been that I just can't sustain the kind of committed and serious relationship we've developed while still being subordinate to everything else that consumes her life (and emotions).

 

I tell her it has nothing to do with how much I love her or want everything with us to work. It has to do with the serious issues she has in her marriage and the fact that I'm not in a position to help her through them.

 

I know in her heart and in her head she wants to leave. But there is indeed deep psychology at play. My problem is - and has been - her inability to start down the path. I don't expect things to fall into place overnight - or even within the year. But without taking that first step, there will never be a second, or third.

 

Alot of people want to believe that the MM/MW can't start down that path because they just don't want to. The fact is, a D is scary. I was separated from my xH for 2 years before we started the process. I was tempted to have an A with a coworker of mine and could have easily used him as an excuse for a way out, but the truth was, I wasn't happy in my M and I had to face that decision to end it. You would think that as much as you come to hate someone, that you would have all this motivation to end it, plus if you have someone wonderful who wants to be with you after, then wow - it should just get you out of the door...but that's not realistic. There are other things that make us hesistate: the logistics of daily living (M's make things convenient); finances; worrying about attorneys fees; how will the inlaws/friends react; the kids; who will live where; feelings of failure; feelings of mourning the R - it can be overwhelming and yes, alot of support is needed.

 

I think just letting them know, that generally you'll always hope to be together, and that it's a hard sitation to cope with so you need some time away, etc is a good idea. I would also tell them that a year (depending on the complexities of the situation) is a good enough time to wait, after that I think we are just fooling ourselves. The person has already gotten used to us being there, they need to feel some sort of loss in order to know we won't be waiting forever.

[Gwyneth]

No offense, Gwen, but then why didn't the script apply in YOUR situation as well?

 

You would have avoided the sitaution you're in today if you'd have recognized that he was following the script to a T (and listened to the advice here of those who did).

 

I know that hindsight is 20/20. But I don't understand how someone who's known how this all works out then proceeds to get involved in an affair herself?

 

I don't buy the "we couldn't help ourselves" defense. It was a CHOICE...and you discussed your choices here on LS...what prevented you from making the RIGHT choice then?

 

I wasn't in a R with the MM--that's the Fine difference. I wasn't fooling myself into thinking he'd leave the W for me--that wasn't even an option for me. I felt he should have left her for himself since he was "so miserable." I have stated here from the start that my intentions with him were not long term--I was in this A as a platonic type of thing--I wasn't falling in love. He is the one that became carried away and developed intense feelings, not me.

 

I was the man in this R

[Owl]

Gwen...I grant you didn't start out with a "romantic" relationship with MM...but most people don't. It STARTS as a friendship, then progresses to more.

 

Yours started platonic, and then progressed to the physical. While it wasn't romantic FOR YOU...it apparently was for him in some fashion.

 

But this is all still "script" in how it progressed. And I don't understand how you let it progress..."knowing the script"...and still feel that you were somehow an innocent bystander/taken advantage of/"just happened"?

 

Heather, I'm curious if you are considering converting to Judaism because its what you truly believe...or if you're considering doing it ONLY because it'll let you be with MM?

[John Who]

Ok some advice from a xMM here,ok women are you listening pay attention.

 

All MM lie to you OW we say what you want to hear.

 

Just see for yourself in the post here all the same sh-t right?

 

Just look at the stats chances are your going to get dumped a MM will keep you around for as long as you allow him.

 

In my case my W thre me out i did not want to be with ow,i thought maybe i did,but as soon as my wife found out my mind changed and i seen the truth.

 

Can't you see we are such great liars that we even fool ourself in thinking we may have feelings for the ow.

 

But hey if you ow are happy with mm being forced to be with you after wife dicovers affair and throws us out,thats fine.

 

Take my advice you ow are an easy piece of as-,all we have to do is say i love you and put down wife and our marriage and you get happy.

 

If you respect yourself and did not allow us to do this to you we wouldnt get away with it,remember we can only do what you let us get away with ,which is pretty much anything.

 

I know i'm being harsh,but it's the truth

[OpenBook]

If you respect yourself and did not allow us to do this to you we wouldnt get away with it,remember we can only do what you let us get away with ,which is pretty much anything.

 

Y'know John, for somebody whose posts have completely flamboozled me up til now, you have hit the nail squarely on the head. Thank you for "saying" that out loud!!

[John Who]

Hey im sorry openbook,but it's the truth from the MM point of view.

 

These ow cry about how they are heartbroken well surprise you were screwing a mm,did they think they were going to run off into the sunset.

 

I know first hand i was the cheat MM biggest mistake of my life.

 

Just because i posted this does not change how i feel and me being sincere about loving and wanting to get back with my wife.

 

Ever heard of tough love?

 

I told her the truth what most MM think of the OW,i know it may hurt,but it is what we really think.

 

I'm not just talking from expierence i know many other MM that feel the same way.

[OpenBook]

I told her the truth what most MM think of the OW,i know it may hurt,but it is what we really think.

 

I'm not just talking from expierence i know many other MM that feel the same way.

 

I've held this theory in the back of my mind, that on some level the MM loses respect for the OW who is willing to accept so little from him, and that's the reason why the vast majority of MM-OW relationships do not work out. He doesn't see any reason to treat her with the respect she deserves, or give her a higher place in his life, when she has already agreed to enter this kind of relationship with him. (Of course, there are always exceptions to this! But I think this is generally what happens in the vast majority of cases.)

 

By the same token, however, the BS's reluctance to take back the CS may also be related to this same lack of respect. If she takes him back, she suspects that he'll figure SHE'S SOMEHOW LETTING HIM GET AWAY WITH IT, and will likely cheat on her again at some point in the future... because of that respect factor, even though he may not be consciously aware of it.

[John Who]

Openbook that is exactly right.

 

I know i disrespected my M when i had the A,and of course the ow who i did not respect.

 

We don't even respect them enough to tell them the truth,sorry to say this but yes mm play with the ow's emotions and at times we even start to believe our own lies.

 

Which is why some MM may think they might be falling for the ow,give him a huge shot of a dose of reality and he's cured.

[jton30]

I would also tell them that a year (depending on the complexities of the situation) is a good enough time to wait, after that I think we are just fooling ourselves. The person has already gotten used to us being there, they need to feel some sort of loss in order to know we won't be waiting forever.

 

In my own case it's been an on and off 3 years punctuated by some several month periods of NC. Generally at the point I've started to move on, she reaches a breaking point at home and slowly slides back into my life. The last two times I've been willing, but I've told her that the next time is the last time. The biggest problem is that we're slowly losing credibility with each other. Me losing the credibility of being sincere about moving on and she in being able to move on from her M...

[HeatherK08]

Welllllllllllllllllllllll

 

I broke down and went to see his therapist. He had been calling and emailing and being downright pitiful. Then he came up to see me (at work, we work at the same company) without permission and I felt trapped and angry that he did that. So I called her as per our prior agreement that if we were NC but needed to know how the other was doing we would talk to eachother's therapists. She was excited to meet me for the first time and couldn't say more wonderful things about him and how he feels about me. That his marriage really is in a neglectful and sad state and has been for a long time. That the religion really does mean alot to him and that he's very very scared. She said she couldn't tell me what to do but could I see a life with him? (yes!!) and she had a look in her eyes that told me that it was mine if I wanted it.

 

He was upset that I talked to her instead of him, got a little angry, sent me a few emails and then I broke down and responded. He came over Sunday and that's the end of NC for now. I missed him terribly but didn't see any other way besides letting myself go crazy to get through this. The therapist also said I may need to get more of a plan together the next time I go NC because she thinks it might force him to choose and if she knows about it she'll be able to help him. So I told her if by August (their anniversary time) he hasn't made a decision I HAVE to go NC because I just can't live through them going away together, etc. She said that would give me and him a good 10 months since this started to get to know eachother and will give him a better picture of where he stands with me (she said he's terribly afraid that I'll never talk to him again and he'll lose me forever). If I have to go NC in August I'm going to take a week off and go on vacation and really let him have it before I leave so he'll know I'm serious. For now I'm putting on my cynic hat and taking it one day at a time. And still planning on dating if a nice one comes my way, gotta keep it all in perspective, can't lose myself in this!!!

[whichwayisup]

By being back in contact with him will just enable him to stay and not decide what to do. Nothing has changed...

 

Stick to the NC now and don't talk to his T anymore. He shouldn't be talking to yours either...That makes no sense because if he is at home trying to either fix his marriage or decide if he should end it, he can't hear from you and have you in his life.

 

Use the NC to detach yourself. Definately go out on dates and enjoy yourself too!

[Owl]

Yep...this isn't progress. He just successfully postponed making any kind of decision or action for nearly the rest of this year!!!

 

I never did see a response to my question, btw.

 

Are you considering changing your religion to Judaism because that's what you believe, or because that's what HE believes and its the only way that the two of you can OFFICIALLY be together?

[whichwayisup]

Are you considering changing your religion to Judaism because that's what you believe, or because that's what HE believes and its the only way that the two of you can OFFICIALLY be together?

 

I would hope that he'd be long divorced before she switches her religion for him. Would be totally insane to do it now. Besides, he should be leaving his marriage because he feels it's not working not because someone is waiting in the wings...(That's why NC is so important Heather.)

[nadiaj2727]

Welllllllllllllllllllllll

 

I broke down and went to see his therapist. He had been calling and emailing and being downright pitiful. Then he came up to see me (at work, we work at the same company) without permission and I felt trapped and angry that he did that. So I called her as per our prior agreement that if we were NC but needed to know how the other was doing we would talk to eachother's therapists. She was excited to meet me for the first time and couldn't say more wonderful things about him and how he feels about me. That his marriage really is in a neglectful and sad state and has been for a long time. That the religion really does mean alot to him and that he's very very scared. She said she couldn't tell me what to do but could I see a life with him? (yes!!) and she had a look in her eyes that told me that it was mine if I wanted it.

 

He was upset that I talked to her instead of him, got a little angry, sent me a few emails and then I broke down and responded. He came over Sunday and that's the end of NC for now. I missed him terribly but didn't see any other way besides letting myself go crazy to get through this. The therapist also said I may need to get more of a plan together the next time I go NC because she thinks it might force him to choose and if she knows about it she'll be able to help him. So I told her if by August (their anniversary time) he hasn't made a decision I HAVE to go NC because I just can't live through them going away together, etc. She said that would give me and him a good 10 months since this started to get to know eachother and will give him a better picture of where he stands with me (she said he's terribly afraid that I'll never talk to him again and he'll lose me forever). If I have to go NC in August I'm going to take a week off and go on vacation and really let him have it before I leave so he'll know I'm serious. For now I'm putting on my cynic hat and taking it one day at a time. And still planning on dating if a nice one comes my way, gotta keep it all in perspective, can't lose myself in this!!!

 

Hi Heather. I agree with WWIU that talking to his therapist makes no sense. Some therapists are very biased and some are just bad therapists. If she is taking this active of a role in his life, I believe she is not a good therapist. But that is just my opinion of course. If you told her about how he's been acting lately -- showing up where you work and making you feel trapped and angry -- she should see that he is not right for you the way things are now, that his actions are making you upset. But she might be too biased to see that. And her opinions on his sad and neglected marriage... they all come from him too. She seems really overly biased to me.

 

I think sometimes some MMs have a narcissitic personality and they are really good at manipulating others and getting people on their sides. I am not saying yours is like that, it's just a possibility. My MM's therapist LOVED him and was so one-sided... when I went out to a club with my girl friends and he got upset and jealous (of course he was invited but he was MARRIED so he couldn't go and be seen out with me), his therapist told him that maybe I was overweight when I was young and now I like to dress up and go out and have guys admire my body. I was like ummm NO I have never been overweight and even if I had been that has nothing to di with it... I am 26 years old and my friends and I go out on the weekends, she has no right to theorize about me when she doesn't even know me. In fact she should be focused on why it's bothering YOU, as a 47-year-old married man so much that the supposed "love of your life" is out and would rather be with you if she could be, yet you still can't trust her. And then when I told him it was killing me to stay with him when he still wasn't making any moves to get divorced, he told me his therapist didn't understand why I was leaving and that she completely "agreed" with him that he was NOT married because he doesn't "feel" married in his head. He said she wanted to talk to me and explain this to me and would I go see her with him. I said "NO, she sounds just as messed up as you, and you completely have her wrapped around your little finger like you used to have me... but not anymore, good bye, go get sympathy from your therapist, she seems to be in love with you and brainwashed by you even more than I am."

 

And guess what, after I broke it off and he told me he thought "maybe there was a reason I couldn't file for divorce... maybe I should try to work things out in my marriage not that your'e gone", I said, "what happened to you not being married anymore because you didn't feel married?", and he said "I was wrong, you were right, I was still married." (Oh really Sherlock). I said, "was your therapist right?" and he said "No, she was wrong too, and now I see that she's trying to convince me I was never happily married and that I should get a divorce... I think she is way too biased and I need to change therapists." (Um no you were just so good at convincing people of your bullsh** that she believed you and now she has to admit she was wrong to be so convinced by her patient or she has to keep going along with what you convinced her was true...)

 

Anyway. All of that to say that from experience, let him deal with his therapist, whatever her biases or non-biases, and you deal with your therapist.

 

His therapist is there to help him, not you. I don't think it's helpful for YOU to talk to her, because all she is doing is telling you or influencing you to be with him when obviously you're not sure if that's the best thing for your right now. I also don't think it's a good idea for you to let him talk to you YOUR therapist... that is supposed to be your personal private space, don't let him invade it. Let your therapy be about YOU, not him and not him and you. (In this sense it is pretty natural and good for a therapist to be "biased"... towards their patient and their patient's recovery... but NOT to this point of involvement with other people in the patient's life).