Just Started NC Today

[HeatherK08]

I would hope that he'd be long divorced before she switches her religion for him. Would be totally insane to do it now. Besides, he should be leaving his marriage because he feels it's not working not because someone is waiting in the wings...(That's why NC is so important Heather.)

 

He had already (two years before he even knew me) decided that is marriage wasn't working. He had made the decision to derive his happiness from other things - his kids, work, exercise, reading - because in his religion, there's no getting divorced usually. That's not the issue here. The issue is does he divorce and live with the guilt of dishonoring his family in the religious community.

 

Anyways, I'm not saying I disagree with either of you - however I'm not ready to go NC completely - I've only been seeing him for 4 months and that's not long enough for me to really know him, or him me, to make any decisions (convert or not). I need more time to feel this out.

 

I have a phobia condition that prevents me from travelling anywhere outside of my city. I told him about it and told him that if he wanted to be with me, he'd have to be understanding of it, and although I'm trying to work through it, there's a possibility it might never change. Does he WANT to live with that? No. WILL he? Yes, if he loves me and wants to be with me. Do I WANT to be religious (yes, but not to the extreme), WILL I be religious? Yes, if I want to be with him and take part in his heritage.

[MimiMe]

People can block im/emails etc., doesn't matter, if you want to contact someone you will find a way. Besides, we work at the same company. I can go weeks without seeing him, and I am QUEEN of ignore. Once I shut down it takes a lot to get me back. He knows it. He agreed so quickly also because he sees my pain, and he knows this is wrong.

 

 

What like 4 days Queen of Ignore?

[Owl]

I would hope that she wouldn't switch her religions for him...her beliefs should be HERS...not his. If her beliefs have changed...then GREAT...make that change 'formal'. But changing your religion, your beliefs...just so you can "have someone"...especially changing into such an orthodox one...that's directly against the beliefs that you're now changing over to.

 

If Heather makes her choice to do so, that's her choice. I'm simply hoping that she's giving this particular aspect a LOT of deep, hard thought.

[Owl]

Do I WANT to be religious (yes, but not to the extreme), WILL I be religious? Yes, if I want to be with him and take part in his heritage.

 

I'm not talking about 'being religious'. I'm talking about what you BELIEVE.

 

Being religious is meaningless...what you believe is what counts.

 

Are your BELIEFS the same as his?

[nadiaj2727]

He had already (two years before he even knew me) decided that is marriage wasn't working. He had made the decision to derive his happiness from other things - his kids, work, exercise, reading - because in his religion, there's no getting divorced usually. That's not the issue here. The issue is does he divorce and live with the guilt of dishonoring his family in the religious community.

 

Anyways, I'm not saying I disagree with either of you - however I'm not ready to go NC completely - I've only been seeing him for 4 months and that's not long enough for me to really know him, or him me, to make any decisions (convert or not). I need more time to feel this out.

 

I have a phobia condition that prevents me from travelling anywhere outside of my city. I told him about it and told him that if he wanted to be with me, he'd have to be understanding of it, and although I'm trying to work through it, there's a possibility it might never change. Does he WANT to live with that? No. WILL he? Yes, if he loves me and wants to be with me. Do I WANT to be religious (yes, but not to the extreme), WILL I be religious? Yes, if I want to be with him and take part in his heritage.

 

You should be religious, or not, for yourself, not for him. He should get divorced for himself, not for you. Neither of you should be doing anything that causes the other person to have to "change" someone about themselves. I don't see how a relationship can be good unless both people are already whole, happy people before they enter into life with another person. I think that sometimes people (especially women) enter into relationships in order to seek fulfillment, to "save" themselves from themselves, or out of a desire to "save" another person from a crappy situation (which that other person created himself). I think relationships shouldn't be entered for any of those reasons. They should be entered because we want to share our whole selves with someone else that is whole.

 

I think maybe you should just take this time to work on you and yourself. I don't mean to sound harsh, just offer you my advice. This drama will continue as long as you let it. Love yourself more than you love him. Good luck.

[whichwayisup]

He had already (two years before he even knew me) decided that is marriage wasn't working.

 

Then stay out of his life completely and let him decide what is right for him. You only have had the A for four months, how long have they been married? They have alot of history and kids.

[HeatherK08]

Hi Heather. I agree with WWIU that talking to his therapist makes no sense. Some therapists are very biased and some are just bad therapists. If she is taking this active of a role in his life, I believe she is not a good therapist. But that is just my opinion of course. If you told her about how he's been acting lately -- showing up where you work and making you feel trapped and angry -- she should see that he is not right for you the way things are now, that his actions are making you upset. But she might be too biased to see that. And her opinions on his sad and neglected marriage... they all come from him too. She seems really overly biased to me.

 

I think sometimes some MMs have a narcissitic personality and they are really good at manipulating others and getting people on their sides. I am not saying yours is like that, it's just a possibility. My MM's therapist LOVED him and was so one-sided... when I went out to a club with my girl friends and he got upset and jealous (of course he was invited but he was MARRIED so he couldn't go and be seen out with me), his therapist told him that maybe I was overweight when I was young and now I like to dress up and go out and have guys admire my body. I was like ummm NO I have never been overweight and even if I had been that has nothing to di with it... I am 26 years old and my friends and I go out on the weekends, she has no right to theorize about me when she doesn't even know me. In fact she should be focused on why it's bothering YOU, as a 47-year-old married man so much that the supposed "love of your life" is out and would rather be with you if she could be, yet you still can't trust her. And then when I told him it was killing me to stay with him when he still wasn't making any moves to get divorced, he told me his therapist didn't understand why I was leaving and that she completely "agreed" with him that he was NOT married because he doesn't "feel" married in his head. He said she wanted to talk to me and explain this to me and would I go see her with him. I said "NO, she sounds just as messed up as you, and you completely have her wrapped around your little finger like you used to have me... but not anymore, good bye, go get sympathy from your therapist, she seems to be in love with you and brainwashed by you even more than I am."

 

And guess what, after I broke it off and he told me he thought "maybe there was a reason I couldn't file for divorce... maybe I should try to work things out in my marriage not that your'e gone", I said, "what happened to you not being married anymore because you didn't feel married?", and he said "I was wrong, you were right, I was still married." (Oh really Sherlock). I said, "was your therapist right?" and he said "No, she was wrong too, and now I see that she's trying to convince me I was never happily married and that I should get a divorce... I think she is way too biased and I need to change therapists." (Um no you were just so good at convincing people of your bullsh** that she believed you and now she has to admit she was wrong to be so convinced by her patient or she has to keep going along with what you convinced her was true...)

 

Anyway. All of that to say that from experience, let him deal with his therapist, whatever her biases or non-biases, and you deal with your therapist.

 

His therapist is there to help him, not you. I don't think it's helpful for YOU to talk to her, because all she is doing is telling you or influencing you to be with him when obviously you're not sure if that's the best thing for your right now. I also don't think it's a good idea for you to let him talk to you YOUR therapist... that is supposed to be your personal private space, don't let him invade it. Let your therapy be about YOU, not him and not him and you. (In this sense it is pretty natural and good for a therapist to be "biased"... towards their patient and their patient's recovery... but NOT to this point of involvement with other people in the patient's life).

 

Those are all good points. FWIW I had already told him prior to meeting her that 1) he wasn't trusting the process because he was manipulating the situation to make it seem like he was trying to do the 'right' thing by going to marriage counseling and giving them lip service but being with me in the meantime! 2) he needs an analyst, not just a talk therapist, - mine sees right through me and I can be honest with her, a client/therapist relationship can take a long time to build and I'm not sure they ever did it, she seems to voyeuristic for my taste, and 3) He'd probably outgrow her - he's a lawyer and is very good at giving arguments, if you can't see past them he'll glaze over everything all the time - I don't let him do that, I see right through it.

 

But your'e right, and I won't be talking to her anymore.

[HeatherK08]

What like 4 days Queen of Ignore?

 

Oh please, cast stones Mr. Perfect.

[nadiaj2727]

You should be religious, or not, for yourself, not for him. He should get divorced for himself, not for you. Neither of you should be doing anything that causes the other person to have to "change" someone about themselves.

 

Sorry, I made a typo. I meant that neither of you should do something to "change" yourself for the other, nor should you want the other person to have to change something about himself/ herself for you.

 

I also wanted to add, thanks for the update and letting us know what's going on. I understand, kind of, where you're at and I'm not trying to bash you, just give you advice from an third party perspective, which of course you are free to give thought to, follow, ignore, etc. Best wishes.

[HeatherK08]

I'm not talking about 'being religious'. I'm talking about what you BELIEVE.

 

Being religious is meaningless...what you believe is what counts.

 

Are your BELIEFS the same as his?

 

I do know that, better than most, because I was voluntarily 'religious' for a long time, I know what it all entails. He doesn't expect me to BELIEVE it, he doesnt' believe half of it himself.

 

What do I believe? None of us know half of what we're talking about and religion is a human wish to be immortal. Is it gonna hurt me to light a candle and say a prayer? Nope.

[HeatherK08]

You should be religious, or not, for yourself, not for him. He should get divorced for himself, not for you. Neither of you should be doing anything that causes the other person to have to "change" someone about themselves. I don't see how a relationship can be good unless both people are already whole, happy people before they enter into life with another person. I think that sometimes people (especially women) enter into relationships in order to seek fulfillment, to "save" themselves from themselves, or out of a desire to "save" another person from a crappy situation (which that other person created himself). I think relationships shouldn't be entered for any of those reasons. They should be entered because we want to share our whole selves with someone else that is whole.

 

I think maybe you should just take this time to work on you and yourself. I don't mean to sound harsh, just offer you my advice. This drama will continue as long as you let it. Love yourself more than you love him. Good luck.

 

You're right. And we will both need time to work on ourselves. I think I will eventually have to go NC and do that. I'm glad I have a supportive therapist and this board as a reality check. I'm just not ready yet, I can admit that.

[whichwayisup]

Is it gonna hurt me to light a candle and say a prayer?

 

It's alot more than that, it's a certain way of living life. That is, if he traditional.

[HeatherK08]

Then stay out of his life completely and let him decide what is right for him. You only have had the A for four months, how long have they been married? They have alot of history and kids.

 

I'm divorced, have a lot of history with my ex, and we have kids. His gf stepped into the picture when we were married. They've been together for 4 years now, she had nothing to do with the failure of my marriage, nor do I have anything to do with his. We're actually all friends now.

 

Separate issues. He would not be leaving her for me. He makes that clear over and over, and I know if for myself, I didn't cause them to want a divorce for over 5 years, that's between them. But I do agree I eventually will have to step all the way out of the picture.

[Owl]

I do know that, better than most, because I was voluntarily 'religious' for a long time, I know what it all entails. He doesn't expect me to BELIEVE it, he doesnt' believe half of it himself.

 

What do I believe? None of us know half of what we're talking about and religion is a human wish to be immortal. Is it gonna hurt me to light a candle and say a prayer? Nope.

 

If that's how you (and apparently he) feel on the subject, why waste your time with 'religion' at all then?

 

It might hurt you to light a candle and say a prayer...because it'll be a LIE to all those around you that are watching you and listening to you.

 

Why convert to something that clearly you don't believe...and neither does he? What's the reason in doing so? The consequences are as I mentioned...you'll be required to live a lifestyle that you don't value or agree with in your heart...and you'll be judged by those around you when you fail to meet up to those standards that are meaningless to you.

 

I'm also curious...if he's had two years with you already to know that his marriage is bad...why is he needing 10 more months to figure out what he's doing? Why SHOULD you give him more time to make up his mind and take action? Why can't he do it RIGHT NOW?

[MimiMe]

Oh please, cast stones Mr. Perfect.

 

 

Mrs. but thanks to the movement that you belong to, soon to be Ms.

 

Seems like having a mistress is way more emotionally draining and demanding than just being married to the typical W. Jeez, what's the fricking point? who would be crazy enough to deal with all the dramz that you guys come here to post. *****! Either Eli Lilly needs to come up with a specif formula of prozac labeled for your community of OW or these poor MM are going to drive the suicide rate of the charts.

 

[HeatherK08]

It's alot more than that, it's a certain way of living life. That is, if he traditional.

 

I know it is, I'm not completely alien to it. He's modern orthodox jewish - I happen to be jewish myself, just never followed the religion. It's not as far fetched as it sounds, but no it won't be easy.

[whichwayisup]

If you're Jewish already then you don't need to convert. You'll just have to change things in your life (again, that is if he is traditional).

[nadiaj2727]

Those are all good points. FWIW I had already told him prior to meeting her that 1) he wasn't trusting the process because he was manipulating the situation to make it seem like he was trying to do the 'right' thing by going to marriage counseling and giving them lip service but being with me in the meantime! 2) he needs an analyst, not just a talk therapist, - mine sees right through me and I can be honest with her, a client/therapist relationship can take a long time to build and I'm not sure they ever did it, she seems to voyeuristic for my taste, and 3) He'd probably outgrow her - he's a lawyer and is very good at giving arguments, if you can't see past them he'll glaze over everything all the time - I don't let him do that, I see right through it.

 

But your'e right, and I won't be talking to her anymore.

 

I see what you mean completely. It's good that you see this about his therapist.

 

My xMM claimed to be going to MC after I broke off our A just to "go through the motions" so he could tell himself that he really tried before he left (of course never telling her he had an affair). He said that's what he should have done in the first place, gone to MC so he could tell her what was wrong, and give it one last attempt before leaving. Yeah but he didn't because that takes foresight and guts, both of which he lacks. Secondly as you said it's NOT the same now because it's half-hearted and it's without the full truth. He would be telling her what's wrong with what SHE's doing but leaving out the little oops part about leaving her because he was professing undying love and forever happiness with me. Yeah something just doesn't add up there buddy.

 

Sometimes they don't want to be the bad guys and they do things (like completely half-hearted MC just to tell themselves they're still good guys. Yeah right. That obviously doesn't work -- their marriages are only going to get better through counseling if they are honest and dedicated to them and if they try hard with all their energies -- obviously not something they're capable of doing in general, especially with an OW in the picture. (I also remind myself that I had no idea what was really going on in his M, especially after he went back to "see if there was any way to work it out" or his MC -- he could actually be trying to improve his marriage but telling me he was just doing it for closure, because he wanted to keep me on the back burner).

 

Anyway I agree it's a pretty ridiculous thought for MM to go to MC so they can say they "tried" or thy're ending your marriage the "right" way or giving it proper closure or whatever, but never mention the whole story and the part they played in the destructruction of the "sad and neglectful for years" M. I read on here all the time about MMs who go to MC for all these supposed reasons. OWs say each MM is different but I have seen a lot of the same themes over and over and over among all the different MMs, and I think, well, they all sure tend to follow a certain pattern most of the time! They are pretty darn predictable, like with MC for example.

 

My xMM is a lawyer, too (as am I, I should disclose ). Then no wonder I see similarities -- I really do think lawyers have a way of manipulating and twisting things that MMs use to their advantage. I started to see right through my xMM but other people -- I believe his counselor included -- were completely fooled. (PS) I believe his wife sees right through him too and that's why his marriage felt so crappy and she seemed so unappreciative and "neglectful" to him -- he wanted the excitement of a new, easily impressed girl to go ga ga goo goo over every little thing about him and never questioning him, instead of knowing his good and bad sides, in and out, and being able to realize when he's completely bulls***'ing her. I don't think he's capable of a long-term monogamous relationship because he needs someone to think he is God, and after awhile, even someone as crazy about him as I was begins to realize he just *wants* to be God, he's not really God. Then he views her as neglectful and unappreciative and he's off to find the new Miss Easily Impressed.

[nadiaj2727]

You're right. And we will both need time to work on ourselves. I think I will eventually have to go NC and do that. I'm glad I have a supportive therapist and this board as a reality check. I'm just not ready yet, I can admit that.

 

I admire your honesty with us and most importantly with yourself. You will get there. Best wishes.

[HeatherK08]

If that's how you (and apparently he) feel on the subject, why waste your time with 'religion' at all then?

 

It might hurt you to light a candle and say a prayer...because it'll be a LIE to all those around you that are watching you and listening to you.

 

Why convert to something that clearly you don't believe...and neither does he? What's the reason in doing so? The consequences are as I mentioned...you'll be required to live a lifestyle that you don't value or agree with in your heart...and you'll be judged by those around you when you fail to meet up to those standards that are meaningless to you.

 

I'm also curious...if he's had two years with you already to know that his marriage is bad...why is he needing 10 more months to figure out what he's doing? Why SHOULD you give him more time to make up his mind and take action? Why can't he do it RIGHT NOW?

 

He might not believe in all the religious stuff (and he is currently making decisions in regards to his view of orthodox vs. reformed judaism) but he's extremely proud of his heritage. Am I supposed to change that? That's who he is. That's who I love. He wants his children to be raised that way, that's his choice and I respect it. My children won't be going to Hebrew Day school or anything like that, that's my choice and he respects it. Can I share a kosher meal with him on the Sabbath? Why not? It makes him happy, makes me happy to hear a blessing said in my name to spend fmaily time together without doing anything (work, watching tv, etc) how many people complain that doesn't happen in their families? I'm looking forward to it (hypothetically).

 

He hasn't had two years with me. I've known him for 1 year (professionally) and 4 months. Started seeing him 4 months ago. Would you, in the 'normal' dating world, decide to be with someone forever and ever after 4 months of dating? I don't think so!

 

Yes we have alot to figure out - just not right now.

[nadiaj2727]

Mrs. but thanks to the movement that you belong to, soon to be Ms.

 

Seems like having a mistress is way more emotionally draining and demanding than just being married to the typical W. Jeez, what's the fricking point? who would be crazy enough to deal with all the dramz that you guys come here to post. *****! Either Eli Lilly needs to come up with a specif formula of prozac labeled for your community of OW or these poor MM are going to drive the suicide rate of the charts.

 

 

I agree with you that affairs are dramatic and draining and time-consuming and just plain not worth it. I wonder why you spend so much time on this board if you realize that that's what they are? Why not go to a happier board? Just wondering because it sounds from your posts that this board makes you really upset.

 

*Most* people here realize they are in a bad situation and are trying to fix things, or they are here to give advice to others. (Yes, there are some gloaters and some my-s##t-don't-stink-and-being-an-OW-is-the-way-to-go type people but they are easily ignored and not worth fighting with very often because everyone can see right through their posts.) You seem to be here just to say how bad affairs are... well what's the point of saying it over and over? You're either preaching to the choir or no one will accept your advice seriously because you are really mean about it, not at all empathetic. There is no reason to be mean to Heather or use her thread as your personal sounding board, she came here to get opinions and share with us just like most other people here.

 

I'm not trying to tell you to go away, I'm just really wondering what your point is in being so mean to everyone else. Perhaps if you offered constructive advice in a nicer fashion, people would be able to hear what it is you're trying to say?

[MimiMe]

Mortalizing. Don't play with religion... specially one as strong and influential as Judeism. Believers and followers, just dont wake up one day and decide to be this or that. This is a form of life, which molds principals and routines that are followed as mandated by the word of G*d. Yes, you may be a born jew, which you are already with one and a half foot in the door if you decided to follow the religion. It's up to you to live the life of a follower because it fullfills your emptyness of practice or just because it's fabulous but be true to yourself and to the priciples.

 

 

I have a relative that converted into judeism for his gf. Mind you- not being born jewish, was already a matter of "disowning" in his case. Anyway, he converted, changed his whole life style around... got circumsized at the age of 28 *ouch*, and she dumped him 3 weeks later. True Story.

[HeatherK08]

I see what you mean completely. It's good that you see this about his therapist.

 

My xMM claimed to be going to MC after I broke off our A just to "go through the motions" so he could tell himself that he really tried before he left (of course never telling her he had an affair). He said that's what he should have done in the first place, gone to MC so he could tell her what was wrong, and give it one last attempt before leaving. Yeah but he didn't because that takes foresight and guts, both of which he lacks. Secondly as you said it's NOT the same now because it's half-hearted and it's without the full truth. He would be telling her what's wrong with what SHE's doing but leaving out the little oops part about leaving her because he was professing undying love and forever happiness with me. Yeah something just doesn't add up there buddy.

 

Sometimes they don't want to be the bad guys and they do things (like completely half-hearted MC just to tell themselves they're still good guys. Yeah right. That obviously doesn't work -- their marriages are only going to get better through counseling if they are honest and dedicated to them and if they try hard with all their energies -- obviously not something they're capable of doing in general, especially with an OW in the picture. (I also remind myself that I had no idea what was really going on in his M, especially after he went back to "see if there was any way to work it out" or his MC -- he could actually be trying to improve his marriage but telling me he was just doing it for closure, because he wanted to keep me on the back burner).

 

Anyway I agree it's a pretty ridiculous thought for MM to go to MC so they can say they "tried" or thy're ending your marriage the "right" way or giving it proper closure or whatever, but never mention the whole story and the part they played in the destructruction of the "sad and neglectful for years" M. I read on here all the time about MMs who go to MC for all these supposed reasons. OWs say each MM is different but I have seen a lot of the same themes over and over and over among all the different MMs, and I think, well, they all sure tend to follow a certain pattern most of the time! They are pretty darn predictable, like with MC for example.

 

My xMM is a lawyer, too (as am I, I should disclose ). Then no wonder I see similarities -- I really do think lawyers have a way of manipulating and twisting things that MMs use to their advantage. I started to see right through my xMM but other people -- I believe his counselor included -- were completely fooled. (PS) I believe his wife sees right through him too and that's why his marriage felt so crappy and she seemed so unappreciative and "neglectful" to him -- he wanted the excitement of a new, easily impressed girl to go ga ga goo goo over every little thing about him and never questioning him, instead of knowing his good and bad sides, in and out, and being able to realize when he's completely bulls***'ing her. I don't think he's capable of a long-term monogamous relationship because he needs someone to think he is God, and after awhile, even someone as crazy about him as I was begins to realize he just *wants* to be God, he's not really God. Then he views her as neglectful and unappreciative and he's off to find the new Miss Easily Impressed.

 

Hmmmmm. It's a lil harder for me to tell - they were in MC for years before I came along. He said it got them to stop arguing, but the M was still stagnant and that he just made the decision that this is it, this is how M's are, you suffer through them and then you die. He was committed to just living with that. His religion kept him from divorcing without a better reason than that. That's what the therapy was for, to show him that his happiness IS a good reason. Anyway, not my problem, that's his issue.

 

Re the M, his W believes every word that comes out of his mouth, so it's the opposite for us. I know what he's thinking/feeling and I tell him and he looks all shocked like holy crap how could you know that? He was honest with her 4 months ago - while they were in MC, he said I fell in love with someone and I'm seeing her, he moved out - got an apartment and got scared and went back. Since he's been back he hasn't told her he's still seeing me. He says he needs to finish the MC they started so that she knows a D wouldn't be about being with someone else, rather it's that the M doesn't work. He wants her to admit it, but I think he only has so much patience before he just leaves again. I can't say either way what he's going to do, could be 2 years or 3 years down the line that she sees that, and I'm not about to wait it out with him. I don't want him to leave her for me, so every argument we have he can say "I did such and such for you" bull ****!!! No freaking way lol.

 

Anyway, I get asked out all the time, I'm sure between dating and this board I can come to a point where I can go NC and he'll have 6 or 8 or 10 months of being with me to know what it's like enough that if he decides to leave or stay, he'll have had a good basis for comparison, he'll make the conscious and absolute decision and live with it.

[MimiMe]

I agree with you that affairs are dramatic and draining and time-consuming and just plain not worth it. I wonder why you spend so much time on this board if you realize that that's what they are? Why not go to a happier board? Just wondering because it sounds from your posts that this board makes you really upset.

 

*Most* people here realize they are in a bad situation and are trying to fix things, or they are here to give advice to others. (Yes, there are some gloaters and some my-s##t-don't-stink-and-being-an-OW-is-the-way-to-go type people but they are easily ignored and not worth fighting with very often because everyone can see right through their posts.) You seem to be here just to say how bad affairs are... well what's the point of saying it over and over? You're either preaching to the choir or no one will accept your advice seriously because you are really mean about it, not at all empathetic. There is no reason to be mean to Heather or use her thread as your personal sounding board, she came here to get opinions and share with us just like most other people here.

 

I'm not trying to tell you to go away, I'm just really wondering what your point is in being so mean to everyone else. Perhaps if you offered constructive advice in a nicer fashion, people would be able to hear what it is you're trying to say?

 

 

Perhaps you should read other posts of mine... where I joked, goofed, questioned and even got into racial and social debate with *Umh.. I forgot his name. I stumbled across this board by pure coincidence and you guys will def hate the post that directed me to this community as it was well written by a betrayed W. Gun sticking. "So Mean", trust me I am not. If I really said the way that I feel towards women that deliberately get involved with MM and then cry over the spilled milk, "mean" will not be your choice of word. As far as I can remember... I have only referred to the OW who my stbxH ran off with (He really didnt run, he's in jail. LOL) as the 2 cent skank or any other name I may have used, but have not used any form of disrespectful language towards any of the ladies and gents here. Everyone has opinions, some patronize, some disagree, and others relate.

Just like the 99ers here would say... not every situation is the same.

My attitude is bold- not mean, would be no different here or at the real wifes of orange county board ( is there one? lol).

[HeatherK08]

Mortalizing. Don't play with religion... specially one as strong and influential as Judeism. Believers and followers, just dont wake up one day and decide to be this or that. This is a form of life, which molds principals and routines that are followed as mandated by the word of G*d. Yes, you may be a born jew, which you are already with one and a half foot in the door if you decided to follow the religion. It's up to you to live the life of a follower because it fullfills your emptyness of practice or just because it's fabulous but be true to yourself and to the priciples.

 

 

I have a relative that converted into judeism for his gf. Mind you- not being born jewish, was already a matter of "disowning" in his case. Anyway, he converted, changed his whole life style around... got circumsized at the age of 28 *ouch*, and she dumped him 3 weeks later. True Story.

 

Ouch!!! Were they engaged at least?