Lovelybird Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Here are reasons why I think so 1) we need perfect love that only God can give continuely fill into us, so that we can love our spouse unconditionally. that means even at the time when they seem like our enemies we should love them . If without perfect love fill into us continuely, we tend to love them only when they do things for us, and revenge them when they piss us off. If I acknowledge God's love pour into me, then I feel like I can try to love those unlovable folks, if without connect with the love of God, it is difficult to love those unlovable folks who like to beat you down for no reason, I often feel guilty about this though 2) we need supernature power from God to change our spouse to be more like Jesus Christ who loves his bride so much that gave his own life to save her, although the testimonies from couples said that God changed themselves more rather than their spouse, but the result is same, better marriage 3) we need God's supernatural power to change ourselves to be more like Lord and less selfish, and so be a better spouse 4) we need God strenghten us to resist temptation from outside. 5) prayer is a powerful tool to change things Link to post Share on other sites
j_hunt_12 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 The problem with marriages without God is that people tend to be selfish nowadays. People believe that they will not be held accountable for what they do; therefore, when people get disatisfied with a marriage nowadays, they divorce. Christians fair better because they believe they will be held accountable for what they do. Even if the love falls from their marriage, they will bare through it. I think Christians go into marriage with a mindset that this WILL be forever; therefore, it usually does last forever on some level. But non-Christian with TRUE morals also can fair just as well. My (very serious) GF is a devout Christian, I'm not so much, but I do believe somehow that we will be held accountable for what we do, and I do believe marriage is for better or for worse... After I marry her, I will not judge out whether she is worth having as a wife or not, I will simply accept her and stay with her.... I think that is where true love comes from (admitedly, her being a devout Christian helps us both out A LOT). Therefore, stop being so self-serving people. Non-believers can love just as much as believers. They can love just as deeply and for just as long. There are very few true Christians, but those few that are, do just as well as a atheist or agnostic with true morals. IMO morals are morals and people know them no matter what faith they are. And vice-versa, no matter what faith people are, some will also break morals that that they know are just. Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Is this a serious thread? Since when did Jesus have a bride? If this thread is serious then I am going to have to disagree with everything you have written here. The power of prayer has been statistically no affect... So don't waste your time. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?_r=1&oref=slogin Link to post Share on other sites
luvstarved Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I am somewhat inclined to agree even though my own religious background has run from atheist to agnostic to what I now call "generic deist", which is that I do believe that there is something greater than us out there but I do not feel any connection to it. I envy people who have faith and I read lots of books trying to educate myself and have gone to many churches hoping that I would be filled with the power of something greater than myself. But it has not happened. Lovelybird recommended a book on marriage and it is odd for me because it is very much based on faith and prayer (I have read about half of it) which isn't really "me" on the surface, but IS my H on the surface because he does go to church, prays at night, etc...yet in reading the book it feels like I am the one who wants the type of marriage described in it...not my H. He seems very content to live his life and take care of himself and his needs. His spirituality seems to center all around him being better and taking care of himself and he seems to suggest that I should be doing the same for myself. This is not what feels like a marriage to me. I have had a long life and several previous live in relationships and this one is no more intimate or spiritually connected than any others. Sexually we seem incompatible because he seems to only want to satisfy himself and for a long time just used porn and fantasy and masturbation and ignored me completely. Meanwhile, he will not do anything "adventurous". His idea of sexual excitement is doing the same stuff with someone (or thoughts of someone) new...mine is doing new things with the same person...that one special person that you have joined with in marriage. I have gotten plenty of feedback from other men to know that I am not a prude or a dud, quite the opposite...but all of that was about gratification and physical release...and now I want my H to be jazzed about me because I am me, and to want sex with me because I am me... Anyway I just thought it was funny that the way this book on faith described how a marriage should be a true emotional/spiritual/physical/intellectual/sexual union...really described what I want and cannot seem to have. And I am dead sick of how marriage is portrayed as a trap and a sacrifice and boring and giving up fun and excitement for security...it should not have to be that way and seems that it is that way only because people are unwilling or unable to truly open their hearts and minds to the possibility of something much greater. I really don't know why this is, unless it is based on a combination of fear and selfishness. But it sucks if you ask me. Honestly it feels hypocritical of my H to go on and on about how spiritual he is and then to resist fully engaging in a marriage. He would not be different with someone else. He just seems too afraid to be open and honest and too selfish to think about the wants and needs of others...but then, maybe it is his selfishness that he does not want to be open and honest about? That makes sense in a really disheartening way... So I can't help but feel that if God were truly in the picture, then it would be more possible. I know that couples I know who are very religious actually say that the sex is way better than before they found religion because it really is a connection and "lovemaking" vs "getting off". Oh well. I'll keep on trying...Lovelybird, thanks for the book recommendation, I am glad I am reading it... Link to post Share on other sites
milvushina Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 No one saying that other faiths didn't have morals. We were discussing our belief of God in marriages. Morals do exist in all religions and their are standards in most deceit humans, but those who don't have a base for right and wrong don't put much stock in marriage or it's sanctity. Don't get your drawers in a wad. By this do you mean that other faiths/non-faiths do have morals, but don't have anything to base them on? Like they know a difference between right and wrong but can't nail down a reason WHY there is a difference? Maybe that is not what that meant but if so I'm not sure I understand the distinction you made. I think there are plenty of philosophies that explain morality without needing to use something supernatural as a foundation/source of conscience or morality. Sometimes it seems to me that Christians or unwilling or just unable to see any other point of view. I don't know why that is, I feel like I can use my imagination and see the Christian point of view.. and God seems like a good thing to base your morals on, but there are other options just as good. Link to post Share on other sites
Scrivdog Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I dunno. The Chinese don't involve God in their marriage and there's what a billion and a half of them? And we're only 400 million. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Spirituality is important, IMO. Naming it is important to some. I believe all successful relationships have a spiritual component. I would be loathe to define it for anyone other than myself. 12 years of Catholic school here. They didn't get me Link to post Share on other sites
reservoirdog1 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Marriage without God isn't a marriage. It is a joining of two people with common likes, dislikes, goals, and true affection for each other. Sometimes it lasts for awhile, but with issues that should never happen because God like behavior won't let it happen. Oh, rubbish. Marriages that started with church weddings break up all the time. Your faith may be very important to you, and that's wonderful. But simply having faith doesn't automatically make a person good, or any less likely to do awful things that hurt other people. I'm reminded here of priests who molest altarboys. Or the actions of the European invaders during the Crusades. Or the Inquisition. Who said it first? "Every religious war is really just a dispute about who has the better imaginary friend." There are all kinds of people out there who get married in civil unions, or have commonlaw relationships, who stay with each other for life. And church-sanctified unions in which one or both partners cheats or abuses the other partner and the children. "A joining of two people with common likes, dislikes, goals, and true affection for each other" is basically all you need to make a potentially successful union. Putting a religious stamp on it doesn't guarantee anything. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 When I think about the kind of abilities our "God" would have to accomplish the creation of everything we know, I am unable to fathom that he would even think like us. All the things we figure he cares about really are inconsequential. So the morals our churches teach are really just there to lower the drama levels in our lives. Consider the commandments, for one example. Whether you are devout or not, they have merit. Don't steal or kill anyone or you will go to jail. Don't commit adultery because of the huge list of bad things that come with it. Don't lie, it makes all parties involved live in distrust. Don't covet because you will never find satisfaction. Respect your parents because they deserve it and they can make your life really unpleasant if you don't. The rest are there to keep you coming to the church out of guilt and obligation so they can get money out of you for "teaching" you common sense. The one about false idols is good. It can keep you from waking up one day to find yourself standing in line for special kool-aid! These are just things to make your day to day a little less chaotic and yes they can help the relationship you have with your spouse run smoother. Beyond that, I don't see what "God" would care about your marriage one way or the other. I was raised Fundamental Baptist. There is a whole lot of judging and condemnation beyond the common sense. I don't see how it can help anyone in any situation except, if completely successful, keeping people in line. I no longer believe god cares about even half what we assume he does. And as for unconditional love? Its nice in theory, but if it is allowing you to be walked on, hurt, degraded, or feel guilty for finding it hard to love someone who treats you like crap how is it something a perfect god would want from you? That Jesus guy though, he made it real easy for everyone: Do unto others as you would have done unto you. What else is there to worry about? Not much, which is probably why the church keeps so much of his teachings quiet and goes on and on about the guilt and fear elements. Too much Jesus makes the tithing plates empty! Link to post Share on other sites
Kasan Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 There are all kinds of people out there who get married in civil unions, or have commonlaw relationships, who stay with each other for life. And church-sanctified unions in which one or both partners cheats or abuses the other partner and the children. "A joining of two people with common likes, dislikes, goals, and true affection for each other" is basically all you need to make a potentially successful union. Putting a religious stamp on it doesn't guarantee anything. I agree, and I am wondering what the point of this thread is and where you going with it. Am I missing something? Link to post Share on other sites
lovelorcet Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I agree, and I am wondering what the point of this thread is and where you going with it. Am I missing something? My thoughts exactly... Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 When I think about the kind of abilities our "God" would have to accomplish the creation of everything we know, I am unable to fathom that he would even think like us. All the things we figure he cares about really are inconsequential. So the morals our churches teach are really just there to lower the drama levels in our lives. Consider the commandments, for one example. Whether you are devout or not, they have merit. Don't steal or kill anyone or you will go to jail. Don't commit adultery because of the huge list of bad things that come with it. Don't lie, it makes all parties involved live in distrust. Don't covet because you will never find satisfaction. Respect your parents because they deserve it and they can make your life really unpleasant if you don't. The rest are there to keep you coming to the church out of guilt and obligation so they can get money out of you for "teaching" you common sense. The one about false idols is good. It can keep you from waking up one day to find yourself standing in line for special kool-aid! These are just things to make your day to day a little less chaotic and yes they can help the relationship you have with your spouse run smoother. Beyond that, I don't see what "God" would care about your marriage one way or the other. I was raised Fundamental Baptist. There is a whole lot of judging and condemnation beyond the common sense. I don't see how it can help anyone in any situation except, if completely successful, keeping people in line. I no longer believe god cares about even half what we assume he does. And as for unconditional love? Its nice in theory, but if it is allowing you to be walked on, hurt, degraded, or feel guilty for finding it hard to love someone who treats you like crap how is it something a perfect god would want from you? That Jesus guy though, he made it real easy for everyone: Do unto others as you would have done unto you. What else is there to worry about? Not much, which is probably why the church keeps so much of his teachings quiet and goes on and on about the guilt and fear elements. Too much Jesus makes the tithing plates empty! Absolutely BRILLIANT!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Enema Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 (edited) http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/4903.htm http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_20_121/ai_n7069172 1, 2, 3 articles on the first page of google showing that divorce rates among christians are the same or worse than any other group including atheists. Edited February 29, 2008 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 And if that makes all non-believers feel better, I am glad you all feel better, and I still love God:D. People can love god all they want but it does not absolve them from their duties in making a relationship work. Loving god alone is not going to make a relationship stay on track, hard work and dedication will. Link to post Share on other sites
Enema Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 And if that makes all non-believers feel better, I am glad you all feel better, and I still love God:D. Feel free to love god all you want. Just don't let yourself become an offensive hypocrite like the OP, spouting that non-religious marriages are "limited" when it's demonstrably false that he has any effect at all. Link to post Share on other sites
Enema Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 but I won't change what I believe because someone is offended. Your beliefs about marriage are demonstrably false and yet you stick your fingers in your ears and sing like a child who won't admit they're wrong simply because it casts a shadow on your imaginary friend. Willful ignorance is nothing to be proud of. Link to post Share on other sites
Kasan Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Not offending people isn't really one of my goals in life. As I am sure the people who demonstrate no belief or morals don't care if they offend me. I do believe with a spirtiual foundation and a lot of work, that those relationships have a harder row to ho, so to speak. I am not trying to get in a pissing match, but I won't change what I believe because someone is offended. I'm not trying to be offensive here BNB. But how did your spiritual foundation stop your husband from looking outside your marriage? What do you mean by "a harder row to ho, so to speak"? You do realize that by saying the things you do, you engage us in a "pissing match", and I'm not sure why, but I do feel offended. I got married very young in the back yard with the justice of the peace. 25+ years and we are still going strong. We have been to church maybe 5 times in our marriage and that was to attend funerals. So what's your point? Are we doomed to fail? As reservoirdog1 so eloquently put it-- "A joining of two people with common likes, dislikes, goals, and true affection for each other" is basically all you need to make a potentially successful union. Putting a religious stamp on it doesn't guarantee anything." Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 And as far as his cheating goes, God still gives each of us free will. Mr. Messy chose to cheat and God laws gave me the out to bigger better blessing as long as I keep him first. I live by the bible, not some so called ruler of a congregation. I hope this clarifies things for you. But the Bible says that even if your husband puts you away, you are committing adultery to lay with anyone else and anyone willing to lay with you is also committing adultery. Of course there are also parts of the bible that questions the cleanliness or holiness of marriage entirely and suggest perhaps it would be better if we all just kept our paws off ourselves and everyone else to begin with, but hey! - pick and chose right? Link to post Share on other sites
pricillia Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 God has nothing to do with a good Marriage. That is my belief. Why does God have to be there, what about love understanding and passion. God should also stay out of the bedroom. Link to post Share on other sites
sally4sara Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 It does say that, but it still says otherwise later. So very hard to know which is the right one, yeah? The point being that using the bible to make your relationship work can sometimes be as helpful as a zodiac chart or ouija board. Tarot cards. We pick the ones we like and fit our situation! Link to post Share on other sites
Obama08 Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 (edited) It's so nice having been raised agnostic by one parent. I sure don't feel like I'm missing out. In fact I feel like I dodged a bullet sometimes. Gotta tell ya, life without god can be pretty awesome folks. I can say what I really think, drink what I wanna drink, smoke what I wanna smoke, have sex with who I wanna have sex with, love who I want to love, and as long as I don't screw anybody over and remain generally decent to people I can live pretty much care free. I highly recommend trying it. I've been doing it for 28 years and they have been a great 28 years, and I have a feeling when I'm older I'll be able to look back on life with zero regrets. If I had a philosophy it might be "What would the Beatles do?" As for marriage- I don't see what it has to do with God at all. It's about the two people involved. If their both religious that's great. Like a couple that'r both totally into baseball. It's good to have similar interests, but beyond that... Meh. I suppose Christmas wouldn't be near as exiting if it weren't for Santa Clause. I can dig it. Edited February 29, 2008 by Obama08 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Lovelybird Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 I am somewhat inclined to agree even though my own religious background has run from atheist to agnostic to what I now call "generic deist", which is that I do believe that there is something greater than us out there but I do not feel any connection to it. I envy people who have faith and I read lots of books trying to educate myself and have gone to many churches hoping that I would be filled with the power of something greater than myself. But it has not happened. Lovelybird recommended a book on marriage and it is odd for me because it is very much based on faith and prayer (I have read about half of it) which isn't really "me" on the surface, but IS my H on the surface because he does go to church, prays at night, etc...yet in reading the book it feels like I am the one who wants the type of marriage described in it...not my H. He seems very content to live his life and take care of himself and his needs. His spirituality seems to center all around him being better and taking care of himself and he seems to suggest that I should be doing the same for myself. This is not what feels like a marriage to me. I have had a long life and several previous live in relationships and this one is no more intimate or spiritually connected than any others. Sexually we seem incompatible because he seems to only want to satisfy himself and for a long time just used porn and fantasy and masturbation and ignored me completely. Meanwhile, he will not do anything "adventurous". His idea of sexual excitement is doing the same stuff with someone (or thoughts of someone) new...mine is doing new things with the same person...that one special person that you have joined with in marriage. I have gotten plenty of feedback from other men to know that I am not a prude or a dud, quite the opposite...but all of that was about gratification and physical release...and now I want my H to be jazzed about me because I am me, and to want sex with me because I am me... Anyway I just thought it was funny that the way this book on faith described how a marriage should be a true emotional/spiritual/physical/intellectual/sexual union...really described what I want and cannot seem to have. And I am dead sick of how marriage is portrayed as a trap and a sacrifice and boring and giving up fun and excitement for security...it should not have to be that way and seems that it is that way only because people are unwilling or unable to truly open their hearts and minds to the possibility of something much greater. I really don't know why this is, unless it is based on a combination of fear and selfishness. But it sucks if you ask me. Honestly it feels hypocritical of my H to go on and on about how spiritual he is and then to resist fully engaging in a marriage. He would not be different with someone else. He just seems too afraid to be open and honest and too selfish to think about the wants and needs of others...but then, maybe it is his selfishness that he does not want to be open and honest about? That makes sense in a really disheartening way... So I can't help but feel that if God were truly in the picture, then it would be more possible. I know that couples I know who are very religious actually say that the sex is way better than before they found religion because it really is a connection and "lovemaking" vs "getting off". Oh well. I'll keep on trying...Lovelybird, thanks for the book recommendation, I am glad I am reading it... I am so happy you are interested in the book, thank you. everyone has special encounter with Lord in an unique way. Here are another several books, written by man, talked about marriage in God's way. they experienced winter of marriage, and seeked God's way and able to turn the marriage around, and they are very realistic about marriage, about what difficulty they faced and overcomed. I so love what they decribed about how a man should love their wives, every woman would dream of that maybe you can show your husband these books as well? Sacred Marriage by Gary L. Thomas Covenant Marriage: Building Communication & Intimacy by Gary D. Chapman wish your marriage will turn around and become the one you want Link to post Share on other sites
Author Lovelybird Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 Maybe some people pick and chose I agree with that. But some of us don't pick and chose. I sin daily and I have to repent daily and if possible seek the forgiveness of the person I have sinned against. God is why Mr. Messy is still breathing, because my anger had gotten the best of me. I wanted to hurt him, but if the spirit of God is in you,it is hard to do what you know is wrong. At least I do. I hope that I have shown my children that it is never to late to repent and do better. It's not easy and down right hard to swallow at times, but it is worth it to me. I know what you meant:). although I am not married now, I know how God interact with us and how he teaches us and empower us and influence our relationship with others. When I prayed to God to change certain person, God usually gently point out where I should improve, such as impatience, pride....you name it. and when you realize you are just same as others, just make same mistakes as others, it is much easier to forgive them:p Link to post Share on other sites
Author Lovelybird Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 Is this a serious thread? Since when did Jesus have a bride? Lord's bride is church, and we believers are churches. He loves his churches in a deep way, and that is the way He demands husbands should love their wives. Basically as spouse, we should put focus on the servanthood like Jesus Christ washed his disciples' foot, we should do the same. as for how many Christians really try to be servant to others, we don't know, only God knows. and all of Christians are on the road of discovering and growing, they aren't going to be perfect since the day one they got saved and Lord said "bide in me so you can bear good fruits", it is when we bide in Lord (communicate with Him and obey Him daily), the supernature love can flow into us and through us. there are many good books talking about how to hear from God Link to post Share on other sites
Author Lovelybird Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 I dunno. The Chinese don't involve God in their marriage and there's what a billion and a half of them? And we're only 400 million. according to my personal observation, the Chinese couples who love each other deeply always are drawn to God, the number of believers is increasing amazingly in recent years, the churches are often overfilled Link to post Share on other sites
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