contemplating an affair with a mm/mw?

[Owl]

Owoman, surely you can see the irony in this?? :D :D

 

An OW, who firmly insists that she does NOT believe in marriage or in monogamy...involved in a relationship with a MM that SHE believes will likely result in both marriage and monogamy?

 

I'm curious...what are HIS expectations from your relationship, and how much real "thought" do you think HE'S given to it?

 

Do you think he intends to be monogamous, or expects you to be regardless of what he "says"?

[twice_shy]

I think what we should all know by now is that not everyone subscribes to the same belief sysstem. Affairs are wrong to YOU because you subscribe to a belief that monogamy and sexual exclusiveness is right.

 

Well if one doesn't believe in monogomy, and their partner doesn't either, then there really is no such thing as cheating or an affair in the context of their relationship. People like that who are with each other are a perfect match and they can mess around on each other til their heart's content.

 

but if one person believes in monogomy, and the other doesn't, and that other cheats or has an affair, then it IS wrong. Because you hurt another person.

 

Or is hurting people right, ok, or no big deal in your opinion?

[twice_shy]

No - trying to shove your own morality down everybody else's throat is what's wrong. I actually agree with you - affairs are wrong, for ME. But I've got no room to judge/condemn OWoman or any other woman for the choices they have made in their own unique circumstances.

 

Even if she has hurt someone else in the process? So because OWoman doesn't believe in monogomy, its ok for her to trample over someone else in that fashion?

[LucreziaBorgia]

If I learned anything from years of cheating and helping others cheat by being OW its this:

 

I don't think affairs are wrong just from a morality or belief standpoint. I think they are wrong because having an affair and being an accessory to the affair hurts another person on so many internal levels independently of any belief system or set of morals. The hurt you get from being betrayed and lied to goes deeper than any belief system or morals.

 

It hurts on a purely human level, down to the very core. That is why OW/OM catch so much flack - because they knowingly and willingly help to inflict pain on another person. A pain that no amount of justifications, explanations or denials will touch.

 

I hear plenty of OW/OM saying they don't believe in monogamy, and those same people do a complete 180 when OOW or OOM comes into the picture.

 

Why? Because regardless of whether you believe in monogamy or not - being betrayed by someone you love and trust hurts, and when you are an accessory to that hurt - of course you are going to be hated regardless of how you justify what you did.

[OWoman]

Owoman, surely you can see the irony in this?? :D :D

 

It's giving me sleepless nights - how will I ever look myself in the eyes again?

 

An OW, who firmly insists that she does NOT believe in marriage or in monogamy...involved in a relationship with a MM that SHE believes will likely result in both marriage and monogamy?

 

Well, if I win a million $ on the lottery, I can buy my way in without getting married, but since that's unlikely... marriage is a probability. Sexual exclusivity is a choice, for now. I might feel different tomorrow

 

I'm curious...what are HIS expectations from your relationship, and how much real "thought" do you think HE'S given to it?

 

Do you think he intends to be monogamous, or expects you to be regardless of what he "says"?

 

Plenty of thought, Owl - we've discussed ad nauseam "what it would be like if...". He's likely to be monogamous, yes - though he's not going to say he will be because he doesn't want to put me under pressure to make a similar commitment, against my principles . I think he would be hurt if I took another lover, or lovers, because it would imply to him that he was no longer meeting my needs and that he'd failed in some way. In a sense it would be much easier if I hadn't been sexually exclusive with him, that that expectation of my being so even for a while would not have arisen. And so I worry that it puts pressure on him to "perform", to meet my needs, so that I don't have to look elsewhere for those.

 

Would I be hurt if he took another lover or lovers? Only if he lied to me - the dishonesty would hurt because it would imply to me that he felt he couldn't tell me, that he thought our R was not strong enough to withstand honesty. But I'm cool with the idea - I know I'm far from perfect and there's no way I can meet all of someone's needs, so I have no problem with their needing those augmented elsewhere.

[OpenBook]

Even if she has hurt someone else in the process? So because OWoman doesn't believe in monogomy, its ok for her to trample over someone else in that fashion?

 

She didn't exactly trample. The W cheated herself - she was the OW with her stbxH when they got together in the first place. And she (the W) made the M so miserable, none of his family blames him at all for finding someone else and seeking to end the M with her.

 

There's so many ways to make your partner miserable. The problems in the M don't have anything to do with the OP. I disagree that there's no worse sin than cheating. I think it's just as much of a sin (if not more so) when you wear down your partner's soul on a daily basis.

 

And there's so many MP cheating out there, I'm starting not to believe in monogamy myself. It's a nice ideal, but it just doesn't match with reality. If a MP is disrespecting their M by cheating, I find it very hard to have any respect for the sanctity of the M myself. Why should I go along with "Do as I say and not as my partner does"? When the very person who made the vows is not honoring them, why should anyone else (who DIDN'T make those vows in the first place)?

[Jess-Belle]

I don't think affairs are wrong just from a morality or belief standpoint. I think they are wrong because having an affair and being an accessory to the affair hurts another person on so many internal levels independently of any belief system or set of morals. The hurt you get from being betrayed and lied to goes deeper than any belief system or morals.

 

Exactly, well said.

[Tame]

LucreziaBorgia=- You are right on point with your post. It takes an incredible amount of selfishness to run full speed into an affair after knowing the man's circumstances. At the same time I am a living witness to the struggle to stay away when one's heart and body desires something that belongs to someone else. And here recently I'm learning of some of the reasons it's hard to stay away.

 

I joined this site as a form of therapy- to try to read the stories here and reaffirm what I know to be right because I have allowed myself to develop a crush on a MM. I also joined b/c as someone who has not engaged in an EMA but at the same time knowing its risks it's also therapeutic to warn others.

 

On the dfficulty in staying away:

 

It's interesting, this thought of 'allowing myself to develop a crush.' because I read a book that talks about how desire is formed. Of course it is formed because we see something we like and obsess on how to get it but in the case of EMA's it could very well be that the MM is helping us to cultivate our desire, the same as has likely happened with the women here who find themselves in an affair, particularly with cake eaters (like the one I've met.) Bestowing attention onto a single woman in a way that they know for 100% sure is not being done by SG's is one way to help women cultivate their desire for the MM. (For example: excessive praise with no thought of being looked upon as desperate, monetary or material gifts with no stated intent to receive something in return, etc.) Also the false notion that they are somehow choosing you over their wives when in fact that is not the case is another way to cultivate that desire. The attention MM give can be very addictive, almost like a drug habit that causes withdrawal symptoms when we don't get our fix. And after the A begins they attempt to keep your desire for them burning by telling you lies about their home lives or about things they do with other women when you are not around. Furthermore, it is very difficult if not impossible for the OW to ever really know who the MM is because we always see the person he wants us to think he is. All of us go to great lengths to project a persona that we want other people to buy, that is human nature. However, just imagine that in your sales package you have to factor in the ENORMOUS blow to your 'real life' if your fake life and real life ever collide. Would that not take an extraordinary amount of lying, deceiving and manipulating to pull off the perfect scam? Would it not also be a huge boost to your ego to know that you can teter on the verge of destruction and never actually be destroyed because you are smarter than everyone else? In other words women can allay some of the guilt they feel about participating in an EMA when they realize that their desire was cultivated by someone who likely knew full well what he was doing the minute he approached you. Not all EMA's play out the same way but I've seen and read enough to know that they all follow similar patterns.

 

The price to our soul, mind, body and spirit is not worth it for someone who would likely never be able to give us his last name. There is a song by an artist named Elliott Yamin and the song is called "Train Wreck." It's a song about the inner struggle and turmoil some of us go through when we are fighting to hold on to ourselves in the midst of turmultuous situation. Here are some of the lyrics:

 

Moderator's Note: Due to copyright restriction, lyrics have been removed.

 

So my question is this? Since I already know my A with a MM will lead to a train wreck is he really worth taking the ride?

 

So far my answer has been no.

Edited March 3, 2008 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Song Lyrics Removed

[Jess-Belle]

If a MP is disrespecting their M by cheating, I find it very hard to have any respect for the sanctity of the M myself. Why should I go along with "Do as I say and not as my partner does"? When the very person who made the vows is not honoring them, why should anyone else (who DIDN'T make those vows in the first place)?

 

So then do you feel that the sanctity of the marriage is nullified by the cheating partner?

 

I guess it depends how one looks at it -- one could either look at each marriage as to whether it should be respected on an individual basis... or, one could respect the sanctity of marriage as a whole. In the latter case, one presumably would respect the concept of marriage regardless of whether either marriage partner decides to break their vows.

[OWoman]

She didn't exactly trample. The W cheated herself - she was the OW with her stbxH when they got together in the first place.

 

W was the CS, MM was the (unknowing) OM. Maybe she's changed her views on cheating now she's on the receiving end, but unless she's having a major sense of irony failure, she'll recognise that she doesn't have moral high ground on this one.

 

Quite aside from the abuse.

 

(Tx OB, BTW - was distracted so had forgotten to respond)

[OpenBook]

So then do you feel that the sanctity of the marriage is nullified by the cheating partner?

 

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

[Jess-Belle]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

 

Ah ok, yes that is one way of looking at it.

 

Delving a bit further though, and to include what you said about monogamy and ideals... do you believe that one should maintain ideals based upon what is going on around them (conditional ideals, I guess)? Do you feel it is useless to hold certain ideals that, as you say, don't seem to match with reality as you see it?

[OpenBook]

Ah ok, yes that is one way of looking at it.

 

Delving a bit further though, and to include what you said about monogamy and ideals... do you believe that one should maintain ideals based upon what is going on around them (conditional ideals, I guess)? Do you feel it is useless to hold certain ideals that, as you say, don't seem to match with reality as you see it?

 

No, actually it's the opposite. I hold my own ideals, and they apply only to me. And they do not depend on what anyone else says or believes. For example, I stay away from and refuse to get involved with the MM I'm in love with, even though it is killing me. Because it's wrong for ME.

 

But at the same time, I refuse to judge or condemn others who do get involved with their MM's. Because I've been there, I've walked a mile in their shoes. There are many sides of the story, and I'm only privy to one. It's not my place, or my call, to issue judgments on anyone else.

 

I also bristle (as you have probably noticed!) when I see others mounting that pedestal. But that's a personal issue, and something I'm working to correct.

[Jess-Belle]

No, actually it's the opposite. I hold my own ideals, and they apply only to me. And they do not depend on what anyone else says or believes. For example, I stay away from and refuse to get involved with the MM I'm in love with, even though it is killing me. Because it's wrong for ME.

 

Do clarify something for me though... if you feel that the sanctity of marriage, and whether one should respect it or not, depends on what the marriage partners do, is that not depending one's ideals on something outside of oneself and beyond one's control? In essence, basing one's ideals on what someone else does?

 

Ex. "I respect the sanctity of marriage only if both marriage partners are fulfilling my definition of marriage vows."

 

Also, with respect to your refusal to get involved with MM because it is wrong for you -- is that where it stops? You do not take into consideration causing pain to another person ex. the wife of the MM? If that is the case, how come?

 

Sorry for all the q's -- I just like to know where people are coming from

 

But at the same time, I refuse to judge or condemn others who do get involved with their MM's. Because I've been there, I've walked a mile in their shoes. There are many sides of the story, and I'm only privy to one. It's not my place, or my call, to issue judgments on anyone else.

 

Same here, I've been everything. Betrayed, OW, and most predominantly, a cake-eating cheater. What I've come away from it all is simply, it's wrong to do something that hurts others, and I believe that these situations invariably bring pain to someone. I can't approve of it, actually I can't even say I find it understandable; but I do understand that everyone just has to find out [whatever it may be] their own way.

 

I also bristle (as you have probably noticed!) when I see others mounting that pedestal. But that's a personal issue, and something I'm working to correct.

 

[twice_shy]

She didn't exactly trample. The W cheated herself - she was the OW with her stbxH when they got together in the first place. And she (the W) made the M so miserable, none of his family blames him at all for finding someone else and seeking to end the M with her.

 

That is understood. However I wasn't talking about one particular incident. Just any incident where someone was hurt by this line of thinking that it isn't wrong to have an affair.

[twice_shy]

And there's so many MP cheating out there, I'm starting not to believe in monogamy myself. It's a nice ideal, but it just doesn't match with reality. If a MP is disrespecting their M by cheating, I find it very hard to have any respect for the sanctity of the M myself.

 

If someone is cheating in their M, it isn't the marriage I wouldn't have any respect for, its the person doing the cheating.

 

And its real simple, if someone doesn't believe in monogamy, then for petes sake, don't get friggin' married.

 

And to say that just because so many people are cheating that you don't believe in marriage, well, since so many people abuse drugs, you gonna disrespect your body too and stick a heroin needle in your arm?

 

I mean, with so many people doing drugs, it has to be the thing to do, right?

[Jess-Belle]

If someone is cheating in their M, it isn't the marriage I wouldn't have any respect for, its the person doing the cheating.

 

I feel that this is such an important point. If more people could see a cheater for what he/she really was, a lot more of these situations could be avoided.

 

The problem is that a cheater seems to activate a certain little button in the mind of some OP that sends them into "savior" mode. They then feel compelled to "save" the MP from the big bad BS.

[OpenBook]

Do clarify something for me though...

 

I think I've made my position quite clear. But at the risk of hijacking this thread, I'll indulge you one last time. Do try to understand.

 

if you feel that the sanctity of marriage, and whether one should respect it or not, depends on what the marriage partners do, is that not depending one's ideals on something outside of oneself and beyond one's control? In essence, basing one's ideals on what someone else does?

 

Huh?? Your logic escapes me. You almost sound like you're trying to twist my words around, and fit them into something you can attack. Again, I do not base my own ideals on what someone else does. I have nothing to do with their M. And their behavior has no effect on my own ideals for myself.

 

Ex. "I respect the sanctity of marriage only if both marriage partners are fulfilling my definition of marriage vows."

 

Rephrase that to say: "I respect the sanctity of each marriage only if both marriage partners are fulfilling their own definition of their own marriage vows to each other" -- and you've got my stance in a nutshell.

 

Also, with respect to your refusal to get involved with MM because it is wrong for you -- is that where it stops? You do not take into consideration causing pain to another person ex. the wife of the MM? If that is the case, how come?

 

Nope, I don't take her into consideration at all. I don't even know her, and I have no idea what goes on in their M (nor do I want to, nor do I feel it's any of my business). I don't owe her anything. I don't have to face her in the mirror every morning.

 

Same here, I've been everything. Betrayed, OW, and most predominantly, a cake-eating cheater. What I've come away from it all is simply, it's wrong to do something that hurts others, and I believe that these situations invariably bring pain to someone. I can't approve of it, actually I can't even say I find it understandable; but I do understand that everyone just has to find out [whatever it may be] their own way.

 

I have a feeling that what you're really saying underneath all this is, if you can get everybody to see it the way you do, we'd solve all our problems. And everybody who DOESN'T see it the way you do is just not on the same morally superior level as you. If that's the case, good luck IRL with that attitude.

[Jess-Belle]

I think I've made my position quite clear. But at the risk of hijacking this thread, I'll indulge you one last time. Do try to understand.

 

Huh?? Your logic escapes me. You almost sound like you're trying to twist my words around, and fit them into something you can attack. Again, I do not base my own ideals on what someone else does. I have nothing to do with their M. And their behavior has no effect on my own ideals for myself.

 

Mmmkay, so now you've chosen to get defensive... I can't say I blame you, considering what you're probably used to hearing. I wasn't trying to attack anything, just trying to clear up some confusion in my mind. No need to get snippy with someone who's just interested in hearing your perspective.

 

Rephrase that to say: "I respect the sanctity of each marriage only if both marriage partners are fulfilling their own definition of their own marriage vows to each other" -- and you've got my stance in a nutshell.

 

OK then.

 

Nope, I don't take her into consideration at all. I don't even know her, and I have no idea what goes on in their M (nor do I want to, nor do I feel it's any of my business). I don't owe her anything. I don't have to face her in the mirror every morning.

 

Suppose you inadvertently gave both she and MM an STD. Would that bother you?

 

I have a feeling that what you're really saying underneath all this is, if you can get everybody to see it the way you do, we'd solve all our problems. And everybody who DOESN'T see it the way you do is just not on the same morally superior level as you. If that's the case, good luck IRL with that attitude.

 

I have a feeling you may have delusions of persecution... because what I really feel is, some people may come away with what I have learned, some may come away with something completely different, and some may come away with nothing at all. Nothing's gonna change that. And that's what makes the world go round. Morally superior, lol...

[OWoman]

Suppose you inadvertently gave both she and MM an STD. Would that bother you?

 

Isn't it bizarre how often people ask the OW this? MOST OWs are sexually exclusive with their MMs, and so far more likely to pick up something from MM (or his W, depending on how many partners she has) than the other way round!

[Jess-Belle]

Isn't it bizarre how often people ask the OW this? MOST OWs are sexually exclusive with their MMs, and so far more likely to pick up something from MM (or his W, depending on how many partners she has) than the other way round!

 

What has current sexual exclusivity have to do with one's sexual past? And the fact that many people carry around an STD, symptom-free, totally ignorant of the fact, which can then be spread to whomever, even if condoms are used? And the fact that one need not even be promiscuous anyway to be carrying a quite common STD? Or that fact that HPV cannot be detected by a blood test, it can only be detected once one has an actual breakout, and in the cases of the strains that cause cervical cancer, you can wind up finding out when it's too late? I swear, if people weren't so damn ignorant about these things, then maybe millions upon millions of people wouldn't be herpes and HPV carriers.

 

And I ask, incidentally, because that's what happened to me. After having recently been screened with a clean bill of health, whoops, suddenly I develop a nasty infection. It's funny how the truth is never far behind

 

So I'm curious if an OP who would have been responsible for that in me would actually feel any kind of guilt or remorse. Of course it's likely no one will answer the question, because it's either:

 

1. Try to keep in line with the "I owe the W/SO nothing" mentality and say NO, and appear to be a complete and utter sociopath, or

 

2. Say yes and be forced to admit that yes, what one is doing is indeed wrong because one is endangering the health of another, which really isn't kosher no matter how you slice it

 

It's OK, I understand. Carry on! :bunny:

[OWoman]

I swear, if people weren't so damn ignorant about these things, then maybe millions upon millions of people wouldn't be herpes and HPV carriers.

 

Maybe that's so in your country.

 

I'm on a medical plan that provides, and rewards, FULL screenings for ALL STIs but even if I wasn't, I'd still test regularly and practice safer sex because I owe it to myself, my kids and my lovers. And I demand no less of my lovers.

 

Whether or not I care about their Ws is irrelevant - if I care enough for someone to share body fluids, I need to make sure THEIR life isn't on the line as a result.

[Jess-Belle]

Maybe that's so in your country.

 

I'm on a medical plan that provides, and rewards, FULL screenings for ALL STIs but even if I wasn't, I'd still test regularly and practice safer sex because I owe it to myself, my kids and my lovers. And I demand no less of my lovers.

 

Whether or not I care about their Ws is irrelevant - if I care enough for someone to share body fluids, I need to make sure THEIR life isn't on the line as a result.

 

Yes, it is so in my country. The stats on STDs are absolutely jaw-dropping.

 

If you really are one of those people that get regularly screened and tested and do anything possible to avoid receiving and spreading STD's, then I applaud you for it. There should be many more people like that in the world.

 

But let's be real: there's proof that clearly people like that are not in the majority. And then there are the ones that claim to be that way but are lying. And, I want to make it a fairly important point, HPV cannot be detected by blood test. You either break out in genital warts and they discover it, or, in the strains that can lead to cervical cancer, you just don't know (and the guy remains symptom-free). There are no symptoms for the woman until you're maybe hosed. So then what? Oh and I did I mention that people lie?

 

I think the exchange that occurred in the aftermath of what happened in my situation is pretty bog standard.

 

I break out in a massive infection that has persists for an unusual amount of time.

Bf is desperately scrambling around behind my back, forcing OP to get tested.

OP claims "Gee, I've only slept with 4 people in my life". "Gee, I got tested not too long ago and everything was fine." :rolleyes:

Gee that's funny, from the way my body immediately reacted to your presence in my relationship, I still obviously contracted something from you through my bf, OW.

 

Fortunately, OW did not test positive for anything. But that doesn't rule out HPV. I'm still waiting and hoping that nothing develops and that I don't wind up condemned to a lifetime of having warts burned off me or with cervical cancer.

 

So do you think that's OK? That's really something that someone can justifiably think to themselves, "I owe nothing to the W/SO, I don't have to face her everyday?" Put yourself in the hypothetiocal situation. I'm curious if someone has the guts to answer that.

 

And by the way... even to those who get tested all the time... don't think you're invincible. No one is.

[nadiaj2727]

Having an affair is wrong no matter the circumstance, no matter the outcome- good or bad. Condoning behavior of this kind is also wrong. I think we should all know this by now.

 

We should all know this but some people like to brag about their despicable behavior and think that makes them cool!!

 

In my opinion, those people are the unhappiest people.

[nadiaj2727]

No - trying to shove your own morality down everybody else's throat is what's wrong. I actually agree with you - affairs are wrong, for ME. But I've got no room to judge/condemn OWoman or any other woman for the choices they have made in their own unique circumstances.

 

... until their own unique circumstance involves sleeping with your husband.

 

Come on people, affairs are disrespectful to other people. Even if YOU don't believe in marriage, the people in the marriage do, so by helping to break their marriage vowels you are saying that your beliefs (or non-beliefs) are higher than theirs. You think you can just go around doing whatever you want, thinking only of yourselves, and then you get mad when people get mad at you for that, because they see you for who you truly are.

 

And as for "shoving" moral codes down people's throats... some OW act like they are never wrong, everything they do is right and justified. To me, that is just as much "shoving" of a moral code, or lack thereof.

 

But, whatever, I am wasting my breath. It's obviously pointless to try to explain respect to people who think it's okay to sleep with someone else's committed partner.