Sometimes it does happen...

[Lookingforward]

What an entertaining thread!

 

Firstly, GEL, well done for shouting about your happiness and I wish you happiness and contentment. You're right, affairs and subsequent relationships do happen, and I'm living proof and I'm content.

 

Secondly, I don't appear to be feeling enough guilt about being happy in my situation. Could someone please place a "Download Guilt Now" pop up instead of the ad banner that takes 40 minutes to download on this piece of crap computer?

 

 

ROFL!! too funny, yes we need an "I'm guilty, I'm guilty" icon

[Lizzie60]

Yes sometimes it does happen...

 

It happened to me.. after being the OW for 11 years... (I was patient.. no I was head over heels in love with him).. he moved with me.. after his W kicked him out....

 

We lived together 18 years ... then I left.. I never regretted leaving him.. I should have never met him in the first place..

 

I'm sure we'd still be together if I had not left.. that's this kind of guy..

[Tomcat33]

Or some of us call it just plain decency. A little common courtesy. The upholding of a promise made. There are no "morals" involved in that. It's called personal integrity.

 

Hey look I have as much integrity, and decency as the next guy but sometime sh@# happens. What can you do you can't beat yourself up for your mistakes for an entire lifetime, and like in the case of GEL a mistake or bad choice or whatever you want to call it turned out to be her happiness well then who is anyone to say what is one man's treasure?

 

I say good for you GEL for finding your way and making it work and reaching a point of happiness.

 

As a matter of fact and in tone with this thread it happened to me, he is now D and wants me back and it took him a year to let go and do it right, to make his W understand he no longer wanted to be with her and for him to be fully sure there was no mistaking why he wanted out. He and I still talk on occasio, if I could go into details about all the things I am learning that happened over the last year and what was going though his head while he was there some people would be absolutely shocked. The bottom line is GUILT makes some people act in very negative selfish ways, leading others on .some people stay out of guilt to redeem themselves infront of the BS and to make them realise for themselves that their relationship is just not happening. In my ex's case by staying there she was able to see that the reason he left her was NOT because he had the affair with me but because THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS JUST NOT WORKING. In the year he went back their life reverted back to the EXACT same point where it was years before he met me. he gave it a shot I was entirely out of the picture and it did not work what is he supposed to do torture himself for the rest of his life paying pennance for something terrible he did when he does not love the woman?

 

 

So to those that waited and want to make it work do it, people take time to process things and everyone has their way of dealing with relationships or of letting go or dealing with their guilt of not loving their spouses and betraying them. My happiness comes in knowing that everything he had told me while he was with me ended up being true, he did love me he still loves me, and he definitely did want out, he just went about horribly by complicating his life with me in it and throwing me into his mix. So knowing all this makes me happy because as lost as I felt during that time walking away from that experience and it really made me doubt my power of perception and felt so fooled and betrayed and taken for a ride I now see it wasn't so like that. In the end I realise my power of perception wasn't THAT off, and that makes me very happy indeed. Do I want to get back together with him? I really feel it's too late.

[OldEurope]

Compared with other 18th C alternatives, I reckon he got lucky. How about tending a vegetable garden on some distant shore to feed scurvied sailors, or working as a slave on a plantation, or being the wife of a landless peasant with a horde of children who die almost as fast as you breed them? A Bohemian library sounds a rare treat, and anyway syphilis rots the brain so he's have lived out his end in the fuzzy bliss of his glory days, not even noticing the septic odour around him. The rock star of his generation. Never mind the colostomy bags - the whiff of warm knickers flying past on the stage makes it all worthwhile...

 

Sad isn't it? And I so much prefer another "alternative" view of the 18th century, the one about Enlightenment and the triumph of Reason...OW, you make me feel guilty, sitting here listening to Haydn....

 

The library gig--chez Count Wallenstein, after all--was probably a rare treat. I suspect, however, that the old count got the better whiff of whatever knickers were flying past in good ol' Chateau Dux....The rock star, meanwhile, yes, neither with veggie garden, nor wife -n-kids...but, hey, all those memories!

 

 

OE

[Jess-Belle]

But you see he didn't "move out to think about things", as far he was concerned at the time , that was IT, over, done, game, set , match.

 

You are not going to 'guilt' me into believing it was MY fault LOL

 

Your fault that he moved out? No, that clearly isn't the case. That was his decision based on his relationship with his wife. You're only responsible for getting involved with him and the consequences of that, to him, to his wife, his marriage, and to you, whatever they may be.

 

But it wasn't as over as even he thought it was, was it. And we have no way of knowing what his wife was thinking, which, if you ever have the misfortune of finding out what it is to be in her shoes, is an important part of the equation.

 

So you got what you have now. When someone hasn't severed a relationship completely, there simply is no place for a third party (unless they're happy being the side piece and/or getting tossed aside sooner or later).

 

So think about it, if you will. Say your marriage is having whatever problem and your husband moves out. Say he hasn't served you with divorce papers and YOU, the wife, are at home, presuming perhaps it is not over, perhaps hoping with all your might it is not over. And he ends up coming back, alright. But oh, he was screwing around with someone else while during this hiatus while still married to you, someone who was already building up high hopes of a future with him.

 

Is that cool beans with you?

[consternation]

Hello!

 

I was an active member on this board a couple of years ago.... seems like another lifetime now.

 

The married bloke is now just a distant memory, and it seems incredible to think of how anguished I was at the time. I am now 5 months pregnant and getting married next month to an adorable, wonderful, sexy man who has always wanted to be with me.

 

I doubt there's anything I can say to help anyone. I think that affairs are probably just addictions - when I think of how hard it was to go NC etc, I really think it's like an addiction that is so hard to break. I guess you just need to grow out of it... I also think that people who get involved in affairs often have commitment issues or whatever and it's a way of avoiding or confronting those issues. And to be honest - sometimes I think it's a bit of a drama queen thing.

 

I don't care whether it sometimes works out or not! It's not worth it! Your sanity and self respect are worth more.

 

Consternation

[scaredinlove]

Hey Gel,

 

 

I am happy i stop here today! I am happy for you and I also believe when it meant to be it does happen. It may take years but if you keep following your heart you will get where you belong. Whatever it is.

 

I wish you all the best!Thanks for sharing.

[Lookingforward]

But it wasn't as over as even he thought it was, was it. And we have no way of knowing what his wife was thinking, which, if you ever have the misfortune of finding out what it is to be in her shoes, is an important part of the equation.

 

 

Won't ever happen, sorry - for one thing I don't CHEAT

[Jess-Belle]

Won't ever happen, sorry - for one thing I don't CHEAT

 

What are you talking about -- for you to be in her shoes, you'd be the one getting cheated on, not the cheater

[Lookingforward]

What are you talking about -- for you to be in her shoes, you'd be the one getting cheated on, not the cheater

 

No honey, re-read the posts - SHE cheated on HIM first

 

and he wasn't 'cheating' - he moved OUT

Edited March 6, 2008 by Lookingforward
deleted a line in error

[Jess-Belle]

No honey, re-read the posts - SHE cheated on HIM first

 

and he wasn't 'cheating' - he moved OUT

 

So it's tit-for-tat with you then? If you cheat on a guy (hypothetcially now, no need for the 'it will never happen'), he has the right to turn around and do the same? Well I guess I have seen some people who feel that way.

 

Alright, so if your hypothetical H moved out and, while out there, got involved with another woman. And then, ultimately, came back. Would you, as his wife who he's not yet divorced from, consider that he was unfaithful to you? That's all I'm curious to know.

[Lookingforward]

So it's tit-for-tat with you then? If you cheat on a guy (hypothetcially now, no need for the 'it will never happen'), he has the right to turn around and do the same? Well I guess I have seen some people who feel that way.

 

Alright, so if your hypothetical H moved out and, while out there, got involved with another woman. And then, ultimately, came back. Would you, as his wife who he's not yet divorced from, consider that he was unfaithful to you? That's all I'm curious to know.

 

 

sweetie no, your hypothetical would never happen - if he's gone he's gone - let me spell that for you - G-O-N-E- There would be NO coming back

 

and I did NOT say if one cheats it's okay for the other.

 

Let me re-iterate for the reading impaired here - she cheated on him , he tried for years to salvage his M after the betrayal , it didn't work and he moved OUT - he chose NOT to 'cheat' - got it now ? good.

 

LF bangs head on keyboard

[Lyssa]

 

LF bangs head on keyboard

 

Come on, it's not worth it!!

[OWoman]

let me try to do this justice:

 

The MM you were with STARTED the affair with you and were still being intimate with their wives. That intimacy faded/ended after they began the affair with you. This doesn't surprise me.

 

Most people (not all, and I suspect that you may be an exception to the rule) are unable to seperate physical and emotional intimacy. Once they became physically intimate with you, they began to bond to you. And their bond with their wife weakened as the affair went on. There is all kinds of research that supports this concept, and it clearly fits what went on in this situation as well. They didn't want to admit it, but as a result of being physically intimate with you, they were becoming more emotionally attached to you as well. And less so with their wives.

 

This makes sense. The fact that they'd all been in long term, monogamous marriages - some never having had a sexual partner other than their wives their entire lives - would support that they were members of your category of mixing physical and emotional intimacy. Else, surely, in the decades of marriage, they'd have enjoyed at least a brief frolic on the side? Had an interesting past BEFORE they got married? But no, they were all sexually staid and boring, I was only their second or third sexual partner ever, and none of them intended leaving their M or jeopardising it or checking out in any way. They were nesters, happily settled, comfortable and stable.

 

 

This is why I will never buy into that "the affair is good for the marriage" concept.

 

Depends on what you mean by "good" for the marriage. On the other thread where the OP asked why marriages involving OWs lasted so long, the assumption was that length = success. I'm sure that in some cases an A does remove the pressure for a D - and so helps keep a couple together. Whether that makes it "good" for the marriage or not would depend on your view on that. For some BS perhaps the fact that their CS hasn't left is good enough; for others it's likely to be an outrage.

 

 

It also goes against your belief that we're not intended to be monogamous. The simple truth is, we bond with those that we are physically intimate with. We create emotional bonds to them, often whether or not they reciprocate those feelings.

 

Some people. Others not. I have a guy friend (who I suspect is closet gay) who sleeps with women and discards them - any woman who's willing to sleep with him (or any guy?) is not worthy of respect. I suppose in some ways I was similar - I regarded lovers as inherently disposable, while friends - friends are for life! So I would never sleep with a guy that I really liked and respected enough to want as a friend - because then I'd have to bin him and lose out on that friendship. Lovers are cheap - you can always find someone hot and gorgeous enough to want to bed - but the kind of attributes I want in a friend are rare and precious, and I wouldn't want to throw those away for a brief rush of passion. (How have the mighty fallen! )

 

Even in YOUR current situation, you've noted that you "don't need anyone else". You're becoming monogamous as a result of your physical and emotional attachment to your MM.

 

No! I'm behaving SEXUALLY EXCLUSIVELY, I am not becoming monogamous. There is a difference - and it may be slight to you, but to me it's significant. One is to do with situational behaviour, the other is to do with identity. I do not consider myself monogamous, and I do not hold myself to those standards or norms of behaviour. The fact that I currently do not have other lovers does not make me monogamous. But it does make my behaviour - for now - sexually exclusive.

 

 

Monogamy isn't "against human nature". Its part of our nature. As evidenced by your MM's very response to the affair. Look at Lizzie's case...how many of her MM have offered to "give up" their spouses? Its because they've begun bonding to her, destroying their bond to their spouses. And they're "giving up" someone else for her (offering to, at least). Offering to become monogamous, in fact.

 

I buy that our species might not be meant to mate "for life". But we aren't meant to cheat on each other. If we were...it wouldn't hurt so much when it happens to us, no?

 

I'd be wary of universalising this. Different people feel pain for different reasons and in different ways. Someone may be hurt by the outrage that THEIR partner cheated, ie some act of gross insubordination. Someone else may be hurt by the betrayal of intimacy. And yet another could be hurt at the implied dissing of their prowess (or adequacy) as a lover - an ego blow. I imagine it would also depend on how invested they were. I've seen guys not care remotely that their GFs were bedding their best friends, because they were just keeping her around as arm candy until the hot new chick finally dropped her knickers, to make a hot swap - but they'd be devastated when their football team lost a game.

 

Even in YOUR life, where you don't believe in marriage and monogamy...you're considering "giving up" that belief (at least temporarily) and marrying him (for a financial reason), and have been monogamous with him up to this point and for the forseeable future.

 

I'm not considering giving up my belief, no. I'm merely not acting on it at present. If a cannibal ate a brussels sprout occasionally, would they cease to be a cannibal?

 

As far as 'breaking the shackles'...I say go for it. Divorce your spouses, and live your life as you see fit. Just don't hurt the person you love(d) in the process...don't cheat...just don't get married, don't set false expectations, and end your current relationship before you move on to the next.

 

Last thing...on the whole submissive thing...you WISH, girlfriend!

 

Ah - but "breaking the shackles" is an act of defiance against The System, not against an individual. Divorcing is still playing by the rules of The System, honouring its codes and constraints. The only way to break the shackles is to act outside of The System, as if the codes just didn't exist... Owl, I've no idea how old you are, but this midlife thing is clearly not in your frame of reference, is it?

[Woggle]

Cheating is an act of defiance and a rebellion against the system? I just love it when people want to be rebellious and revolutionary without actually being rebellious and revolutionary. This is an insult against anybody that actually had to rebel against real oppression. Betraying your family is not a revolutionary act.

[Dominique]

I have a guy friend (who I suspect is closet gay) who sleeps with women and discards them - any woman who's willing to sleep with him (or any guy?) is not worthy of respect. I suppose in some ways I was similar - I regarded lovers as inherently disposable, while friends - friends are for life! So I would never sleep with a guy that I really liked and respected enough to want as a friend - because then I'd have to bin him and lose out on that friendship. Lovers are cheap - you can always find someone hot and gorgeous enough to want to bed - but the kind of attributes I want in a friend are rare and precious, and I wouldn't want to throw those away for a brief rush of passion. (How have the mighty fallen! )

 

Ah - but "breaking the shackles" is an act of defiance against The System, not against an individual. Divorcing is still playing by the rules of The System, honouring its codes and constraints. The only way to break the shackles is to act outside of The System, as if the codes just didn't exist... Owl, I've no idea how old you are, but this midlife thing is clearly not in your frame of reference, is it?

 

"Lovers as inherently disposible". "Lovers are cheap"....Nice. Maybe they are so in your life because you have such a deplorable set of standards. You'd sleep with someone for whom you have no respect? You'd give your own body, soul and sexuality to something "disposable"? If that doesn't speak volumes...

 

Sexual excitement is not a "rush of passion". Passion--true passion--is something else. For human beings with a sense of dignity, that is, and not those who merely see themselves as cats in heat....

 

May I ask... Do you live in a university dormitory or something? A polygamist farm in Utah? Some wife-swapping swingers island?

 

I see you end here with The Marxist School of Sexual Relations....The System.....Yeah. Hon, I have been monogamous in my relationships not because of some spooky capitalist system but because of love, honor, respect and appreciation. Monogamy or the belief in monogamy, while difficult, civilizes, separates men from the apes; puts standards above sloppiness. And the sexiest--truly sexiest couples I have ever seen-- were married couples I knew who were totally into each other and devoted to each other. Makes eveything and everyone else look juvenile.

 

Take responsibility for your behavior...But don't blame "society". Yeesh.

 

Dominque S.

Edited March 6, 2008 by Dominique

[jj2007]

 

I will repeat my question since it wasn't answered.

How do you know for sure that your MM isn't lying to you?

Again, if you have any extra lie detectors around I would really like to borrow one. Or are you a mind reader? Please enlighten me.

 

Nevermind.

I kind of figured I wouldn't get an answer anyway because you don't know for sure. You act like you do so it made me wonder if you figured out a way to detect liars that I didn't know about. Obviously not.

[NoIDidn't]

Welcome Dominique. That post was a little in your face for a new poster, but I feel the same way. The whole "System" thing sounds kinda hippie-ish. LOL.

 

I missed that post entirely though. It is full of contradictions. The main one being that the poster won't sleep with friends because she loves and respects them, but then turns around and says she wouldn't sleep with anyone she didn't respect.

 

Odd.

 

Or did I just misread it?

[Jess-Belle]

sweetie no, your hypothetical would never happen - if he's gone he's gone - let me spell that for you - G-O-N-E- There would be NO coming back

 

So what you're saying is, if your H moved out, for you that would be the end. You'd file for divorce immediately. Right?

 

and I did NOT say if one cheats it's okay for the other.

 

Let me re-iterate for the reading impaired here - she cheated on him , he tried for years to salvage his M after the betrayal , it didn't work and he moved OUT - he chose NOT to 'cheat' - got it now ? good.

 

Except for the part where he screwed around with you, and then went back :lmao: I know, I know... she cheated on him first, the poor baby tried and tried to fix things... then he dipped his winky in someone else, and to this day his wife is still his wife and never stopped being his wife :lmao:

 

It's too funny how you absolutely refuse to even consider a hypothetical situation Come on, would you as his wife that he went back to consider that he was unfaithful during that time? :lmao:

[Tony]

Let's please calm this thread down slightly regarding the put-downs, sarcasm, insults, negatives, etc.

 

On another front, for a thread that really doesn't have a topic and where the original post is mostly a statement of feelings we are traveling right along at a pretty good clip.

 

So I guess there is no well defined topic here...so whatever you write, keep the topic about relationships and BE NICE!!!

[Owl]

Owoman, you make some good points. Let me respond in kind:

 

Depends on what you mean by "good" for the marriage. On the other thread where the OP asked why marriages involving OWs lasted so long, the assumption was that length = success. I'm sure that in some cases an A does remove the pressure for a D - and so helps keep a couple together. Whether that makes it "good" for the marriage or not would depend on your view on that. For some BS perhaps the fact that their CS hasn't left is good enough; for others it's likely to be an outrage.

 

Good for the marriage HAS to be more than just the longevity of it. Quality vs quantity, ya know? Per the previous threads, we agreed that many(but not all) people become emotionally attached to the AP during the affair. And that inherently results in a lessening of the emotional bond to their spouse. Their emotionally investing in their AP, and not in their BS. Its one of the most common "gut instinct, red-flag indicators" that nearly every BS describes. The "distance".

 

That "distance" is NOT good for the marriage. It HURTS.

 

Let me sum this up...can you show me one BS that says that they're GLAD that they're spouse had an affair? Unequivocally glad it happened? A good MC will help a couple learn from the affair and rebuild a better marriage...but you'll find damn few, if any BS's that will agree that the affair was a positive thing.

 

Bluntly...that "good for the marriage" thing is a mindset created by the WS and OP to justify and rationalize their cheating. It really is that simple.

 

Some people. Others not. I have a guy friend (who I suspect is closet gay) who sleeps with women and discards them - any woman who's willing to sleep with him (or any guy?) is not worthy of respect. I suppose in some ways I was similar - I regarded lovers as inherently disposable, while friends - friends are for life! So I would never sleep with a guy that I really liked and respected enough to want as a friend - because then I'd have to bin him and lose out on that friendship. Lovers are cheap - you can always find someone hot and gorgeous enough to want to bed - but the kind of attributes I want in a friend are rare and precious, and I wouldn't want to throw those away for a brief rush of passion. (How have the mighty fallen! )

 

Your friend is clearly disfunctional. Obviously, there are exceptions to any rule. As I'd mentioned, I suspect you are one such person as well. (not 'wired' like the majority of people). But I don't believe that you and your friends views are shared by the vast majority. For YOU...monogamy may be the right thing. But for those around you, it may well not be.

 

No! I'm behaving SEXUALLY EXCLUSIVELY, I am not becoming monogamous. There is a difference - and it may be slight to you, but to me it's significant. One is to do with situational behaviour, the other is to do with identity. I do not consider myself monogamous, and I do not hold myself to those standards or norms of behaviour. The fact that I currently do not have other lovers does not make me monogamous. But it does make my behaviour - for now - sexually exclusive.

 

Well, since you made the age reference, I'll go along with it. As you get older, you'll care less about titles and labels. I don't care if you call it asiago cheese...the behavior you're currently displaying meets the description of "monogamy".

 

Ah - but "breaking the shackles" is an act of defiance against The System, not against an individual. Divorcing is still playing by the rules of The System, honouring its codes and constraints. The only way to break the shackles is to act outside of The System, as if the codes just didn't exist... Owl, I've no idea how old you are, but this midlife thing is clearly not in your frame of reference, is it?

 

Interesting response. I'd like to suggest that you stop looking at "rules", stop looking at "systems"...start thinking about "impacting others". I'm NOT known as a "rules kinda guy". By no means. I love to wave at them as I run past them and get the job done.

 

I made the divorce comment NOT to cowtow (look it up) to the rules...but to respect the person that you'd promised a commited relationship to IN THE FIRST PLACE. Its got nothing to do with rules...its got to do with not hurting the person you claimed to love (at least at one point). And its the same for marriage...if you dont' belive in it...then don't do it. If you know you don't believe in being monogamous, then don't create a situation that allows your partner to draw a false belief and trust that you will. Don't hurt them with your different beliefs.

 

Ending your marriage and leaving your spouse BEFORE you begin an affair with someone else isn't wrong because it breaks the rules...its wrong because it hurts the person you loved and swore those vows to. Or it encourages your affair partner to do exactly that if you're the OP. Again, its not about rules...its about respect and caring for someone you made a promise to.

 

Last thought-

Your considering getting married to solve the Visa issue is "following the rules". WHY DO THAT?!?!?!? By your own logic, YOU are 'bending to the System' by agreeing to such a thing!!!! Stand up, fight! Tell them that no one needs a stinkin' Visa!!! Shake your fist, don't let them contain you!!

 

(see the irony?)

[NoIDidn't]

Let's please calm this thread down slightly regarding the put-downs, sarcasm, insults, negatives, etc.

 

On another front, for a thread that really doesn't have a topic and where the original post is mostly a statement of feelings we are traveling right along at a pretty good clip.

 

So I guess there is no well defined topic here...so whatever you write, keep the topic about relationships and BE NICE!!!

 

?????

 

Where are the insults?

[Lyssa]

I think he's talking about the very subtle insults

[OWoman]

Good for the marriage HAS to be more than just the longevity of it. Quality vs quantity, ya know? Per the previous threads, we agreed that many(but not all) people become emotionally attached to the AP during the affair. And that inherently results in a lessening of the emotional bond to their spouse. Their emotionally investing in their AP, and not in their BS. Its one of the most common "gut instinct, red-flag indicators" that nearly every BS describes. The "distance".

 

That "distance" is NOT good for the marriage. It HURTS.

 

Let me sum this up...can you show me one BS that says that they're GLAD that they're spouse had an affair? Unequivocally glad it happened? A good MC will help a couple learn from the affair and rebuild a better marriage...but you'll find damn few, if any BS's that will agree that the affair was a positive thing.

 

Bluntly...that "good for the marriage" thing is a mindset created by the WS and OP to justify and rationalize their cheating. It really is that simple.

 

Owl I wasn't proposing the "good for the M" thing in the sense of a M with an A vs an M without an A; more in the sense of an M with an A that enables the M to continue, vs an M with no A that then implodes due to dissatisfaction by one (but not the other) party. In the latter case, at least the M is sustained (dysfunctional as it may be - the alternative being proposed here is not an ideal M, but no M at all) and for that BS it may be better than the loss of at least that little bit of their MP that they had. That thread that I think it was Katanya posted about the BW who was happy with her H having affairs, so long as her material needs were met, would be a case in point. She's not faced with the choice of an M with no A or an M with an A; her choice is an M with an A or no M, and she's choosing the M with an A. If her H didn't have the A, she wouldn't have the M and she'd be less happy - at least, according to the story as reported.

 

Your friend is clearly disfunctional. Obviously, there are exceptions to any rule. As I'd mentioned, I suspect you are one such person as well. (not 'wired' like the majority of people). But I don't believe that you and your friends views are shared by the vast majority. For YOU...monogamy may be the right thing. But for those around you, it may well not be.

 

Oh I suspect he's deeply misogynist. Sex as a battle ground, and all that. Me, not so much.

 

Well, since you made the age reference, I'll go along with it. As you get older, you'll care less about titles and labels. I don't care if you call it asiago cheese...the behavior you're currently displaying meets the description of "monogamy".

 

As I get older, I care all the more about labels! I find assumptions and prejudice highly offensive. I prefer to look at each case and person on individual merits, and want the same in return.

 

But it's more than a label - behaviour is a transient thing, and depends on context. How you identify speaks to your values, and the core stuff inside yourself that governs whether or not you're comfortable with your behaviour, and the degree to which compromise becomes possible. Which, down the track, either reinforces your behaviour or shakes it up.

 

Interesting response. I'd like to suggest that you stop looking at "rules", stop looking at "systems"...start thinking about "impacting others". I'm NOT known as a "rules kinda guy". By no means. I love to wave at them as I run past them and get the job done.

 

I made the divorce comment NOT to cowtow (look it up) to the rules...but to respect the person that you'd promised a commited relationship to IN THE FIRST PLACE. Its got nothing to do with rules...its got to do with not hurting the person you claimed to love (at least at one point). And its the same for marriage...if you dont' belive in it...then don't do it. If you know you don't believe in being monogamous, then don't create a situation that allows your partner to draw a false belief and trust that you will. Don't hurt them with your different beliefs.

 

Ending your marriage and leaving your spouse BEFORE you begin an affair with someone else isn't wrong because it breaks the rules...its wrong because it hurts the person you loved and swore those vows to. Or it encourages your affair partner to do exactly that if you're the OP. Again, its not about rules...its about respect and caring for someone you made a promise to.

 

Owl the "system" description was not MY take on it - I was arguing from the perspective of the rationalisations that were offered by the MMs to their febrile consciences. TBH, divorce would have forced them to put their money where their mouths were and compromise on a few of those material comforts they'd gotten so used to - but denounced - and made them confront their own investment in The System. I don't think they were REALLY prepared to go there!

 

For myself - I walked out of a M and didn't immediately D as I also felt it was giving credence to a system I didn't choose to recognise. Until I found myself liable for debts my xH was racking up (we were married COP) so I Dd PDQ after that!

 

Last thought-

Your considering getting married to solve the Visa issue is "following the rules". WHY DO THAT?!?!?!? By your own logic, YOU are 'bending to the System' by agreeing to such a thing!!!! Stand up, fight! Tell them that no one needs a stinkin' Visa!!! Shake your fist, don't let them contain you!!

 

(see the irony?)

 

The irony has been clear to me all along. Getting M is a huge compromise for me, but if it's the only way we can be together - which we both want very badly - it's a compromise I'm prepared to make. MM knows and appreciates the magnitude of that. There are countries we could move to where neither of us would require a visa, where we wouldn't need to M, but unfortunately in our line of work we'd also neither one of us be able to earn a living there! So we're pretty tied into systems we don't like - same as we find every time we have to get our orange juice at the shop in a bottle, rather than picking the fruit of a tree. Living without compromise is only possible if you're the only person on the planet.

[Lookingforward]

So what you're saying is, if your H moved out, for you that would be the end. You'd file for divorce immediately. Right?

 

 

 

Except for the part where he screwed around with you, and then went back :lmao: I know, I know... she cheated on him first, the poor baby tried and tried to fix things... then he dipped his winky in someone else, and to this day his wife is still his wife and never stopped being his wife :lmao:

 

It's too funny how you absolutely refuse to even consider a hypothetical situation Come on, would you as his wife that he went back to consider that he was unfaithful during that time? :lmao:

 

Okay, here's a hypothetical for you - you realise that your venom is misdirected and go into IC to sort out which side of the fence you're on.

 

You loathe cheating, OWs etc etc yet you post that you yourself indulged in several affairs while with someone then get bent out of shape when someone does it to you ?? Of course you weren't just "screwing around" were you?

 

I think for the sake of my sanity I'll just ignore this now.