UGH I hate that I am posting about this

[Kamille]

What do you think would happen if you stopped giving it your 110% and chose instead to only give it say, a good 90% or a perfect 100%? Do you think the relationship would fall appart, or instead, might he not pick up the pieces?

 

Anecdote: my parents have been married 30 years, fairly happy, but my mom is the type to give a 120% of herself all the time. She thinks this is what she needs to do in order to be loved. Last month she got an operation which meant that my dad had to take care of her. She was extremely worried, about everything, from how would he manage to cook food to who would take care of the finances. My dad? My dad was thrilled to finally be able to take care of her for a change. He made her his favorite, macaroni, and did the monthly budget on excel. I hadn't seen him in that much of a good mood for a long time.

 

I'm most likely completely off the mark here, but maybe your relationship would improve - and your bf would take more responsibility for his part in its improvement - if you stepped back a little. Sometimes we mean well by taking the lead and doing nice things for the other but what we're really doing is stiffling them.

[sally4sara]

Wait a minute, he IS single. Also I chose to pay, I cannot put this all on him. I just thought I was part of something wonderful, and as part of a committed couple you help eachother out, pay for things, whatever. My point is I am getting resentful of the fact that I feel like I am giving 110% and he is not -since there is only one thing that I have asked for.

 

Also he doesn't have a drinking problem - while I do believe he was probably drunk that night (he claims he wasn't - and several others who were there agree with him), it was a one time thing.

 

As far as the job thing goes - he is building a new company, that takes time but has huge potential. He is also consulting for another company and the compensation is based on deals signed. So far not enough deals have been signed to claim it as true income (more like play money).

 

Spoken like a true partner. He is very lucky to have you. I do agree with you on one thing. He IS single. You are a partner and he is single. How do you get to marriage from there? And when you do get married, wouldn't you rather be there standing next to someone you know wants to be there as much as you do?

[curiousnycgirl]

Lexi and Kamille you have both probably hit the nail on the head. I agree he probably thinks he wants to get married, but will never actually do it.

 

Kamille - I have no idea how to give less, I truly don't.

 

UGH again I'm an *******!

[curiousnycgirl]

Spoken like a true partner. He is very lucky to have you. I do agree with you on one thing. He IS single. You are a partner and he is single. How do you get to marriage from there? And when you do get married, wouldn't you rather be there standing next to someone you know wants to be there as much as you do?

 

You are right that is why I've never believed in ultimatums. And that's why I hate where I am today.

 

I just wish this would go away

[Deanster]

So, if I understand correctly, what you're really looking for is some clarity from him, so you can make some decisions about what's next.

 

You are pretty happy with where your relationship IS, but you very much want to take the next step, and to know whether he's willing to take it with you, or if you need to go shopping for someone who will.

 

That seems to generate two questions, at least in my mind.

 

The first is to yourself: "Is being married vs. 'together' truly important enough to me to break up an otherwise good relationship, given the realities of age, dating, etc.?" Consider this carefully, and come up with an answer that you feel really SOLID about.

 

If you are actually willing to break up over married vs. 'together', the next question/statement is to him: "I want to take the next step in our relationship. Being married is important enough to me to break up our otherwise good relationship over. I am not willing to remain your 'girlfriend' indefinitely, and the time that I'm willing to do that is coming rapidly to an end. Do you also want to marry me?"

 

Something like that is both a very clear statement of your priorities and intentions, and also asks a very fair and reasonable question of him.

 

I think it's also very much more likely to yield a useful answer that allows you to take the next step than 'marry me or I'm leaving', while achieving the same results.

 

Look at his answer clearly, and if it's not a clear 'I really want to be with you', you have some decisions to make.

[curiousnycgirl]

The first is to yourself: "Is being married vs. 'together' truly important enough to me to break up an otherwise good relationship, given the realities of age, dating, etc.?" Consider this carefully, and come up with an answer that you feel really SOLID about.

 

If you are actually willing to break up over married vs. 'together', the next question/statement is to him: "I want to take the next step in our relationship. Being married is important enough to me to break up our otherwise good relationship over. I am not willing to remain your 'girlfriend' indefinitely, and the time that I'm willing to do that is coming rapidly to an end. Do you also want to marry me?"

 

Really good points Deanster - as I said previously, I am not willing to further compromise my religion for being together. Plus we are not really together, we maintain two separate residences, and given our financial situation, that is simply draining what limited resources we have - for what?! For G-d's sake I earn an enviable living, granted I have some obligations that predate b/f being in my life - but I lived very well with those obligations before him.

 

The fact that we are straining for funds is ridiculous! If we are together why are we paying two mortgages? It is pissing away in excess of $50K (after taxes) a year - it is stupid we could certainly afford vacations, or whatever else with that, rather than being strapped all the time. And since he has no income, his reluctance to be together means he is just blowing his savings - which will just put us in a worse position if we ever do get together!

 

Your second point is completely valid, as I was not clear. The not willing to remain your girlfriend discussion took place in July. He's had since then to act on the fact that he claims he wants to marry me. I'm afraid he just doesn't want to.

 

He puts up lots of "issues" for instance he wants me to move into his house, I want him to move into mine. To be honest there is no room in his house for me or even a single item I own. My house is bigger and I have less stuff. We really need to sell both houses, but in this market, that's just not possible. However his is cheaper than mine, so we could rent it out and cover the expenses, we could not do the same with mine.

 

Secondly his house is 1.5 hours away from my office. So while I work from home a lot - I still need to be able to get to work easily. An hour and a half is not an acceptable commute to me. His house is also 1.5 hours from my family, from NYC which is where we spend a good chunk of our social lives. Frankly he lives in the middle of nowhere and that is not something I am willing to do.

 

UGH it sounds like we are totally incompatible doesn't it? That's truly not the case, but when it comes to the next step, I'm afraid it is.

[StartingOver07]

If I read this from someone else I'd be beating them up because they deserve better. Which is one of the reasons I keep saying I'm such an ashole.

 

This is a fairly global statement as compared to this one...

 

On the other hand - what has me so very down is that I truly love this guy, and truly enjoy nearly every moment we spend together. He is not a bum, he pays his own bills - just doesn't have any to spare due to his lack of income. I have 100% confidence that the businesses he is building will bare fruit, this stuff just takes time. At least he is not operating in the red!

 

... which is fairly specific about his business prospects.

 

Perhaps I missed it, but when you have spoken about him (here and in other posts), I have not hear much about his generosity of spirit.

 

Does this man really have the qualities you'd seek in a huusband or has the issue of marriage somehow taken on a life of its own?

[curiousnycgirl]

Perhaps I missed it, but when you have spoken about him (here and in other posts), I have not hear much about his generosity of spirit.

 

Does this man really have the qualities you'd seek in a huusband or has the issue of marriage somehow taken on a life of its own?

 

Good points - although I don't think it is just the issue of marriage, otherwise why would I have chosen HIM 3.5 years ago, vs the other guys I was dating? I don't think I would consider him particularly generous per se, nor do I think of him as selfish or miserly. I'm really not sure - I need to think about that.

 

Qualities I seek in a husband - that is an interesting question. I look for

1. someone intellectually stimulating, which he is.

2. someone attractive to me, he is.

3. someone I can laugh and be silly with, check for that one

4. someone with whom I have common interests, yup

5. someone who gives me my space, again yes

6. no jealousy issues - most of my friends are men - get over it. he does

7. someone dependable, he is for the most part

8. someone who will put me on an equal pedestal to the one I place him. Ok here we fall short.

 

Frankly I wonder if that is possible - reality is once in love (which has not happened that often to me) I am fairly hopeless. I give it my all.

 

So if he meets 7 out of 8 criteria consistently, and misses on the 1 generally, it the whole thing doomed? Clearly it is because he won't move forward.

 

I am so very hopeless I will die alone with my pets!

[Mr. Lucky]

As far as the job thing goes - he is building a new company, that takes time but has huge potential. He is also consulting for another company and the compensation is based on deals signed. So far not enough deals have been signed to claim it as true income (more like play money).

but frankly he would have had all that money for some of the extras (like his DWI lawyer) if he didn't have a mortage et al to pay.

I'm afraid curiousnycgirl, that he sounds at best irresponsible and at worst a hustler - not much of a catch. His financial acumen seems on par with his commitment level...

 

Mr. Lucky

[curiousnycgirl]

I would agree with you Mr Lucky but truth be told I couldn't pay my bills and keep my house for over 3 years from my savings, so he has clearly done something right!

[StartingOver07]

Good points - although I don't think it is just the issue of marriage, otherwise why would I have chosen HIM 3.5 years ago, vs the other guys I was dating? I don't think I would consider him particularly generous per se, nor do I think of him as selfish or miserly. I'm really not sure - I need to think about that.

 

Qualities I seek in a husband - that is an interesting question. I look for

1. someone intellectually stimulating, which he is.

2. someone attractive to me, he is.

3. someone I can laugh and be silly with, check for that one

4. someone with whom I have common interests, yup

5. someone who gives me my space, again yes

6. no jealousy issues - most of my friends are men - get over it. he does

7. someone dependable, he is for the most part

8. someone who will put me on an equal pedestal to the one I place him. Ok here we fall short.

 

Frankly I wonder if that is possible - reality is once in love (which has not happened that often to me) I am fairly hopeless. I give it my all.

 

So if he meets 7 out of 8 criteria consistently, and misses on the 1 generally, it the whole thing doomed? Clearly it is because he won't move forward.

 

I am so very hopeless I will die alone with my pets!

 

What about the religion issue you've mentioned? Would that be a component of #4?

 

And isn't there a 9th criteria that he wants to be married to you? That the commitment is as wanted and necessary to him as it is to you?

 

I guess, to me -- and perhaps I am a hopeless romantic -- there should be an aspect of being cherished in a relationship. For and by both parties.

 

Personally, I don't think you will be alone with your pets because you come across as someone who is smart and fun and insightful and interesting. But just because you chose this guy 3.5 years ago does not mean he is the right guy for you now.

[curiousnycgirl]

What about the religion issue you've mentioned? Would that be a component of #4?

 

And isn't there a 9th criteria that he wants to be married to you? That the commitment is as wanted and necessary to him as it is to you?

 

I guess, to me -- and perhaps I am a hopeless romantic -- there should be an aspect of being cherished in a relationship. For and by both parties.

 

Personally, I don't think you will be alone with your pets because you come across as someone who is smart and fun and insightful and interesting. But just because you chose this guy 3.5 years ago does not mean he is the right guy for you now.

 

Wow Starting Over thanks - I wish I had as much confidence in me as you do. The religion is something I have already compromised on - otherwise I would never have dated a christian.

 

The cherish part is a really good point. I'm not one of those lovey dovey kind of women - but it would be very nice to feel cherished, I don't have that. To be honest I never have, not even from my parents.

 

I am damaged goods, while that is a different story - it certainly plays into my romantic relationships.

 

My pets are definitely my most reliable companions, and THEY cherish me!

[audrey_1]

You MUST, MUST, MUST move on if that's how he is responding to you. Please move on. Go NC and take back control. I empathize with how much it hurts, but if I can do it, then so can you.

[Deanster]

Sooooo.... I guess I'm unclear about the question, then.

 

If you're serious about the 'move forward or move up' ultimatum you laid out 9 months ago, it's time to announce that you're moving on.

 

If you're not serious about it, settle into the status quo for the foreseeable future, and stop hassling him about it.

 

And if you're unclear about whether you're serious or not, that's a somewhat separate issue from him and his behavior.

 

One of those crazy-simple observations that's almost useless because it's so hard to actually achieve - it's incredibly easy to choose what to do, when you are really clear about what you're trying to accomplish.

 

Perhaps the most painful question I know of:

 

Do your short-term actions support your long-term goals?

[curiousnycgirl]

I have not hassled him even ONCE in the 9 months since I said I would not bring it up again. Nor did I ever give him an ultimatum - as I've said repeatedly I don't believe in them.

 

I posted because I am terribly sad that it has come to the point that am resenting him because of our lack of forward progress. Therefore I feel it is time to move on.

 

This conclusion was reached while speaking with my shrink - who actually believes b/f and I have something special, but that there is something in him that will never allow him to take the next step. And since I want to be wanted and I want HIM to want to get married as much as I do - we are at an impasse.

 

I will be seeing my shrink again tomorrow before the discussion with b/f occurs. There is a high degree of likelihood that my shrink will try to talk me out of having the discussion - just as he talked me out of setting a date in my own head months ago when I said I needed to see progress, or I needed to move on.l

 

I am not cold, nor am I heartless, however I have spent my entire life doing for others at my own expense, and frankly this is not something I am willing to forego. I want to truly share my life with a man that I love, my b/f is not willing to do that.

 

Does that make any sense?

[luvstarved]

Curious,

 

From reading this whole thread, what strikes me is a feeling that the real issue for you is the fear that your BF does not love you as much as you love him and the reality that at the very least he does not convey his love for you in a way that is enough for you.

 

It sounds like otherwise you have a pretty good relationship. You had sex issues that you were able to work out which is an enormous good sign if you ask me...he was willing to do counseling, etc...nice!

 

But things like...him not calling you first when you were separated, him not wanting to get married, etc...I know it has to feel like he does not care as much as you do...and that may be true...or it might just be that it is not his personality to show it in a way that you really appreciate.

 

I do wonder if part of your desire to get married is to get confirmation from him that he really does love you. It's funny, I broke up with a guy many years ago because of his inability to commit and years later he told me that he did not want to get married because he was afraid of being LEFT (and I did leave him, nice self-fulfilling prophecy). So he could have issues that would surprise you...

 

Sounds like you really need to try to do a little soul-searching and decide why you REALLY want to get married. Then you need to find some way of getting the essential information you need from your BF. For example, if you knew in your heart that he truly loved you and that you could trust in that, that it isn't that he does not love you enough but that he is being who he is...would marriage be as important? Would his behavior be more acceptable? Maybe yes, maybe no.

 

Maybe also if you were able to make him understand what bothers you about his demeanor, he might be able to adjust it somewhat, as in, his insistence on his own home and reluctance to get married, etc. If he understood that in your mind it is being interpreted as lack of commitment, not loving you enough, etc...it might even surprise him.

 

I hope it works out for you. To me, it sounds as though you have a pretty decent relationship and all that maybe needed is better mutual understanding and greater efforts to compromise.

[Woggle]

Has he been married before and if so how did it end? That might explain why he is so afraid to get married.

[Curmudgeon]

But again, I'm not married and have never come close - so perhaps I have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

...if you'd ever stop turning me down you just might end up with an idea of what it's like!

[RecordProducer]

I don't see why you want to marry this guy, but I'll go with your desire.

 

We face unspoken ultimatums from the minute we wake up (because we might get fired if we're late for work) to the minute we pay for a product (or otherwise we won't get it). However, ultimatums shouldn't be imposed, because in that case we're putting ourselves in a weak position - we threaten out of despair. And nobody likes desperate people, not even me or you.

 

Don't give him an ultimatum openly. Just drift away gradually. Start seeing him and calling him less and less frequently, until he realizes that he is losing you. If you break up, he will think (know) that he can call you anytime and you'll run to him. When a man feels that he has you in his hand and has a choice, he doesn't try too hard. Right now, you're chasing him and he is running away.

 

If you start drifting away, he will see that you're no longer into him - like he knows you are now - and that will intrigue him. He will see that the ground on which he is standing with you is shaking. You don't need to make up guys or fiends or activities that keep you busy; on the contrary - it hurts even more when you're not really busy and still don't care about seeing him that often. Don't let him figure out your strategy though. Just be less and less available until you become completely unavailable.

 

Trust me, if he loves you, it will work. If not, you don't need him anyway.

Edited March 6, 2008 by RecordProducer

[RecordProducer]

I do wonder if part of your desire to get married is to get confirmation from him that he really does love you. It's funny, I broke up with a guy many years ago because of his inability to commit and years later he told me that he did not want to get married because he was afraid of being LEFT (and I did leave him, nice self-fulfilling prophecy). So he could have issues that would surprise you...

I didn't read all the replies, but this whole post was excellent (I especially like this paragraph)!

 

I also agree with Lexi that he simply doesn't realize how lucky he is to be with you and with this:

Also, this thing about you paying for all the extras. If it's still going on, shut..it..down. Let him enjoy his life in the way he can afford to. You're neither his mother or his wife, to take care of his extra-curricular financial needs.

 

Don't take this personally but your b/f is a selfish man. Is this who you want to potentially spend the rest of your life with? It sounds like you're a very giving person. Don't let someone like this take advantage of your kindness.

Edited March 6, 2008 by RecordProducer

[Mr. Lucky]

Also, this thing about you paying for all the extras. If it's still going on, shut..it..down. Let him enjoy his life in the way he can afford to. You're neither his mother or his wife, to take care of his extra-curricular financial needs.

It's a catch 22, because if she doesn't pay then she doesn't get to have much fun either.

 

Curiousnycgirl, since you are mid-40's, I'm going to assume your BF is roughly the same age. And I'll hazard the following guesses about him:

 

Savings = $0

Stocks, Bonds, Annuities = $0

401K = $0

Real assets (other than his house) = $0

 

Based on your description of him, I've known a lot of similar folks. And I've come to believe that there is a link between his lack of financial discipline and goals and his lack of committment to you and your wants, needs and desires. I've seen it over and over...

 

Mr. Lucky

[RecordProducer]

Savings = $0

Stocks, Bonds, Annuities = $0

401K = $0

Real assets (other than his house) = $0

Why does SHE need him anyway? This looks so depressing!

 

I've also seen successful people who fear commitment. If anything, he should be happy to join her assets.

[curiousnycgirl]

Luvstarved -

 

thanks for all you've written. Just to clarify my issue with his not calling first when we were separated was not really a who called first, it was an issue with the fact that he was willing to let me go without any effort whatesoever. He im'd me saying he was shocked, that was it. When I ended it then (January 2007) I made it very clear that I loved him, but there was a significant issue that he was clearly not willing to work on - and that I could not take the rejection anymore (the issue was his lack of libido). I did not say "we" don't work, I did not say I did not care for him - I said I could not take his rejection. So if he had truly cared at the time, and if I was important to him, do you not think he would even call to say he would try? So yes I guess to a large degree I question if he loves me - of if I've just made it easy.

 

I agree that overall we do have a great relationship - but I have alway said I am looking for marriage, and to share my life - and he said he was looking for the same. Not just weekends. We live over an hour apart, and do not see eachother during the week - so for the most part is Saturday evenings and Sundays. We speak throughout the week - several times a day (mostly initiated by him) - and if we have plans we see each other during the week, but generally not.

 

I simply want this relationship to move forward, and it's not. I tried to take the initiative and basically proposed to him - and he rejected me. He had several reasons for it, not the least of which is he wants to be the man and be the one to propose. Fine then do it! It's been 9 freaking months! marriage is the next logical step.

 

Again thank you for your input - I will think about all of it - and am seeing my therapsit tonight, so will be discusing next steps further.

[curiousnycgirl]

Has he been married before and if so how did it end? That might explain why he is so afraid to get married.

 

No he has never been married before, and claims that he has always wanted to. Clearly he has an issue with it, from what I can tell he has dated some very wonderful women over the years, and has not married any of them.

[Woggle]

No he has never been married before, and claims that he has always wanted to. Clearly he has an issue with it, from what I can tell he has dated some very wonderful women over the years, and has not married any of them.

 

I don't know the guy so I can't say for sure what his issues are but there is something about marriage that scares him. Maybe one of his friends is going through some stuff or it is something that happened in his family. It probably has nothing to do with you.