UGH I hate that I am posting about this

[curiousnycgirl]

This reminds me: are you sure he isn't a mamma's boy? Just a thought, maybe the lady died long time ago.

 

Oh yes he is/was a mamma's boy - his father died when he was 6, and his mother raised he and his brother alone. He was the good one. She died in 1975

 

You know, I am starting to think that this is all about his unlucky financial position, and he even said that he wants to get married when he is able to afford to take his bride.... in other words when he has a stable income. If he is currently unemployed, he feels like less of a man and therefore is not ready to be somebody's man. I've been in a marriage where I've had nothing and the husband was a provider. I've had such traumatic experience due to this fact that I promised myself that I will never ever let any man support me. And I am a young woman. So I can imagine how he as a man feels. He obviously wants to make as much as you or even close to your income or more. I honestly can't blame him for that.

 

That is what he said yesterday - meanwhile he is pissing away any and all savings he ever had. I recognize that the need to be the bread winner is stronger for men - and I cannot understand the emotion he is experiencing around that - but we are where we are.

 

Also, what he said that HE wants to be the one to propose means that he IS thinking about it or he would have just broken up by now. He knows it's important to you and he probably wouldn't just waste your time intentionally knowing that he will never marry you. I think it's really about his financial status. What's his occupation? Is he likely to get a decent job anytime soon?

 

He is starting his own business, which is actually doing well - after only a few months it is in the black - however it does not yet pay him any money. He is also working as a consultant for a company, the compensation from that will come once deals are signed and basically provide a monthly annuity for the term of the deal (generally 3 years). So far they've only signed one deal, failry small $'s.

 

Why would you stop keeping Kosher if you get married?

 

At the start of the relationship we discussed our deal breakers, for him living in a kosher house was one of them. He grew up hunting and still hunts when he can, it is a fundamental part of who he is. An animal that is shot cannot be kosher, and neither one of us believes in killing for the sake of killing. The separation of milk and meat is another thing he just can't get his brain around. While he is in my house today - he respects the rules, but it is very hard for him.

 

By the way, do you plan to have children? Have you ever been married before? If not, I can tell you, marriage is not as good as you think. It brings troubles that you don't have now as a dating couple and the romance wears off before you even take off your wedding gown.

 

I'm too old to have kids. I waited too long

[curiousnycgirl]

I know people like that too, that are one week away from becoming millionaires. All paca paca.

 

And they've been like that for 10+ years and struggling to buy food.

 

Spending thousands on search firms and not finding a job sounds like a pretty bad money move.

 

Your bf is probably going to spend all of his savings and then might want to move in with you.

 

Funny you should say that - he specifically said he does not want the relationship moving forward to be due to financial necessity. I told him I didn't see how that couldn't happen, since it takes time to build what he is trying to build.

 

OY we shall see.

[Ladyjane14]

Marriage doesn't improve a relationship, Curious. It complicates it, creating a third entity, the marriage itself, which needs care and attention equal to the energy invested in the two individuals. Marriage creates a trinity, two individuals and the 'couple entity', all existing on the same plane and all in need of commitment and investment.

 

I've been married for over 25 years now, so I know. Getting married doesn't solve any problems. It only exacerbates those problems which have not been adequately resolved.

 

It's clear that you have loving feelings for this guy. You see his potential, the raw materials that might be shaped into a husband. But people aren't Play-Doh... and in your heart of hearts, you know it.

 

This guy is what he is. You can either accept or reject what he has to offer, but IMHO an ultimatum isn't appropriate to the situation. If this guy doesn't WANT to marry you, if he doesn't want it more than anything he's ever wanted... it's not going to work out in the long run. He'll accuse you of bullying him in every fight or disagreement for the length of the marriage.

[curiousnycgirl]

Ladyjane -

 

I agree 100% which is why I basically refuse to give an ultimatum. I cannot pretend to fully understand all the difficulties marriage presents, as I've never been there. However I truly believe he and I would only be better together vs apart.

 

Does that make any sense?

[LuminousZ]

WOW harsh - probably true, but still harsh. How do you just walk away from someone you love? I guess that is my challenge here.

 

 

Have you never heard the saying.., "If you love someone, let them go. If they return, they're yours, if not, they never were"

[Ladyjane14]

.... I truly believe he and I would only be better together vs apart.

 

Does that make any sense?

 

Yes and no. Yes, it makes sense to enjoy each other's company, to augment the quality of your lives in companionship and sharing for as long as it pleases you both to do so. But no... if marriage and permanent commitment is your unequivocal goal... then this guy just doesn't seem to be on the same page with you.

 

You seem to have a pretty good idea of what you're looking for in a partner, and the willingness to make a lifetime commitment appears to be high on your list of priorities. That, and of course a deep respect for your religious beliefs.

 

I think if you're being really honest with yourself, you'll realize that you're hoping for your boyfriend to develop these qualities over a period of time. And let's face it... if he needs to "develop" them, then they're not already there.

 

You can only deal with what's in front of you, Curious. "Ifs" and "maybes" aren't really a part of the equation, because they're not real facts. As things stand today, you and your boyfriend don't appear to share the same view of the future.

 

I'll be honest with you, as a woman who's been married for a long time, I would never recommend to anybody that they select a partner who wasn't 100% enthusiastic. Marriage can be very fulfilling, but it's fraught with compromise and frustration too. It's kind of like skiing actually. You need to start at great heights, because there's going to some tricky slopes to navigate along the way. If you don't start high enough, you'll end up in a ravine too deep to climb out of.

 

Maybe the thing to do since you're still unsure... is to relieve the pressure from the relationship for awhile. Take marriage off the table for at least six months, spend some time just smelling the roses and getting back in touch with your own individuality as well as some time evaluating your boyfriend just as he is, rather than how you'd like him to be. Then take a fresh look at it later on in the summer.

 

You know, I turned my sweetie down the first time he proposed. So, as you might imagine, it made him feel like quite the burly man when he was finally able to 'sweep me off my feet'. It could be, that if you back off a little bit, your boyfriend will take up the role of pursuer. Guys seem to like that from time to time. And if he doesn't... you can always add that bit of data to your evaluation.

 

Now, I don't want to be pessimistic, but I think it's likely that in six months, your man will still be the same man he is today. But maybe the difference will be in you, in developing a bit more clarity, a bit more self-assurance, and in becoming more fully prepared to deal with the situation.

 

 

p.s. You're not an open wallet, dear. It's nice to be nice... but while you're mulling all this over, don't give more than you can afford to spare with a smile.

[RecordProducer]

Great messages from Ladyjane, as usual!

 

Now I am going to sound as if I am your mother. I don't like this guy:

 

She died in 1975

OK, so he is not a mamma's boy since the lady has been dead for 33 years.

 

That is what he said yesterday - meanwhile he is pissing away any and all savings he ever had.

This is not a serious person who has plan for commitment.

 

At the start of the relationship we discussed our deal breakers, for him living in a kosher house was one of them.

I don't keep kosher and I am not religious, but I can't imagine it being a deal breaker for somebody. First of all, he mocks your very intimate values (your religion) and in such way shows disrespect for you, while at the same time asking from you to have a Christmas tree in your house. What if you told him that a C. tree is a deal breaker for you? Oh, but he can afford to break the deals in his cloudy mind because he never made them.

 

He grew up hunting and still hunts when he can, it is a fundamental part of who he is.

Very nice! A person who kills innocent animals for the fun of it. Can you imagine yourself investing money and time and enjoying killing a rabbit or a bird or deer?

 

An animal that is shot cannot be kosher, and neither one of us believes in killing for the sake of killing.

Please don't tell me that he can't buy meat in the store so he has to personally kill it. Nobody nowadays goes hunting for food. Those days are over thousands of years ago (if we don't count the professional farmers). Unfortunately the primitivism of the stone age is not over.

 

The separation of milk and meat is another thing he just can't get his brain around.

And why would that be a big deal for him? Because he has to open one fridge to get the cheese and the other one to get the ham? Can't you see that he doesn't respect your religion while you respect his?

 

While he is in my house today - he respects the rules, but it is very hard for him.

So it's hard for him to respect your rules and sure enough he imposes his in case you get married, just so you know who's going to be the boss. He will get his C.tree and whatever he wants and your values will be flushed down the toilet. This is just one example, but it shows who he is underneath his skin. It won't be long before you realize that he will make all the rules and they will be against you - in case you do get married.

 

Life is too short to serve other people's needs without getting yours fulfilled, to spend years waiting for someone to change, waiting for someone to become merciful and respectful. Life is too short for living in frustration because somebody who is below you in every aspect wants you to erase your identity and become his personal golden fish (to fulfill his wishes). I would forget about marriage if I were you. I would adopt a child and experience motherhood. Kids bring more joy than men and they never turn their back on you.

 

All that I remember from my two marriages is a lot of effort invested, anger, loneliness, sadness, frustration, and injustice. What for? You give your heart and soul, time, energy and nerves to someone who takes you for granted and can easily live without you. Doesn't that sound familiar to you? Maybe it doesn't, maybe I am wrong. Write down what each one of you has invested in this relationship in terms of affection, support, love, respect, effort, etc.

 

I think ultimatums are not so bad as they seem to some people, because the whole point of them is to check the man's love: if he gives up on you easily then he doesn't love you enough. If he does, he will do what it takes to keep you. I would rather know exactly how much I mean to someone than waste my time waiting for Mr. Big Shot to make up his mind about me. In my book that's humiliating. Furthermore, it puts you in a position to walk on eggs because you are still in the trial period where you have to leave a good impression in order to be chosen by his majesty.

I always vote for self-respect. I wouldn't blackmail him, I would simply dump him with a smile. But you can't do that and that's what makes you weak in his eyes; and he is taking advantage of it.

 

My second husband got cold feet one day prior to the scheduled wedding day. Maybe you remember that thread on LS. I wrote him off immediately. I told him he didn't exist for me anymore and I didn't even want to pick up the phone. It rang all night and the next day he told me he'd marry me. We were married a week after the scheduled date because he freaked out. The catch is, I had another guy (an ex-BF) who was begging me to marry him. Men take actions when there is challenge. If you want them, they don't want you. My uncle said once, "In order for a woman to be loved by her man, she either has to not love him or pretend that she doesn't love him." And he is a man...

[curiousnycgirl]

RP -

 

I'm with you on most of your post, however you missed a critical part of what I wrote about hunting. Neither he nor I believe in killing for the sake of killing - so if you'r enot going to eat it, don't shoot it. We have hunted birds, and gone fishing together - and when we get more than we can use, the remainder goes to a soup kitchen or similar charity.

 

There is some truth to the rest of what you posted, but let's be clear. If I were still an orthodox jew, I would not be dating this man. I have not been orthodox in about 23 years, since my finace died. I keep kosher, because I always have - it's not the huge a deal to me. However I will not turn my kitchen traif on a whim. AND so that my sister can eat in my house, I will have to maintain some kosher things (including the barbecue grill she bought me!).

 

You made a lot of really good points however - and I need to seriously think about them. LadyJane also made some excellent points - that I am struggling with. I agree with her that I was him to WANT to marry me - and be excited etc about it. Hence the reason why I dislike ultimatums.

 

I think your Uncle probably had it right - but that was more like an implied ultimatum.

 

I don't know!!! We are having a joint counseling session on Tuesday - guess we will see. It is very interesting - when my therapist first heard about my b/f, he didn't like him at all. Once he got to know him he did a 180 and thinks I need to stick it out because we have something special.

 

Also FYI once my mother got over the fact that he is not Jewish - my mother pretty much likes him. I wouldnt say she is head over heels - on the other hand my mother and I are worlds apart on everything we say or do - so I take that with a grain of salt. However my mother does not object to him. How's that?