So I told the wife

[Trialbyfire]

Actually, you'd both be smart to do exactly that.

"This, this, that, and this" are really your ENs (emotional needs), the basics of being content to stay in a relationship with your partner. Important stuff.

There's a difference in expressing/meeting needs and spewing/forcing them.

 

You coddle these cheaters.

[angie2443]

There's a difference in expressing/meeting needs and spewing/forcing them.

 

You coddle these cheaters.

 

 

I agree 100%.

[Mz. Pixie]

 

What I've been trying to drive hom here on LS for months now, and what some other posters here have been trying to say is very, very simple. Too simple for you to pretend you don't understand:

 

If you choose to ignore your husband and his need for sex and intimacy with you. Then you make a one-sided choice to hamstring the marriage. You force a painful decision on your husband - either celibacy, divorce, or an affair. There is no "work" to be done. The husband is a simple creature to keep happy. Don't cry to your Starbucks swilling Oprah followers later and lambast him for not having "worked" on the marriage. That's a bullsh*t smokescreen to justify your actions. If he pointed out that he the lack of sex is a problem and you blew it off - then accept the risk you take. You knew what needed to be done - ou just didn't want to do it.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Most men are relatively simple to keep satisfied.

 

Many times the problem has been pointed out point blank- as in my case- but the other spouse doesn't take it seriously or doesn't think it's an issue.

I am often amazed the people that say "Well, of course he wasn't satisfied with our sex life- but we're a busy couple with four kids" or the man that says "She complained that I didn't spend enough time with her or meet her emotional needs but I didn't think it was a big deal"

 

In many cases, it takes alot for someone to bring up what's bothering them in a marriage, only to be denied or blown off.

 

I'm not saying that cheating is okay. I'm saying that often times a partner has expressed the problems before. I think alot of times it's like "Well what are they going to do about it?" Which pushes your partner into a decision such as the one SD pointed out earlier.

 

I mean really, what are your choices in that situation?? You can't be like "I know you promised only to have sex with me- but guess what? I don't like it (don't have time) so we're not having it" It just doesn't usually work out that way.

[Mustang Sally]

Yes - I'd say that's pretty accurate.

So - please remind me (I'm old, you know ).

 

What was her reaction to this emotional distance between you two? Did she talk to you about it? Request counseling? Try to "woo you" by making your favorite dishes, doing extra nice things for you, etc?

Or just let the divide grow by trying to ignore that it was there in the first place?

 

How about her reaction to the distance that probably existed in your marriage even before you started having affairs. What did she do then in response to it?

 

(Jeebuz. I feel like a freaking Defense Attorney today...)

[Kasan]

I don't condone affairs, but with that said, how do you disregard what so many "respected" male posters have been pointing out here on LS? They can put up with pretty much anything except for a lack of intimacy in the bedroom.

 

We on the other hand, often have a long laundry list of criteria our mates have to meet.

 

So we may consider the message from our male posters obnoxious, cruel, hateful, loathsome, but we have to consider the message--it is after all from their perspective, whether we like it or not, if you truly want an understanding of why some marriages fail.

 

I think for me it's not so much the end result of the behavior, but what led to it, and the painful repercussions that follow.

[angie2443]

So true.

 

While it does not justify an affair, the fact is that many here who protest his affair do so because they themselves have been betrayed. And many of them could have perhaps prevented such an affair?

 

Never will I justify an affair, but always I can understand what caused many affairs.

 

When I was young and inexperienced, I would have believed this. However, I now understand that certain people are more prone to cheat. People with poor bounderies, people who are narcissistic(sp?), and people who want more than one sex partner are some of them.

 

I know in my situation, the only thing I could have done to avoid my husband's EA was to have married someone differant. My husband had crossed the line with her (she was engaged to get married when he met her) before I entered the picture. He didn't feel the need to tell me the nature of their relationship when he and I hooked up.

 

I know of other situations where the man/woman who cheat, do so because it is easiar to run to somebody else and tell their troubles to them (and get lots of ego strokes) then to be mature and work on their problems with their spouse.

 

You claim that "I can understand what caused many affairs", but the truth is, unless your were in the same bed with the couple who experienced the affair, you can't.

[Trialbyfire]

I don't condone affairs, but with that said, how do you disregard what so many "respected" male posters have been pointing out here on LS? They can put up with pretty much anything except for a lack of intimacy in the bedroom.

 

We on the other hand, often have a long laundry list of criteria our mates have to meet.

 

So we may consider the message from our male posters obnoxious, cruel, hateful, loathsome, but we have to consider the message--it is after all from their perspective, whether we like it or not, if you truly want an understanding of why some marriages fail.

 

I think for me it's not so much the end result of the behavior, but what led to it, and the painful repercussions that follow.

Because Kasan, the marriage has already failed by the time the woman withholds. It's recoverable at that point, though, if it's worked on. If it gets to the point of cheating, whomever takes the cheater back, ends up having to coddle the cheater, like a parent/wayward child relationship.

 

This is something I can't and won't condone.

 

What I see is male bantam rooster crowing, in the OPs tone. Very unattractive in a grown man.

[angie2443]

Exactly.

 

 

I'm not saying that cheating is okay. I'm saying that often times a partner has expressed the problems before. I think alot of times it's like "Well what are they going to do about it?" Which pushes your partner into a decision such as the one SD pointed out earlier.

 

I mean really, what are your choices in that situation?? You can't be like "I know you promised only to have sex with me- but guess what? I don't like it (don't have time) so we're not having it" It just doesn't usually work out that way.

 

Dirvorce! In SD's case, he'd be doing everyone, including himself, a big favor.

[Ladyjane14]

There's a difference in expressing/meeting needs and spewing/forcing them.

 

You coddle these cheaters.

 

Read Kasan's post again. These guys keep telling us the SAME THINGS over and over. Now, for the sake of this particular conversation, we're not talking about narcissist serial cheaters. That's a whole different animal. What we're talking about are regular joes... living like monks within their committed, monogamous relationships.

 

Even my great-great-granny could've told you as much as Scriv has said here. It's common knowledge and it hasn't changed since the dawn of time. But now we're going to reinvent the wheel??? ...and to what purpose?

 

 

I don't condone affairs, but with that said, how do you disregard what so many "respected" male posters have been pointing out here on LS? They can put up with pretty much anything except for a lack of intimacy in the bedroom.

 

We on the other hand, often have a long laundry list of criteria our mates have to meet.

 

So we may consider the message from our male posters obnoxious, cruel, hateful, loathsome, but we have to consider the message--it is after all from their perspective, whether we like it or not, if you truly want an understanding of why some marriages fail.

 

I think for me it's not so much the end result of the behavior, but what led to it, and the painful repercussions that follow.

[Mustang Sally]

You know.

Scrivdog may truly be a narcissist.

However, I maintain that we still don't have enough information about the other side(s) of the story (or his, really) to make an informed judgement of that. And I'm not sure that - short of using that as justification to verbally castrate him on LS - that it really matters in the big picture of each of our own individual lives.

 

I know how his manner is insulting to others here. But to me, he is just a tired out guy who finally decided to come clean with a double life that he has been (dishonestly) leading. And he presents himself as abrasive at times.

 

I agree with what Kasan, JamesM, Mr Lucky, and others are saying. We don't all have to like what SD is saying. Goodness knows, I certainly don't like what he is saying...what is there to like about the difficult-to-face point of view he is presenting here?

 

But, for crying out loud, people.

There is a learning opportunity here.

 

While we may not all (or really - any of us) agree with his past (or present) decisions on how to run his life, we ARE - in my opinion - fortunate to be able to see into the window of one guy's road through infidelity. Similarly to Lizzie's input, I think this affords the rest of us - no matter what side of the equation we may fall on, be it WS, BS, OW, OM, whatever - the opportunity to learn something (many things?) valuable from someone else's misery and hopefully go forth and not replicate preventable misadventures.

 

Why can we not see it in this light?

[angie2443]

Scrivdog, I use to think you just hated women, but now, after reading more of your comments, I just think your hateful in gereral. I think you need to see a pschyciatrist or at least a good counselor. You probably could use some antidepresants. I've known people with hateful, negative attitudes like yours whove gotten help and it's done a world of good for them.

 

Right now, you are damaging your children (or child, I can't remember how many you had). You may not understand this, but the hate is seeping through you and changing the way your children view the world. I don't think you want that.

 

I know many here are trying to have you save your marriage, but I think the kindest thing you can do is to divorce your wife and stay away from everyone untill you get yourself fixed.

[Kasan]

Because Kasan, the marriage has already failed by the time the woman withholds.

 

I disagree with this--sometimes you can withhold without knowing it. You are too involved with the kids and life and all you can think about at the end of the day is throwing yourself into bed, and in my case, I wouldn't have probably noticed if I was in bed alone or not. Any attempts at intimacy from my husband were brushed off.

 

But now based on what our "male" posters have written I really wonder how fair it would have been to divorce my husband for cheating, (as cheating is a deal breaker for me) if he had done it?

 

I guess that I wonder what it would have taken to get my attention?

 

But this is a threadjack, and I don't condone cheating, but what I guess I am trying to say is reading LS has made me see both sides more clearly.

[Trialbyfire]

Read Kasan's post again. These guys keep telling us the SAME THINGS over and over. Now, for the sake of this particular conversation, we're not talking about narcissist serial cheaters. That's a whole different animal. What we're talking about are regular joes... living like monks within their committed, monogamous relationships.

 

Even my great-great-granny could've told you as much as Scriv has said here. It's common knowledge and it hasn't changed since the dawn of time. But now we're going to reinvent the wheel??? ...and to what purpose?

You and I can/will disagree until the cows come home.

 

Marriage is between two people. Each person has needs. There's cause and effect, for those who insist on allocating two-sided blame. If you don't meet her emotional needs, there will be no sex or she, in turn might also go to a third-party to meet those emotional needs. In this case, to the best of my knowledge, the OPs wife chose the former. She withdrew within herself. The OP chose to drag in a third-party of whom, if you read clearly, he has no future plans for, only the now, to satisfy his own selfish needs.

 

Once again, it's all about the OP. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a narcissist. It appears that womankind must revolve around him.

[Trialbyfire]

I disagree with this--sometimes you can withhold without knowing it. You are too involved with the kids and life and all you can think about at the end of the day is throwing yourself into bed, and in my case, I wouldn't have probably noticed if I was in bed alone or not. Any attempts at intimacy from my husband were brushed off.

So, what did your husband do to help you with the raising of children? Did he help a lot, to alleviate the burden or maybe suggest you bring in some domestic help?

 

But now based on what our "male" posters have written I really wonder how fair it would have been to divorce my husband for cheating, (as cheating is a deal breaker for me) if he had done it?

 

I guess that I wonder what it would have taken to get my attention?

 

But this is a threadjack, and I don't condone cheating, but what I guess I am trying to say is reading LS has made me see both sides more clearly.

Optimum phrase "if he had done it". Try experiencing cheating without withholding or cheating...period. I suspect you'll change your mind.

[eeyore1980]

You know.

Scrivdog may truly be a narcissist.

However, I maintain that we still don't have enough information about the other side(s) of the story (or his, really) to make an informed judgement of that. And I'm not sure that - short of using that as justification to verbally castrate him on LS - that it really matters in the big picture of each of our own individual lives.

 

I know how his manner is insulting to others here. But to me, he is just a tired out guy who finally decided to come clean with a double life that he has been (dishonestly) leading. And he presents himself as abrasive at times.

 

I agree with what Kasan, JamesM, Mr Lucky, and others are saying. We don't all have to like what SD is saying. Goodness knows, I certainly don't like what he is saying...what is there to like about the difficult-to-face point of view he is presenting here?

 

But, for crying out loud, people.

There is a learning opportunity here.

 

While we may not all (or really - any of us) agree with his past (or present) decisions on how to run his life, we ARE - in my opinion - fortunate to be able to see into the window of one guy's road through infidelity. Similarly to Lizzie's input, I think this affords the rest of us - no matter what side of the equation we may fall on, be it WS, BS, OW, OM, whatever - the opportunity to learn something (many things?) valuable from someone else's misery and hopefully go forth and not replicate preventable misadventures.

 

Why can we not see it in this light?

 

Ok, I'll get right on this. I'll call my daughters right now and explain to them if they want to keep their significant others, they better bow right down and be a doormat slave, do whatever it takes to keep SO happy, and to hell with their life. If SO is treating you well, lucky you, otherwise, just suck it up, baby, cause men have dicks, and they must be serviced on whatever schedule the man wants. Then I will make us all appointments for frontal lobotomies, cause we will certainly need them. After all, men are nothing more than a penis that walks and talks. What happens with their penis controls every aspect of their life. So all you women out there, take heed, service your man, or he has every right to get it elsewhere!!!!

Ok, we have now completely justified the actual intercourse with someone outside the marriage and put it completely on the shoulders of the BS. What about all the lies and sneaking around? That just go with the territory?

[angie2443]

But, for crying out loud, people.

There is a learning opportunity here.

 

While we may not all (or really - any of us) agree with his past (or present) decisions on how to run his life, we ARE - in my opinion - fortunate to be able to see into the window of one guy's road through infidelity. Similarly to Lizzie's input, I think this affords the rest of us - no matter what side of the equation we may fall on, be it WS, BS, OW, OM, whatever - the opportunity to learn something (many things?) valuable from someone else's misery and hopefully go forth and not replicate preventable misadventures.

 

Why can we not see it in this light?

 

Is this really a learning opportunity here? SD seems (to me) so full of hate and to look down on so many that I don't completely trust his words. I'm not saying that I think he's making everything up, but that he exaturates the parts that make him look like the victom, and down plays (or leaves out) the parts that makes him look bad.

 

Imo, we don't get that realistic of a "view" on the occurances inside a relationship when someone comes on here and completely tears apart their spouse. In these cases, I think were only getting what the poster wants us to see (not the truth).

[Mustang Sally]

Ok, I'll get right on this. I'll call my daughters right now and explain to them if they want to keep their significant others, they better bow right down and be a doormat slave, do whatever it takes to keep SO happy, and to hell with their life. If SO is treating you well, lucky you, otherwise, just suck it up, baby, cause men have dicks, and they must be serviced on whatever schedule the man wants. Then I will make us all appointments for frontal lobotomies, cause we will certainly need them. After all, men are nothing more than a penis that walks and talks. What happens with their penis controls every aspect of their life. So all you women out there, take heed, service your man, or he has every right to get it elsewhere!!!!

Ok, we have now completely justified the actual intercourse with someone outside the marriage and put it completely on the shoulders of the BS. What about all the lies and sneaking around? That just go with the territory?

Ok.

Whatever.

I am not now, nor haveI ever, condoning/ed his behavior.

 

I'm saying: try to take from it that there ARE guys out there who DO see it this way.

 

We can tell them all day long how WRONG they are for thinking what they do (in OUR opinion, of course), but all we can really expect to change is OUR OWN behavior when faced with situations (or people) that are similar.

 

Do you think that the fact that you disagree with him and what he has done is going to change him in anyway? Do you think that finding a whipping boy for any pent-up anger that some of us here at LS may feel is going to somehow avenge any wrongs that may have been done to some of us? My opinion is "no."

 

Feel free to say that you disapprove of his lifestyle. But why give him the power to make you so indignant? Take what pertinent infomation from it that you possibly can, and then let go.

[Trialbyfire]

Is this really a learning opportunity here? SD seems (to me) so full of hate and to look down on so many that I don't completely trust his words. I'm not saying that I think he's making everything up, but that he exaturates the parts that make him look like the victom, and down plays (or leaves out) the parts that makes him look bad.

 

Imo, we don't get that realistic of a "view" on the occurances inside a relationship when someone comes on here and completely tears apart their spouse. In these cases, I think were only getting what the poster wants us to see (not the truth).

I agree. There's nothing to be learned in this thread beyond someone looking for the signs of this type of person in your spouse. If you see the same red flags, run, don't just walk away.

[Mustang Sally]

Is this really a learning opportunity here?

I happen to think so.

Like I said in the previous post. We don't have to agree that his POV is the correct POV. But it is a POV nevertheless, and maybe, while being rather, um...unpleasant to hear, it should be at the very least recognized and considered.

 

SD seems (to me) so full of hate

I get this vibe from him, too.

 

I'm not saying that I think he's making everything up, but that he exaturates the parts that make him look like the victom, and down plays (or leaves out) the parts that makes him look bad.

You may be right.

I have said this many times: we don't have enough information about the reality of his situation to make informed judgements.

 

Imo, we don't get that realistic of a "view" on the occurances inside a relationship when someone comes on here and completely tears apart their spouse. In these cases, I think were only getting what the poster wants us to see (not the truth).

Again.

I agree with what you are saying.

Hence my other questions to him about his marriage, earlier today.

[Mustang Sally]

I agree. There's nothing to be learned in this thread beyond someone looking for the signs of this type of person in your spouse. If you see the same red flags, run, don't just walk away.

Isn't that a valuable thing to learn?

I happen to think so.

And I'd like to know what red flags, exactly, SD was sending up by knowing more about his story. Because I totally agree with you. If I notice that I see them in my relationship, then I want to take action for myself, before getting to the point he and his wife are at.

[Kasan]

So, what did your husband do to help you with the raising of children? Did he help a lot, to alleviate the burden or maybe suggest you bring in some domestic help?

 

Ah the raising of the children--did my husband help? Not much, not because he was parked in front of the tv, but he was working...a lot. He did what he could when he could, but the burden fell on me.

 

Domestic help? How wonderful it would have been to have this! I don't know many kids in their early 20's who can afford domestic help.

 

We can agree to disagree about the subject of cheating based on our own personal perspectives, but I do appreciate the men who come to this forum to say why they do the things they do or why they are tempted to do the things they do, given the divorce rate.

 

These male perspectives have made me have a hard look at my marriage and realize how lucky I was to have the marriage I had/have given my actions in the marriage, when the recipe for disaster was in the making. If my husband had been a different type of man, I could have been walking in so many of your shoes.

[Scrivdog]

So - please remind me (I'm old, you know ).

 

What was her reaction to this emotional distance between you two? Did she talk to you about it? Request counseling? Try to "woo you" by making your favorite dishes, doing extra nice things for you, etc?

Or just let the divide grow by trying to ignore that it was there in the first place?

 

How about her reaction to the distance that probably existed in your marriage even before you started having affairs. What did she do then in response to it?

 

(Jeebuz. I feel like a freaking Defense Attorney today...)

 

Yes we went to counseling. Waste of time. Actually the guy was good, but he moved too fast and scared the wife. She didn't want to go back.

 

My wife commented that she thought this distance was a expected consequence of a long marriage. She basically thought this was normal. This is one reason I'm sure it was hard to get through to her.

[cranium]

You and I can/will disagree until the cows come home.

 

Marriage is between two people. Each person has needs. There's cause and effect, for those who insist on allocating two-sided blame. If you don't meet her emotional needs, there will be no sex or she, in turn might also go to a third-party to meet those emotional needs. In this case, to the best of my knowledge, the OPs wife chose the former. She withdrew within herself. The OP chose to drag in a third-party of whom, if you read clearly, he has no future plans for, only the now, to satisfy his own selfish needs.

 

Once again, it's all about the OP. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a narcissist. It appears that womankind must revolve around him.

 

Chicken and the egg. Maybe she's not withholding as much as she is and has not been interested in putting any energy towards their sexual relationship. She's known for years he's been unhappy/unfulfilled with the sexuality in their relationship and she's chosen not to do anything about it. Not withholding maybe, just not the same hormones, or interest, or she hates her body, or she was abused when young - who knows.

 

There's a difference between withholding because of some resentment or grudge and simply being indifferent to sexuality in the relationship. He could have been very attentive to her needs, but she made the choice to not make their sexual relationship a priority. He cannot have an emotionally satisfying sexual relationship with his wife without her participation.

[nadiaj2727]

So true.

 

While it does not justify an affair, the fact is that many here who protest his affair do so because they themselves have been betrayed. And many of them could have perhaps prevented such an affair?

 

Never will I justify an affair, but always I can understand what caused many affairs.

 

What caused ALL affairs was ONE person's decision to have sex with someone they are not married to.

 

I'm protesting and I am not a BS. In fact I am a former cheater as I had an affair on my ex-fiance (with xMM). My fiance could not have done anything to prevent my affair. Our relationship was happy as pie before my affair -- then suddenly I was rewriting our history and FINDING reasons (not even good ones) to cheat on my ex fiance and things he was doing wrong and reasons we shouldn't be together. It all boiled down to one thing though... I was very selfish and addicted to the ego stroking and self esteem boost of xMM. I was blaming my ex fiance to justify my wrong actions.

 

 

My ex fiance was a wonderful man and we had a wonderful relationship. Yes we had some minor issues like every relationship, but he would have tried to walk on water in order to make our relationship even better. To blame him or to say that anything he did "caused" me to cheat on him is just ludicris, I can say that with 100% certainty because it was my situation and it was all about me, me, me. People who cheat are selfish, plain and simple. Even if he had been doing something wrong or not having enough sex with me (which is one of the things I liked about xMM -- he desired me and always wanted to have sex with me) or whatever, *I* am the one who chose to handle that by looking to someone else instead of my relationship or, most importantly, myself and my own values.

 

My point is that often people cheat because something is wrong inside of *them*, not their relationship or the BS. I think blaming the other partner or the relationship is an attempt to justify the affair instead of look inside and see what is wrong with *me* for cheating. That is why I think cheating is a character flaw. Some people won't cheat no matter how bad things get and some people will cheat no matter how good things get. I unfortunately was one of the latter. Now I am one of the former!!!!

 

So please do not think I am saying affairs are inexcusable because I am a BS. I am the exact opposite of a BS. I am someone who KNOWS what a cheater and why they cheat (whatever the underlying relationship issues may be) because I was once a cheater.

[Scrivdog]

.

Hence my other questions to him about his marriage, earlier today.

 

Ok the "are her needs met question". I didn't bother to answer because for this crowd, there is no answer they'll believe. I've seen them do that to others here. I goes like this:

 

1) "Yes, I met all her needs."

"LIAR!"

 

2) "No I didn't meet her needs"

"You see!? You're scum!"

 

But let me put it to you this way: I asked her to tell me what she needed many times. I was perfectly open to hear anything. But she had nothing to say. Basically she was satisfied.

 

If she had needs I wasn't meeting - she was keeping it a secret from me-!