So I told the wife

[eeyore1980]

Ok.

Whatever.

I am not now, nor haveI ever, condoning/ed his behavior.

 

I'm saying: try to take from it that there ARE guys out there who DO see it this way.

 

We can tell them all day long how WRONG they are for thinking what they do (in OUR opinion, of course), but all we can really expect to change is OUR OWN behavior when faced with situations (or people) that are similar.

 

Do you think that the fact that you disagree with him and what he has done is going to change him in anyway? Do you think that finding a whipping boy for any pent-up anger that some of us here at LS may feel is going to somehow avenge any wrongs that may have been done to some of us? My opinion is "no."

 

Feel free to say that you disapprove of his lifestyle. But why give him the power to make you so indignant? Take what pertinent infomation from it that you possibly can, and then let go.

 

I wasn't indignant, I was being sarcastic. Regardless of what this guy may think, a little over half of the human population is not on earth for nothing more than to serve and keep happy the other little less than half the population.

This isn't just a sexist thing. The same mindset has fueled racism, too. As long as people are not willing to stand up against this and say it is wrong, nothing is going to change. Do I think I personally am going to change his views? Probably not, but I will at least give it a shot. I find it to be more constructive than to act like there is some kind of justification for it.

So, HEY SCRIV! WOMEN ARE PEOPLE, TOO! REALLY, I SWEAR, IT HAS BEEN SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN!

[Mz. Pixie]

My reaction to a woman telling me that would be, "so let me get this straight, I have to worry about being perfect with respect to what you want, and I have to walk on eggshells just to keep you from being a cheater?" Then my next step would be go up stairs for about 5 minutes, come back down, hand her a suitcase and saying, "nice knowing ya".

 

 

It's not about being perfect or walking on eggshells to keep them from being a cheater. That's not required. It's about meeting each other's needs and putting the other person first.

[mrmaximum]

I think you're personalizing this issue. While this may be true for you, you can't really generalize internalized feelings and project them on to everyone.

 

I highly doubt most marriages improve after infidelity. Twice is right about somthing being missing that never returns and why would you pay a therapist to counsel you if they believed it too?

[Mz. Pixie]

No, because he decided to stick his member in other women.

 

Because she didn't want him to stick it in her.

 

Come on, this is not just our opinion- there are plenty of books out there on the subject of meeting each others emotional needs to keep your partner happy and your marriage strong.

[Mz. Pixie]

So, HEY SCRIV! WOMEN ARE PEOPLE, TOO! REALLY, I SWEAR, IT HAS BEEN SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN!

 

I don't think he's saying women are not people. I actually bet that he's been very good to his wife in the past.

 

You'd be surprised how well your husband will treat you when you meet his sexual needs- and you're eager about it- not considering it a "chore".

[Jess-Belle]

One poster called Scrivdog's answer here "Oh, the old treat me well and I won't cheat"--with a very sarcastic tone to her writing. And---what of it? Is a man, a husband, just to pay the bills to an emotional and sexual zombie all his life? As does not need repeating, we are talking of the cases here where the man has been trying to communicate to his wife what is wrong and for whatever reason she shuts down or shuts him out. We are not talking about cruel serial cheaters.

 

Yes, that would be me.

 

My point was that having that attitude I referred to (listing things and then saying this is what will keep a man from straying) is, to my ears, tantamount to a spoiled brat tossing threats about.

 

I do special favors for my man, I dote on him, I surprise him, I seduce him, because I love him and want to see him happy. This, in turn, makes me very happy. There's a very simple difference between doing it for that reason, and doing it because of some unspoken understanding that someone will do it if I don't. WTF kind of relationship would that be?

[blind_otter]

I highly doubt most marriages improve after infidelity. Twice is right about somthing being missing that never returns and why would you pay a therapist to counsel you if they believed it too?

 

Fair enough. Perhaps my relationship is just the exception to the rule.

 

I'm not sure I understand the second part of your post though..."why would you pay a therapist to counsel you if they believed it too?" Course that could just be my preggo brain.

[twice_shy]

I think you're personalizing this issue. While this may be true for you, you can't really generalize internalized feelings and project them on to everyone.

 

Thats why I said, "more than likely".

[eeyore1980]

Now you're just being Scriv's female opposite. Him: Arrogant. You: Bitchy. Him: Clueless. You: Hypersensitive.

 

How does that help anything?

 

One can be clued in to what their SO's wants, needs and desires are without being a "doormat slave". You're position - and rhetoric - is just as one-sided as his...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I consider it a doormat slave when SO's wants, needs, and desires are the only ones of importance. If that makes me bitchy and hypersensitve, so be it. I was also exagerating and using sarcasm, to try and empahsize my point. I'm not really going to tell my daughters that and have a group appointment for frontal lobotomies...

[twice_shy]

This is the point that you and some other folks here are consistently missing...

 

There's NO GUARANTEE that meeting a woman's emotional needs will result in a return to sexuality within the marriage. Some of these guys DO meet their wive's ENs, and still.. no sex. .

 

And sometimes women do have sex with their husbands all the time, yet they still cheat.

 

Taking care of your spouse is NO GUARANTEE that they will not want it with someone different anyway.

[twice_shy]

Because she didn't want him to stick it in her.

 

Come on, this is not just our opinion- there are plenty of books out there on the subject of meeting each others emotional needs to keep your partner happy and your marriage strong.

 

its not about my opinion or what any book says. I was responding to your assertion that its not fair he lose the house and kids because you said his wife withholds sex.

 

My point is, he should have thought about that before betraying her by f####g other women.

 

My needs were by far met by my XW, but you didn't see me going out and becoming a lame ass cheater.

[Jess-Belle]

My reaction to a woman telling me that would be, "so let me get this straight, I have to worry about being perfect with respect to what you want, and I have to walk on eggshells just to keep you from being a cheater?" Then my next step would be go up stairs for about 5 minutes, come back down, hand her a suitcase and saying, "nice knowing ya".

 

Too right...

[twice_shy]

its not about my opinion or what any book says. I was responding to your assertion that its not fair he lose the house and kids because you said his wife withholds sex.

 

My point is, he should have thought about that before betraying her by f####g other women.

 

My needs were by far met by my XW, but you didn't see me going out and becoming a lame ass cheater.

 

In addition, I divorced my wife because I wasn't scared of what I'd lose. I am a man and I know very well I would lose alot. but in the end I gained alot back too, my dignity, and the chance to be happy in life.

 

My kids are now suffering for it, but it wasn't me that did this to them. Some men put their money where their mouth is and leave a bad situation and don't worry about money. some care more about money than doing what is right.

[twice_shy]

My needs were by far met by my XW, but you didn't see me going out and becoming a lame ass cheater.

 

Correction, my needs were by far NOT met by my XW.

 

When are we going to have the ability to fix our typos here? What is up with the lame restriction?

[Ladyjane14]

And sometimes women do have sex with their husbands all the time, yet they still cheat.

 

Taking care of your spouse is NO GUARANTEE that they will not want it with someone different anyway.

 

But that's not the case here, Twice. Scriv's case is the one in question... and he's told us repeatedly that he feels he's tried everything.

 

Now, I'm not condoning his choice. He and I have bandied that one back and forth many times. I've always maintained that there are BETTER ways to get a woman's attention, including letting her watch you pack your bags.

 

This thread is about Scriv though, and where he's going from here. It's not about busting a cheater in the teeth, or keeping him from making a cheating decision. That ship has already sailed. And while I certainly think a postmortem on the mistakes of the past can clarify the future... it needn't be mean-spirited, based on assumptions, or generalized.

[Trialbyfire]

I'm really a bit surprised at you--you have never struck me as judgmental, and you are someone whose opinion I respect, but gotta tell you you are hitting a raw nerve here.

 

FYI, I did work, so I'm going to leave it at that.

Kasan, sometimes there's a limit to being reasonable and understanding. Cheating hits a raw nerve for me too. Nothing in this entire universe will ever make me believe that cheating is understandable. It's not, it's a conscious thought and action. It smacks of passive-aggressive action, it also speaks of selfishness and zero integrity.

 

As for having children early, this was your choice. If it was an accident, there are other methods to correct things.

 

I chose the man I married. I also chose to divorce him, due to his cheating. His loss, as he continually reminds me. Oh well, life's rough and then you die...

 

This is the point that you and some other folks here are consistently missing...

 

There's NO GUARANTEE that meeting a woman's emotional needs will result in a return to sexuality within the marriage. Some of these guys DO meet their wive's ENs, and still.. no sex. Sometimes a woman is just content with the status quo and unwilling to budge.

 

Alot of these guys have literally tried EVERYTHING. They've communicated nicely and they've yelled, they've catered to her every whim and then withdrawn, they've romanced and they've doled out passive/aggressive punishments... and nothing works.

 

I've been there. I had a singular viewpoint once.... I was right, he was wrong.

 

It wasn't until I'd caught him 2 weeks short of sticking his dick in some cam-whore that I was willing to question my almighty "rightness". And when I did, I got a whole new perspective.

 

Female thinking is NOT applicable to the male brain, and some things are just true no matter if we don't like them or if we don't agree with them. My husband's "truth" is just as valid and legitimate for him as mine is for me... and at the end of the day, adherence to my own slanted viewpoint was destructive to him and to the relationship as a whole.

 

Once I unbent and gave credence to his position... I realized it was he who was right, and I who was wrong, that emotional intimacy is irrevocably TIED to sexual intimacy in healthy, committed, opposite-sex partners, and that it was the emotional intimacy he'd been looking for all along. What's more, he's not the only beneficiary of a return to intimacy. I had been snipping off my nose to spite my face, dealing with UNNECESSARY conflict, just because I had the wrong idea and believed I was being objectified and minimized in the marriage.

 

It's a lightbulb moment.

And I'm truly sorry for those women who won't stretch their imaginations enough to capture it. 'Cause you miss out on the love and contentment that can be achieved in a long-lasting relationship.

Oh come now, ladyjane. There's also no guarantees that a woman's emotional needs will be met if she spreads'em. While your lightbulb moment might have happened, if she does, in situations with men like the OP, all I can see is status quo. He gets his needs met, she is left high and dry. Wow, that sounds like fun to me...

 

There are two sides to ever issue, as people are want to constantly remind me.

 

Sorry, but that is what it does sound like. Do as I damn well please or I won't see nothing wrong with boning as many women as I can.

 

Thats not the attitude I feel when reading other men's similar stories like this, but its definitely the idea I get when I read Scriv's.

I have issues with a remorseless cheater. This won't be the last time Scrivdog does this. He will keep repeating the cycle unless a lesson is learned.

[eeyore1980]

I find this especially interesting. I mentioned some nice things to do for your husband that costs nothing but a couple of hours a week of your time.

 

Any your interpretation of that is that doing these things makes you a "dormat slave". In other words, you would feel demeaned if you did them-!

 

I think many women feel this way. I suspect my wife does as well. I think that she feels that if she does something extra for me - she has really sunk to a new low and to rectify it - I must pay up by doing something much greater for her.

 

What got me involved with the OW to begin with wasn't her figure. It was the way she went out of her way to do nice things for me. Fo example, she ironed a shirt for me once - and I was taken aback. I can iron my own damn shirt - I always do. But I was touched that she gave a sh*t.

 

You realize I am looking at this from my own experience. For me personally, this would have gone over a lot better if you had included a list of the extras you do for your wife. I may very well be wrong, but the way your posts read to me are pretty one-sided. I know my situation, not yours, but your posts contain a lot of things my husband has said to me, and also said to others about me, and a lot of his attitudes seem to be shared by you. This makes me suspect there are a lot of similarities in our marriages. I know my husband played a lot of head games, and twisted facts, like how often we had sex, how long it had been since the last time. I fell for it a few times, would even get out the calendar to prove it had been 2 days, not 2 weeks, then said to hell with it. These constant attacks on me made my sex drive pretty much dry up and blow away. To him, nothing I wanted or needed came anywhere near to as important as what he wanted and needed, and this is what I get from your posts, too.

He screwed up bigtime. He cheated on me, and I have asked him to leave. Now he gets the big revelation of how much he loves me and needs me, and now is trying to fix all this damage. Now that he is about to lose me, he has realized exactly how much he is losing. Too bad he didn't notice before now, and I can't help but wonder if it is the same for you. You say this is your warning to all us women, maybe this can be a warning for you, too.

[Jess-Belle]

It's not so easy to "walk" when your kids are the heart and soul of your life...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I'm curious Mr. Lucky...

 

In theory, how would having an affair as opposed to "walking" be any better of a solution if the affair reults in divorce?

Or does this theory bank on the assumption of 'she/he'll forgive me'?

 

Not saying this is what you specifically believe, it's just a thought I had when I read what you wrote...

[eeyore1980]

I find this especially interesting. I mentioned some nice things to do for your husband that costs nothing but a couple of hours a week of your time.

 

Any your interpretation of that is that doing these things makes you a "dormat slave". In other words, you would feel demeaned if you did them-!

 

 

And BTW, I didn't feel demeaned to do anything but have sex on demand. That was very demeaning to me. I explained this to H repeatedly, he didn't care how I felt, all he cared about was he was entitled to sex, and it was my duty as his wife to provide it whenever he wanted it.

[Ladyjane14]

 

Oh come now, ladyjane. There's also no guarantees that a woman's emotional needs will be met if she spreads'em. While your lightbulb moment might have happened, if she does, in situations with men like the OP, all I can see is status quo. He gets his needs met, she is left high and dry. Wow, that sounds like fun to me...

 

Uggghhh... I'm just at a loss as to HOW can I explain this to you so that you understand it.

 

A return to emotional intimacy via a good sexual relationship benefits BOTH partners in exactly the SAME way. It's not just men who reap the rewards... but their female partners as well.

 

The idea of providing emotional intimacy to a woman through romance and household chores is a fallacy. We aren't emotionally satiated by these things. We don't feel entwined with the man who performs these actions for us. We feel "entwined"... when we're actually ENTWINED , replete and satisfied, just as he does.

[Mz. Pixie]

its not about my opinion or what any book says. I was responding to your assertion that its not fair he lose the house and kids because you said his wife withholds sex.

 

My point is, he should have thought about that before betraying her by f####g other women.

 

And I'm sure he did think about it. Because according to him he's tried everything. His wife is not here to tell her side of the story so I can only go on what's he's told. But he was caught- wife doesn't want to have sex- he doesn't want to divorce and hurt his kids etc- so his choices are limited. Become a monk or cheat or leave his wife.

 

I personally think he should have divorced her.

 

My needs were by far met by my XW, but you didn't see me going out and becoming a lame ass cheater.

 

As I said earlier, Bravo to you!!!! I think it's great that you didn't cheat! But every situation is different, just like the people are.

 

Forgive me- because I don't know- did you wife cheat on you??

[Mz. Pixie]

And sometimes women do have sex with their husbands all the time, yet they still cheat.

 

Taking care of your spouse is NO GUARANTEE that they will not want it with someone different anyway.

 

 

I agree with this statement, although I believe the best recipe for a great marriage is meeting each other's emotional needs and keeping your lovebank

and your partner's lovebank full.

 

I do not think that the normal everyday person who may have cheated is the same as someone who is a serial cheater.

[Kasan]

As for having children early, this was your choice. If it was an accident, there are other methods to correct things..

 

Judge much?? For the record my dear, you asked if I had any domestic help when my kids were little and I responded that most kids in their early 20's usually don't have the resources to afford domestic help.

 

You brought my children into this discussion and that is all I'm going to say about this to you.

 

I understand that infidelity touches a raw nerve with you, but your husband's reasons for infidelity don't subscribe to the average joe's criteria, which is what this discussion is about.

[eeyore1980]

I don't think he's saying women are not people. I actually bet that he's been very good to his wife in the past.

 

You'd be surprised how well your husband will treat you when you meet his sexual needs- and you're eager about it- not considering it a "chore".

 

Oh, you think so? I think you would be VERY surprised at the way I was treated by my husband, even when I was meeting his sexual needs and enjoying every minute of it...

[nadiaj2727]

Then you didn't exactly read what I said. Even if a M "survives" infidelity, more than likely things aren't truly 100% ever going to be right for the betrayed. There will always be some part, even if it is a small part of them inside that reels once in a while.

 

I can survive a shark attack, but I may come away from it with no legs. yes, I survived, but i lost something I'll never get back and life won't be the same any longer.

 

I did read what you have been saying. And I am saying that a marriage can be happy after infidelity if both people want it badly enough. Some people have told me it is even *better* because they don't take each other for granted, they realize issues that were wrong in their marriage before the infidelity (cheating, obviously, and before that a lack of communication usually, a lack of intimacy, sex, etc.) and they make sure to work hard to meet each other's needs. And the betrayed spouse is able to forgive the other spouse.

 

Everyone does things that are wrong in a relationship that are never truly forgotten, but I think that if people communicate and work on things and forgive each other instead of just sweeping things under the rug or holding onto bitter feelings, etc., then they can make a broken relationship stronger.

 

I think it takes a strong person to forgive and to trust again after experiencing such hurt and devastation. Statistics show that many marriages experience infidelity and don't end in divorce. Who are we to say how well these marriage "survive"? Some are happy and some aren't. Your marriage did not survive, some people's marriages do. You feel your marriage would not be happy if you had stayed, other people have stayed and feel they have happy marriages. So it just shows us that everyone handles it differently -- I doubt there is any "good" way to handle being cheated on. But I like the "happy endings" where even after such a painful thing happens, the two people come closer together and learn and grow from the experience.

 

Let's not forget that a person who was cheated on is going to have bitter feelings whether or not they chose to stay married. Getting divorced does not equal healing, although for some it may be the beginning of healing. For others, reconciling with their partner may be the beginning of healing. It depends on the individual and what they feel will make them happy. From the tone of your posts and from your past words, it seems like you are still pretty upset that your wife had an affair, even though your choice was to divorce. You seem to ridicule or berate others who choose to stay married after infidelity and you sound really bitter at those who have cheated or those who have stayed with cheaters. How is your unhappiness (on your own) different than people who are unhappy (together) but choose to stay married? In my opinion the best scenario (if the cheating spouse is truly remorseful and willing to change) is for both parties to try to work together to be happy together again. I would rather be happy again with a person who betrayed me than unhappy on my own that that person betrayed me.

 

That is why I admire Owl because his posts are never bitter or spiteful. He has accepted his choice to stay with his wife and forgive her because he loves her. Now they have a happy marriage and you can just tell from the tone of his posts that he is a happy person. I believe that a happy marriage is eventually possible after infidelity but that just may be little old naive me.