So I told the wife

[Mr. Lucky]

Ok, I'll get right on this. I'll call my daughters right now and explain to them if they want to keep their significant others, they better bow right down and be a doormat slave, do whatever it takes to keep SO happy, and to hell with their life. If SO is treating you well, lucky you, otherwise, just suck it up, baby, cause men have dicks, and they must be serviced on whatever schedule the man wants. Then I will make us all appointments for frontal lobotomies, cause we will certainly need them. After all, men are nothing more than a penis that walks and talks. What happens with their penis controls every aspect of their life. So all you women out there, take heed, service your man, or he has every right to get it elsewhere!!!!

Now you're just being Scriv's female opposite. Him: Arrogant. You: Bitchy. Him: Clueless. You: Hypersensitive.

 

How does that help anything?

 

One can be clued in to what their SO's wants, needs and desires are without being a "doormat slave". You're position - and rhetoric - is just as one-sided as his...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Trialbyfire]

Isn't that a valuable thing to learn?

I happen to think so.

And I'd like to know what red flags, exactly, SD was sending up by knowing more about his story. Because I totally agree with you. If I notice that I see them in my relationship, then I want to take action for myself, before getting to the point he and his wife are at.

Yes and no. If you look around, you will see that many of the men who end up in sexless marriages, find ways to address the initial causes, instead of being so weak that they indulge in an affair. It's the difference between a man with character v. someone who is determined to win.

 

My ex-H has NPD. He and Scrivdog appear to share some characteristics, although I would have to get to know Scrivdog personally which will never happen, to see if there are more of the same. While my ex never experienced with holding, he had unhealthy needs that he got met...elsewhere. Each person has to draw the line of how low they will go, to get their needs met. Also, are those needs reasonable?

 

Ah the raising of the children--did my husband help? Not much, not because he was parked in front of the tv, but he was working...a lot. He did what he could when he could, but the burden fell on me.

 

Domestic help? How wonderful it would have been to have this! I don't know many kids in their early 20's who can afford domestic help.

This is the sacrifice you make for having children early in life, unless you have family money. You could also have gone back to work yourself, if times were that tough that he needs to work extended hours. If your reasoning was that you chose to be a SAHM for the sake of personal childcare, that is your choice.

 

We can agree to disagree about the subject of cheating based on our own personal perspectives, but I do appreciate the men who come to this forum to say why they do the things they do or why they are tempted to do the things they do, given the divorce rate.

 

These male perspectives have made me have a hard look at my marriage and realize how lucky I was to have the marriage I had/have given my actions in the marriage, when the recipe for disaster was in the making. If my husband had been a different type of man, I could have been walking in so many of your shoes.

Yes, your man is one of the good ones, well worth keeping.

[nadiaj2727]

That's true but, even in the event of divorce, there's often a return on the wife's investment - she's still living in the house. My exW stayed in our 3K sq ft home with our son. I moved into a studio apartment so small I could stand in the middle and touch all four walls. I don't think my situation is that unusual...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

Hmmm. I'm sorry to hear that was your situation. I don't know if you live in a community property state. Here everything acquired after marriage is split 50 / 50. So you and your wife would have had to sell the house and split the profits equally or one of you would have had to buy out the other's interest in half the house (assuming you acquired it after marriage).

[Scrivdog]

.. if they want to keep their significant others, they better bow right down and be a doormat slave ..

 

I find this especially interesting. I mentioned some nice things to do for your husband that costs nothing but a couple of hours a week of your time.

 

Any your interpretation of that is that doing these things makes you a "dormat slave". In other words, you would feel demeaned if you did them-!

 

I think many women feel this way. I suspect my wife does as well. I think that she feels that if she does something extra for me - she has really sunk to a new low and to rectify it - I must pay up by doing something much greater for her.

 

What got me involved with the OW to begin with wasn't her figure. It was the way she went out of her way to do nice things for me. Fo example, she ironed a shirt for me once - and I was taken aback. I can iron my own damn shirt - I always do. But I was touched that she gave a sh*t.

[Kasan]

This is the sacrifice you make for having children early in life, unless you have family money. You could also have gone back to work yourself, if times were that tough that he needs to work extended hours. If your reasoning was that you chose to be a SAHM for the sake of personal childcare, that is your choice.

 

I'm really a bit surprised at you--you have never struck me as judgmental, and you are someone whose opinion I respect, but gotta tell you you are hitting a raw nerve here.

 

FYI, I did work, so I'm going to leave it at that.

[Mz. Pixie]

Dirvorce! In SD's case, he'd be doing everyone, including himself, a big favor.

 

So, he's to divorce her- possibly lose his house, alot of money, and miss being with his kids at least half the time because she doesn't want to meet his sexual needs????? How fair is that exactly?????

 

It's not always a black or white situation.

[Mr. Lucky]

Hmmm. I'm sorry to hear that was your situation. I don't know if you live in a community property state. Here everything acquired after marriage is split 50 / 50. So you and your wife would have had to sell the house and split the profits equally or one of you would have had to buy out the other's interest in half the house (assuming you acquired it after marriage).

We did eventually sell the house and had a (court decreed) non-equitable split. But that took 18 months. Meanwhile, the OM moved in 30 days after I moved out...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

So, he's to divorce her- possibly lose his house, alot of money, and miss being with his kids at least half the time because she doesn't want to meet his sexual needs????? How fair is that exactly?????

 

It's not always a black or white situation.

 

Agree 100%. It's easy to say this:

 

Unless you're an animal, you're capable of addressing the issue to begin with or if it's a non-negotiable in that love has died, then walk, like a mature adult.

 

It's not so easy to "walk" when your kids are the heart and soul of your life...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Kasan]

Scrivdog what do you want to happen now and how are you going to go about it to get it?

[Blue Eyed Brain]

This thread is very long but an interesting read. There are much similarities from this thread to current life in friends and others.

 

OP - What's your current state? Separating? Staying together? How old are your kids?

 

Staying together may make you resent your life, however, checking out and rebirthing your life will give you peace and hope to find someone. There's nothing wrong with hope.

[Dominique]

But the sad part is that that I know what's eating you more than you yourselves do. I see the same reaction from some of the female commentators on TV regarding Spitzer: You women are scared sh*tless of admitting what really happened to you or what could eventually happen to you in your marriage.

 

What I've been trying to drive hom here on LS for months now, and what some other posters here have been trying to say is very, very simple. Too simple for you to pretend you don't understand:

 

If you choose to ignore your husband and his need for sex and intimacy with you. Then you make a one-sided choice to hamstring the marriage. You force a painful decision on your husband - either celibacy, divorce, or an affair. There is no "work" to be done. The husband is a simple creature to keep happy. Don't cry to your Starbucks swilling Oprah followers later and lambast him for not having "worked" on the marriage. That's a bullsh*t smokescreen to justify your actions. If he pointed out that he the lack of sex is a problem and you blew it off - then accept the risk you take. You knew what needed to be done - ou just didn't want to do it.

 

But for your sake, if you value the health of your marriage - you'd do well to listen up, ladies, to the advice I'm about to give you which is better than you deserve - because I know most of you won't know what to do with it:

 

1) When your husband comes home from work - treat the man kindly. He's spent his day with complete morons all day, he hardly needs a sour-faced spouse to come home to at the end of the day. He'll be looking forward to seeing you - not Joe's bar.

 

2) Try and remember what sex was like when you were dating or first married. If you can spend a lousy 1/2 hour every other day re-creating that experience. He'll be home early.

 

3) Do a few small things every so often for him. A 15 minute backrub. Make him his favorite meal every so often just the way he likes it. Compliment him occasionally.

 

That's it. Costs you nothing. Takes less than two hours a week. And no other woman will stand a chance taking his attention away from you.

 

 

He's absolutely right. The wife might have her view, but this is entirely what it takes--and a bare minimum at that.

 

What is it with the women here? There is so much venom! But serves me right--This is a forum for basic unhappiness, I gather. I came here for advice about a friend-lover situation. Reading around here, however, the hostility from some of the women is something unexpected.

 

One poster called Scrivdog's answer here "Oh, the old treat me well and I won't cheat"--with a very sarcastic tone to her writing. And---what of it? Is a man, a husband, just to pay the bills to an emotional and sexual zombie all his life? As does not need repeating, we are talking of the cases here where the man has been trying to communicate to his wife what is wrong and for whatever reason she shuts down or shuts him out. We are not talking about cruel serial cheaters.

 

What on earth is wrong with being a woman to one's man, turning up the heat, doting on him? Hell, I do all that, and I also am a professor of literature at a renown university in Calif.

 

Life has absolutely no color when there isn't someone to adore. Scriv shouldn't be held hostage to a spouse who is hardly his partner.

 

Okay. Let 'em rip!

[twice_shy]

While I don't condone withholding, if the marriage has deteriorated to the point of withholding, it doesn't say much for the female needs being met.

 

Scrivdog's message is obnoxious. Spread'em or we'll cheat. .

 

Sorry, but that is what it does sound like. Do as I damn well please or I won't see nothing wrong with boning as many women as I can.

 

Thats not the attitude I feel when reading other men's similar stories like this, but its definitely the idea I get when I read Scriv's.

[Owl]

Scriv, I'm curious...what actions did you take (prior to cheating) to communicate the seriousness of the lack of physical intimacy to your wife?

 

Did you just tell her? Did you tell her that you were horribly unhappy without it? Did you tell her that it was serious enough that you'd consider getting that need filled outside of the marriage? Did you tell her that you felt this was a potentially marriage-ending issue from your perspective?

 

How strongly did you communicate the possible outcome of not meeting that need to her?

 

Do you feel that you did 'everything you could' to get that point across to her BEFORE you slept with someone else?

[twice_shy]

I can already see my bf's reaction to my telling him something like this Yes baby, I like this, this, that, this, etc. and if you do them, no other man has a chance! WTF? I am so sure he's going to want to treat me well just to make darned sure I don't go out looking for a new peen to jump on :lmao:

 

My reaction to a woman telling me that would be, "so let me get this straight, I have to worry about being perfect with respect to what you want, and I have to walk on eggshells just to keep you from being a cheater?" Then my next step would be go up stairs for about 5 minutes, come back down, hand her a suitcase and saying, "nice knowing ya".

[twice_shy]

Ok the "are her needs met question". I didn't bother to answer because for this crowd, there is no answer they'll believe.

 

No because whatever your answer is its going to wind up being the same thing, you putting the blame on her and justifying your adultery til the cows come home.

 

Thats all you have ever done, and thats all you are ever gonna do.

 

With that said, just do both you and your wife a favor and take the initiative, go to a divorce lawyer and file for dissolution.

[twice_shy]

So, he's to divorce her- possibly lose his house, alot of money, and miss being with his kids at least half the time because she doesn't want to meet his sexual needs????? How fair is that exactly????? .

 

No, because he decided to stick his member in other women.

[twice_shy]

It's not so easy to "walk" when your kids are the heart and soul of your life...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

No its not easy when you love your kids. Thats why I would have ever cheated on their mother. And believe me, my needs weren't met by her by any stretch of the imagination. I chose to keep it in my pants. Someone has to have a sense of responsibility to their children.

[nadiaj2727]

 

With that said, just do both you and your wife a favor and take the initiative, go to a divorce lawyer and file for dissolution.

 

I agree, what's the point of a marriage like this? SD is the one who is cheating and very dissatisfied, while he says his wife is satisfied with the way things are. If he is that dissatisfied and he has honestly tried to do everything to fix it (which I honestly doubt, since it seems to me he's been cheating while supposedly trying to fix things), then he should just leave so that they can BOTH find happiness alone or with someone better suited for them. It sounds like he is afraid to take any action and instead likes things to happen for him -- he wants his wife to kick him out or change to meet his needs. Well it doesn't look like his wife is doing either of those so Scriv, the moves are all up to you from here on out. Sorry to sound harsh, I don't know how else to say it.

 

Twice_shy I disagree with your stance that a marriage can't survive infidelity. From everything I have read and heard from therapists and pscyhologists and relationship experts and from couples I know in which infidelity has occurred, marriages *can* survive and even thrive after infidelity. But it is a very very long and hard road and it takes a lot of time and effort on *both* spouses' parts to rebuild trust and to forgive. It can only even be attempted to be done if both partners really really want to put 100% into it. And it can only be successful if both partners continue to give their all despite obstacles that are sure to come. It doesn't seem like that is the case here. It seems like SD is just looking for a way out. I don't mean to sound harsh but he should stop being cowardly and just take his own way out... file for divorce and all its consequences which is better than this marriage he says makes him so unhappy and is really just a sham at this point. Sure, he will have financial and societal ramifications. But he is the one who doesn't want to stay in this marriage, wouldn't life alone be better for him in the long run???

[twice_shy]

 

 

He's absolutely right. The wife might have her view, but this is entirely what it takes--and a bare minimum at that.

 

What is it with the women here? There is so much venom! But serves me right--This is a forum for basic unhappiness, I gather. I came here for advice about a friend-lover situation. Reading around here, however, the hostility from some of the women is something unexpected.

 

I'm a man and the way he blames his wife for everything and refuses to put any on himself disgusts me. You don't have to be a woman to see that.

[nadiaj2727]

Oh, and he wasn't sarcastic and even downright condescending? I can imagine why his wife doesn't wanna "do" him the way he spouts on this forum.

 

Good point, it's hard to have desire for someone who is whiny and self-centered and saying "what about me, me, me" all the time. I bet you anything he is *not* like this with OW. Scriv you said you were touched that OW wanted to iron your shirt. Well what sweet things do you do for her that you don't do for your wife? I bet there are a lot of things. But after years and years of life problems she might not be as willing to do sweet things for you or have sex with you, and vice versa. Then you would be back here stuck in the same boat. I think you should work on making yourself happy without the help of any woman, your wife or your OW.

[twice_shy]

Twice_shy I disagree with your stance that a marriage can't survive infidelity. From everything I have read and heard from therapists and pscyhologists and relationship experts and from couples I know in which infidelity has occurred, marriages *can* survive and even thrive after infidelity.

 

Then you didn't exactly read what I said. Even if a M "survives" infidelity, more than likely things aren't truly 100% ever going to be right for the betrayed. There will always be some part, even if it is a small part of them inside that reels once in a while.

 

I can survive a shark attack, but I may come away from it with no legs. yes, I survived, but i lost something I'll never get back and life won't be the same any longer.

[blind_otter]

Then you didn't exactly read what I said. Even if a M "survives" infidelity, more than likely things aren't truly 100% ever going to be right for the betrayed. There will always be some part, even if it is a small part of them inside that reels once in a while.

 

I can survive a shark attack, but I may come away from it with no legs. yes, I survived, but i lost something I'll never get back and life won't be the same any longer.

 

I think you're personalizing this issue. While this may be true for you, you can't really generalize internalized feelings and project them on to everyone.

[Jess-Belle]

Actually, you'd both be smart to do exactly that.

"This, this, that, and this" are really your ENs (emotional needs), the basics of being content to stay in a relationship with your partner. Important stuff.

 

We do do that. My point was that an affair is not a viable option if those emotional needs are not met.

[Ladyjane14]

If you don't meet her emotional needs, there will be no sex...

 

This is the point that you and some other folks here are consistently missing...

 

There's NO GUARANTEE that meeting a woman's emotional needs will result in a return to sexuality within the marriage. Some of these guys DO meet their wive's ENs, and still.. no sex. Sometimes a woman is just content with the status quo and unwilling to budge.

 

Alot of these guys have literally tried EVERYTHING. They've communicated nicely and they've yelled, they've catered to her every whim and then withdrawn, they've romanced and they've doled out passive/aggressive punishments... and nothing works.

 

I've been there. I had a singular viewpoint once.... I was right, he was wrong.

 

It wasn't until I'd caught him 2 weeks short of sticking his dick in some cam-whore that I was willing to question my almighty "rightness". And when I did, I got a whole new perspective.

 

Female thinking is NOT applicable to the male brain, and some things are just true no matter if we don't like them or if we don't agree with them. My husband's "truth" is just as valid and legitimate for him as mine is for me... and at the end of the day, adherence to my own slanted viewpoint was destructive to him and to the relationship as a whole.

 

Once I unbent and gave credence to his position... I realized it was he who was right, and I who was wrong, that emotional intimacy is irrevocably TIED to sexual intimacy in healthy, committed, opposite-sex partners, and that it was the emotional intimacy he'd been looking for all along. What's more, he's not the only beneficiary of a return to intimacy. I had been snipping off my nose to spite my face, dealing with UNNECESSARY conflict, just because I had the wrong idea and believed I was being objectified and minimized in the marriage.

 

It's a lightbulb moment.

And I'm truly sorry for those women who won't stretch their imaginations enough to capture it. 'Cause you miss out on the love and contentment that can be achieved in a long-lasting relationship.

[Mz. Pixie]

We do do that. My point was that an affair is not a viable option if those emotional needs are not met.

 

In a perfect world with perfect people it would never happen. Unfortunately we're not dealing with perfect people.

 

If you are able to stay with your partner and not stray after years and years of them not meeting your needs- then that's fantastic. I applaud you. Not everyone does or can though.