So I told the wife

[eeyore1980]

Great post as well. I can always tell the ones who are still hurting from their posts.

 

Oh, yes, I am still hurting a great deal.

[nadiaj2727]

Because many women use sex to manipulate their husbands. And many of them think that they can make the decision about sex and when it should be had and when it shouldn't and that the husband just has to basically like it or lump it. How many times have you heard a girlfriend say "Well, he has pissed me off so I'll just cut him off". It's the ultimate trump card!

 

Many women do stop having sex with their husbands out of resentment and frustration. I certainly had no sex drive in my first marriage because I was not emotionally connected to him. I still did have sex with him on a regular basis but I really wasn't enjoying it much- which is why I understand what you're saying.

 

 

I always hear that women have emotional needs and men have sexual needs. Maybe something is wrong with me but I have both LOL. I am very sexual and I *need* frequent and passionate sex to sustain a good long-term relationship. (I'm not saying it would be right for me to cheat if I didn't get... just that I recognize that is one of my needs that I have to communicate to my partner and that I am happiest when it's met.)

 

I couldn't imagine denying sex for any reason. When I'm angry, I think make up sex is in order. When I'm sad, sex cheers me up. When I'm stressed, sex relaxes me. When I want to show him how I feel about him, sex brings us closer.

 

With my ex-fiance, we had a real problem because his sex drive was a lot lower than mine and I felt he didn't want or desire me enough. Everything else was great in the relationship and my emotional needs were plenty met -- he was a very giving and tender guy, I was lucky. I think he thought his emotional and sexual needs were being met -- he was very satisfied (like Scriv's wife I guess). But *I* felt like something really big was lacking. Only now, after making a lot of mistakes, have I realized that I have a need to feel wanted, desired, and sexually fulfilled that wasn't being met (in part because I didn't understand it or express it to him well enough). Now I realize that that initial passion and intimacy can be re-created over and over again in a long-term relationship if both partners really want to make it happen. It takes time and work like anything else.

 

Am I the only female who has a high sex drive on here? I'm just curious. I keep hearing the men complain about lack of sex and women about lack of emotion. For me in the past it was definitely a lack of sex that *I* was complaining about, and I could never imagine myself wanting to "withhold" it for any reason, especially when my emotional needs are being met. (Perhaps this will change as I get older? I'm 27. Or perhaps it's because my relationship was only about 2 years old, not married for many many years??) I can't figure it out LOL

[Mr. Lucky]

I agree both partners should have their needs met, but there are other needs to be met besides sex.

But those needs are prioritized differently (generally speaking) by men and women. In a marriage, you could meet ALL my needs EXCEPT sexual frequency and quality and I wouldn't be happy. It seems like, at least for the wives of some of the male posters here, the same statement wouldn't be true. Without judging right or wrong, these lower-libido wives (either by biology or interaction) have different priorities...

 

Mr. lucky

[JustBreathe]

James M:

 

On the topic of a sexless marriage where the wife is the one who doesn't want sex, it is my belief that if a man approaches his wife in a fair manner, willing to meet her halfway to try to solve whatever problem they have in their marriage be it, sex, or something else, she should be willing to value his needs as much as she values her own. I believe most women do this, apparently not all, but most will meet halfway in an effort to keep their husbands happy.

 

If your wife isn't meeting you halfway and you have done everything you can, as you say, then she is purely selfish. In which case, you can put your foot down and demand, not ask, that she take your needs as seriously as she takes her own. Demand, don't ask, that she work with you to solve the problem. If she won't listen, then be upfront with the fact that you will seek sex elsewhere. That way, your wife knows the score. You dont' have the affair FIRST without giving her a real chance at working on your issues together. Would I agree to such an arrangement if I didn't want to have sex with my husband at all and our marriage was otherwise healthy? Honestly, and most emphatically, yes.

 

As for that bit about OWs sensing what men need, you are dead wrong. OWs aren't somehow different and more understanding of men's needs than other women. They aren't some angels bathed in white light spreading goodness and comfort to married men in need. They are merely using their married men in the same fashion as they are being used. They sense someone who is like them. Willing and able to use their anger and lack of commitment or inability to commit to their relationships to justify their cheating because cheating is fantasy, it's fun, it's play time. It's alot less work than keeping a relationship healthy. Both parties use affairs to fill whatever hole needs filling in their lives (pun intended).

 

So you see, a sexless marriage is a choice you make, you either put up with it or you don't. But you deal with it fairly either way, by being honest with her and giving her a fair chance before you have an affair.

Edited March 14, 2008 by JustBreathe

[JustBreathe]

It's my H's lack of honesty and his never having given me a chance to work on whatever issues he had which has killed our marriage. Not the affairs themselves, the physical act. The lack of faith, loyalty, and respect for me and our marriage has been the death of our marriage. The clandestine deceptive nature of the affairs. The failure to give me a fair fight at keeping our marriage healthy.

 

Instead of working with me, he chose extreme destructive and self-centered behavior, betrayal of me, sharing himself with other women. These are the things which have injured me.

 

So, like James M says, if things are worse than ever, then he has only himself to blame. He chose it, not me. I would never have made the choice to betray him and leave him bleeding and scarred to prove some point, to supposedly make me understand something.

 

I deserved a fair chance to help him heal the things that were broken in our marriage and was not given that. He never spoke to me about anything.

Edited March 14, 2008 by JustBreathe

[twice_shy]

It doesn't sound to me from your posts like divorce has equaled heaing for you. You don't sound healed, you sound like you're still hurting a lot. I hope you can heal soon I am just trying to say that just because you feel divorce equaled healing "in your case" does not mean it automatically equals healing for everyone who was betrayed.

 

Nice try.

 

You spout bitter remarks to everyone who's on either side of infidelity in a marriage

 

 

Again, quit lying. I have NEVER berated or been "bitter" towards a BS. I sympathize with them.

 

 

and you encourage people to get divorced after infidelity.

 

You bet I do. That is the way I see it. Everyone has an opinion, opinions vary, and they are going to be all over the board.

 

If everyone gave the same advice, then this board and counselors would be obsolete, wouldn't they?

 

 

That is not what someone who is trying to heal, recover and work on their marriage needs to heal.

 

 

So you are saying that because I advice divorce, I have not healed?

 

 

Just because that's what you did doesn't mean it's what works best for everyone, and I think it's rude of you to be mean or discouraging to people who don't feel that divorce is necessarily the best solution after infidelity.

 

I have never been rude to anyone that I advised to divorce that is on the betrayed side of infidelity.

 

I think its rude that someone would cheat. I think its rude that someone would cheat, has no interest in their partner, yet won't divorce out of fear of losing money, house, kids, etc.

 

 

You asked for some examples so here are some I've found just by a quick once-over of your past posts. The italicized portions are your own words from previous posts.

 

(You just told me you never berate anyone who has chosen to stay with their spouse after infidelity. However, in this post, you call someone a "twitterpatted fool" for loving someone who betrayed him):

Thats because he is a twitterpated fool. How anyone can love someone so much that would bed down with someone else is beyond me.

 

if she doesn't have a backbone and plays the submissive role and lets him walk all over her

(Again, here you berate someone who chooses to stay with someone who has cheated on her).

 

First you don't even notice the context in which that was said. This person was asking a question of a friend of his, not for himself.

 

Secondly, it was a precise description of the problem. If a friend came up to me with that same story, I'd have to take him out for a beer and I'd call him a twitterpated fool. Not out of being mean, but because I want him to realize that is EXACTLY how he is being.

 

So sorry, your example fell way short. That wasn't berating. Berating would be calling them a stupid imbecile and that they deserved to be cheated on. I'd want any friend of mine to give me a verbal, firm, but not vulgar, slap in the face if I was being a fool for some unworthy cheater too.

 

And here you discourage people from staying married and say they should get divorced after infidelity:

 

Arch, save your breath, or fingers I should say. She doesn't want to hear that. She only wants to hear how great it can be again.

 

Even if there are supposed "success stories" out there, that doesn't mean everything is all well and good.

 

Have you considered divorce? In my view, there is no good reason to stay...

 

Yup I said that, but what part of saying that she doesn't want to hear that is berating?

 

That person took the advice of several people in that post and basically told them in no certain words that they were full of crap.

 

So again, I told Arch the truth, that she didn't want to hear it.

 

And what is so berating about telling the truth as I see it that there is no good reason to stay with a cheater?

 

Again, your example fell short and I know you really strained yourself to try to come up with an example.

 

So what is your point in being here? To tell everyone who has experienced infidelity to get divorced? It sure sounds like it. Obviously some people do not want that option for themselves, so why spout such discouragement and name calling? Why not try to be positive and see that some marriage do work after infidelity even if yours didn't?

 

So bascially my opinion doesn't count and everyone should be giving people who have been cheated on the same advice??

 

Get real.

 

Never mind, I'm sure I'm wasting my breath.

 

Yes, you are.

 

 

I was just trying to explain why I find your posts offensive and not helpful.

 

Have you ever been a cheater?

 

 

It doesn't really matter though, because I know a lot of people who have happy marriages after infidelity so I completely disagree with your opinion and what bothers me is that you fail to recognize it's just an opinion, it's just what you did, not what everyone should do. Most marriage therapists around the country would disagree with you and I do, too.

 

And I am not going to sit here and tell you that your opinion is crap because I don't agree with it, unlike you.

 

I believe what I believe, and you can believe what you believe. you can either leave it at that, or keep trying to make a fight about it.

[twice_shy]

Because many women use sex to manipulate their husbands.

 

Maybe you are right. Maybe Scriv's wife did deserve what he did to her.

[Mz. Pixie]

Maybe you are right. Maybe Scriv's wife did deserve what he did to her.

 

I never said she deserved what happened to her, ever. What I said was she created a condition that made her marriage vulnerable to an affair.

[twice_shy]

I never said she deserved what happened to her, ever. What I said was she created a condition that made her marriage vulnerable to an affair.

 

Not much difference as far as I'm concerned.

[Mz. Pixie]

Why are you so certain that it wasn't HE, with his overbearing, arrogant attitude that comes through loud and clear on this forum, which caused her to want to positively *cringe* at the thought of having sex with him? As for your comment about women "withholding sex" because of "resentment," if your husband treated you like crap on an evening out, and then you come home still feeling lousy and without an apology from the lout, would you feel particularly "loving" toward him? Or do you just lay down and spread your legs for your husband because it is, after all, the way women have to act to keep their husbands from straying?

 

I would not feel particularly loving towards him, no. Would we have sex? Probably not.

 

Where did I ever say I just lay down and spread my legs because that's what you have to do to keep your husband???

 

No one is saying this- you're using it as a defense mechanism.

 

But would I deny him sexual pleasure on a regular basis? No.

Because I don't want to and because we rarely have a fight that drags on.

We also make a point to let resentment go in our marriage. On both ends.

 

Scriv's been posting here for a while and I tell you what I read in his posts.

He's very angry- and I can relate to that anger. I think that he never came here until he'd already made the decision to cheat because he's so angry. I see alot of hurt behind the anger in his posts. But that's just me.

 

My husband's exwife left him for another man. He went to counseling alone for a long time. Because he wanted to see what he had done to make their marriage vulnerable to an affair. And he did see the things that he had done and he will tell you that he takes responsibility for those things. He's never ranted and raved and blamed it all on her- because counseling helped him see what he needed to do to have a healthy marriage that works.

 

Part of my understanding of men's sexual needs come from reading books, forums, and from my own husband. When he related to me how he felt when his exwife would deny him sex it broke my heart. I never really truly got it until then. It's a fundamental rejection of who they are for many men.

I just think it's sad that more women do not get this.

[Mz. Pixie]

In a marriage, you could meet ALL my needs EXCEPT sexual frequency and quality and I wouldn't be happy.

 

Mr. lucky

 

This is what I'm saying is true for most men.

[eeyore1980]

That's nice that you do these things for your wife, but your post seems to be assuming that SD puts as much weight on making HIS wife happy since we are, after all, talking about their marriage. What makes you think he is? His arrogant posts belie that assumption - at least for me.

 

Exactly! This is why I have felt so strongly about this thread, because a lot of the posts are THE SAME EXACT THINGS I have heard over and over from my husband. I can identify with this situation, just on the other side of it.

[Mustang Sally]

So.

Here is what we DO know has happened in SD's marriage regarding his and his wife's efforts to "fix" the problem(s), as per his responses to my questions and others'.

 

1) They - at some point - went to counseling. She wanted to stop going, so they did. I am not certain where the counseling fits into the timeline with relation to his cheating.

 

2) He states he has asked her what her issues in the relationship are. She implied (or stated) there were none. She implied satisfaction with the state of things (of course, this was before she knew he was cheating). Despite him confirming that - at least for him - there was significant emotional distance in the M.

 

I think those are the main answers to the questions of what effort was expended that I have been able to glean from all of this and his responses. Please feel free to correct me or add to that if I misrepresented something or omitted an important point.

 

I just thought, in light of all of the speculation and conjecture going on, that this might be a helpful reminder for the discussion.

[mrmaximum]

Excuse me, there are biological factors, scientifically documented, that can affect a woman's libido. And I guess if a man is a sociopath, that would be a biological factor, as well.

 

You sidestepped the question, you didn't answer it. Are you a politician?

 

You posted essentially that a woman shouldn't lose interest unless there is a biological problem holding her back. My post simply was to illustrate that there are cases where the woman is otherwise healthy yet still doesn't meet her husbands needs. What you posted could also be applied to men as well in terms of meeting emotional needs. Are all the women who post here who've engaged in emotional affairs or who are in bad marriages where their hubby's don't pay any attention to them married to sociopaths, or do are they men who simply forgot the fact that they have to work on their marriages?

 

The one factor that I see popping up in this thread over and over agian is the idea that if a woman isn't meeting her hubby's needs, it's HIS fault. I've seen post after post of people relating what I'm saying and someone always comes back with "It's they way you approach her, did you think about that? Are you good in bed, maybe that's the reason why she doesn't want to sleep with you Scriv. You know a woman's health must be taken into consideration!!!" It's like no one wants to confront the fact that just as there are men who have forgotten how to treat their wives, there are women who are equally as guilty. Here is the deal as much as some may not want to realize, there ARE indeed some women who you can treat VERY well and they will STILL not meet that very basic and important need even though that are healthy and have no other reason.

 

Hey, I can speak from experience because like Trialbyfire, I too was in a relationship where I busted my heinie to make my SO happy and in the end it resulted in little to no 'fun time' for me and that was no fun for either of us in the long run. When I asked her about it, because I had heard that communication is key and getting mad in this regard never helps, she just gave me some red herrings and excuses. I tried to be there and assist as much as I could, still no luck. I'll agree with you that there maybe some health factors at work for some women, but not all, sorry, this is what some of the other posters have been trying to relate. Not all women get the fact that they need to be physically intimate with their husbands to keep the marriage strong.

 

If there indeed is some sort of healthy dilemma, tell him, don't let it stay bottled up, who does that help? If you are supposed to be a team, then work on this issue as a team, yeah? I would bet that there may be some health issues that can't be rectified, but are there not some which can? Not meeting each other's needs will rot the marriage from the inside out, think of it this way, if the wife cooks the meals in a household and then has an accident and can't cook anymore, does that mean that the family starves? She has a health issue, what's going to happen now? Provisions have to be made (and no, I'm not talking about cheating) either someone else learns to cook or the local take out joints will be getting a lot of business for the next little while.

 

What's my point there, she's injured, but the family still needs to eat, comprende? This same talk could be applied to men who think that they no longer need to romance their wives after marriage. Women still need that and it is necessary, get me? Heck, I even heard this same issue talked about by a preacher, his EXACT words where "Guys, pay attention to your wives, ladies jump your husbands." Compromise is key in a relationship, two people have to meet halfway in order to make any headway. I will never say that a woman should just get on her back and take it if her hubby is a jerk, however there are a lot of women out there who simply don't understand that physical intimacy is to men what emotional itimacy is women.

[JamesM]

James M:

 

On the topic of a sexless marriage where the wife is the one who doesn't want sex, it is my belief that if a man approaches his wife in a fair manner, willing to meet her halfway to try to solve whatever problem they have in their marriage be it, sex, or something else, she should be willing to value his needs as much as she values her own. I believe most women do this, apparently not all, but most will meet halfway in an effort to keep their husbands happy.

 

I think if you asked my wife if I have done this, she would say yes. I could relate my history to show this, but this is not my thread. When I read SD's posts (unlike others who read them), I read anger and not arrogance. Yes, his words sound like it is his wife's fault and not his, but yet, I read that he believes it is his fault somehow. Probably my own interpretation.

 

Interestingly, I had a similar email with the woman who is recovering from an affair. Like you, she thought if he had come to her honestly before the affair, things would have been different. Yet, she said, as I really think about it...unfortunately, I don't know if I would have realized how serious he really was or how hurt he really felt.

 

Sadly, for many, it DOES take an affair as a wakeup call.

 

If your wife isn't meeting you halfway and you have done everything you can, as you say, then she is purely selfish.

 

Yes and no. Think of it this way. If I am hungry and you are not, will you be suggestive of a big steak dinner? And if I say I would like to have a big steak, would you feel the desire if you are not hungry? And if you did agree to dinner, I am guessing that you would have a few bites to please me, but in reality you would not enjoy those bites.

 

From my research, many times this is compared to what someone married to a person with a low libido deals with regularly.

 

So while it is easy to say SD did not honestly tell his wife his concerns, it probably is not reality.

 

In which case, you can put your foot down and demand, not ask, that she take your needs as seriously as she takes her own. Demand, don't ask, that she work with you to solve the problem. If she won't listen, then be upfront with the fact that you will seek sex elsewhere.

 

I did. Ultimatums do work for awhile. And for four months we had incredible sex. This actually deepened my thoughts. Why did the sex not last? Whose fault was that? Yes, I asked.

 

My personal analysis is that the good sex was from a desperation deep inside of her that said if she did not make me happy, then she would lose me. And since she did not want to lose me, she felt the desire to show me how much she loved me. That was her motive.

 

You dont' have the affair FIRST without giving her a real chance at working on your issues together. Would I agree to such an arrangement if I didn't want to have sex with my husband at all and our marriage was otherwise healthy? Honestly, and most emphatically, yes.

 

I agree. Truthfully, looking back you may say this, but honestly would you not wonder if sex was more important to your husband that a marriage to you? Would you not wonder if your feelings and concerns mattered to your husband? Would you not wonder if you were no longer attractive to him?

 

And IMO, I am wondering if your marriage would even last. My guess is that it is not all about sex, and then he would have found another woman...which you had unknowingly allowed.

 

As for that bit about OWs sensing what men need, you are dead wrong. OWs aren't somehow different and more understanding of men's needs than other women.

 

No, they are people. But the ones who appeal to a man who is frustrated at home are the ones who actually treat him as a man and accept him for who he is. Funny thing is...if he ever married the OW, he would have just as many problems as before...maybe just different ones.

 

 

Both parties use affairs to fill whatever hole needs filling in their lives (pun intended)

 

:lmao: THAT was good!

 

So you see, a sexless marriage is a choice you make, you either put up with it or you don't. But you deal with it fairly either way, by being honest with her and giving her a fair chance before you have an affair.

 

Yes, it is a choice, but it is not always a simply choice to leave. "Children, I am breaking up this family because your mother does not want to have sex with me once a week." How will that go over?

 

But, if mother says, "I am leaving your father because he cheated on me," this is considered admirable by many. Nobody bothers to ask if he had a good reason, because there is no good reason to cheat even if it is okay to set up the situation for an affair by deciding that physical and imtimate love is no longer necessary.

 

Yet the fact is if mother does not want to have sex with father, she has basically given HIM the ultimatum: "Sex is no longer important to me. You can divorce me, put up with it or have an affair. But mark my word, you choose to have an affair, I will be the victim and divorce you. You choose to have divorce, you will lose your family. So, the choice is yours, but guess what...reality is...the only choice you really have is to put up with it."

 

No, no one says those words to each other, but they are implied. I am guessing that ScrivDog faced similar situations even if he comes across as arrogant to some and uncaring to others. Based on my own experiences, I would say those appearances cover up the pain and anger he feels inside.

[Ladyjane14]

The sad and simple truth is that people just don't get it sometimes, some men think that if they work hard that is good enough for their wives and some women think that if they clean the house and raise the kids and do the chores, that is good enough for their husbands.

 

Exactly.

[eeyore1980]

James M:

 

 

As for that bit about OWs sensing what men need, you are dead wrong. OWs aren't somehow different and more understanding of men's needs than other women. They aren't some angels bathed in white light spreading goodness and comfort to married men in need.

 

STANDING OVATION!!

 

My husband's other woman, the one who would really listen to him, really cared about him, blah, blah, turned out to be bi-polar off her meds. She had an affair with her boss, her H found out and divorced her (She told my H she divorced him because he would come home and get drunk and pass out every night...), her husband was actually working 2 and 3 jobs to support her in style and comfort, 37 and her parents moved her and her daughter back in with them because she wouldn't clean her house, wouldn't take care of her daughter, and had a nervous breakdown when she got mold in her refrigerator (she told hubby she just couldn't afford to live on her own) blah, blah, blah. H spent 10 months drooling over his dream woman, it took me 3 days to find all this stuff out, and even more. As painful as my situation has been, I can't help but appreciate the comic relief!

[mrmaximum]

I just think it's sad that more women do not get this.

 

That's the part that I find sad as well. I do know that men and women are different and that there are a good portion of women can't just jump into the sack for some woohoo, however, that doesn't negate the fact that it is a necessary part of a relationship and if one spouse is constantly turning down the other's needs, you can't realistically expect the marriage to last. I will never condone cheating as it just makes the situation worse, but I think more relationships would withstant the test of time if there was a lot more listening done on either end. If you feed your spouse at home, they won't go looking for it elsewhere.

[eeyore1980]

It's my H's lack of honesty and his never having given me a chance to work on whatever issues he had which has killed our marriage. Not the affairs themselves, the physical act. The lack of faith, loyalty, and respect for me and our marriage has been the death of our marriage. The clandestine deceptive nature of the affairs. The failure to give me a fair fight at keeping our marriage healthy.

 

Instead of working with me, he chose extreme destructive and self-centered behavior, betrayal of me, sharing himself with other women. These are the things which have injured me.

 

So, like James M says, if things are worse than ever, then he has only himself to blame. He chose it, not me. I would never have made the choice to betray him and leave him bleeding and scarred to prove some point, to supposedly make me understand something.

 

I deserved a fair chance to help him heal the things that were broken in our marriage and was not given that. He never spoke to me about anything.

 

My situation is exactly the same as JustBreathe's. There was no discussion by him to me, no chance to fix things. No, I asked him repeatedly to help me with our marriage, and it went in one ear and out the other. He told me straight to my face he didn't really want a divorce, he just told me he did so I would say no and try to fix it. Talk about a power trip. This is nothing but a control issue. As far as his affair, I don't know if it was more than an EA, and if he is finally telling the truth, a pretty mild one at that. It is all the other stuff that has finally pushed me over the edge.

[Mustang Sally]

You know, this is just my opinion on SD's (and others') situation from following his posts since I came to LS.

 

I think he is as JamesM described above. Angry. Maybe some arrogance is showing through, but MY interpretation of his wife is that she was placid, resentful (I'm not sure yet about what), and content to apply HER standards ("I will not value your feelings about our sexual - or lack thereof - relationship") to their marriage while disregarding his.

 

I do not know if he communicated his thoughts and needs effectively to her or not. May never really know that. But I suspect that even if he HAD...she might have been a woman who let it go, anyway.

 

All those who say every woman will come to the table with her man if he just does/says/is X, Y, and Z is either not truly objective or is way overusing the benefit of the hindsight that they have gained from their own personal relationship mishaps.

 

I KNOW women can be manipulative and resentful where sex is concerned. Why do I know this? Because I have been one. And I come from a long line of them. Unfortunate, but true. The happy ending in my case is that I have seen the light. I had one of LJ's so called "lightbulb moments." Thank God for that. Truly. I would have surely turned into a shrew that most certainly would have been either cheated on or divorced (or both) by my husband, and I would likely have never been able to make a marriage work long-term. Why? Because I would have never been able to see the error of MY ways. And how I was so stuck in my own self-serving thinking that I was completely incapable of conceding there was another version to the history of our relationship than the one that I was writing.

[JamesM]

 

My husband's other woman, the one who would really listen to him, really cared about him, blah, blah, turned out to be bi-polar off her meds. She had an affair with her boss, her H found out and divorced her (She told my H she divorced him because he would come home and get drunk and pass out every night...), her husband was actually working 2 and 3 jobs to support her in style and comfort, 37 and her parents moved her and her daughter back in with them because she wouldn't clean her house, wouldn't take care of her daughter, and had a nervous breakdown when she got mold in her refrigerator (she told hubby she just couldn't afford to live on her own) blah, blah, blah. H spent 10 months drooling over his dream woman, it took me 3 days to find all this stuff out, and even more. As painful as my situation has been, I can't help but appreciate the comic relief!

 

But the comic relief in this situation is that she filled a place that was empty.

 

It has been said so many times that the OW never looks as good as the W. And usually it is true. So what was the attraction if this is all about sex? The OW whether by instinct or luck KNEW how to make him feel special again. Was it simply by providing him with a hole or was it through sex and admiration that she made him feel something that his wife had not done for him in years?

 

And maybe it was his fault that his wife never felt this way, but was this communicated to him or did he ignore her communications? (And yes, this happens).

 

I am not considering an affair by any means, but having personally experienced all of the feelings of many guys who do choose affair, I understand WHY.

 

What I have never understood is how a woman can stand back and say that it was a personal flaw in the cheater or that the BS had NOTHING to do with the fact the his or her spouse chose an affair.

 

Think of it....if a man came to his wife and said that I feel that you do not appreciate me through sex, what would be the response?

 

Or is he said that I have tried over and over to tell you what I am missing, I am divorcing you...what would be her response?

 

I can tell you what my wife would say: "So this is all about SEX?" What would YOU say?

 

Yet inside, I wonder if that is truly believed.

 

Until both people understand that each person needs to be as committed to every area of a marriage, then no marriage will thrive and maybe it will never survive.

[nadiaj2727]

 

And I am not going to sit here and tell you that your opinion is crap because I don't agree with it, unlike you.

 

I believe what I believe, and you can believe what you believe. you can either leave it at that, or keep trying to make a fight about it.

 

I never said your opinion was crap. My points were that your posts sound super hostile and defensive, and that you don't try to see anyone else's opinion but your own. I don't feel I'm the one trying to make a fight about anything. You are the one calling me a liar. I don't see any point in trying to engage in a meaningful dialogue with someone who does that. So I am going to stop trying. I certainly agree with you that we have different opinions, and I have no problem leaving it at that. Ciao.

[Ladyjane14]

My wife loves the fact that I am her best friend and confidant. It is very important that we maintain the emotional connection. For me...this is work in a good sense. She likes to have lunch with me and share her morning. She likes to have coffee with me when she can. This is her way of connecting, and it is a way that I can show her my admiration. She likes me to be a listener and critic. And she thinks I am a great one...her words.

 

Without this, she feels that I do not care for her. She feels that I do not love her. When I do not want to spend that time with her, she feels that maybe I am interested in someone or something else more than her. While it is not true at all, I can find myself tired or too busy to have lunch or coffee. And at night, when I want to watch the March Madness finals, she wants some time together after the kids are in bed.

 

This is important to her.

 

And that is how sex is to me. I have learned to enjoy those times together with her. I have learned to look forward to them. I have learned to adjust my schedule as often as possible so that she has the priority. And hardest of all, I have tried to put my attention on her instead of the latest game.

 

This is marriage.

 

And so when sex is something that is important to me, then how can I not expect the same respect and consideration? When making time for sex just one time a week is the way that I feel connected and respected and admired by her...why is this suddenly not important? Why would this be a need for me to "grow up?"

 

When I have committed to being there for her emotionally and not sharing my time with other women (because I really know that I could have many more EAs than I could ever have PAs. Women have always my listener skills and critic skills. And I say that humbly. But seriously, I know it is true), then why when I have also committed to be hers only physically does this suddenly end one day?

 

The marriage vows go both ways. AW, you have been married for over 30 years, and I assume happily, you are well aware of the sacrifices it takes. So, when a man sacrifices his desire for sex so that he "gets it" only from his wife, he does this out of complete love. But when he sees that she no longer views his desire in this area as important and can compare it to a hunger for food or a "want" that is not necessary. And when the woman who is dearest to his heart decides that he just needs to forget about it and be a big boy, then this turns into frustration and inward anger. He is put into a corner. Interestingly enough, this occurs many times after there are children. This makes divorce very difficult. When I look at my children, I do not want them to lose their family over my need for love and affection through sex. Instead, I suck it up and try to determine why she no longer wants sex?

 

Is it me? Is it her? Or is there someone else who is more important?

 

What can I do?

 

You ask the question that has been on my mind for many years. Even as I see some improvement in my sex life, I still ask what happened in the past? What one magic button could I push? Or am I just no longer physically attractive to her? Would another man do better? Is she better off without me even though she says no?

 

What have I done wrong?

 

And then I get angry. Why can she not tell me what I need to do? Funny thing is...I would move mountains to do what she asks. I would learn how to be better in bed, be a better listener, spend more time with her, and take care of the kids more. BUT...she says I do splendid in all of those areas. It is her she says, not me.

 

This is very frustrating, because I do not see change or an attempt to change the lack of desire.

 

Then I say if it is her, then I can no longer do anything. If it was me, then at least I could do something. But I am helpless and destined to a sexless marriage, unless she decides to change. This is unfair.

 

So, since divorce is not an option due to the breakup of an otherwise happy home. And since it goes against my religious beliefs, I am stuck.

 

Some men when they reach this point will say that a divorce would be public and religious beliefs are minimal when compared to a sexless life. This leaves the affair as an attractive option IF the right person comes along.

 

Funny thin is...OWs sense this need and lack of respect and admiration. They provide that missing ingredient. They make this man feel like the man he felt he always has been. He now thinks that his wife truly did not love him. It was not her, or she would try to change if she loved him. It was not him, or she would ask him to change if she loved him. And this OW simply accepts him as he is...no change necessary. So begins the affair.

 

It is not a matter of growing, my dear, it is a matter of fulfilling the commitment made to one another at the marriage ceremony. The man has finally realized that all along, his wife has not been fulfilling her end of the bargain. Now it is his turn to let out all of that anger and be who he really was meant to be. Now he decides out of anger, since she no longer loves me, then I will begin moving on.

 

But why not divorce first? Because he DOES love his wife. It is a false illusion that he does not love her. His subconscious is crying for help. He has exhausted all means for change in his marriage. He hopes that this last attempt at change will cause her to wake up and see that his desires are or should be important to her. He hopes that the affair (in his own twisted way) will lead to a happier marriage.

 

Will it?

 

So many affairs are begun with a passive anger. And then the man is caught up in the passion, and he thinks he loves the OW.

 

But in the end, all is lost, and he is more unhappier than before.

 

All could have been prevented if open communication was given and recived by both partners when the problems first began

 

Impressive post... as usual. :bunny:

 

"Prioritize your partner's needs as if they were your own".

 

Like you, I'm on the other side of this thing... and that's the very simple rule that I took away the experience. And it has yet... to let me down, btw.

 

I can't control what my partner does. If he brings his 100% to the marriage every day, that's great, it's what I want... but I can't MAKE him do it. I can only control what I do. That said, I've found that it IS possible to influence his choice, to set the parameters for making a good choice easier for him... by going ahead and ponying up my 100% to the relationship.

 

Yeah, sometimes people get screwed over by an inconsiderate spouse. But they STILL have a choice of whether or not what they're getting is worth their time. They have a choice about how they're going to handle it. But what they DON'T have a choice about... is controlling their mate's choices.

 

Sometimes I think that's what all the fuss and frustration is about, that we can't control our partners. Their actions affect us in such direct and dynamic ways on a daily basis that we feel like we've lost control over our own lives when a spouse is mismanaging his/her choices. It feels like their should be something we can do about it, and yet there isn't. The only option is the same as before... to lay the groundwork for our spouse's choice as best we can, cross our fingers, and hope for the best.

 

Scriv's wife made choices. He made choices. Now, it's her turn.

[nadiaj2727]

As for that bit about OWs sensing what men need, you are dead wrong. OWs aren't somehow different and more understanding of men's needs than other women. They aren't some angels bathed in white light spreading goodness and comfort to married men in need. They are merely using their married men in the same fashion as they are being used. They sense someone who is like them. Willing and able to use their anger and lack of commitment or inability to commit to their relationships to justify their cheating because cheating is fantasy, it's fun, it's play time. It's alot less work than keeping a relationship healthy. Both parties use affairs to fill whatever hole needs filling in their lives (pun intended).

 

You are so right about that JustBreathe. In a new relationship (whether with an OW or between single people), there is always a tendency to be more caring, doting, ego stroking. OW may have a tendnecy to do even more of this because they are empty inside themselves and looking to find fulfillment from a married man... therefore they are going to pull out all the stops. Just the married man is going to "spoil" OW more than his wife. He has all the incentive to be super caring, understanding, great in bed, etc. She has all the incentive to do the same thing. Both of them want to keep the magical fairyland affair alive and kicking. That's a totally different dynamic than exists in a long-term relationship or marriage, where real life sets in and you know all your partners faults, good and bad, and you live with them on a daily basis. It's easy for OW to think "Oh my, what a swell guy... his poor wife is so neglectful." It's easy for MM to think "OW is my soul mate, she is so empathetic and she thinks I'm her hero." That's why affairs rarely work out... imagine ten years down the line, if OW and MM have a real relationship and no longer an affair of course, things are different. OW knows MM's good and bad sides and vice versa. Neither of them are going to be as willing to coddle the other. (However, if they want a good marriage they should be willing to meet each other's needs and put each other first... but MM and OW are rarely these kinds of partners or they wouldn't have had an affair to begin with.)

[twice_shy]

No, they are people. But the ones who appeal to a man who is frustrated at home are the ones who actually treat him as a man and accept him for who he is.

 

Of course OW do. They don't live with them and have to deal with the daily trials and tribulations of being married and raising a family that the wife does.