So I told the wife

[Mustang Sally]

You know how a husband can help his wife out in this situation (and by doing so, free his wife up more to get off the mommy-track more often)? He can help more with the housework and kids!

I think this is a great point, angie. And one that is made frequently in threads (similar to this one) where "sexless marriage" is the topic.

 

However.

I would also say, that women with what I like to call "Mommy Brain Overdrive" need to also be willing to accept the help when it is offered them. I have lived that one, too.

 

I think women are (societally? genetically? otherwise?) conditioned to be the nurturers. The givers. And it sometimes happens that even when a woman is becoming resentful about that role (self-imposed, or otherwise) of constantly seeking to meet everyone ELSE's needs before her own (the kids, the dog, the husband, his libido) and thus "losing herself," as we so frequently hear it described by these women...at the same time, she also takes a sort of perverse pride, if you will in being the one in the family who does do all of this self-sacrifice for the betterment of others in the family. Call it a martyr complex, if you will.

 

Anyway, my point is that sometimes the women who are the most resentful about "losing themselves" to the marriage and family demands are also the ones the most reluctant to give up the responsibilities they abhor. Talk about some serious cognitive dissonance for those gals. And I think the husband (probably usually without understanding exactly what is really going on in the wife's mind) is the one who ends up paying for it the most - by nagging, having sex withheld from him, petty arguments, etc.

 

This is not true for every couple, and I don't claim it to be. But just something to think about.

[twice_shy]

I agree. I've seen too many women all of a sudden lose the wife title and kick into mother mode. And mother mode doesn't usually make a good wife. Now is that a bad thing, not really. Can a mother still have the hots in the bedroom for her husband, absolutely! But things change when you are married and have kids.

 

In a traditional family, espcecially where the wife stays home with the kids, she has to deal with all the day to day family drama, while the husband goes off and has adult interaction all day, comes home, and still has his libido. I believe women just lose that because of their role in the family."

 

 

You know how a husband can help his wife out in this situation (and by doing so, free his wife up more to get off the mommy-track more often)? He can help more with the housework and kids!

 

I actually agree. While I don't think this guarantees a wife will respond to the magnitude that the husband is hoping for, I feel that putting up with the daily family routine is one reason for reduced libido in the mother/wife.

 

But its a start in addition to other things the husband could do to help his wife out of a rut.

 

but its easier for some weak men to just go out and have sex with other women, completely disprespecting the woman that bore his children.

that is just pretty damn pathetic.

[twice_shy]

These are some blanket assumptions that may not even be close to reality. Coming from a marriage that was virtually sexless for a number of years, I can say that MY WIFE would say that I was not self-absorbed nor was I lacking in the romance (ie gifts and attention) department. Her problems had nothing to do with me. However, if I had followed your advice, my frustrations would have led me to an affair. Why? Because after trying everything to not be a self-absorbed husband, I would have given up.

 

What was behind a lot of it? Health issues that were not detectable or easily noticed.

 

So, rather than read ScrivDog's marriage for him, let's take him at his word.

 

Once again, it is easy to throw all of the blame on the cheater when reality shows that both are responsible.

 

Then go back and read all of his posts to other people. Geez, its all i could do to keep from posting something along the lines of, "oh for christ sake shut the hell up already."

 

I think if you go back and read his posts, you'll find he makes those "blanket" assumptions all the time about women. Its clear he has some sort of loathing for women in general, except when he is cheating with them on his wife.

 

Bottom line, after reading his posts, its clear he thinks that women see marriage as a license to stop sex, so why doesn't he just get a divorce and never walk down that path again? That way he can be guaranteed his sex.

[twice_shy]

These are some blanket assumptions that may not even be close to reality. Coming from a marriage that was virtually sexless for a number of years, I can say that MY WIFE would say that I was not self-absorbed nor was I lacking in the romance (ie gifts and attention) department. Her problems had nothing to do with me. However, if I had followed your advice, my frustrations would have led me to an affair. Why? Because after trying everything to not be a self-absorbed husband, I would have given up..

 

No, if you would have followed my advice and became that self-absorbed husband, you would be getting a divorce.

[JamesM]

Well I'm not going to sift through every single post to prove anything, if you want to look through them all, and even this isn't the complete list, here you go --> http://www.loveshack.org/forums/search.php?searchid=3324890&pp=25&page=13

 

Of course you won't take the time, but you can easily make an assertion that he loathes his wife. I did not make that assertion, and I may not reach your conclusions. While you do not have to answer to me, you should at least respect SD by showing him where he shows this utter disrespect. You lose credibility when you make accusations without evidence.

 

BTW, your link did not work.

 

Here is just one of the posts I found interesting. It shows his attitudes towards women in general, and if he thinks this way about women in general, he DEFINITELY thinks this way about his wife.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=948204#post948204

 

Since you did not quote the post here, I will do so.

Oh, wake up already!

 

Women pretend to enjoy sex (hell, they actually might, but they can happily live without it) until they have a man legally shackled to them.

 

Then, it becomes a "favor" they "grant" the man.

 

Then, it becomes a chore.

 

Then, it ends.

 

All puffery about "alphas" aside, you will find this in a majority of marriages.

 

I've tried everything.

 

I even tried marriage counseling 8 times at $140 an hour. I checked with the OB/GYN. I bought her books. I bought ME books. I took over cooking. I do the cleaning when I can. I give her all Saturday off, while I watch the kids. I've paid for expensive vacations. I've gone in, out, and back in to shape. Wine, roses, candles...

 

But she knows she has me by the short hairs. I'm not gonna divorce and have my children turn into promisuous Gen-Y-esque male-attention-seeking cumwhores.

 

So I wait.

 

That is the whole post. While it reflects anger, it is not untrue of partners who have no interest in sex. It can apply to men as well.

 

As for his lack of trying in his marriage, this shows that he has tried everything. Whether he could have tried longer or different options, that is up for debate. But to say he is self-absorbed and has not worked at his marriage, I take him for his word. He has tried. And while I do not agree with all of his choice of words, I have read worse.

 

Has he ever wondered why the marriage is sexless? Could it be because her hormones have changed after having kids? Could it be her problem that she is stuck in a rut with the daily family routine?

 

The bigger question is...why has this not been communicated to him...by HER? Did it take an affair to make her sit up and pay attention? Sad.

 

In any case, he needs to be having loving, understanding conversasions about these things rather than going out and f####g whatever women he can stick his vienna sausage in to.

 

Read the post you linked me to.

 

So my question to scriv is, why the hell don't you just get divorced already and quit bitching, whining, and moaning about how women become after they have been married???

 

Perhaps under all of that anger lies love. And perhaps he finally gave up trying and chose an affair. Not what I condone, but maybe it is understandable?

 

If you hate marriage so much and think that every woman who gets married cuts off sex once the vows are spoken, then just get a divorce!!!

 

I think he vented his feelings about a partner who refuses sex for whatever purpose. And he is angry that this partner does not clearly explain why sex is no longer desired or needed.

 

Get a divorce and you can stick your little sprout in whoever you want then without the worry of having to come here and constantly bitch about women in general. Use them like the disposable play things as you see them after you are no longer married.

 

I think the anger you carry from your past experiences are coming through.

 

One thing I have learned. It is good to advise based on our own past, but it is not advisable to ignore the differences in another person's story.

 

SD, if you want your wife, then fight for her. If you do not, then make it simple and divorce her. You will live with the problems that divorce cause as you so carelessly stated above in the quote provided. However, by choosing an affair, you have destroyed much of the trust your daughters will have in men when they themselves date and marry.

[JamesM]

No, if you would have followed my advice and became that self-absorbed husband, you would be getting a divorce.

 

And I would have lost out on the wonderful wife I now have.

 

Much of her "recovery" (which is much more than actually wanting sex) was initiated by my research into her problems. Her health issues (thyroid and med complications) caused her to be self-absorbed into her own problems.

 

She gives me the credit more than I do. Yet if I had kept trying over and over again to improve myself, the results would never have happened.

 

Too often partners take all of the blame for the lack of sex in a marriage, when in reality, both partners are to blame. While my wife could not verbalize why she did not want sex, she could have taken more of the initiative herself to "fix" her issues.

 

Our feedback here should be to lead people to solutions to their problems. We should not use each cheater as an opportunity to vent our own anger for our own situations.

 

And I know that his situation may not be like mine, but when I read that he tried, and when I understand how he feels, I can see that much of his anger is borne out of frustration not apathy.

 

What SD should have done is past. What he needs now is answers for his future.

[whichwayisup]

Here is just one of the posts I found interesting. It shows his attitudes towards women in general, and if he thinks this way about women in general, he DEFINITELY thinks this way about his wife.

 

Are you sure about that? You live inside his head?

 

Obviously at some point he loved his wife to marry her and have children with her.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what the point is here - For you to bash him or to just let him vent about his life. Agree or disagree with his choices, it's his life. He has chosen the path he's on and now he has to live with the consquences of his actions. Let's focus on that stuff rather than tell him he's an old fashioned pig who thinks women should just STFU and stay in the kitchen.

 

Scrivvie has been around on LS a long time. He didn't have to open up and tell his situation, though he has and deserves some support or just to be heard if he isn't looking for advice.

[JamesM]

No, if you would have followed my advice and became that self-absorbed husband, you would be getting a divorce.

 

And let's not forget that many times divorce is just as much a choice of running from our problems as is an affair. Divorce can be easier than actually facing the issues that brought about the affair in our marriage.

 

I am in communication with a lady whose husband cheated on her two years ago. She chose to stay and resolve the issue. They have done well. While no marriage is perfect, theirs is much better than most now. She has faced the problem and decided how she contributed. He has done everything in his power to reassure her that his affair was a mistake. He shows his love every chance he gets. He shows his sorrow for his affair daily.

 

Many told her to drop the b*stard. She decided to try and fix the marriage. As of now, she loves him more than ever, and he is grateful to her for her forgiveness.

 

So, SD may have this happen. As a result, both may have gained the marriage that they had or always wanted.

[twice_shy]

Of course you won't take the time, but you can easily make an assertion that he loathes his wife. I did not make that assertion, and I may not reach your conclusions. While you do not have to answer to me, you should at least respect SD by showing him where he shows this utter disrespect. You lose credibility when you make accusations without evidence.

 

 

the evidence is in his posts and rants about women and marriage. Anyone can easily go back and read that.

 

and why should I respect a "man" that completely disprespects his wife by having sex with as many different women as he can?

[whichwayisup]

If you don't respect him as a person, that's your choice. But, if you are going to continue posting to him why not say something to help him through this process instead of bashing him.

I don't like how he's handled this, but hey, it doesn't matter what I personally think, I can still respectfully offer him up some advice, give him some constructive thoughts and ask afew questions.

[twice_shy]

And let's not forget that many times divorce is just as much a choice of running from our problems as is an affair. Divorce can be easier than actually facing the issues that brought about the affair in our marriage.

 

Or it could be that alot of people wouldn't ever want to settle for a spouse that cheated on them.

 

Ok, sure, it might be harder to tackle the issues in the marriage, but once one spouse crosses that cheating line, the betrayed are sentenced to a life of distrust, no matter how much they say they forgave them for it.

 

People can work on the marriage, but i believe they work on them for the wrong reasons. Do you think his wife will ever trust him again? Even if she came out and admitted her part in what went wrong with the marriage, he will now be a cheater to her.

 

So my question would be, why would anyone want to settle for living out the rest of what little life they have on this earth with a cheater?

[twice_shy]

If you don't respect him as a person, that's your choice. But, if you are going to continue posting to him why not say something to help him through this process instead of bashing him.

 

Because its clear by his posts he thinks all women just want to dump sex once they are married. Don't take my word for it, sift through his posts. Its like a broken record. He constantly rants about women and lack of sex once the vows are spoken.

 

He has it in his head and he isn't going to listen to anyone. Why bash? Well sorry, it pisses me off. Alot of the rest of us men who wouldn't stoop to the levels like he does are judged by the rest of the jerks out there.

 

sorry, it pisses me off.

[Trialbyfire]

In forcing her hand by spilling the beans, Scrivdog has taken the passive-aggressive route for once again, trying to control. Nothing said here will change his mind because the decision lays with his wife, the one he cheats on. Whatever choice she makes will drive both their futures.

[JamesM]

the evidence is in his posts and rants about women and marriage. Anyone can easily go back and read that.

 

It may be your interpretations based on your own experiences. Yet his comments can also be seen as anger based on his experiences of a frustrating sexless marriage.

 

Again, yes, we can take the time to go back and read, but assertions against one's character are especially damaging. And when they are made without providing the evidence, then I guess we take them as simply baseless assertions.

 

and why should I respect a "man" that completely disprespects his wife by having sex with as many different women as he can?

 

You don't need to respect him. I have found that if I do not respect someone, then I cannot provide the advice he seeks. While I cannot respect SD's choices, this does not mean that I cannot respect him for still choosing to seek help for his marriage. It is not easy to lay out one's failures on a public forum. The purpose one has to believe is that this person seeks help.

 

So, SD seeks our help.

[JamesM]

 

So my question would be, why would anyone want to settle for living out the rest of what little life they have on this earth with a cheater?

 

Love. Commitment. Forgiveness.

 

Affairs do not need to be an end to a marriage. Many marriages have survived an affair and end up being a better marriage for it.

 

This begs the question...if one chooses to divorce and essentially not solve the problems that brought about the affair, what is going to prevent that person from choosing the same type of individual or have the same dynamics in the next marriage...which can result in the same problems?

 

Second marriages end in divorce in even greater percentages than do first marriages.

[twice_shy]

You don't need to respect him.

 

Then why did you tell me I should respect him?

[whichwayisup]

Because its clear by his posts he thinks all women just want to dump sex once they are married. Don't take my word for it, sift through his posts. Its like a broken record. He constantly rants about women and lack of sex once the vows are spoken.

He's kind of like Woggle, he doesn't mean ALL women.

 

Though he does have a point, there are MANY women who DO dump sex after marriage and having kids. He's allowed to rant, that's what this place is for.

 

Also, we don't know who he is offline, we only know bits and pieces of what he shares here. It's easy to assume the worst about someone when they post about certain things...He has made some bad choices, but that doesn't make him a monster.

[whichwayisup]

In forcing her hand by spilling the beans, Scrivdog has taken the passive-aggressive route for once again, trying to control. Nothing said here will change his mind because the decision lays with his wife, the one he cheats on. Whatever choice she makes will drive both their futures.

 

Bingo! The ball is in her court and now he can sit and wait. Which I think is what he has wanted all along, not to make a decision, to have it forced upon him.

[twice_shy]

Love. Commitment. Forgiveness.

 

Thats all very well and good, but that still doesn't lift the life sentence the betrayed spouse has of reliving what they betrayer did to them from time to time.

 

Yes they may love them. Commitment? Uh that was broken by the cheater. The cheater doesn't know the meaning of the word committment.

 

And forgiveness, sure, but forgiving doesn't mean forgetting and that doesn't mean the betrayed is going to get angry and suspicious from time to time.

 

What kind of life is that?

[Trialbyfire]

Bingo! The ball is in her court and now he can sit and wait. Which I think is what he has wanted all along, not to make a decision, to have it forced upon him.

He's already made some piss-poor choices. Maybe she will make better ones. I do hope that after forcing the choice on her, he won't continue to take a victim's attitude and blame her for the consequences.

[whichwayisup]

Well, now it's up to him IF he is given a chance to make it right again. If he is remorseful and willing to do everything necessary to win back his wife's love, respect and trust, and go to counselling with her, and on his own, anything can happen.

 

Some marriages DO survive infidelity.

[twice_shy]

It is not easy to lay out one's failures on a public forum.

 

I understand that. But he is not proposing this as his problem, he is laying this out as his wife's failure. He feels entitled to cheat.

[twice_shy]

Well, now it's up to him IF he is given a chance to make it right again. If he is remorseful and willing to do everything necessary to win back his wife's love, respect and trust, and go to counselling with her, and on his own, anything can happen.

 

Some marriages DO survive infidelity.

 

Now there is a concept I just don't buy in to, not completely anyway. Marriages do survive, but do they COMPLETELY survive? Everything might go on and things seem to get back to normal.

 

But do you really believe that deep down all is just fine and dandy with the betrayed party? I don't think so. they may have forgiven, and they may move ahead as if nothing is wrong.

 

but something is wrong, VERY wrong, one of them was outted as a cheater. One of them betrayed the other in the worst way possible.

 

And the betrayed will NEVER forget. They will always be suspicious and I don't believe they will EVER trust again, not 100% anyway.

 

So I guess it just depends on one's idea of what survival is when it comes to infidelity. If it means forgiving on the surface, bottling up any pain and resentment, and moving forward for the sake of moving forward, then yes, I guess it survived.

[whichwayisup]

I can't answer that because every person in their marriage is different. How Owl and his wife handled their situation and how they reacted, communicated, would be different to someone else's. Thumbingmyway and his wife, how they worked through their problems are different than Owl's, yet both marriages are back on track and thriving.

[Trialbyfire]

Here's the dynamic I see of people who have recreated their marriages.

 

The person cheated on, appears to take on the role of forgiving mother or father, to the transgressor. The transgressors, seem to be similar, in that they are kind of selfish and immature about expectations from their mates, in that they seem to rely on their mates, to drive their happiness.