Split Training

[veggie]

I have a two-part question I am hoping for some help with.

 

First, I need some help designing a split training program for my gym workouts. My current routine is to train 2x week (Monday and Thursday) and do a full body workout. I think I'm ready (maybe over ready) for a split routine. I'd like to do lower body Mon/Thurs and upper body Tue/Fri but I have a feeling that this may be difficult to accomplish unless I can do one of the upper body sessions at home with free weights. My other thought is to train Mon/Wed/Fri with 2 upper and 1 lower in week one and then 2 lower and 1 upper in week two. Any opinions on which of these schedules would be best?

 

Second, I am not totally clear on what movements to combine. For instance, would I do shoulders/chest/back together and then triceps/biceps/abs? I'm also a little at a loss as to where to allocate compound movements like chins and dips, which work several muscle groups. So my real need here is a reference that can help me figure out which movements to do which days.

 

Thanks!

[Ryan]

My current routine is to train 2x week (Monday and Thursday) and do a full body workout. I think I'm ready (maybe over ready) for a split routine.

 

Why?

 

I'd like to do lower body Mon/Thurs and upper body Tue/Fri but I have a feeling that this may be difficult to accomplish unless I can do one of the upper body sessions at home with free weights.

 

This is the classic mistake when trying to do a split. The purpose of doing an upper/lower split is to train HARDER, not train MORE. You would NEVER train on consecutive days. Are you seriously training so hard that you run out of energy before the end of your session? Are you truly pushing yourself to your limits? I think it's premature to even approach this idea.

[veggie]

Are you seriously training so hard that you run out of energy before the end of your session? Are you truly pushing yourself to your limits?

 

I try to. I thought that was the point.

 

 

I think it's premature to even approach this idea.

 

Would a better idea then be to stick with a full body workout 2x week but alternate which half of the body I start with each time? I tend to start with legs and find that I am really running out of steam by the time I get to the last few things I am doing (shoulder press and biceps in particular).

 

You would NEVER train on consecutive days.

 

I thought you shouldnever train the same parts on consecutive days, i.e., on a Mon/Thurs leg and Tues/Fri upper body split, I'd be training 2 days in a row but different body parts. Still no good?

 

I am open to all suggestions.

[Ryan]

I try to. I thought that was the point.

 

It is the point....but trying and doing are two different things. It takes time to push past your MENTAL barriers....it's not the physical ones that prove challenging. You will be able to push yourself tremendously harder if you spend a year of training to the point of "failure." You will look back and see how much more you can MENTALLY tolerate. Give it some time....profound intensity is a skill that must be learned.

 

Would a better idea then be to stick with a full body workout 2x week but alternate which half of the body I start with each time? I tend to start with legs and find that I am really running out of steam by the time I get to the last few things I am doing (shoulder press and biceps in particular).

 

That is the more sensible approach to an upper/lower split. Of course, I have to wonder what your routine is now. It is entirely possible that you can remove some of the supplemental movements and focus on the compound ones. List your current movements, sets, and repetitions.

 

 

I thought you shouldnever train the same parts on consecutive days, i.e., on a Mon/Thurs leg and Tues/Fri upper body split, I'd be training 2 days in a row but different body parts. Still no good?

 

That would work great....if we were made of Legos. Unfortunately, you can't detach a deltoid, put it in an amino acid bath, and set it up on a shelf. The human muscular system is very interconnected...it's not the cut-and-dry pieces that people often suggest. You also can't isolate your nervous, cardiovascular, and endocrine systems. The more you try to split...the more you are going to overlap and overtrain.

[veggie]

Ok, here is what I did today. This was my attempt to do more work on fewer movements. Previously, I was doing only 2 sets but lots more stuff. The first number is weight; the second number is reps, a comma designates a set (2-3 minute rest between sets, about a 3-4 second positive/negative on each movement).

 

Squat: 50-15, 60-15, 70-13

Leg Ext.: 45-14, 45-11 (I was pretty shot from the squats)

Leg Curl: 80-15, 90-15, 90-15

Rows: 30-15, 40-15, 40-15

Lat Pulldown: 90-15, 95-15, 95-15

Bodymaster Chin: 110-15, 110-10

Bodymaster Dip: 100-15, 100-15

Lateral Raise: 8-15, 8-15, 8-15

Biceps curls: 10-15, 10-15, 10-15

Ab chair thingy: 20-15, 20-15, 20-15

Crunches: 20-0, 20-0, 20-0

 

Anything I should add? Delete? Change?

 

Also, are you familiar with SuperSlow? What do you think of it?

[Ryan]

This was my attempt to do more work on fewer movements. Previously, I was doing only 2 sets but lots more stuff.

 

Holeeee CRAP!

30 sets?!?!?!?

Oh yes....there's much to be trimmed here. No wonder you are out of juice at the end.

 

Squat: 50-15, 60-15, 70-13

Leg Ext.: 45-14, 45-11 (I was pretty shot from the squats)

Leg Curl: 80-15, 90-15, 90-15

Rows: 30-15, 40-15, 40-15

Lat Pulldown: 90-15, 95-15, 95-15

Bodymaster Chin: 110-15, 110-10

Bodymaster Dip: 100-15, 100-15

Lateral Raise: 8-15, 8-15, 8-15

Biceps curls: 10-15, 10-15, 10-15

Ab chair thingy: 20-15, 20-15, 20-15

Crunches: 20-0, 20-0, 20-0

 

Look at what you are doing - 5 compound movements (squat, row, pulldown, chin, dip) and 6 isolation movements (the rest). That's not a favorable ratio. You're spending far too much time on movements that offer minimal results. Let's go through this step by step.

 

Squats - There's no need to be doing 3 sets here. Cut it back to AT most 2 hard sets...if not 1 set of 20 repetitions. If you are truly pushing yourself when you squat, you won't be able to do more. 20 rep squats are grueling as hell.

 

Leg Extension - Get rid of it entirely. There's nothing in this movement that squatting won't handle. Furthermore, it is inherently stressful on the knees due to the way the ligaments in the knee react when only your quadriceps contract.

 

Leg Curls - Also pretty much a waste of time. Squat hard and heavy (for you) and you won't have any need nor want to do this.

 

Rows - 2 sets will be sufficient here. If you aren't getting it done in 2, you won't get it done in 3.

 

Lat Pulldown - I WOULD say trim this to 2 sets as above.....except for one thing....

 

Bodymaster Chin - This is redundant, given that you are doing pulldowns. Both are essentially the same movement. Personally I would have you do chins and drop the pulldowns.

 

Bodymaster Dip - Fine.

 

Lateral Raise - Total waste of time. All parts of the shoulders are involved in compound upper body movements. Switch this to 2 sets of overhead press and it will be far more beneficial.

 

Biceps Curls - As you are sitting there reading this, perform the motion you do for chins. Then perform the motion you do for rows. Take note of what your arms do.....they CURL. This is unnecessary...get rid of it.

 

Ab Chair - No clue what this is...probably superfluous, especially considering....

 

Crunches - Weighted crunches are all you need to be doing....and 2 sets is fine once again.

 

 

I had a few general observations as well. I can tell that you aren't pushing yourself very hard by the way this is described....which is what I expected. You're doing a tremendous amount of repetitions with each movement, which means the weight you are using is getting away from challenging. If you're going to do 2 sets, go for 10 repetitions per set rather than 15 (or more). Start gradually increasing the weights you are using (5lbs per session) until it drives you down to about 10 repetitions. The best way to do this with 2 sets is to perform the first set for 10 repetitions and stop. Take a short break, then perform the second set for as many repetitions as you can. If you can do 10 or more, add 5lbs next time you train. If you can't do 10, stay at that weight until you are able to do 10. I would also try to cut down your break time between sets - rest is for after you finish training. The goal is not to do MORE work...it is to do BETTER work, which is HARDER work.

 

I would restructure your program like this:

 

Squat: 80-20+

Rows: 50-10, 50-10+

Bodymaster Dip: 90 (I think that weight is the amount of assistance, so 10 less is 10lbs heavier...but I could be wrong)-10, 90-10+

Bodymaster Chin: 100-10, 100-10+

Overhead Press: 20-10, 20-10+

Crunches - 25-10, 25-10+

 

The + means you are probably going to be able to do more than that number in those situations, since you don't STOP at that number unless you simply can't do anymore. If you exceed the + number, I'd say stop at 5 above it if you make it that far. Then add 5lbs next time. Eventually you'll reach your challenging weights.

 

Also, are you familiar with SuperSlow? What do you think of it?

 

I am quite familiar with it. Superslow is a subset of the training camp I come from, HIT (High Intensity Training).

 

Much of what is presented in Superslow is accurate and valid. They tend to be pretty scientific in their articles and presentations. I only have a couple of qualms with them. First, they can have a tendency to put people on programs with unnecessarily low volume. Second, they get a bit dogmatic about repetition speed. There are plenty of faster cadences that are still slow and controlled.

[veggie]

I had a few general observations as well. I can tell that you aren't pushing yourself very hard by the way this is described....which is what I expected. You're doing a tremendous amount of repetitions with each movement, which means the weight you are using is getting away from challenging. If you're going to do 2 sets, go for 10 repetitions per set rather than 15 (or more).

 

Well, believe it or not, until yesterday, I was doing 2 sets of 12 reps for everything. But the trainers at the gym keep beating me up and telling me that I need to do more movements, more reps and more sets. Hence the 3 set routine. Left to my own devices (which no one seems to want to leave me to), I prefer high weight with low reps to the inverse. The whole gym philosophy seems to be that the more time you spend the better your program is.

 

 

Start gradually increasing the weights you are using (5lbs per session) until it drives you down to about 10 repetitions. The best way to do this with 2 sets is to perform the first set for 10 repetitions and stop. Take a short break, then perform the second set for as many repetitions as you can. If you can do 10 or more, add 5lbs next time you train. If you can't do 10, stay at that weight until you are able to do 10.

 

Interesting. This is very similar to what I was doing only I was using sets of 12 as my reference. I have a question though: the weights you suggest below are well more than 5lbs over my current maximum. Are you upping them because you feel that by eliminating some of the unnecessary movements I'll be able to do more on the ones that remain in my routine? Or are you just hoping for my general collapse <g>?

 

I would also try to cut down your break time between sets - rest is for after you finish training. The goal is not to do MORE work...it is to do BETTER work, which is HARDER work.

 

Ok. Thanks.

 

 

I would restructure your program like this:

 

Squat: 80-20+

Rows: 50-10, 50-10+

Bodymaster Dip: 90 (I think that weight is the amount of assistance, so 10 less is 10lbs heavier...but I could be wrong)-10, 90-10+

Bodymaster Chin: 100-10, 100-10+

Overhead Press: 20-10, 20-10+

Crunches - 25-10, 25-10+

 

The + means you are probably going to be able to do more than that number in those situations, since you don't STOP at that number unless you simply can't do anymore. If you exceed the + number, I'd say stop at 5 above it if you make it that far. Then add 5lbs next time. Eventually you'll reach your challenging weights.

 

(Yes, you are correct on the bodymaster)

 

Just to confirm that I am reading this right. At my next visit to the gym, I should do a single set of squats at 80lbs. If I don't fail by 20 reps, I should do 5 more. If I still have energy and form after 25 reps, I should move on to the next movement. Then, on my next visit to the gyn, I would do the same thing only with 85lbs on squats. Is this correct?

 

If it is, let me ask the inverse question. Let's say I try 80lbs and can only do 1 or 2. Should I stay there and work my way to 20 or drop to 75?

 

 

I am quite familiar with it. Superslow is a subset of the training camp I come from, HIT (High Intensity Training).

 

Much of what is presented in Superslow is accurate and valid. They tend to be pretty scientific in their articles and presentations. I only have a couple of qualms with them. First, they can have a tendency to put people on programs with unnecessarily low volume. Second, they get a bit dogmatic about repetition speed. There are plenty of faster cadences that are still slow and controlled.

 

Is there a cadence you recommend?

 

Oh, and a last question: Do you happen to have a reference for form for the overhead press? I am not sure I know what his is (I am thinking it's one where you site and raise weights overhead. I have seen it done straight up and down and also with a rotation at the top. Not sure if this is right, though. There is also a machine called a "shoulder press" which could be it, too.)

 

Thanks for all the time you are taking with me, Ryan.

[Ryan]

But the trainers at the gym keep beating me up and telling me that I need to do more movements, more reps and more sets. Hence the 3 set routine. Left to my own devices (which no one seems to want to leave me to), I prefer high weight with low reps to the inverse. The whole gym philosophy seems to be that the more time you spend the better your program is.

 

That's exactly why I hate trainers...they are so clueless...generally told what to do by the owners who just want your money. They also tend to hound women wayyyyyyyyyy more than men.

 

What you must keep in mind is this: if MORE exercise is BETTER, then exercise ITSELF must be good. How many people walk out of the gym stronger and more fit? Zero...zlich....nobody. True exercise is exactly the opposite; it is a NEGATIVE process...it breaks down the body. It only serves as a stimulus for adaptation. The body does the adapting, but only when left alone to do so.

 

Interesting. This is very similar to what I was doing only I was using sets of 12 as my reference. I have a question though: the weights you suggest below are well more than 5lbs over my current maximum. Are you upping them because you feel that by eliminating some of the unnecessary movements I'll be able to do more on the ones that remain in my routine?

 

If you'd like to use 12 as your target rep count since you are familiar with it, that's fine. I added 10lbs to all of your movements as a jumpstart into progression...one-time deal. You will be still moving in 5lb increments. I'm quite confident that you can perform with that added weight. For example, on your rows you did a set of 15 with 30lbs, a set of 15 with 40lbs, and then another set of 15 with 40lbs. Now I want you to do 2 sets of 50lbs, 10 or 12 reps each. You're cutting your number of total repetitions in half, which means you will be able to move up your weights. I've done this before with people when chopping their volume back to realistic levels. You should be fine.

 

Just to confirm that I am reading this right. At my next visit to the gym, I should do a single set of squats at 80lbs. If I don't fail by 20 reps, I should do 5 more. If I still have energy and form after 25 reps, I should move on to the next movement. Then, on my next visit to the gyn, I would do the same thing only with 85lbs on squats. Is this correct?

 

Yep yep....your target is 20 and your limit is 25. Eventually you won't be going to 25 once you progress in your weights. You understand it quite well.

 

One other note about 20 rep squats....you typically do not do them in constant movement. What that means is, you want to get to the point where you can do the first 8-10 reps one after another before it starts getting rough. Then you pause at the top (bar still on your back), take a few breaths, and do a couple more reps. This process continues until you reach 20 (or your form fails, usually by starting to round your back). It is called breathing squats. Your current weight may not be so challenging as to force you to do this, but ultimately you want the squat set to be getting tough at rep 10. I PROMISE you, you won't think about another set once you're doing this.

 

If it is, let me ask the inverse question. Let's say I try 80lbs and can only do 1 or 2. Should I stay there and work my way to 20 or drop to 75?

 

Unless you have a seizure, you aren't going to get stuck at 1 or 2. Just last time you did 15 reps and 50lbs, 15 reps at 60lbs, and 13 reps at 70lbs. Now you're only doing ONE set with 80lbs. I don't think you're going to have a problem getting to 15...and probably well past it.

 

Is there a cadence you recommend?

 

I generally start people out with a 4 count lift and a 4 count lower...mainly because it is simple and people are generally familiar with 4 count rhythms. It's also a decent starting point because you are going to count seconds faster when you are under the gun, so aiming for 4 will still keep you slow and controlled. Longer cadences are fine...some people like counts in the 5-10 range per stroke....some people have different speeds for lifting/lowering (like 3/6). There's no absolutely correct cadence once you are in the range of slow and controlled. There's really no such thing as TOO slow....and when in doubt, err on the side of slower. Once you've got a year or two of training in, you will be able to "feel" what cadences are good for you on your movements and you won't have to count anymore.

 

Do you happen to have a reference for form for the overhead press? I am not sure I know what his is (I am thinking it's one where you site and raise weights overhead. I have seen it done straight up and down and also with a rotation at the top. Not sure if this is right, though. There is also a machine called a "shoulder press" which could be it, too.)

 

It sounds like you know what it is....overhead press is synonymous with shoulder press. I'll give you a basic description (starting from the bottom position).

 

Start with hands a bit wider than shoulder width such that your upper arms are straight up and down and parallel. Slowly push the weight upward. Stop your upward motion just before elbow lockout (same principle as with chest press and dips that we discussed before). Slowly lower the weight until your hands are approximately at eye level. Repeat. Forget the hand rotation.

 

 

 

Next time they bug you, tell those doorknobs working at your gym that you ALREADY have a trainer.

(and that he's dead sexy)

[veggie]

Next time they bug you, tell those doorknobs working at your gym that you ALREADY have a trainer.

(and that he's dead sexy)

 

Glad to hear it. Tell him to be at the gym at 6:30am sharp on Monday. :-)

[veggie]

I would restructure your program like this:

 

Squat: 80-20+

Rows: 50-10, 50-10+

Bodymaster Dip: 90 (I think that weight is the amount of assistance, so 10 less is 10lbs heavier...but I could be wrong)-10, 90-10+

Bodymaster Chin: 100-10, 100-10+

Overhead Press: 20-10, 20-10+

Crunches - 25-10, 25-10+

 

 

Ok, I've been mulling this and I see where it would work for upper body. But just one lower body movement? I know squats are effective, bit are they effective enough that one set of 20 twice a week is going to take care of my entire lower body? This seems unbalanced compared to the upper body work. Not challenging you, just really would like to understand the seeming disparity.

[Ryan]

But just one lower body movement? I know squats are effective, bit are they effective enough that one set of 20 twice a week is going to take care of my entire lower body? This seems unbalanced compared to the upper body work. Not challenging you, just really would like to understand the seeming disparity.

 

By all means...challenge me. Something doesn't sound right about it, so you're asking a question. This is what I encourage people to do.

 

The beauty of the squat (this also applies to deadlifts) is that it incorporates FAR more muscle than any other movement. Performance of a squat requires the effort of over 300 muscles in your body. The two largest muscle groups in the body (hips and thighs) are significantly active during a squat.

 

The reason a few more movements are typically necessary for the upper body is that all significant upper body movements go through the arms and shoulders. You cannot simultaneously be pulling and pushing with upper body musculature, so you can't really train all parts in one movement. With the legs, it IS possible to flex the knee and hip joints in one movement - a squatting motion.

 

Once you get to the point where you are doing HARD 20 rep breathing squats, you will fully understand how complete it is. See that little picture by my name? That's one set of squats done once every 5 days.

[veggie]

Ok, I went with your program today. I only made one modification, which was to add leg curls (don't yell!). And I adjusted a couple of weights (upward) when I found I wasn't struggling at all with the first set of 10. I think it is going to take a few times to figure out where I should be with the weights.

 

One thing I noticed is that it was really quick -- I was in and out of the gym in about 35-40 minutes. Is that right? I feel as though I am cheating.

[Ryan]

I only made one modification, which was to add leg curls (don't yell!).

 

I knew you would. So long as you're doing it after you squat and not holding anything back when squatting....not a big deal.

 

And I adjusted a couple of weights (upward) when I found I wasn't struggling at all with the first set of 10.

 

I thought I remember someone saying this might happen...who was that? I can't quite recall.....

 

I think it is going to take a few times to figure out where I should be with the weights.

 

That is to be expected. Don't make any more big jumps in the weights you are using. Go 5lbs at a time. If you're going twice a week, it won't take long before it will get challenging. You want intensity to be a gradual ramp-up....this helps prevent injury and keeps it from being a psychological scare (the "WOAH this is heavy" response).

 

One thing I noticed is that it was really quick -- I was in and out of the gym in about 35-40 minutes. Is that right? I feel as though I am cheating.

 

That sounds fine. You're not supposed to be in the gym very long. The point is to do HARD work....not LONG work. It feels odd right now because you're still settling your routine into a situation where it is really THAT hard. In a month, you won't have this same response.