Do atheists or people with the "wrong" religion go to Heaven?

[Arch]

The Christian heaven sounds boring, hell sounds way more fun.

[Enema]

So you seriously believe that God created the earth a couple thousand years ago?? Do you think he created dinosaurs? If you researched this you must have stumbled upon massive amounts of evidence that life existed long before you think your God created everything. How do you rationalize all of this?

 

The ways they must bend logic are pretty intense.

 

There's a guy on another forum I read who believe god created the earth 6000 years ago with embedded age, so that everything "looks" like it was made billions of years ago.

[Rooster_DAR]

What bakes my noodle is how any religious person can attempt to dismiss many of these things that science produces. Science is not perfect, but it's based on factors that provide better explanations than are provided by scripture in many aspects.

 

Almost any person I know that actively worships god (whichever one that it may be) will use abductive reasoning based on faith, and will not entertain an agnostic view of any other possibilities. Is it not possible (given how archaic our ancestor were) that many or all of these things were postulated out of skewed thinking?

 

A critical thinker or philosopher would not allow his/her upbringing or culture to deviate from intelligent reasoning. It's easy to look around, and rationalize life as being the gifts of a divine creator, but can't there be other ways? Why are we raised believing something that has been passed down over the years as being true?

 

Of course, there are many forms of reasoning with science as well, however scientists (real ones) are not confined to the bias of what they have been taught, but instead are more influenced by what the have learned. To be a true scientists, philosopher, and a person of great intelligence, we must fee ourselves from what we think is correct, and use real life research based on evidence to come at least a little closer to providing answers that make sense, and bring us a little closer to understanding who we are and where we come from.

 

Cheers!

[BIGGEST LOSER EVER]

Basically I've read the title of this and just this page so I'm not fully up to speed with the argument and debate. I've come out of a rough time (alcoholism etc..) and I've been re-examining my beliefs because of it-I went through an atheist stage, agnostic stage, Christian stage-right about now I'd class myself as spiritual.

 

There's an old book by Joseph Campbell called "A Hero with a thousand faces"-which I read when I was eighteen (many moons ago now lol!), which outlines how Budha, Jesus, Mohammed and basically just about every person or leading character in pretty much all world religions (if I remember rightly-there was a tribe in Africa that didn't fit into this framework)-fit into a framework, search it on wikipedia or google it because its an interesting read.

 

A few weeks back, I stumbled across an interview on youtube with george lucas who'd been a student of Campbell and he said something that I really liked; "I believe all religions are right.......they just all see a different part of the elephant". And if your a Christian-you have to remember that Jesus himself said that there are many roads leading to his father's house, granted there are contradictions in the bible and other holy texts, so I suppose either christians or atheists will come out and say-"but he also said 'I am the light' etc...."-but i really do think-or I hope, more to the point that god chases us-we've just got to be prepared to listen and just as there as many names for god-there are an equal number of roads to heaven.

 

I don't know if that answers your question, but thats what i believe......oh and as for atheists-I wouldn't have a clue, I'd imagine that god would be inclined to accept someone whose lived a moral life-despite of their beliefs, they do say that "to err is to be human, to forgive divine" after all........

[Moose]

So you seriously believe that God created the earth a couple thousand years ago??

No.....I really don't. And to be more accurate, no one, (man or woman) knows how old the Earth really is. AND, never will.

How do you rationalize all of this?

Well, let's use the next the response as an example:

The Christian heaven sounds boring, hell sounds way more fun.

If we knew everything in the here and now....we wouldn't have suffering, everyone would be on the same page, everyone would be following suit as a collective.

 

Now, how boring would that be?

 

Heaven isn't that place. BUT Hell is. Hell ain't no party, it's pretty much constant suffering, and by the way, if you believe in Hell, you also believe in an alternative.

 

The ALTERNATIVE I hold on to is a relationship with THE Creator, exposed to all of His Knowledge, Privy to all of His Secrets and Anserws to WHAT WE PERCEIVE as the un-explainable.

 

No, we Christians don't have that now, and even in what we call our, "Glorified" bodies, we won't be able to absorb His Magnitude instantly.....it would take 'infinity and beyond'.......sorry....that's probably a copyright.....

 

I'm going to stick to my religion, because I'm open to accept my FAITH, science, and the fascination of the un-explainable WITH the opportunity to explore constantly.

The ways they must bend logic are pretty intense.

Bend, or reinforce? One example.....'Carbon dating'......I can tear that one apart with my eyes closed. How about when pure sugar was deemed harmful, now it's good for us? How about cholesterol.....it ALL used to be bad....but now some is good, some is bad....I could go on and on and on and on and on......

 

THIS, is by design. So is.....BTW, this stupid Global Warming thing.....JEEEZZZZ don't get me started on that one!!!

What bakes my noodle is how any religious person can attempt to dismiss many of these things that science produces. Science is not perfect, but it's based on factors that provide better explanations than are provided by scripture in many aspects.

In all honesty, I can see where you're coming from. But the Scriptures where written for all audiences. Not just for the scientific society. If God wanted us to know all of that, He would've clued us in. Like I've said above, you, I or any of the greates minds on Earth will ever have ALL of the answers.

Almost any person I know that actively worships god (whichever one that it may be) will use abductive reasoning based on faith, and will not entertain an agnostic view of any other possibilities. Is it not possible (given how archaic our ancestor were) that many or all of these things were postulated out of skewed thinking?

And you've been a member of LS for how long? How many of my posts have you seen? Are we generalizing again?

use real life research based on evidence to come at least a little closer to providing answers that make sense

TO THAT.....I say AMEN!!!

 

Or in your lingo......"SWEET"

 

This is exactly what I've done.

[Lovelybird]

I don't think we can conclude either of those things from the limited information we have now.

 

I think what shadowofman is trying to say (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that there are a lot of questions we don't know the answer to yet.

 

A non-religious person will research these questions and our knowledge and understanding of how it all began is constantly progressing.

 

A religious person who says "god did it" instead of "I don't know, but let's find out" has limited themselves from "progressing" as no further research would be required if they're sincere in that belief.

Ok, you admit that non-believers don't know the answer. and

you assume that believers don't know the answer as well.

 

and non-believers seek for answers and absolute truth from RELY ON researching and discovering of the outside world, the world that can be seen and touched.

 

Believers seek for answers and absolute truth from RELY ON researching and discovering both outside world and innert world. they experienced God, and have real relationship with God, and they know God's charactors at some degree. the love and trust relationship with God enlarge their knowledge to the invisible world. Behind the outside tangible world there is a invisible source -- God who controls everything.

 

Where is God's presence, where is great joy and peace:love:. Human can invite God's presence into their lives, God's presence penetrate and prevail bitterness, unforgiveness, pride....God's presence keep our heart soft, keep our heart from not being hardened by the world. God's presence changes us from inside

[shadowofman]

JamesM, I agree that there are some very well educated Christians that could out critical think me. On the whole it is my opinion that faith smacks critical thinking in the face. This ties to my Abiogenesis example but a step to the side.

Everyone agrees that humans were not here forever. We were made or formed, with or without direction. Science has presented a case for evolution. Some Christians accept evolution as god's method. This is progressive thinking. Anyone that has faith in a 6 day creation story cannot progress because their faith holds them back.

 

We all believe in Abiogenesis, because we all believe life started somewhere and from non-life. Primordial soup or clay, whatever. Science is attempting to piece this process together through observable, material, non magical means. Christians can join in the piecing, or they can be content to say, "God did it!" That is not progression. If you believe it was clay and a "breath of life" because of your faith, there is nothing stopping you from explaining this process. And we are all waiting.

 

Just as faith smacks critical thinking, critical thinking smacks faith. Most of these theistic brains that could out think me, would argue in favor of evolution. The theist has had to adjust his faith from a earth centered universe to the universe we understand now. The "God of the Gaps" is getting smaller. He can always live outside space and time, that is until we look there as well.

 

For that matter, heaven used to float above the earth in the cosmos. It was mapped out and everything. Hell was at the center of the earth. Critical thinking has destroyed these notions, and now theists have moved heaven and hell to alternate dimensions. I believe they do exist, but only in the minds of believers.

[Arch]

if you lived in a world without challenges, without suffering and without trial and error then your life would not be worth living, because all these things drive innovation and expansion of science and the human mind.

 

Your idea of heaven is my idea of hell, if the only thing you wish to do is follow a book for the rest of your life then thats fine with me, but its not my choice.

 

Any god who tries to punish those who do not worship him is no god, if anything he is the devil, a god does not need to be worshiped - only ones with big egos covering allot of insecurity need to have people bow down to them.

 

I do <3 tho how all the religions say they are so holy even tho they are responsible for the killing and torture of millions of people.

[shadowofman]

I am reading Os Guinness's, "The Case for Civility" (which I recommend to every human being, atheist or religious).

 

I do <3 tho how all the religions say they are so holy even tho they are responsible for the killing and torture of millions of people.

 

When at one point I would have been willing to throw my hat in this camp, I am no longer willing. Religion's are simply used by people with these intentions. There are countless scriptures that do endorse rape and murder, but there are just as many that endorse love and forgiveness. Anyone can cherry pick anything they want out of scripture, and it is not the fault of the scripture, but the people and the conditions that cause people to do bad things.

 

You can believe that "god hates fags", or you can believe that god love the sinner but not the sin, or you can accept homosexuality as an expression of love that is in line with a benevolent god.

 

While I will continue to openly condemn faith as a virtue, I will no long blame religion for the evils of the world. That's the fault of the rich and misguided poor! (often misguided by religious leaders)

[Lovelybird]

IF you never experienced the love of God, it is understandable you claim 'heaven is boring'. if anyone really experienced God's love, they would long for going to heaven, to be with God

 

Suffering here on earth is necessary for us to grow to mature. why? because of our fallen nature. but heavenly being isn't so, they can be creative and mature and selfless without trials and sufferings

[Green]

How about dogs... do they go to heaven?

[Arch]

IF you never experienced the love of God, it is understandable you claim 'heaven is boring'. if anyone really experienced God's love, they would long for going to heaven, to be with God

 

Suffering here on earth is necessary for us to grow to mature. why? because of our fallen nature. but heavenly being isn't so, they can be creative and mature and selfless without trials and sufferings

 

If everything is perfect, then their is no reason to improve, their is no drive to better oneself.......................

[Lovelybird]

If everything is perfect, then their is no reason to improve, their is no drive to better oneself.......................

they don't need to improve like us, they are perfect, their energy won't spend on negativeness like us, they just need to be creative, to love, to care, and travel between galaxyes

[Arch]

they don't need to improve like us, they are perfect, their energy won't spend on negativeness like us, they just need to be creative, to love, to care, and travel between galaxyes

 

What drives creation?

 

The only thing that drives improvement is a to accomplish something.

 

Without any suffering then their will be no improvement of anything.

[shadowofman]

They could look down at the earth and create cures for disease. Or are they to busy creating disease?

 

Mark Twain wrote a great book called "Letters From Earth". He describes germs as God's true chosen people, and mocks humanities misinterpretation and ego to believe they are the chosen. It's an awesome read.

[Green]

do animals go heaven... the reason I ask is because I've heard people say yes to animal no to other religions which is a paradox in my opinion.

[Lovelybird]

What drives creation?

 

The only thing that drives improvement is a to accomplish something.

 

Without any suffering then their will be no improvement of anything.

 

For us, the conflict will bring improvement or detour. the conflict exists in ourselves, the conflict is between flesh and spirit; between selfishness and selfless; between limitation and unlimitation; between darkness and light...when the positive side in ourselves win, then we improve ourselves and become a little bit more closer to perfection. But many people aren't so, they only experience conflict and pain without progressing, their dark sides always win.

 

So suffering isn't a *must* in creativeness and improving. Then what cause creation and improvement? I think there is a source (God) who lead us and guide us to those positive things, even when a person didn't recognize God, God still is working in his/her life, and guide them toward him

 

we have conflict in ourselves because we have both selfish fallen natures and a soul craving goodness Love --God. Creation can happen without negativeness or suffering. many artists will sit there, then suddenly a new idea will enter their minds, a housewife can be creative when she nurture her child, and when that happen, they can feel great joy and a sense of connection to bigger meaningful world

[Lovelybird]

do animals go heaven... the reason I ask is because I've heard people say yes to animal no to other religions which is a paradox in my opinion.

I figured your last post was a pit

[shadowofman]

Great point. If they haven't accepted Christ then they should be barred like the rest. The people that say yes to Dogs in Heaven are expressing their wishful thinking over their faith in the scripture.

 

But then again, the scripture says that the righteous will inherit the earth where the lion lays with the lamb. It's all cherry picking, wishful thinking, and personal interpretation. I have even heard hell described not as a place of tooth gnashing and torment, but an absence of god. A black void of none existence. That works unless you enjoy the idea of people burning.

[Green]

I've seen depictions of the garden of eden (a place probaly alot like heaven) as a place where you could eat an animal and it would instantly heal and not go through pain. Was this because the animals in some peoples mind were thought to be part of heaven... or maybe just because people loved the idea of easy to catch animals that never die and always have meat ready for you...

[Citizen Erased]

I've seen depictions of the garden of eden (a place probaly alot like heaven) as a place where you could eat an animal and it would instantly heal and not go through pain. Was this because the animals in some peoples mind were thought to be part of heaven... or maybe just because people loved the idea of easy to catch animals that never die and always have meat ready for you...

 

I have also seen this. But I don't think Matt Groening is the best source of spiritual fact

[Lovelybird]

Great point. If they haven't accepted Christ then they should be barred like the rest. The people that say yes to Dogs in Heaven are expressing their wishful thinking over their faith in the scripture.

 

But then again, the scripture says that the righteous will inherit the earth where the lion lays with the lamb. It's all cherry picking, wishful thinking, and personal interpretation. I have even heard hell described not as a place of tooth gnashing and torment, but an absence of god. A black void of none existence. That works unless you enjoy the idea of people burning.

The point is not about if people accept the doctrines or not; the point is if they accept the love and goodness or not. but who would reject love and goodness? no one would do such a thing if they are in right mind. But in reality, people misunderstand 'money' as 'security'; "power" as "safety"; "lust" as "love"; "pride and arrogant" as "confident"; "fear" as "cautious"; "fear of unknown" as "being logical":p.........in a word, it has to do with our fallen nature

[shadowofman]

So how about John Lennon? A man that for his entire life preached love and was an atheist. Is he in heaven, or is entry into heaven dependent on acceptance of the belief that Christ was God?

 

But in reality, people misunderstand 'money' as 'security'; "power" as "safety"; "lust" as "love"; "pride and arrogant" as "confident"; "fear" as "cautious"; "fear of unknown" as "being logical"

 

I agree with most of this. But rather than considering it a part of a "fallen nature", I excuse people (forgive people) for being monkeys.

 

Christians such as Pat Robertson preach a gospel of Money=Security, or as he describes it, blessability.

 

Christians such as the majority of the US population believe Power=Security. And many of their children are encouraged to join the armed forces. The department of Defense is mostly concerned with Offense, and completely ignores the "thou shall not kill" COMMANDMENT!

 

Most people like you misunderstand lust and love also. I understand you have no tolerance for lust, but if your husband were to lust after someone else, you would feel as if your love was betrayed. Some of us see a total difference between love and lust (as we have debated countless times in other threads).

 

And please don't think I have a fear of the unknown. Afterlife is an unknown, but it is your fear which compels you to believe in an absolute. I am more than happy to leave the afterlife unknown. And logically I know I will find out when I get there. Or I will cease to exist and it won't matter.

 

etc, etc.

[Lovelybird]

I understand you have no tolerance for lust, but if your husband were to lust after someone else, you would feel as if your love was betrayed.

Sexual desire for own spouse is good, period

[shadowofman]

What if that spouse is of the same sex. Some churches, especially in Europe, are marrying hoomosexuals. So that lust is good right?