Do atheists or people with the "wrong" religion go to Heaven?

[shadowofman]

I stand by my statement before that tangent. It's all cherry picking, wishful thinking, and personal interpretation.

 

Sorry about that everyone.

[Moose]

We all believe in Abiogenesis, because we all believe life started somewhere and from non-life. Primordial soup or clay, whatever.

Um....no we don't;

 

a·bi·o·gen·e·sis /

Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ey-bahy-oh-jen-uh-sis, ab-ee-oh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun Biology. the now discredited theory that living organisms can arise spontaneously from inanimate matter; spontaneous generation.

Christians can join in the piecing, or they can be content to say, "God did it!" That is not progression.

OH horse hockey!

 

Just because we know, "God did it" doesn't mean we can't wonder, study and examine HOW He did it on the same level as you or any other human with a mind of his/her own. Personally I think you're predjudice against Christians because we're comfortable knowing that we WON'T have all of the answers this side of life.

 

Eternal life on the other hand is where we willhave all understanding. BUT, not all at once. It would take eternity to grasp all that's out there.

Most of these theistic brains that could out think me, would argue in favor of evolution.

You're giving yourself WAY too much credit....

The "God of the Gaps" is getting smaller.

This isn't a bad thing. It's as if you're calling the glass half empty, where I see the glass half full.

For that matter, heaven used to float above the earth in the cosmos. It was mapped out and everything. Hell was at the center of the earth.

You simply heard seperate versions that's all. Text without context is PRETEXT.

 

Have you not studied both the Old and New Testaments for yourself? If so, and you're this great, "critical" thinker.....you would know exactly what I meant by my above comment. If not, then you're just 'cherry picking' yourself. (And no need for you to be sorry for stating your opinion)

[HokeyReligions]

Do you realize that this statement is very offensive to all non-christians?

 

If we all only spoke our opinions when we knew they wouldn't offend anyone we would all be mute.

 

I'm offended by all the Christian bashing - but it seems like this OK in this society. He's allowed his own belief too.

[HokeyReligions]

Whenever I ponder questions like this, I remember a scene in "The Stand" where Rob Lowe's character tells the old woman in Nebraska that he doesn't believe in God. She throws back her head and has a good belly-laugh, then says to him "Son it doesn't matter. He believes in YOU."

 

All I can say is, thank GOD it's not my call who gets into heaven and who doesn't!! I'll leave that up to Him.

 

The book The Stand (oh so much better than the miniseries) is one of my favorites and that is partly because it's actually so spiritual. The Mother Abigail character has interactions with God throughout the book and so much of it is like speaking to a minister - I would think about the text in conjunction with some conversations and teachings from the different churches and ministers I have gone to over the years. That one passage "... He believes in you..." is one that stuck out in my mind too. I thought it quite profound when I read it because in the context of a fiction novel it seemed more 'real' than when I was told that same thing by ministers.

 

To tie that back to the original post - if God created each one of us, then He also guides us and our surroundings and what we learn and we would each reach out to Him in our own way and through our own religious practices and what we are taught. So perhaps His teaching is the same for everyone and only the human vehicle for that teaching is different (Muslim, Catholic, Christian varieties, Judiasim, etc.) and the end result is up to Him based on what He gave us on earth. That's just a guess seeing as how no one can know the mind of God.

[JamesM]

Moose already had some great points, so I won't reiterate. But I do have a couple of comments.

 

First, I am not sure how having any of these beliefs will slow progress in the life of a Christian. Even if one says that believing in a Creator versus spontaneous generation can hold one back, then we need to define "progress." One can say that it stops progress in the field of biology, but then we are arrogantly saying that biology today has all of the correct answers and that tomorrows biologists will not overturn what has been "discovered" today. Yes, even Darwiniasm could be changed. The progress of today may be the regress of tomorrow.

 

 

On the whole it is my opinion that faith smacks critical thinking in the face.

 

Nice opinion. Any person who is a "critical thinker" has beliefs of some sort for his basis. Faith that those beliefs are correct does not smack critical thinking in the face.

 

Anyone that has faith in a 6 day creation story cannot progress because their faith holds them back.

 

Define progress. Remember today's progress can be tomorrows regress. And your answer will be reflective of the "great" knowledge that we have today. Many successful scientists (and biologists), politicians, teachers, business men, etc. believe that God created the world in six days. How has this belief slowed their progress?

 

Christians can join in the piecing, or they can be content to say, "God did it!" That is not progression.

 

So I guess progression is when one believes in the latest opinions of the day? I am guessing that anyone who believes in a God is no longer progressing in your opinion. This would be circular logic. "No one can progress if they believe in a God, and BTW, I define progress as when someone does NOT believe in a God." So, you are correct...by YOUR definition, no one who believes in a God can progress.

 

The theist has had to adjust his faith from a earth centered universe to the universe we understand now.

 

Interesting. Fact is...ALL of the scientific community believed that earth was at the center of the universe. And no, they were not all Christians. So, everyone has had to adjust. Remember Galileo believed in a God as did Copernicus...and they were the ones who upset the scientific community.

 

For that matter, heaven used to float above the earth in the cosmos. It was mapped out and everything. Hell was at the center of the earth. Critical thinking has destroyed these notions, and now theists have moved heaven and hell to alternate dimensions. I believe they do exist, but only in the minds of believers.

 

Again, you seem to make the connection that a "critical thinker" is one who is not a theist. In your mind for some reason, there is something that says that when one believes in a God, he or she cannot be really a good "critical thinker."

 

As to mapping out where hell is, go back through history and see how we mapped out the world before we explored it. And then as you "cherry pick" beliefs over the ages, check to see which ones that were held by non-theists have also "progressed." I think you will find that many thoughts, opinions, and "facts" have changed throughout the years. This "progression" is not simply when a theist lost ground to an atheist.

[HokeyReligions]

There are many conflicting religions while still sharing a common belief in an afterlife. That afterlife differs somewhat like a continuation of the soul versus say...reincarnation for example.

The correlation is supported based on two facts: we all die and we all house energy. Seeing as how energy cannot be destroyed; only changed. I see this as a indication that no matter what you believe you will continue in some fashion after your death.

So then there is the question of where our energy goes. Heaven in its different descriptions or Hell in it's own. Where we devout or had enough faith? Did we do as little harm as possible? Contribute something? It all depends on your belief when it comes to these things and no one finds out till their death. We make judgments or guesses while we are alive about ourselves and others. And it is here where I get confused. Because what one person might do in the name of their faith may result in horrible suffering for others. Do they go to their heaven for their devotion or do they go to hell for their harm? I cannot think of a religion that has no history of bloodshed or force. And while I think I live a fairly harmless life in comparison, I can think of things that would push me to harm others for what I believe in despite not adhering to any particular faith because I believe they would be the right things to do. But the persons I would harm might be doing something in the name of their faith. Who would ascend? Me? Them? Neither or both?

What if none of these promised heavens and fore-warned hells existed and we simply become a different form of energy and possibly no longer self aware? Is that so bad?

I think humans need to believe in something to not go crazy or feel unimportant in the realization of how little we are in the grand scheme of things. I believe WE created the face of our Gods in the image of our own expectations.

 

EXCELLENT POST!

[HokeyReligions]

[

QUOTE=allina;1576821]Are you making a joke/play on words with the first portion of your response? I agree that religious people twist their religion around to make it fit what they're trying to accomplish. Your God was, and is used as justification for slavery, murder and hate groups.

I didn't read it as a play on words, I think Moose meant ManKIND. That said, it is not God that is condoning or encouraging slavery, etc. it is Mankind's interpretation or misinterpretation of God's Word. And it is only some charismatic men (and women) who lead people toward their interpretation, not God.

 

I'm not saying that I have absolute morals (whatever that may mean) I do however have enough acceptance in my heart to not control others with my PERSONAL beliefs. You can go to your church, believe in your god, believe in your heaven. I won't try to stop you, but keep your "morals" away from MY laws. You have no right to decide who can and can't marry and what to teach in our public schools. Apply your "morals" to yourself, not non-believers.

Then who has the right? You? Why? What makes you (or anyone who doesn't believe in a god) so superior that you can decide for others? Laws are manmade but if you look at them, they are basically the same basic laws that were provided by God. A marriage sanctioned by God is not the same as a marriage sanctioned by the laws of man. Trying to force churches or faiths to accept a civil marriage in the same way as one blessed by God is no different than a person or group of people trying to force civil laws to not accept the marriage. You (and I mean not just you personally, but groups who push gay marriage) are no different and your belief in what should be accepted or not accepted is the same, just on the other side of the fence.

 

Last, I think religious people are hurting themselves by having blind faith control their actions and emotions. For example, I feel like you (Christians) elected Bush because he scared you and tossed around terms like Jesus, god and family values. Because he's a "good Christian" you let him get you (and us!) in to a terrible war where we have all lost loved ones and suffered as a society.

People have blind faith in lots of things, not least of which is a government. To confuse faith in a Diety with loss of control or controlling emotions and actions is ridiculous. Free will gives us the ability to decide on our actions and emotions are universal - we all have them. Its our choices and actions which speak for us and those are based on everything from faith to societial influence. Bush did not get us into the war - terrorists did.

Another way Christians hurt themselves is through their hate and discrimination. Many Christians would prefer to disown a child for marrying someone of a different religion, having a child out of wedlock, having an abortion or being gay. Does it not hurt to hate so much that it rips apart your family?

Wow. All Christians? Really? Do all Hawaiian's love pinapples too? Again, its a personal and individual basis, often led by those charismatic people I mentioned above. Not from God.

If I was a Christian I would hurt myself by never meeting and falling in love with my SO. He is an incredible man, he treats me like gold and I'm so thankful that he is mine. However he's from a Hindu background, so if I was a Christian I would have condemned him as a sinner who is going to hell, not my love who brings joy to my life.

Hmm. I know many happy couples (including hubby & I) who have wonderful relationships filled with love and trust and respect and are of different religious and cultural backgrounds. Not all Christians are as narrowminded as the media would have you believe.

I am obviously an atheist, I am also a really good person. The good people I see in my everyday life are non-believers. We want equality and we care about people (all people).

Do you really believe the hype that only non-Christians are that way? How sad. "Good" people come in all varieties.

 

On the other hand what I see from Christians is hateful signs at abortion clinics and gay pride parades. I remember when this trans-gender teenager was murdered, a lot of Christians showed up at the funeral with signs reading "no fags in heaven" and "no tears for queers" it was disgusting. When Christians help people through organizations they care more about converting people than about providing them food and aid

. Again, that is a highly publicized group of people and not representative of Christians as a whole. The media loves to bash Christianity - perhaps because they are afraid of it. Its too bad that otherwise intelligent people are being taught to hate Christians. Sheeple.

[HokeyReligions]

They get all their ideas on morality and life from material written thousands of years ago. It might surprise you to learn that there have actually been a lot of new and beneficial ideas since Jesus departed this mortal existence.

 

You are right...providing he abandons his religion and instead adopts critical thinking and logic as his guide.

 

Leaning on one's own knowledge is how we gain more knowledge; reading from the same book for thousands of years locks one into the same anachronistic pattern of thinking. It leads to people disregarding new knowledge for no reason other than it conflicts with deeply cherished beliefs.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

 

Do you really believe that a person who has faith in God is not capable of Critical Thinking? Faith is not exclusive of science or technology or of critical thinking in any form.

[JamesM]

EXCELLENT POST!

 

 

And I can say the same thing about your previous posts.

 

Well done.

[HokeyReligions]

I don't think we can conclude either of those things from the limited information we have now.

 

I think what shadowofman is trying to say (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that there are a lot of questions we don't know the answer to yet.

 

A non-religious person will research these questions and our knowledge and understanding of how it all began is constantly progressing.

 

A religious person who says "god did it" instead of "I don't know, but let's find out" has limited themselves from "progressing" as no further research would be required if they're sincere in that belief.

 

Many people of faith continue with the progressive thinking by constantly trying to figure out How God created each step in evolution and that ties to the same science as what non-believers find. A belief in God does not rule-out the same scientific discoveries and conclusions - the only difference is that one believes God and one believes in Science. Switch the words around and the findings are the same. Belief in God is a challenge also because so many want to disect the How of their belief. Its no different from one saying "Science states that this is so, and that's all I need to know" which would limit them from progressing as no further research would be required if they are sincere in That belief.

[MrsTattie]

i think no one is going nowhere and religion makes less and less sence to me......

religion.....there is war...... killing...cheating...lying.....everywhere

[twice_shy]

One of my issues is that athiests are horrible people. Just because they simply do not believe??

 

So if "god" wanted to save these people, why doesn't he? They are good people, they just simply don't believe in some unseen, unproven force.

 

And if "god" cares about all his "children", why would "he" not bring them into heaven if they have led a good life? Because they didn't go to church and put money in the collection plate??

[Tyra]

If a person is an Atheist, meaning that he or she don't believe that their is a God, (although that isn't true), why would God want them individuals up in Heaven with him. And more importantly, to live eternity with him.

[sally4sara]

If a person is an Atheist, meaning that he or she don't believe that their is a God, (although that isn't true), why would God want them individuals up in Heaven with him. And more importantly, to live eternity with him.

 

Because he is supposedly perfect in his love and forgiveness.

 

My grandmother has stayed married all these years to a man who beat her and her children because "God hates divorce and we are all given our tests and trials in life".

What kind of perfectly loving and perfectly forgiving god would ask my grandmother to get beat on for years to be worthy of his heaven?

[MrsTattie]

If a person is an Atheist, meaning that he or she don't believe that their is a God, (although that isn't true), why would God want them individuals up in Heaven with him. And more importantly, to live eternity with him.

plz nobody can proof me that there is an god

you just believe there is an god

fact and believes

two diffrent things

[Enema]

How God created each step in evolution and that ties to the same science as what non-believers find. A belief in God does not rule-out the same scientific discoveries and conclusions

 

You believe that god created evolution as we know it? That we share an ancestor with modern apes?

 

If not, this is one way in which your "progression" is halted. Your religious bias hampers you from learning anything further in evolution and much of biology as a whole because you reject a fundamental truth.

 

The same can be said for much of geology or astronomy where an old-earth mindset is required. I cannot see how religious people who believe in a 6000 year old earth cannot progress their knowledge in these fields.

[Arch]

One of my issues is that athiests are horrible people. Just because they simply do not believe??

 

So if "god" wanted to save these people, why doesn't he? They are good people, they just simply don't believe in some unseen, unproven force.

 

And if "god" cares about all his "children", why would "he" not bring them into heaven if they have led a good life? Because they didn't go to church and put money in the collection plate??

 

lawl, QFE,

[HokeyReligions]

One of my issues is that athiests are horrible people. Just because they simply do not believe??

 

So if "god" wanted to save these people, why doesn't he? They are good people, they just simply don't believe in some unseen, unproven force.

 

And if "god" cares about all his "children", why would "he" not bring them into heaven if they have led a good life? Because they didn't go to church and put money in the collection plate??

 

*If* God wants to save them? Their 'savability' is up to them - thats what free will is. If someone is an athiest then what do they care about being saved or going to Heaven or hell?

They don't believe those things exist. If they do care about that, they have only to open their heart to God - then they wouldn't be athiests anymore.

[JamesM]

 

My grandmother has stayed married all these years to a man who beat her and her children because "God hates divorce and we are all given our tests and trials in life".

What kind of perfectly loving and perfectly forgiving god would ask my grandmother to get beat on for years to be worthy of his heaven?

 

When did God ask your grandma to live with that?

 

God may "hate" divorce (as do all people who get married), but He also hates abuse. Does it say in the Bible that men should beat their wives and wives should stay with a man who does?

[HokeyReligions]

Because he is supposedly perfect in his love and forgiveness.

 

My grandmother has stayed married all these years to a man who beat her and her children because "God hates divorce and we are all given our tests and trials in life".

What kind of perfectly loving and perfectly forgiving god would ask my grandmother to get beat on for years to be worthy of his heaven?

 

God doesn't want that, as far as I can tell. However, if your grandmothers interpretation and belief dictate her lifestyle, she is choosing her own 'trial and test' albeit one that was presented to her. She still has free will to leave. It's her choice based on her own belief and what was taught to her by other mere mortals. It's sad that it should be so, but it is what it is. Perhaps someday she will come to realize that the true test is in leaving the abuse and accepting that God will still love her and that she was merely another rope in a tug of war between God and Satan and it was her choice to remain as such for so long. Maybe you could talk to a minister and to her and try to help her get out of that abusive situation. Her fears for her soul could be what is keeping her there and she has confused fear with love. That happens a lot. Try to help her, her way - through her faith.

[JamesM]

 

So if "god" wanted to save these people, why doesn't he? They are good people, they just simply don't believe in some unseen, unproven force.

 

And if "god" cares about all his "children", why would "he" not bring them into heaven if they have led a good life? Because they didn't go to church and put money in the collection plate??

 

The definition of God's children would include those who love Him. Would those who choose not to love Him be in that definition?

 

And the definition of good people is what? Those who follow a moral belief that they themselves have set...since they do not believe in a God?

 

According to the Bible, the definition of God's children and those who are included in Heaven are those who have asked for forgiveness from their sins and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior of their lives.

 

If you do not believe, then why is God obligated to bring you to a Place where you will be unhappy?

[HokeyReligions]

You believe that god created evolution as we know it? That we share an ancestor with modern apes?

 

If not, this is one way in which your "progression" is halted. Your religious bias hampers you from learning anything further in evolution and much of biology as a whole because you reject a fundamental truth.

 

The same can be said for much of geology or astronomy where an old-earth mindset is required. I cannot see how religious people who believe in a 6000 year old earth cannot progress their knowledge in these fields.

 

Ah, you don't know me! And to lump me (or any individual) in with a group of people based on popular information is illogical. A little about me - I do not profess to being a Christian. I was agnostic for many, many years and only recently decided that there is most probably a divine being. If I believe that God created all life, then He created ALL life, including Apes. One head, one torso, two legs, two arms - is that not His image also? Did God begin with a single cell organism and from that grew all life? Is that single cell that we share a cell in his image?

 

Many great 'critical thinkers' and scientists believe in God and their discoveries they attribute to their search for who or what God is. Do not tell me that a belief in God hampers in any way my (or others like me) from progress in any form.

[JamesM]

You believe that god created evolution as we know it? That we share an ancestor with modern apes?

 

Then we get into the observable evolution within species and jump to the macroevolution between species which is a theory. Believing that one frog evolves into another frog does not mean that the frog continued into another animal. Believing that one monkey evolved into a different one due to adaptation to a different climate does not necessarily lead one to believe that said monkey developed into a man. And said developed man/monkey found other developed man/monkeys and bred true to become man, while other monkeys continued on into other monkeys.

 

If not, this is one way in which your "progression" is halted. Your religious bias hampers you from learning anything further in evolution and much of biology as a whole because you reject a fundamental truth.

 

This supposed "truth" is not necessarily a truth. It is a conclusion drawn from evidence that allegedly supports the conclusion. To those who make the conclusion it may be truth, but it is not a fact. It most certainly is not a fundamental truth that hampers anyone in their daily lives.

 

One could argue just as strongly that your complete acceptance of these conclusions has hampered you into expanding your mind into believing beyond that which is acceptable to a Naturalist.

 

The same can be said for much of geology or astronomy where an old-earth mindset is required.

 

Is it required? Perhaps the "truths" of today will yield different conclusions tomorrow?

 

Was astronomy or geology developed or began by "old earth" believers?

 

The "truth" of a flat earth is no longer a fundamental requirement, is it? Yet at one time it was. As was the earth being the center of the universe....and both ideas were accepted by the scientific community at the time.

 

I cannot see how religious people who believe in a 6000 year old earth cannot progress their knowledge in these fields.

 

And they probably cannot understand why you confine your knowledge to one particular theory without expanding the possibility that it can be wrong. And I am not saying that it is, but when one examines the many aspects of these "requirements" for progression in knowledge, then it becomes apparent that progression means that one must believe in a certain set of accepted "truths" of today. When one does not, he or she cannot be considered a "critical thinker."

 

So, a critical thinker is one who accepts the "truths" that show there is no God?

 

And based on that, how can one expect to go to a Heaven that is full of people who adore and praise God throughout all eternity for the many wonders He has wrought?

[Arch]

I have a question, why are Christians always so afraid to die?

 

Christianity is the dominant religion in America, but the Christians seem to be the ones most afraid of dieing from "terrorist" attacks, am I the only one who finds that ironic?

[twice_shy]

If a person is an Atheist, meaning that he or she don't believe that their is a God, (although that isn't true), why would God want them individuals up in Heaven with him. And more importantly, to live eternity with him.

 

Because it is "his" fault that they don't believe. Athiests aren't bad people, they just don't believe in god. Why punish a good person for simply not believing? Is that someone's idea of a loving and caring "god"?