Do atheists or people with the "wrong" religion go to Heaven?

[HokeyReligions]

It is, all the Muslims think they are going to get into heaven by blowing themselves up, all the Christians think they will get into heaven by reading a book and paying money to a church, the Catholics believe using condoms is a sin...... its all pretty funny.

 

Wow, it is pretty funny when you think of it. My turn - all black people love watermelon. All Jews are rich. All white men are racists. All Aboriginies eat kangaroo. All Mexicans are drug dealers. No Hindu uses toilet paper. Shall we go on?

[Rooster_DAR]

Hmmm.

No logic in that.

 

There's no logic in lot's of it.

[Rooster_DAR]

Wow, it is pretty funny when you think of it. My turn - all black people love watermelon. All Jews are rich. All white men are racists. All Aboriginies eat kangaroo. All Mexicans are drug dealers. No Hindu uses toilet paper. Shall we go on?

 

I'm not a racist you Jewish ba*tard!!!!!

[Green]

Look people who believe in Heaven believe in ever lasting life through their eternal soul. It makes perfect sense that god could have forgiveness for rape, murder or what ever else... why would some all powerful god be all petty about a thing that happened in a spec of his eternity. I could also see how god could send souls to a hell of sorts though I doubt it would be the Medevil version

[HokeyReligions]

God created us because it was good. We were given free will to choose whatever we want to do in our lives. And that's where evil comes from. Not God.

 

The fact there there are so many Gods is because people like making up their so-called Gods to try and contradict Christianity.

 

 

That, I think, is the crux of it. WHY did God create the world and all life on it? No one can answer that for certain. And even if we could find the answer that would serve everyone - would we really want to know? Would we even be able to understand it? Hmmm

[HokeyReligions]

I'm not a racist you Jewish ba*tard!!!!!

 

LOL! I didn't say you were. Honestly, the words "narrow minded" came to mind when I read your post! It would be pretty sad if we both really believed in what we wrote and didn't say it tongue-in-cheek!

Edited March 20, 2008 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Rooster_DAR]

I didn't say you were. But the words "narrow minded" came to mind when I read your post!

 

It was a joke man....I was attempting to be funny.

 

D'oh!

[HokeyReligions]

I realized when I wrote it that it didn't sound the way I meant it to. I edited my original post.

[Enema]

Then we get into the observable evolution within species and jump to the macroevolution between species which is a theory.

 

Theories explain facts.

 

Macroevolution is a fact and there is plenty of evidence that it occurs and there are many proofs and transitional fossils.

 

29 Evidences for Macroevolution: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

 

Transitional Fossils:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

 

does not necessarily lead one to believe that said monkey developed into a man.

 

Monkey's to Man? Have you been watching Hovind videos again?

 

No evolutionist believes that monkey's developed into men.

 

 

One could argue just as strongly that your complete acceptance of these conclusions has hampered you into expanding your mind into believing beyond that which is acceptable to a Naturalist.

I don't have complete acceptance of these things. As always there's a degree of skepticism and if new evidence came along which threw a spanner in the works and improved current theories I would be delighted and happy to change my view.

 

Happy because new evidence means more knowledge... regardless of what changes need to be made to existing theories.

 

Unfortunately, religiots often cling to old beliefs in spite of new evidence. Hampering their progression.

 

Was astronomy or geology developed or began by "old earth" believers?

It probably was developed by young earthers, as most everyone as at that time.

 

But when new evidence came along to suggest the earth wasn't young, the majority of them changed their ideas and progressed.

 

Guess which ones didn't? The religiots who refused to accept the evidence of an old earth because of their faith.

 

 

And they probably cannot understand why you confine your knowledge to one particular theory without expanding the possibility that it can be wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, I would be happy to change my mind if presented with new evidence. But for now, let's just develop theories based on what we have. Edited March 20, 2008 by Enema

[sally4sara]

God created us because it was good. We were given free will to choose whatever we want to do in our lives. And that's where evil comes from. Not God.

 

The fact there there are so many Gods is because people like making up their so-called Gods to try and contradict Christianity.

 

This might carry some weight if the Christian god were the first god to be worshiped. He is not. So the same could be said about the Christian god being made up to contradict earlier gods. And it is fact. Christianity WAS made up to contradict an earlier Sumerian religion.

I mean crocodiles have been worshiped for longer than the Christian god. I'm just saying you can't write it off as only to prove your god wrong if he wasn't the first worshiped god to begin with.

Edited March 20, 2008 by sally4sara

[JamesM]

Theories explain facts.

 

Correct.

 

Macroevolution is a fact and there is plenty of evidence that it occurs and there are many proofs and transitional fossils.

 

Incorrect. Rather than turn this thread off topic completely, I will settle for just one quote from the link you provided....

 

This article directly addresses the scientific evidence in favor of common descent and macroevolution. This article is specifically intended for those who are scientifically minded but, for one reason or another, have come to believe that macroevolutionary theory explains little, makes few or no testable predictions, is unfalsifiable, or has not been scientifically demonstrated.

 

29 Evidences for Macroevolution: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

 

No evolutionist believes that monkey's developed into men.

 

This is semantics intended to make someone sound less educated. The alleged common ancestor of man and ape was either a man, an ape or neither. So either man descended from a non-ape or a non-man or an ape, or the ape descended from an ape or man or neither. Usually the chart shows a monkey-like critter who walks like a monkey and looks like a monkey becoming a man stage by stage.

 

I don't have complete acceptance of these things. As always there's a degree of skepticism and if new evidence came along which threw a spanner in the works and improved current theories I would be delighted and happy to change my view.

 

...as long as it sticks with the Naturalist viewpoint.

 

Unfortunately, religiots often cling to old beliefs in spite of new evidence. Hampering their progression.

 

Ummm....where did the word religiot come from? Nice addition to the name calling routine, but I have never heard of that one.

 

I guess I could start using the term Godophobe to describe atheists.

 

I think it can be said that atheists stick just as fervently to beliefs that show that there can be no God. One could argue that this limits and hampers their progress.

 

But again, it seems that progress is defined as being "enlightened" in the thinking that there is no God.

 

And it is not new evidence that is the problem....many times it is the interpretation of the evidence that is questioned.

 

One could as easily argue that if one's premise is wrong (as in macroevolution), then any "progress" down that road would be wrong. Such "progress" is not progress, is it?

 

It probably was developed by young earthers, as most everyone as at that time.

 

But the point originally was not whether young earthers were not able to progress. The point is that anyone who believes in a God will be hampered in their progress. And the history of all sciences will show the opposite. But again, if progress is interpreted to mean that God does not exist as your definition, then IMO you limit what progress really is.

 

But as you admit, progress WAS made in all areas of sciences even though such barbaric ideas as a young earth were accepted. This belief then obviously does not hamper progress.

 

But when new evidence came along to suggest the earth wasn't young, the majority of them changed their ideas and progressed.

 

So HERE you are clear as to what progress is?

 

Guess which ones didn't? The religiots who refused to accept the evidence of an old earth because of their faith.

 

Again, the original premise was that anyone who believes there is a God will be hampered in their progress. And if you go back and read the history, an old earth idea was developed when it became obvious that in order for the evolutionary theory to work, an old earth was necessary.

 

Am I saying that the earth is not old? No, but that is when it was "discovered."

 

BTW, does it help to label people as "religiots?" Name calling or labeling tends to discredit arguments. You seem to have created a new word.

 

 

As I mentioned earlier, I would be happy to change my mind if presented with new evidence. But for now, let's just develop theories based on what we have.

 

I contend that anyone who refuses to accept that there is a God limits their knowledge to only naturalistic explanations.

 

"But there is no evidence!" And what evidence would be acceptable as good enough? Based on past posts by man here, none that is reasonable.

 

"So, there is no Heaven and there is no God, BUT if there is and if He was a loving and a caring God, He would let me into Heaven."

 

Yeah right.

[D-Lish]

What IS Heaven? Why would it be fun for someone who does not believe in God if the whole concept of Heaven is being with God?

 

 

That doesn't answer the question of why someone who does not believe in god, but lives a good life, would be sent to Hell and eternal suffering. If one believes in a "Heaven" as a Utopia, then one must also accept that "Hell" is also a reality. There is no passage in the Bible that says non-believers simply die and go nowhere.... It's one place or the other.

 

So either God loves all creatures great and small.... or he sends good people to a horrible place simply because they don't buy into him.

 

It also does not explain what happens to creatures lacking a cognitive understanding of religion... say a baby, someone who is mentally ill or impaired. By that logic, someone who is unable to comprehend the concept of god and heaven isn't worthy of his acceptance... what happens to them? Are there provisions put in place for the meek?

 

Why would there be a place in heaven for a criminal who repents, but not a human being unable to comprehend the concept of faith?

 

If you accept that only the faithful go to a better place.... you must also accept that all others go to Hell. That is a pretty cut and dry Christian concept (only using Christianity as an example for reference here). That means children of other faiths, good and honest people without affiliations, babies, the mentally incompetent, and scores of others.

 

The whole concept is that ultimately, people are judged on faith. How many of the Ten commandments did Constantine or St. Augustine blatently violate? They are in Heaven though right?

 

I understand why such a concept of "accepting christ into your heart" after living the life of a sinner (um...Constantine) could be appealing.... Eons ago...

 

Hey, if you accept Heaven is the way it is described in the Bible- you must also accept Hell and the way it is described in the Bible. When you start to make interpretations.... you negate both.

[Moose]

I agree with this.

 

This thread has taken off like the rocket I knew it would.........

 

No, (personal opinon) man didn't come from monkies. Or Apes. Or a glob of gue.

 

Where or what we DID come from is beyond our comprehension. Doesn't matter if it's from God or not, (if you want it put plainly), simply because you'd literally need to be able to experience this on a personal level, then bring it back, WITH TANGIBLE PROOF to the SKEPTICS....

 

Enough for now....just disappointed on both sides of the fence right now.....jeeeeeezzzz......

[shadowofman]

No kidding!!

I would love to respond to Moose and JamesM's last responces to me but that was like 10 pages ago. While there was some good rebutal, my statements were completely misunderstood so I feel the need to respond.

 

Plus this is about heaven and hell and I was a bit off topic. I'll respond in a new thread about faith and critical thinking, knowledge and truth.

[disgracian]

Do you really believe that a person who has faith in God is not capable of Critical Thinking?

No, just less likely. Not everybody who believes in god is a fundamentalist lunatic. These people are reasonable, and they lean on their own understanding to a greater degree than just living their life by a book.

Faith is not exclusive of science or technology or of critical thinking in any form.

Of course not. But faith in backward, unscientific, irrational beliefs most definitely is.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

The fact there there are so many Gods is because people like making up their so-called Gods to try and contradict Christianity.

Most major religions are older than Christianity. Islam is just about the only one that isn't. Learn something about history.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

No, (personal opinon) man didn't come from monkies. Or Apes. Or a glob of gue.

Labels do not beget labels. All things are fluid and transient.

Where or what we DID come from is beyond our comprehension. Doesn't matter if it's from God or not, (if you want it put plainly), simply because you'd literally need to be able to experience this on a personal level, then bring it back, WITH TANGIBLE PROOF to the SKEPTICS....

So we can't know anything without having observed it personally? Oh well, so much for forensics and archaeological evidence for your own beliefs. Can't have it both ways, grasshopper.

Enough for now....

Excellent.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Lovelybird]

If I believed in him I'm sure I would "love" him. But give me proof he exists.

 

hell, as a child when I was going through very rough times, I asked for any sign. I guess you could say I was wanting to believe. So I asked for a sign, any sign. One never came. And I prayed for this alot. Nothing happened. I wasn't asking for "him" to straighten out the mess I was in, just simply a sign to let me know he is there.

 

If "he" existed and cared, I would have gotten that sign.

 

But since no sign came, and I still have no proof there is a "god", then either two things are true.

 

1) there is no god

 

or

 

2) if there is, he doesn't care

 

I go with #1. I don't believe in #2.

maybe He gave your signs that you missed, or signs weren't something you expected.

 

None of us like tough times, but tough times are times that train and form our charactors. When we pray to God, through communication God teaches us his wills for us, his wisdom to overcome the situation. He rather wants us to grow and to extend than simply remove the bad situation. He has a purpose for the situation we often cannot possibly to see, but through pray we can overcome and keep peace. the important key for us to overcome is to know God's purpose, how to know God's purpose and his mind? Study Him

 

Sometimes I tried to pray to God that He remove something I don't like, but often times God just wants me to grow patience, forgiveness towards those who offend me, self-control, faith...and many other charactors. The fact is I didn't like it at that time, but I am glad I listened to God and did what He wanted me to do.

 

then I learned a little bit 'God is long suffering', indeed he is long suffering that we cannot possibly comprehend, his patience for us is enormous. He is so holy and good, but He still loves us who are full of sins

 

Good people you mentioned are relative good. In fact, each person is doing things that sin against God each day. such as

 

If you have impure thought, then you sined

If you see a woman and lust after her, you sined

If you lie, then you sined

If you didn't respect your parents, then you sined

If you hate someone, then you sined

If you covet something that belong to others, then you sined

if you don't forgive others who offend you, then you sined...

if you gossip and badmouth others, then you sined

if you speak hatred, then you sined

if you have sex out of marriage, then you sined

if you watch porn, then you sined

if you have abortion, then you sined

if you curse, then you sined

if you are self full of sins, but same time you judge others, then you sined

if you do things to revenge, then you sined

if you do things not out of motive of love, then you sined

if you are pride, then you sined

if you are self-centred and self indulgence, then you sined

 

 

the list can go on and on, nobody can possibly not to offend God, that is why Jesus Christ died for us, He paid the price for us. If you don't understand HOW MUCH we sined against God, you will not understand why Lord Jesus died for us. also that is why rely on our own effort like other religions suggested are so futile

 

Then why some severe sinners can enter into heaven after they receive Jesus as Lord? and some relative good people in our eyes who don't receive Lord cannot?

Because the former has a humble heart, know he cannot gain the right to heaven, know his hopeless sinful conditions;

but later think he is good when actually he is very far from goodness, and his pride prevent him to see his own hopeless condition and own sins.

 

In God's eyes, the relative good man's sin is not very far from the severe sinful man. suppose God's goodness is 100, and our best human being can only reach 10, the rest of us fall into 0-10, and Jesus Christ fill the large gap for us

Edited March 20, 2008 by Lovelybird

[shadowofman]

So is entry into heaven all about accepting Jesus, or living a good life?

 

Is an atheist lives a life sin free, but always denies the existence of God, is he turned away at the gates, while a murderer, rapist who does believe and asks Christ for forgiveness is redeemed?

[Lovelybird]

So is entry into heaven all about accepting Jesus, or living a good life?

 

Is an atheist lives a life sin free, but always denies the existence of God, is he turned away at the gates, while a murderer, rapist who does believe and asks Christ for forgiveness is redeemed?

There isn't any human being is sin free.

[andysw]

So is entry into heaven all about accepting Jesus, or living a good life?

 

Is an atheist lives a life sin free, but always denies the existence of God, is he turned away at the gates, while a murderer, rapist who does believe and asks Christ for forgiveness is redeemed?

 

It's all about surrendering yourselves and accepting Jesus Christ into your lives in order to go to heaven.

 

There is no such thing as a free sin man, besides Jesus because he's God in the flesh.

 

No matter how good a person you are, if you have no Christ in you entry to heaven is impossible.

[Citizen Erased]

 

If you have impure thought, then you sined

If you see a woman and lust after her, you sined

If you lie, then you sined

If you didn't respect your parents, then you sined

If you hate someone, then you sined

If you covet something that belong to others, then you sined

if you don't forgive others who offend you, then you sined...

if you gossip and badmouth others, then you sined

if you speak hatred, then you sined

if you have sex out of marriage, then you sined

if you watch porn, then you sined

if you have abortion, then you sined

if you curse, then you sined

if you are self full of sins, but same time you judge others, then you sined

if you do things to revenge, then you sined

if you do things not out of motive of love, then you sined

if you are pride, then you sined

if you are self-centred and self indulgence, then you sined

 

Wow, I can tick off almost all of those

[shadowofman]

Ok, so the degree to which you have sinned in your life has absolutely nothing to do with it? It's all about Christ then? Everyone else

 

And as Christians, were do you get this from..

 

If you have impure thought, then you sined

If you see a woman and lust after her, you sined

If you lie, then you sined

If you didn't respect your parents, then you sined

If you hate someone, then you sined

If you covet something that belong to others, then you sined

if you don't forgive others who offend you, then you sined...

if you gossip and badmouth others, then you sined

if you speak hatred, then you sined

if you have sex out of marriage, then you sined

if you watch porn, then you sined

if you have abortion, then you sined

if you curse, then you sined

if you are self full of sins, but same time you judge others, then you sined

if you do things to revenge, then you sined

if you do things not out of motive of love, then you sined

if you are pride, then you sined

if you are self-centred and self indulgence, then you sined

 

I thought you went by the Commandments. Is "thou shall not have pride" a biblical sin, or are you just getting this from Dante's "Inferno"? Do you include the rest of Dante's 7 deadly, even though they are not in the bible?

 

How many of you Christian's support the War on Terror?

[Moose]

Ok, so the degree to which you have sinned in your life has absolutely nothing to do with it? It's all about Christ then? Everyone else

 

And as Christians, were do you get this from..I thought you went by the Commandments. Is "thou shall not have pride" a biblical sin, or are you just getting this from Dante's "Inferno"? Do you include the rest of Dante's 7 deadly, even though they are not in the bible?

It's clear to me that you haven't read the Bible in it's entirety.

 

How can you, then, be such an advocate for non-believers when you haven't even heard the message of Christ???

 

You would know that the 10 commandments are impossible to follow in this day and age, hence Christ came and became the ultimate sacrifice for those who acceopt Him.

How many of you Christian's support the War on Terror?

We support the right to defend ourselves and consider it our duty to defend others when they can not. Furthermore, what our country does is beyond our control. We hold fast that all things, good or bad that happens in the world will ultimately glorify God one way or the other. Just because we aren't on His time table, doesn't mean the whole situation will spin around.

[Moose]

Of course not. But faith in backward, unscientific, irrational beliefs most definitely is.

This is true. But I'm curious.....why in the world would you think that all Christians or are irrational? Or unscientific? Surely you're not putting us all in one box?? If so, you'd be guilty of prejeduce. And if that's the case, why do you feel so threatened???

 

Society has silenced religion almost to the point of total extermination. All that's left for the world to do is line up the few remaining and pull the trigger. (I just got back from Vegas and other parts of the country and have witnessed tons of evidence of this) You should be happy and feel like the god you think you are???!! I'm confused.

Labels do not beget labels. All things are fluid and transient.

If that's true, then why do you believe you're superior to me or the next guy?.......try again.

So we can't know anything without having observed it personally?

You're putting words in my mouth. Read it again. I was clearly stating that this some aspects of the Christians life requires FAITH, but the unbeliever requires tangible proof.

 

You just shot yourself in the foot.......grasshopper.