Read this pro-lifers...

[shanny]

I am a strict vegetarian/animal lover and there is something that has always bothered me... ProLifers. How on earth can they say that it's wrong to abort what is not even developed into a person yet, BUT they are willing to eat meat. By eating meat they are ENDING the established lives of animals. They think it's wrong to kill an embryo but are okay with an animal being brutally murdered just so they can have a f'ing steak.

 

I believe that everything on this earth was created equal and humans have ruined the world by considering everything "theirs". Well guess what... IT'S NOT. Next time you eat meat think about the SUFFERING and AGONY that poor animal went through. Embryos don't suffer at all, and besides the world is overpopulated enough.

[blind_otter]

There's the whole thing about the fact that none of those cows/chickens would exist if they were not created for the specific purpose of providing meat.

 

Personally I don't care if other people abort their babies. I, for one, could never do that. I don't know that you've ever been pregnant - but the truth is, you feel that life inside you from very early on. I have lost babies in the past, and I could never purposely destroy something that came from me.

 

I suppose ultimately my allegiance lies with those who share my genes.

[theBrokenMuse]

So are vegans then allowed to be prolife?

[JamesM]

Question...why is animal life any more "precious" in your eyes than plant life? What makes a living plant who would also like to live out its life to old age any less of value than those creatures that are put into the animal kingdom? Why do you allow yourself to murder plants and eat them?

 

And if you are concerned about all animals, do you kill mice, flies, insects, spiders, etc.? Or are you very careful not to step on such critters? If you have ants in your house or a mouse is in your kitchen, what action do you take? Do you only believe that animals of a certain size deserve to be specially treated? What size creatures are okay to kill?

 

Do you have pets? What about fish kept in aquariums? Or say...cats and dogs kept in crates or in your house? Why are you allowed to keep them in captivity? Do you think it is any more right to imprison an animal than it is to kill it?

 

Do you drink milk perhaps? Do you eat cheese? Did you know that these cows are not given any special treatment? In fact, their lives may be worse than beef cattle since they live in prison all of their life until murdered at the slaughter house. Their whole purpose in life is to feed people. When they no longer fulfill this duty they are killed.

 

At what point do you decide that plants are okay to eat and animals are not? Where do you draw the line? Did you know that some animals are actually quite plant-like and many plants are animal-like? I am hoping no seafood is allowable as this is no different than any other animal.

 

This separation is not an easy one once you make the statements that you have.

 

Oh, yes, I am a "pro-lifer" and I do eat meat. However, I am very compassionate to animals (except those that I eat. ) I do not hunt. In fact, I have a hard time killing spiders, flies, ants and any other critter who is in the wrong place at the wrong time. It amuses those around me, but I will attempt to save such critters when at all possible. The only exception to that rule is the mosquito.

 

Why do I differentiate humans from animals? Because according to the Bible humans have souls and can expect to either live for all eternity in Heaven with God or in Hell with the Devil. IMO if God calls human life sacred, who am I to disagree? If that differentiation is offensive, then I hope that you have made all of the distinctions that I have listed above, or you are not any different. It is that your placement of the line is different.

[disgracian]

Human beings are omnivores and are allowed to participate in the food chain.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Arch]

I am a vegan and I am certainly not pro life, if anything abortions should be encouraged considering how the human population is expanding.

[Arch]

Human beings are omnivores and are allowed to participate in the food chain.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

To participate you need to have something else that eats you or controls your population, else you are just a disease on the ecosystem.

[blind_otter]

To participate you need to have something else that eats you or controls your population, else you are just a disease on the ecosystem.

 

I hate to split hairs, but lions and tigers and various species of bears and sharks and many other carnivorous animals have no natural predators but humans. So, to be fair, if humans didn't exist then apparently all these animals would also be diseases on the ecosystem, eh?

[Arch]

I hate to split hairs, but lions and tigers and various species of bears and sharks and many other carnivorous animals have no natural predators but humans. So, to be fair, if humans didn't exist then apparently all these animals would also be diseases on the ecosystem, eh?

 

Their numbers are quiet small compared to the 6 billion people leaching from the planet,

[blind_otter]

Their numbers are quiet small compared to the 6 billion people leaching from the planet,

 

Well now you're completely changing the subject. I was simply responding to your statement that any animal that does not have "something that eats you to control your population" is a disease on the ecosystem.

[Trialbyfire]

I'm both a pro-abortionist and an omnivore. I guess that makes me okay.

[Ocean-Blue]

People have differing views on the value of an animal relative to the worth of a human being.

 

I am an omnivore but love animals. I'm also pro-choice.

 

Very interesting question you asked OP.

[Arch]

Well now you're completely changing the subject. I was simply responding to your statement that any animal that does not have "something that eats you to control your population" is a disease on the ecosystem.

 

My statement applies, their is a balance that naturally occurs in nature, too much of one type of animal will cause the whole thing to collapse.

 

Humans have been able to artificially "bend" the ecosystem to accommodate them but their is only so much compensation that can occur before the whole thing gives out.

 

More humans means a higher demand on resources which are finite, cougars and bears and other predators have to compete to survive and the weak die out so overpopulation never occurs.

[disgracian]

To participate you need to have something else that eats you or controls your population, else you are just a disease on the ecosystem.

That isn't true. There are a lot of animals that have no natural predators.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

EDIT: I see somebody else has already covered this with you. While you have gone on to make other arguments that, at face value, are reasonably coherent, this doesn't alter the fact that your initial claim was quite inaccurate.

[pureinheart]

I am a strict vegetarian/animal lover and there is something that has always bothered me... ProLifers. How on earth can they say that it's wrong to abort what is not even developed into a person yet, BUT they are willing to eat meat. By eating meat they are ENDING the established lives of animals. They think it's wrong to kill an embryo but are okay with an animal being brutally murdered just so they can have a f'ing steak.

 

I believe that everything on this earth was created equal and humans have ruined the world by considering everything "theirs". Well guess what... IT'S NOT. Next time you eat meat think about the SUFFERING and AGONY that poor animal went through. Embryos don't suffer at all, and besides the world is overpopulated enough.

 

Hi Shanny,

 

By your last sentance it sounds like you are anti-life. The last study that was done (1990), one could put all of the people in the U.S. in the state of Tennesse with an arms distance. There are enouph resorces although many waste much....

 

If you feel led, watch the movie "Silent Scream" narrated by Charlton Heston as babies do suffer behind abortion.

 

I do not condone cruelty of any sort, there are humane ways to prepare animals for human eating, although this is not practiced due to greed and a lack of knowledge.

 

Humans and animals are quite different as the animal does not have a soul, although I do believe that all animals go to heaven.

 

Shanny, it starts with people....one person at a time, walking balanced, caring for one another, giving your neighbor higher regard...then and only then will all of the atrocities stop.

 

Please overlook my spelling.....and thanks for starting this thread Shanny

Edited March 22, 2008 by pureinheart
wording

[Arch]

That isn't true. There are a lot of animals that have no natural predators.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

EDIT: I see somebody else has already covered this with you. While you have gone on to make other arguments that, at face value, are reasonably coherent, this doesn't alter the fact that your initial claim was quite inaccurate.

 

No what I said still applies, nothing is controlling the human population so right now we are simply a disease.

[Storyrider]

No what I said still applies, nothing is controlling the human population so right now we are simply a disease.

Just curious, if you think humans are just a disease, why do you care so much whether we stay married or divorce (as per your comments on other threads)?

 

Not being snarky, I really want to know.

[shadowofman]

Arbitrary decisions must be made here. What beings deserve special consideration? Humans? Chimpanzees? Endangered species or intelligent species? These are arbitrary lines to draw.

 

Being an omnivorous being, with great appreciation for the concept of consciousness, draw my lines according to a few characteristics.

 

There is no reason that we should kill endangered species.

Certain species display a consciousness that should be respected; apes, aquatic mammals, etc.

Also, consciousness develops at a particular point. Apes seem to be more conscious than a fetus, so I believe it is less moral to kill the conscious than the unconscious.

 

By this reasoning, arbitrary lines become all the more arbitrary. You could argue that infants and children maybe up to a year or two old are without consciousness. In this case it is the value placed on them by the mother and/or society. If society determines that children are valuable and therefore protected, then they are. If society determines that fetuses are valuable and protected, then they are. But where do societies values trump the values placed by the individual. When the question is within the body of the individual, maybe society should have no say in the matter.

[Arch]

Just curious, if you think humans are just a disease, why do you care so much whether we stay married or divorce (as per your comments on other threads)?

 

Not being snarky, I really want to know.

 

Right now we are, it doesn't mean we don't have the potential to coexist.

 

But if our population was around 1 billion, and everyone only got married once and produced one to two children then I think we would be fine.

 

Humans are slowly turning into having a insect like reproduction mentality, having allot of offspring but putting little into raising them, in essence devolving.

 

Instead we should be migrating to the production of fewer offspring and the putting of all our time into the raising of those offspring.

 

Children are better off in a family where their mother and father are still together, its just a fact.

[Storyrider]

Right now we are, it doesn't mean we don't have the potential to coexist.

 

But if our population was around 1 billion, and everyone only got married once and produced one to two children then I think we would be fine.

 

Humans are slowly turning into having a insect like reproduction mentality, having allot of offspring but putting little into raising them, in essence devolving.

 

Instead we should be migrating to the production of fewer offspring and the putting of all our time into the raising of those offspring.

 

Children are better off in a family where their mother and father are still together, its just a fact.

So, according to your theory, we have the potential to raise ourselves above being a disease if we make the right choices?

[shadowofman]

So, according to your theory, we have the potential to raise ourselves above being a disease if we make the right choices?

 

100% agree. Humans are too good at adaptation. Too good at survival.

[Arch]

So, according to your theory, we have the potential to raise ourselves above being a disease if we make the right choices?

 

Yes, at our current state as a whole we are a disease, it doesn't mean we don't have the ability to rise above what we currently are.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Arch

[FleshNBones]

They think it's wrong to kill an embryo but are okay with an animal being brutally murdered just so they can have a f'ing steak.

I don't eat human.

Animals, insects, and bacteria don't have the moral dilemma you have. Pigs will eat just about anything.

I believe that everything on this earth was created equal and humans have ruined the world by considering everything "theirs". Well guess what... IT'S NOT.

Ruined? Survival of the fittest.

[shanny]

Thank you for all of your replies to this. I was kinda on a rant the day I wrote the post and was honestly scared to look because I thought I was going to get hateful answers! But instead, I got wonderful opinions and I thank you all for that...

 

Some of the highlights... I believe one person said that animals don't have souls. I wholeheartedly disagree. Animals are different from humans in their makeup, intelligence, etc, but they do feel love and I will always believe that they have souls. If I go to heaven and don't see all of my past dogs and cats then heaven won't really be heaven for me.

 

As far as my habits... I do not even kill bugs. I kindly escort them outside (frightening with some insects... but I feel that everything has a right to live). At work when someone finds a bug they yell "Janet do you want to take this bug outside? You have five minutes till we kill it!" I always drop what I'm doing to save a life.

 

I am a complete vegan. Very hard at times (and expensive) but well worth it.

 

Now I don't want anybody to think that I think abortion is ok. I don't think that it should be used as a form of birth control. I think it is a last resort when the mother is unfit to have the child. I personally don't want kids, but even I don't think I would have an abortion if an accident happened. I would give the baby up for adoption. Where I'm coming from is that I can't stand the die hard prolifers that say that it is unacceptable in any situation. I think that they need to open their eyes and see that there are other forms of life besides humans, and if they are so caring, why don't they care about them too?

 

Having beliefs like mine are very hard because I'll never win. Animals are being brutally slaughtered everyday needlessly and there is nothing that I can do to stop it. It's horrible and eats me up sometimes. Hence, the rant.

[disgracian]

Death is not only inevitable, it is necessary. Millions of animals are killed as a direct result of vegetarian eating habits as well. There's nothing that can be done about it, short of worldwide adoption of permaculture.

 

Cheers,

D.