Is Porn A Reflection On How Men See Women?

[Jersey Shortie]

Doesn't the same apply to men in porn? There are videos where men are portrayed getting gang raped in prison by gay men, or tied up and whipped (or worse) by women. I don't see how porn objectifies or degrades women any more so than men. In fact the women earn more than male performers.

 

I don’t think that porn is good either. But how much porn out there degrades women compared to what degrades men? There is way more mainstream porn out there depicting women in a negative light then there is men. Yes, there is porn such as you described. Yes, I think that porn is degrading to men. No, I don’t think the majority of men or women are watching that type of porn. Yes, I think the majority of porn being watched by men is porn that degrades women. I also don’t think the act of receiving payment for services doesn’t make something any less degrading. I am perfectly aware these women choose to do what they do. Again, that doesn’t mean what is being done isn’t degrading to them or to women in general. And it doesn't mean men don't see them as second class in some way.

 

 

Enjoying seeing someone degraded in a sexual fashion does not mean you think that they *as a person* are bad, or inferior, or any other negative connotation. It just means you find it hot to watch them getting slammed while being called names.

 

If they don’t see that person as inferior on some level or in a negative way, why would they want to call them names to begin with? Notice I said “on some level”. It seems on some level, men do think women are inferior to them and deserve to be called names and have other degrading things done to them because it doesn't seem like men honestly value or respect women very much.

 

 

......you cannot draw any conclusions at all about people's attitudes, just by looking at what gets them hot

 

Maybe not 100% of the time you can, but sometimes you can.

 

 

 

Porn is not sexist, because there are examples of every type of person being "degraded". Secondly, it is only abusive/degrading in a sexual context, not to the person as an individual - the woman who gets called names or treated "bad" on the video is the one who is the centre of attention and who walks away with by far the biggest paycheque out of all the performers. Third, how people act sexually has no bearing at all on their views towards people in a non-sexual context. So basically, a man can like the idea of calling a woman a bitch and slapping her ass in bed, and respect her and love her. And vice versa

 

The women being called names and treated “bad” in the video receives a bigger pay check because the emotional and physical part of it makes her pay a higher cost. No woman desires a random man she hardly knows to slap her around and call her a name unless she has serve issues with herself and men. She walks away with a bigger pay check because you have to bribe a woman to do something that is demeaning. The price is higher all around for women, and that is why women are attempted to be lured to porn with bigger pay checks. The fact that she receives more money doesn’t mean she isn’t being used or disrespected. And there is a huge difference between engaging in certain acts with a person you love, then there is in using any ole woman to use and degrade for your own enjoyment. You can’t compare what goes on between two people that care about each other to a random man getting off telling a woman that she is a “bitch”..(he might as well tell her she is worthless because “bitch” isn’t meant to be a "positive".

 

 

The owner of a bunch of porn sites was once asked "Aren't you exploiting vulnerable young women with poor career prospects?" and replied "No, we're exploiting horny middle-aged men with credit cards

 

How nice for all the middle aged women out there that care about those middle aged men. Men give women something to look forward to huh.

 

 

If in a gay porno, a gay porn actor is saying "suck it bitch" to the other gay, does that mean he is a homophobe, is that how he thinks of men "in real life"? That he'd be able to do that to a man himself and that he'd think of him in a "suck it bitch" kind of way

 

I really have no clue. If you want to open up a topic about gay porn, please do so. But as I am not gay, neither do I have romantic relationships with gay men, I have them with hetero ones that I would hope respect women, I can’t answer this. And if I could, the fact remains, although it might be unfair, what hetero men do with/to women matters more to me then what goes on between gay relationships. So please open a seperate thread if you want to discuss this

 

What if it's a woman saying "lick my heel, wimp" to a guy. Does that mean she is a man-hater in real life

 

Quite possibly yes. Again, in the context of amount. Women being degraded in porn is a much much more common occurrence then a man being degraded. Yes it happens. Yes we know. However, it is no where near the extent that it happens to women.

 

Hopefully you can see how stupid this whole line of reasoning is now. This way of thinking is pure feminazi tripe, assuming that only bad, evil misogynist hetero men could possibly have any such feelings, and that any kind of dominance in sexual behaviour is a manifestation of male heterosexual patriarchal oppression. Despite the fact that gay men and women, and hetero woman ALSO have these feelings and act them out (and have them represented in porn), it's only the straight guys who get criticised for it. Typical 70s feminazi codswallop, an excuse for gratuitous man-bashing.

 

 

Actually, there have been studies done that say porn sometimes is about a hetero’s male oppression of women in a society that has been becoming more gender neutral. Not always the case, but I think it is clear to see that this sometimes could be the case. I don’t understand how me thinking porn can be degrading to a woman when calling her names and smacking her around is “man-bashing”, but calling a woman names and smacking her around isn’t “woman-bashing” and men really do respect women? Please explain that line of thinking. You think I am man-bashing because I think porn is degrading to women? How does that make any sense? What does that say about men who enjoy seeing women degraded? That seems more like woman bashing.

 

 

Instead you went round pontificating on what men really feel about women as people, based on nothing more than what particular visual fantasies make their dicks hard.

 

Why shouldn’t women think that is how men feel about women as people? Men love porn. It’s no big secret. It’s no big secret that women are often being shown being dominated or degraded in some way. Why shouldn’t women be like “WTF, he likes watching some random girl treated with little concern. Does he even respect or like women himself? Does he even respect me?” I think that seems very logical. I am going by what I see men enjoy and support. So yeah, duh! That is going to cause some natural doubt.

 

 

How about we stop gratuitiously assuming that people's sexual tastes have anything to do with their social, political, or gender views, and are solely driven by what turns them on?

 

 

How about men try to be a little more understanding how a woman can perceive his love for porn being how he sometimes views women? Especially porn that is about objectifying women and not treating them like the matter beyond their spread legs.

 

Have you ever stopped to wonder why men do not go around whining about the evils of female domination porn (or gay porn, since it's also guy on the "receiving end")? Why don't use guys complain, write theses, and form pressure groups to harangue dominatrixes for shoving needles into men's balls or whipping their asses red raw, or porn movies where some guy gets raped in prison by the butch guards? Why is it only women complaining about supposed "degrading" pornography? Maybe it's because men actually have a healthy and sensible perspective on life, sex, and porn, and realise that it's just about getting off and indulging a fantasy, and otherwise has nothing whatsoever to do with the real world? Thank heavens some women actually have a sane, measured, and rational perspective on all of this.

 

Oh please! Men are not any more healthy and sensible then women in general. And if porn was so “healthy”; then you would think the world would be alight in “healthy” relationships between men and women. And obviously that isn’t the case. Sex is normal and healthy, the media of what porn is isn't. Men don’t complain about graphic sexual materal. They complain about women using them for their money, or being worried that a woman only wants to use it him as a date…and a million other things that are more guy sensitive. Different things effect men and women. Men don’t like seeing women disrespect men anymore then women like seeing women disrespected by men. It’s just that porn in general is so wildly accepted by men, men don’t try to understand how it can be hurtful seeing your man get off to something that doesn’t treat a woman much better then a rag.

Edited April 3, 2008 by Jersey Shortie

[AlanChase]

Porn is a reflection of how men see SLUTS.

 

It's a part of us most women cannot understand.. the ability to remove all emotion from a sex, where it becomes an act of pure dominance, which can (in some cases) be interpreted as degrading behavior.

 

Call it the Madonna/wh0re syndrome if you like, but I think that's just making something elaborate out of a simple facet of man's sexuality. In a lot of cases, sex with a girl has about as much emotional implication as scratching an itch.

[Trialbyfire]

Porn is a reflection of how men see SLUTS.

 

It's a part of us most women cannot understand.. the ability to remove all emotion from a sex, where it becomes an act of pure dominance, which can (in some cases) be interpreted as degrading behavior.

 

Call it the Madonna/wh0re syndrome if you like, but I think that's just making something elaborate out of a simple facet of man's sexuality. In a lot of cases, sex with a girl has about as much emotional implication as scratching an itch.

Dominance is an emotion...

 

Perhaps you're not differentiating between aggressiveness and softer emotions.

 

Beyond that, I completely agree except that regardless of how you state it, in every situation of complete dominance, someone is made lesser or subservient. THAT is the nature of dominance.

[grogster]

Most guys can distinguish porn from their sex lives. Unless, a man's obsessed, porn rarely bleeds over into everyday life.

 

Can a male feminist enjoy mainstrean porn? You bet. And so can the female variety.

[JerseyShortie]

Porn is a reflection of how men see SLUTS.

 

So women are sluts for having, liking and going after sex and men are wonderful, studs and deserve respect for liking sex and going after it? If a woman enjoys sex, she doesn't deserver respect so it's okay if women get disrespected in porn. Is that what you are trying to say? Because it sounds like you are justifying the way a woman in porn is being treated because she is just a "slut" after all. Someone less then the man in the film enjoy himself or the millions of men watching enjoying themselves. She is someone to look down on. Since she is the one you are choosing to call a name, and not the men who watch or participate.

 

It's a part of us most women cannot understand.. the ability to remove all emotion from a sex, where it becomes an act of pure dominance, which can (in some cases) be interpreted as degrading behavior.

 

Yes, I do think men seperate it easier. But maybe men need to understand how it can be hurtful watching the man you care about enjoying the degrading and objectification of how other wome nare treated.

 

Call it the Madonna/wh0re syndrome if you like, but I think that's just making something elaborate out of a simple facet of man's sexuality. In a lot of cases, sex with a girl has about as much emotional implication as scratching an itch.

 

I hope you don't think this is something that compliments a man. Or a man's "feelings" toward a woman. It doesn't.

[Trimmer]

Quite possibly yes. Again, in the context of amount. Women being degraded in porn is a much much more common occurrence then a man being degraded. Yes it happens. Yes we know. However, it is no where near the extent that it happens to women.

Well, there are kind of two separate forks to the answers here. One says "don't worry about the domination/degradation, it doesn't mean anything", and another says "I may enjoy some kinds of porn, but I don't enjoy seeing anyone portrayed as being degraded." I subscribe to the latter, and can't speak for the former.

 

Actually, there have been studies done that say porn sometimes is about a hetero’s male oppression of women in a society that has been becoming more gender neutral.

I think this is an interesting point. Perhaps spun another way, I wonder if, in a society that becomes more gender-neutral, the genders are each casting about to satisfy their instinctive urgings... Instinctively, men screw around and women snare them and care for their offspring. As we become more gender-neutral (and I'm not granting that this is a good thing) men are sent messages from the specific "you shouldn't screw around" to, in some ways "don't be men."

 

Now, this sounds an awful lot like I'm going down the old path of excusing porn because men need to be men, and that's not my intention. But I do suggest, since you grant that society is becoming more "gender neutral" that this really mostly amounts to bringing men more towards neutral, while really not particularly limiting women from being women. This is a huge question, but is there a more healthy way to provide equality and opportunity for all, without "neutering" (comes from the same root as "neutral," you'll note) either gender? Can we let men be men and women be women in healthy ways, and still all come out ahead?

 

Anyway, back to the topic...

 

I've said it before, and you are refusing to acknowledge or comment on my point, but I'll just keep presenting it...

Why shouldn’t women think that is how men feel about women as people?

Because a man and a woman interact and deal with each other on an individual basis, and if one insists on bringing what's happening 'out there' into one's relationship with an individual and burdening the dynamic and damaging the trust with one's perception of what 'those men' feel, then you aren't really having a relationship with an individual, are you? You're trying to "relate" to the entire male population as you perceive it, and I have to believe your relationship with any given individual is bound to suffer if you can't separate "out there" from "right here, right now."

[Trimmer]

Yes, I do think men seperate it easier. But maybe men need to understand how it can be hurtful watching the man you care about enjoying the degrading and objectification of how other wome nare treated.

I totally get this. I have no problem understanding how this could be hurtful. But I think this is the first time you've put it in terms of a dynamic between individuals in a relationship. Everything else in this thread has been about how women, in general, feel because of what "all men out there" do, as determined by the existence of certain kinds of porn.

 

So are you shifting the topic now to porn use within an individual relationship? If so, will you share your experience of how your partner(s) have affected you and how you feel about their porn use?

[AlanChase]

...regardless of how you state it, in every situation of complete dominance, someone is made lesser or subservient. THAT is the nature of dominance.

Is a tree worth any less for bending in the wind? Is the lioness less than the lion cause he's the one on top? How do we even define worth to begin with?

So women are sluts for having, liking and going after sex and men are wonderful, studs and deserve respect for liking sex and going after it?

Not at all. We are talking about FANTASY here. There are things that I get off watching that I wouldn't do with my GF, out of respect! There are no social repercussions for you if you watch a 3some in the comfort of your own home. Try doing that in real life and see how complicated it can get.

 

Having said that, I am not crazy about the idea of my GF getting herself off watching other guys and can understand why this is such a touchy subject. When I am in a relationship I do not watch porn for this reason. That, and the fact that there aint nothing like the real thing

Edited April 3, 2008 by AlanChase

[Kezersoze]

I think alot of people are reading wayyy to deep into this porn thing. Men will beat off to a hot chick then go on about their day like they had never seen it. Also it's impossible to generalize about all women and men even from porn cause there isn't even a majority opinion in porn.

[annieo]

There is a lot of porn out there that puts girls in the drivers seat, and there are some guys (my h) who are into it. Watched some last night .

 

Sexual fantasy frequently has to do with power, control, who's top, who's bottom. I see it as playtime for adults. As long as the porn doesn't become the main focus, it is a healthy way to express our imaginations.

 

What people might do/feel/want during sex does not necessarily connect to how we behave during day to day life. There are men who are fairly vanilla in their sexual expression, who don't like or respect women all that much. Been with a few, actually.

[witabix]

Is it different if the pictures are moving or are stills?

 

I have seen ancient Greek Urns with pornographic paintings on them. Is the Kama Sutra pornographic, or is it just modern DVDs.

 

Oh I use pornographic in its literal sense, "sex picture", at least I think it is. My Greek is a little rusty.

 

My thoughts on this subject, for what they are worth, is that I would be far more concerned, that still in this world, women are beaten, raped, forced to work in sweat-shops, mutilated in the the most horrific fashion and killed by lack of medicines and education.

 

The women in porn films are degraded, I think that would only be in the observers eye. Some of them I am sure are not overly happy with their lives, others must be happy to do what they do, I understand they get paid well. They are not from third world countries, they live in a democracy, they have a choice don't they.

 

I stand to be corrected if my assumptions are incorrect, but that is my understanding.

[annieo]

Is it different if the pictures are moving or are stills?

 

I have seen ancient Greek Urns with pornographic paintings on them. Is the Kama Sutra pornographic, or is it just modern DVDs.

 

Oh I use pornographic in its literal sense, "sex picture", at least I think it is. My Greek is a little rusty.

 

My thoughts on this subject, for what they are worth, is that I would be far more concerned, that still in this world, women are beaten, raped, forced to work in sweat-shops, mutilated in the the most horrific fashion and killed by lack of medicines and education.

 

The women in porn films are degraded, I think that would only be in the observers eye. Some of them I am sure are not overly happy with their lives, others must be happy to do what they do, I understand they get paid well. They are not from third world countries, they live in a democracy, they have a choice don't they.

 

I stand to be corrected if my assumptions are incorrect, but that is my understanding.

 

I can see both sides of this (as I can with many topics). And I watch porn occasionally, so this might sound hypocritical. But I do stay away from the yucky stuff.

I think there is a huge difference between the Kama Sutra, which depicted ways/positions to find pleasure versus a lot of porn these days, which has the potential to normalize treating women as cum receptacles, beneath the contempt of the men they are with.

But it greatly depends on the kind of porn you are watching. There is HUGE variety out there, catering to the wildly varied desires of the consumers (men mostly, but women as well).

As to the "they are not from third world countries", ummm, not always true. Many women who work in the sex trade (porn, massage parlours, strip clubs) are in economic dire straits, in North America illegally, desperate. So they do what they need to to survive. I'm not talking Jenna Jamieson here, the big stars, but the numberless, nameless others who populate the porn universe.

[JerseyShortie]

Trimmer:

.....As we become more gender-neutral (and I'm not granting that this is a good thing) men are sent messages from the specific "you shouldn't screw around" to, in some ways "don't be men."

 

Are you trying to say that the only way many men define themselves is by how many women they can sleep with? I actually find that to be insecurity based. Men who need to feel good about themselves through the validation they get from the amount of women that willingly sleep with them, has nothing to do with what it means to be a man. It has more to do with the validation he needs from the opposite sex.

 

And while God did create men to want to "spread their seed", he also created men to want to pair bond with one woman. To say that "screwing around" is what makes a man a man, is no more valid or less, then saying to be monogomous is makes a man a man.

 

 

Now, this sounds an awful lot like I'm going down the old path of excusing porn because men need to be men, and that's not my intention. But I do suggest, since you grant that society is becoming more "gender neutral" that this really mostly amounts to bringing men more towards neutral, while really not particularly limiting women from being women.

 

Actually, things becoming "gender neutral", doesn't just effect men. It is also something that effects women. One example of this is women now have to both work outside the home in a male domianted work force, AND still raise the children. There isn't much energy left at the end of the day that leaves her feeling like a real woman either. Gender neutrality can be limiting to both sexes. And when she goes home, what does she get? her man looking at super exploited images of idealized women that she can't look anything like. I do think porn makes men feel more like men. But it goes a long way from making any woman feel like a real woman. Heck, even if the women in the movie felt like real women and good about themselves ,most of them wouldn't feel the need for the attention and validation in they get from letting x amount of men have sex with them.They wouldn't even be in those movies.

 

This is a huge question, but is there a more healthy way to provide equality and opportunity for all, without "neutering" (comes from the same root as "neutral," you'll note) either gender? Can we let men be men and women be women in healthy ways, and still all come out ahead?

 

I think it has to come from both sides in redefining how they define what makes a "real" woman or man. And often the things we let ourselves be defined by and define other's by are shallow, pretenious, on the surface stuff that really has nothing to do with what at the heart of the matter makes us who we are. When you start thinking that way, you positively re-enforce both sides and you create an environment that makes both men and women wanting to do what they can to be better in the ways that are truly important. But the reality is men get caught up in over exploited ideas about what a woman should be and look like, and women get caught up in wanting to meet those expectations just to feel like a woman on some level and have some kind of male effection.

 

 

 

Because a man and a woman interact and deal with each other on an individual basis, and if one insists on bringing what's happening 'out there' into one's relationship with an individual and burdening the dynamic and damaging the trust with one's perception of what 'those men' feel, then you aren't really having a relationship with an individual, are you?

 

I think this is a good point. But I already feel that he is already bringing in what is happening "out there", when he is viewing pornography. I don't understand how a man can expect that he enjoys watching women called "sluts" and having sex with lots of different men, and a man not understand how his enjoyment of that is not at least partially a reflection on how he sees women. And to further extend it, how he can't understand how that can be hurtful to his own woman.

 

Men expect women to be super confident in themselves and not be bothered by their porn use and to not fall pray to idealized stereotypes in porn when men can't even do that themselves when it comes to porn! It's ironic. Men want the type of girls they see in porn, yet tell "real life" girls to not let that image effect them. It doesn't make any logcial sense at all. How do you expect women not to be effected by what men show they like? How do you expect women to not question how men see women when alot of men obviously enjoy seeing women degraded to varying degress?

 

You're trying to "relate" to the entire male population as you perceive it, and I have to believe your relationship with any given individual is bound to suffer if you can't separate "out there" from "right here, right now."

 

Perhaps. But if that is true, in turn then, some men try to "unrelate" to the entire female population as they perceive it in a heavily male dominated and male enjoyed form such as porn that on some level treats women less then people and not expect that not to effect their own women in their life in some way. If I don't seperate between the two very well; many men certainly don't connect between the two very well either. This is a classic example of a woman being able to interconnect things and a man being able to pinpoint it in neat little boxes.

 

 

"... in general, feel because of what "all men out there" do, as determined by the existence of certain kinds of porn."

 

I'd say a good 95% of men view porn, to varying degrees of degrading of women.

 

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alan chase:

How do we even define worth to begin with?

 

I think most people have a pretty basic understanding of how we define "worth" and "respect".

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witabix:

I have seen ancient Greek Urns with pornographic paintings on them. Is the Kama Sutra pornographic, or is it just modern DVDs.

 

 

Depictions of sex on Greek Urns and watching a man ejaculate on a woman's face and basically telling her how worthless he finds her are two differenthings.

 

 

 

My thoughts on this subject, for what they are worth, is that I would be far more concerned, that still in this world, women are beaten, raped, forced to work in sweat-shops, mutilated in the the most horrific fashion and killed by lack of medicines and education.

 

Actually, I think those are all things that deserve to be reconginzed as TOO. Not in subsitute of the subject being talked about. Gender disrespect seems like a good thing to pay attention to no?

 

The women in porn films are degraded, I think that would only be in the observers eye. Some of them I am sure are not overly happy with their lives, others must be happy to do what they do, I understand they get paid well. They are not from third world countries, they live in a democracy, they have a choice don't they.

 

These points have been expressed before. No one is saying they don't have a choice. And no one is saying they don't get paid. That doesn't take away from the fact that it can be degrading to women. Or disrespectful to the women in your life if you are a man that views pornography.