Can dinosaur fit in Bible?

[lovelorcet]

That is the key point of that link. dinosaurs weren't before Human beings. 'the dinosaurs existed millions years ago' are the theory the evolutionist made up. The person who wrote the Bible saw dinosaur, maybe at their time, the dinosaurs were only small ones because the flood killed most of giant ones, Job and many others described it in the Bible.

 

according to fossils that cannot link one species to another, evolutionists made up theories that is taught in today's school

 

 

Wow... Just wow... Get an education girl and learn just a little bit about science...

[shadowofman]

'the dinosaurs existed millions years ago' are the theory the evolutionist made up.

 

Actually Lovely, this has been common knowledge for centuries. At least since the Age of Reason. Theists historically have been more responsible for these discoveries. "Young earth" is an interpretation of scripture and has nothing to do with real science, and is only expressed by an extreme minority of educated theist scientists.

 

A vast, vast, vast majority of theist-scientists agree: Dinosaurs lived and died long before humans appeared.

[Lovelybird]

Actually Lovely, this has been common knowledge for centuries. At least since the Age of Reason. Theists historically have been more responsible for these discoveries. "Young earth" is an interpretation of scripture and has nothing to do with real science, and is only expressed by an extreme minority of educated theist scientists.

 

A vast, vast, vast majority of theist-scientists agree: Dinosaurs lived and died long before humans appeared.

Actually brother, here is the link about radioisotope dating that evolutionist use to prove that earth is old

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-radiometric-dating-prove

[Lovelybird]

Wow... Just wow... Get an education girl and learn just a little bit about science...

yeah, I respect science, but evolutionists have lots of assumptions, and their theories were built on these assumptions

Edited April 2, 2008 by Lovelybird

[lovelorcet]

yeah, I respect science, but evolutionists have lots of assumptions, and their theories were built on these assumptions

 

Science as well as evolution is based on observable occurrences in nature. The bible is a story written by people and is based some stories so please tell me just who is making assumptions here?

 

History shows over and over again that when believers think something is true which contradicts science the observable and rational explanation offered by science offers ends up being the most compelling answer.

 

Here is something actually worth reading..

 

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2008/104/1?etoc

[Moose]

Science as well as evolution is based on observable occurrences in nature. The bible is a story written by people and is based some stories so please tell me just who is making assumptions here?

 

History shows over and over again that when believers think something is true which contradicts science the observable and rational explanation offered by science offers ends up being the most compelling answer.

 

Here is something actually worth reading..

 

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2008/104/1?etoc

I only have one problem with your statement....can you tell me the difference between, "Observable Occurrences" and "Eye Witnesses"?

 

There's a big difference in my opinion.

[lovelorcet]

I only have one problem with your statement....can you tell me the difference between, "Observable Occurrences" and "Eye Witnesses"?

 

There's a big difference in my opinion.

 

 

Well lets put it like this, there are many ways of establishing a time line in a scientific way, these would be "Observable Occurrences". Radio dating, carbon dating, measuring ice caps layers... and many more... All of these methods place the dinos as being long dead before man came onto the sense.

 

YOU could go out and make the same discoveries yourself by observing the same parts of nature. This is compared to some cryptic eyewitness quote from a book that has been translated how many times?

 

Eye witness = you gotta trust me I saw it

 

Observable occurrences in nature = you don't believe me? Then you can see it for yourself.

[witabix]

For a moment there I thought this thread was turning into a Baconian vs Popper scientific method thread.

 

The basic premise of this thread, as far as I can ascertain is, do dinosaurs fit with the Bible?

 

My answer to this is not concerned with evolution, biology or scientific method.

 

The Christian Bible does not concern itself with dinosaurs, super massive black holes, string theory, or indeed the calorific value of cheese burgers.

 

That is not what it is there for, it is a set of testaments, and within it, it also contains morals, ethics and a guideline for social structure.

 

I don't see the point in dragging the Bible's messages into any of this evolution/intelligent design argument, that was not, is not and never will be its point.

 

Apart from Genesis there are no references to anything before Adam and Eve, as far as I recall. I am sure one can interpret passages towards this point, but the people who wrote it were not thinking about physics, maths, biology or quantum theory.

 

Jesus didn't do differentiation, integration, nor did he posit the theory of gravity. However Mr Newton did, and he was a religious man.

 

There is no clash between science and religious beliefs. It is possible, though IMO unlikely, that a god did indeed make everything. The goal of science is to understand how it all works. Not who made it.

[Enema]

I don't see the point in dragging the Bible's messages into any of this evolution/intelligent design argument, that was not, is not and never will be its point.

 

You don't think so, but many religious people think the bible is where we should be looking for science answers.

 

This is a quote from the article lovelybird posted:

 

The best way to learn about history and the age of the earth is to consult the history book of the universe—the Bible. Many scientists and theologians accept a straightforward reading of Scripture and agree that the earth is about 6,000 years old. It is better to use the infallible Word of God for our scientific assumptions...

This quote from their mission statement is famous among people that know creation science for the joke it is:

 

"No apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."

http://www.answersingenesis.org/about/faith

[witabix]

But Enema, that is their problem

 

"The best way to learn about history and the age of the earth is to consult the history book of the universe—the Bible. Many scientists and theologians accept a straightforward reading of Scripture and agree that the earth is about 6,000 years old. It is better to use the infallible Word of God for our scientific assumptions... "

 

The above quote is made by someone who refuses to accept science as a valid subject. The fact that the quotee may sincerely believe this does not really impinge on the world of science.

 

I would like to see where the Bible makes the claim that it is "the history book of the universe". the fact that someone else makes that claim does not make it so. My recollection of studying the Bible has no reference to the chapter that makes this claim.

 

I make no such claim for science.

[Enema]

But Enema, that is their problem

 

It can become everyone's problem.

 

They can sway impressionable people that trust too easily.

 

Look at poor lovelybird, she believes everything she reads as long as it's on a pro-jayzus website, even if we tell her flat out she's wrong and explain why.

 

When a million similar folk take up the same torch, politicians start to cater to them and then policy based on wacky beliefs like "the bible should be our basis for science" affects all of us and our children.

 

I don't really know what my point is, so i'll trail off here with a few dots......

[annieo]

It can become everyone's problem.

 

They can sway impressionable people that trust too easily.

 

Look at poor lovelybird, she believes everything she reads as long as it's on a pro-jayzus website, even if we tell her flat out she's wrong and explain why.

 

When a million similar folk take up the same torch, politicians start to cater to them and then policy based on wacky beliefs like "the bible should be our basis for science" affects all of us and our children.

 

I don't really know what my point is, so i'll trail off here with a few dots......

 

Enema, you've convinced me that it's important to keep the dialogue going. I was beginning to think, "Just agree to disagree", in typical conciliatory Canadian fashion. But you are right: you don't want to become part of a voiceless minority, or have a few loud fanatics take over the steering wheel completely (although judging from who's in charge down there, that may have already happened - hopefully that will be changing soon .

[Lovelybird]

Science as well as evolution is based on observable occurrences in nature. The bible is a story written by people and is based some stories so please tell me just who is making assumptions here?

Those people who wrote the Bible were inspired by Holy Spirit. and the same Holy Spirit who come from God is with me and us believers. so that isn't same 'assumption' as the evolutionists use. It is more like hear REAL stories from a OLD people who witness all those things.

 

Look at poor lovelybird, she believes everything she reads as long as it's on a pro-jayzus website, even if we tell her flat out she's wrong and explain why.

.....

Ok, God is too real for me to ignore him, he answers my prayers, he talks to me each day, comforts me, advises me, and give me the ever perfect love that nobody can give me. Who do I believe? Will I believe a person who don't ever know God tell me that God isn't real? will I give up all these God's perfect love, his power to change things to better, his wisdom to advise me in time of need, just because you tell me so? Of course NOT

 

Of course I believe God. He is too real

 

and my thread isn't about "debate about science and God", just I question evolutionists' method and their ASSUMPTIONS that go against Bible. Will I be agaist a scientist to study his gf's sewing sweater in order for him to learn her? Of course not. will I be against scientists study the things that God made? of course not! God made all these tangible things, the more you learn the awesome of his creation, the more we feel awe about HIm.

 

One more time, I am not against science. only question their ASSUMPTIONS and theories based on the assumptions. Isn't that funny?

[annieo]

Lovelybird, Jesus spoke in parables. I'm talking New Testament here, obviously, the Old Testament was written by semitic peoples who lived before Christ, and dealt with everything that pre-dates Jesus (who was born and raised a Jew, but broke away because of the DOGMATIC approach of the Jewish leaders of that time).

Oh yeah, dogmatic, meaning an inflexible, judgemental interpretation of the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law. Reminds me of a lot of Christian leaders these days, not to mention a variety of other religions...

A parable is an analogous story that is meant to make an instructional, ethical point, not to be taken literally, but interpreted. It is the spirit of the stories that were his message, not the exact deciphering of the words. And the spirit of those parables was to be loving, forgiving and keep an open mind and heart.

You can still have a deep and personal relationship with your God, without having to see scripture as textbook perfect history, IMO.

[Rooster_DAR]

"The best way to learn about history and the age of the earth is to consult the history book of the universe—the Bible. Many scientists and theologians accept a straightforward reading of Scripture and agree that the earth is about 6,000 years old. It is better to use the infallible Word of God for our scientific assumptions... "

 

History book, you have to be kidding me. Are the prophets of the bible verifiable as critical thinkers? Did they do research on the subject? Or did some magical voice from withing give them the dialogue of scripture?

 

I would argue the bible is full of contradiction and impossible feats of physics, and is probably skewed in it's interpretation by many modern religions. I'm not going to sit here and try to convince that your wrong, it's just really astounding that you are not willing to accept what modern science is uncovering.

 

Why in the world would these people deliberately be lying? What do they have to gain? Well guess what? they are not trying to prove religion wrong, they are just uncovering incontravertible evidence that appears to conflict with the bible.

[Storyrider]

But Enema, that is their problem

 

"The best way to learn about history and the age of the earth is to consult the history book of the universe—the Bible. Many scientists and theologians accept a straightforward reading of Scripture and agree that the earth is about 6,000 years old. It is better to use the infallible Word of God for our scientific assumptions... "

 

The above quote is made by someone who refuses to accept science as a valid subject. The fact that the quotee may sincerely believe this does not really impinge on the world of science.

 

I would like to see where the Bible makes the claim that it is "the history book of the universe". the fact that someone else makes that claim does not make it so. My recollection of studying the Bible has no reference to the chapter that makes this claim.

 

I make no such claim for science.

St. Augustine said that the Bible was never intended to explain the mechanics of the universe, and to look to the Bible for those answers is a mistake. That is pretty convincing coming from one of the great church fathers and most famous believers of all times. I posted the direct quotes on another thread somewhere.

 

Aha:

 

One could ask which shape and form of heaven must be accepted by faith on the authority of Holy Scripture. Many dispute about these things which the sacred writers passed by in silence...in short, the Spirit of God which spoke through them did not wish to teach things which contribute nothing to salvation.

 

and

 

One does not read in the Gospel that the Lord said: I will send you to the Paraclete who will teach you about the course of the sun and moon. For He willed to make them Christians, not mathematicians.

Edited April 3, 2008 by Storyrider

[Storyrider]

Oh boy, Catholics are the last people anyone needs to listen to.

Dude, I'm arguing on the same side you are. I'm just saying, he was really into the Bible and even he did not believe it answered scientific questions.

[Rooster_DAR]

Dude, I'm arguing on the same side you are. I'm just saying, he was really into the Bible and even he did not believe it answered scientific questions.

 

Sorry, I misinterpreted your last post.

[Storyrider]

No problem.

[shadowofman]

Lovely, listen very carefully.

Evolutionists are not atheists. Millions and millions of evolutionists believe in god. Many of the most well educated biologists are theists and completely accept evolution as the unifying theory of biology. The same people you claim are fooling everyone or making assumptions about science, believe in the same creator you do! Belief in god is an opinion. Scientific theory is not. It's provable! And that is why millions and millions of theists accept scientific discovery. It does nothing to diminish their faith, nor could it yours.

[lovelorcet]

But Enema, that is their problem

 

 

No, this is also your problem. Do you have any idea how research is even done? The NIH for example is a major source of grant money, well guess what happens when you get some wacko born again christian as president... They end up cutting the money for programs they don't even understand... so that new stem cell therapy you are going to need when you have a heart attack some day is just going to have to wait.

 

 

I have seen the real implications of a president like this in my field and it is not pretty. But this all boils down to the same type of thinking by these believers. The OP claims god talks to her everyday... is that the same god that told bush to invade Iraq? Bush would be an "eye witness" to his own account of this and of course we are to believe everything he says

[Moai]

Disease isn't always a punishment for sin.

 

Yes, it is. That's basic doctrine.

 

I believe, that things happen for so many different reasons, that it is always going to be hard to box them up in a neat little package.

 

What are some of the reasons that led god to create Plasmodium?

 

I feel the way you do about children dying every day from preventable things.

 

I don't think you do. While we are both saddened at some level, I think that our perspective on disease diverges there.

 

But shouldn't we hold the people responsible who could put a stop to this tragedy(Drug companies who could easily end this, but they put profits ahead of lives, or the governments who put power above human life).

 

You missed the point of my response, it seems. I did not post what I did from the point of view of having questions, such as "why do bad things happen to good people?" or something. People get malaria because life feeds on life feeds on life. There are more parasites that infect humans besides Plasmodium, that's just the most deadly one.

 

I also note your comment about "drug companies". The reason drug companies make money is the fact that DRUGS WORK. Do you really think that people who work at Pfizer, say, would rather have their mother die of breast cancer and make millions than save her--and make BILLIONS? With drug companies being so greedy, why did they make enough vaccine to eliminate small pox? Most of the people who died from malaria lived before modern medicine, by the way. Drug companies are the only thing that allows people with the less lethal forms of malaria to lead a semi-normal life.

 

50% of all human disease is caused by impure drinking water. Is Brita evil because they aren't helping clean up all the water in Africa or something?

 

They are trying desperately to find a cure/vaccine for Plasmodium, but it is elusive BECAUSE PLASMODIUM EVOLVES. What that means is not only did god create a life form that causes humans to die excruciating deaths, he gave the same parasite the ability to evade all attempts to kill it.

 

I bring this up because the ID/Creationist position is "similar DNA means a common designer, not common descent." Since Plasmodium has DNA just like every other form of life on Earth, by that logic we must conclude that it was god who created it. There is no way that a being who would creat Plasmodium is omnibenevolent.

 

I also believe that things happen, to see how we as people handle them( we are screwing up big time)New Orleans, poverty in the US & world, letting criminals roam the streets, the destruction of our planet. There are no easy answers. As a Christian, I screw up so royally daily, but I keep trying to get it right.

 

We could do much better with real science education.

 

I wish sometimes that I knew all the answers, but that is where the faith comes in. Maybe these children are being saved from a life of constant war,famine or watching family members dying of AIDS and being left as orphans. I don't know.

 

That is so immoral on so many levels. God kills them with malaria so they won't get dengue fever? Or god kills them with malaria so they won't know they can't go to Disneyland? WTF?

 

I shot my wife this morning because I knew I'd be home late and I wanted to spare her waiting for me to get home.

 

Every thing you mentioned, famine, people dying of AIDS, etc god could take care of in one fell swoop, right? Why doesn't he, if he is so good and loving? Earlier you suggested holding people who work at drug companies responsible who could prevent these things but don't--why does god get a different standard?

[witabix]

Rooster_DAR Quote:

Originally Posted by witabix

"The best way to learn about history and the age of the earth is to consult the history book of the universe—the Bible. Many scientists and theologians accept a straightforward reading of Scripture and agree that the earth is about 6,000 years old. It is better to use the infallible Word of God for our scientific assumptions... "

 

History book, you have to be kidding me. Are the prophets of the bible verifiable as critical thinkers? Did they do research on the subject? Or did some magical voice from withing give them the dialogue of scripture?

 

I would argue the bible is full of contradiction and impossible feats of physics, and is probably skewed in it's interpretation by many modern religions. I'm not going to sit here and try to convince that your wrong, it's just really astounding that you are not willing to accept what modern science is uncovering.

 

Why in the world would these people deliberately be lying? What do they have to gain? Well guess what? they are not trying to prove religion wrong, they are just uncovering incontravertible evidence that appears to conflict with the bible.

 

lovelorcet Quote:

Originally Posted by witabix

But Enema, that is their problem

 

 

No, this is also your problem. Do you have any idea how research is even done? The NIH for example is a major source of grant money, well guess what happens when you get some wacko born again christian as president... They end up cutting the money for programs they don't even understand... so that new stem cell therapy you are going to need when you have a heart attack some day is just going to have to wait.

 

 

I have seen the real implications of a president like this in my field and it is not pretty. But this all boils down to the same type of thinking by these believers. The OP claims god talks to her everyday... is that the same god that told bush to invade Iraq? Bush would be an "eye witness" to his own account of this and of course we are to believe everything he says

 

People, I seem to have given you the wrong impression here, the quote about the Bible being historical was not meant to be a reflection of what I thought, and I definately do know how scientific research is done.

 

Oh and Enema, I've had two heart attacks already, so how about hurrying up with that stem cell research?

[shadowofman]

Well hopefully you are thinking about a few things differently. Hopefully you are questioning some preconceived notions. That is all Moai is doing anyway. Questioning the benevolence of the theoretical designer. Questioning it's morality.

 

What are some of the reasons that led god to create Plasmodium?

 

Mark Twain says it's because germs are god's true chosen people. "And the stupid humans are so arrogant as to think it's them."

 

I also note your comment about "drug companies". The reason drug companies make money is the fact that DRUGS WORK.

 

Well, they are trying to make drugs that work so they can sell them from profit. They are also intentionally conspiring with the food industry to keep us sick so that we need the drugs they are trying to make. All in all, drugs are doing a world of good, especially in the case of parasites. But the number one killers in America (heart disease, diabetics, cancer, etc.) are completely diet related.

[witabix]

Well hopefully you are thinking about a few things differently. Hopefully you are questioning some preconceived notions. That is all Moai is doing anyway. Questioning the benevolence of the theoretical designer. Questioning it's morality.

 

I reckon that is what the religious hope they are doing to us too.

 

 

 

Mark Twain says it's because germs are god's true chosen people. "And the stupid humans are so arrogant as to think it's them."

 

"Drink Maccabe the chosen beer for the the chosen people", I had a tee shirt with that on it once.

 

Well, they are trying to make drugs that work so they can sell them from profit. They are also intentionally conspiring with the food industry to keep us sick so that we need the drugs they are trying to make. All in all, drugs are doing a world of good, especially in the case of parasites. But the number one killers in America (heart disease, diabetics, cancer, etc.) are completely diet related.

 

My heart problems are not diet related, the Docs said I was just unlucky! That could be interpreted by some as god's retribution against me for my lack of faith I suppose.