Shoot.. came face to face with my young MM and his gf...

[Lizzie60]

One thing...my boss knows that I post on LS. He's fine with it...we've discussed some of the threads any my views on things several times as a matter of fact. There's no issue there. So I guess that kind of shoots that attempt at redirection in the foot.

 

And here's the thing...I'm not zooming in on Lizzie. She made a statement...that her sleeping with MM was a good thing for their marriages. She then drew the line that she'd never sleep with a friend's husband. And that creates an apparent conflict...because if it WERE good for the marriage, there'd be no reason for that boundary.

 

She won't sleep with her friend's husband because she doesn't want to hurt her friend. (And I completely believe this)

 

But that means that sleeping with her friend's husband WOULD be detrimental to her friend...which Lizzie thus far has refused to admit is a result of sleeping with married men.

 

If I'm mistaken in any of this...set me right. That's really all I've asked for here the whole time is for Lizzie to explain the reason for her boundary...if its not about how sleeping with her friend's husband would hurt her friend...then what is it?

 

Its a simple enough question...and its not "going after Lizzie".

 

Did you know that most therapists DO NOT counsel their family members or friends.. same for me..

[Lizzie60]

My train of thought is, Lizzie is happy with her life and choices. We don't have to live her life, she does...BUT - Godforbid something happens, her MM won't be there to help her through any rough times. People who have no committment or obligation will NOT stick around when the chips are down and only then maybe she'll realize that "fun times" with those MM are in the moment and not long lasting friendship.

 

I'm not worried.. honestly I'm not... plus some of these guys HAVE been there for me in the past.. I can rely on most of them to help me if help is needed.

 

They are also free to leave whenever they feel like it.. same for me.. I've ended all of the A I didn't want anymore.. it's never been the other way around..

 

We don't owe each other anything.. so we're all free .

[whichwayisup]

Yes.. that's exactly it. the happy mood might be based on a lie..but the end result is satisfatory for the whole family.. kids included... everyone is happier..

 

Yeah but it is ALL based on the cakeeaters BIG FAT LIE. Betrayal. Deep betrayal..

 

I'm not worried.. honestly I'm not... plus some of these guys HAVE been there for me in the past.. I can rely on most of them to help me if help is needed.

 

They are also free to leave whenever they feel like it.. same for me.. I've ended all of the A I didn't want anymore.. it's never been the other way around..

 

We don't owe each other anything.. so we're all free .

 

Godforbid you go through something like LB is going through, do you really believe any of your MM would "be there" for you? I honestly think you would be hurt, especially if your young stud abandoned you...Committment or not, there is a friendship and with that just comes a slight expectation - And with expectation, comes disappointment..

[whichwayisup]

If your friend's H cheated around on her, would you consider him a "good guy?"

 

But if it his cheating helped her friends marriage in the long run, then it would be okay.......

[Owl]

Did you know that most therapists DO NOT counsel their family members or friends.. same for me..

 

Yes, I did know this. And the reason that they don't is because typically they're going to be too close to the situation to provide impartial advice/counseling. They (because they're human) would end up taking sides, because they have a stake in how the situation plays out...because they know the players involved.

 

Given the nature of the....errmm...."counseling"......you provide, I'm not sure how that applies in this situation.

[Nevermind]

While I agree that Lizzie's logic is flawed, and she gives the impression of lying to herself, I don't see anything coming out of discussing this any further.

 

She is not going to change her ways, nor her views. Neither are we.

 

Just a thought.

[Owl]

While I agree that Lizzie's logic is flawed, and she gives the impression of lying to herself, I don't see anything coming out of discussing this any further.

 

I've come to the same conclusions.

 

She can't face the truth in this situation...she can't admit (even to herself) that what she's doing hurts others. If she did, she'd either have to take personal responsibility for continuing to hurt others, or she'd have to change her lifestyle...and neither option would be an enjoyable one.

 

There's no point in pressing this further.

[Pyro]

There's no point in pressing this further.

 

I agree. This thread has got to end.

 

The same questions are being avoided by her and she is going to continue to avoid them.

 

She has a reputation on here of having such a "perfect lifestyle" and her answering those questions truthfully will put a damper on that lifestyle.

 

No matter what you ask her, she will continue with the excuses to justify her lifestyle.

[Lizzie60]

Yeah but it is ALL based on the cakeeaters BIG FAT LIE. Betrayal. Deep betrayal..

 

 

 

Godforbid you go through something like LB is going through, do you really believe any of your MM would "be there" for you? I honestly think you would be hurt, especially if your young stud abandoned you...Committment or not, there is a friendship and with that just comes a slight expectation - And with expectation, comes disappointment..

 

 

And to be truly honest with you.. I wouldn't want any of them around me if that was the case.. I would want my close friends and my children.. no one else.

[Lizzie60]

If your friend's H cheated around on her, would you consider him a "good guy?"

 

I know one thing for sure.. I would NOT judge him...

 

There are always two sides..

[Lizzie60]

Yes, I did know this. And the reason that they don't is because typically they're going to be too close to the situation to provide impartial advice/counseling. They (because they're human) would end up taking sides, because they have a stake in how the situation plays out...because they know the players involved.

 

Given the nature of the....errmm...."counseling"......you provide, I'm not sure how that applies in this situation.

 

Well sometimes I provide 'sex therapy'..

[Lizzie60]

While I agree that Lizzie's logic is flawed, and she gives the impression of lying to herself, I don't see anything coming out of discussing this any further.

 

She is not going to change her ways, nor her views. Neither are we.

 

Just a thought.

 

You nailed it.. I AM NOT going to change my views.. as I think you are wrong.. and I am right..

 

To each our own..

[Lizzie60]

I've come to the same conclusions.

 

She can't face the truth in this situation...she can't admit (even to herself) that what she's doing hurts others. If she did, she'd either have to take personal responsibility for continuing to hurt others, or she'd have to change her lifestyle...and neither option would be an enjoyable one.

 

There's no point in pressing this further.

 

See I am honestly convinced (no BS) that I am NOT hurting anyone..

[Lizzie60]

I agree. This thread has got to end.

 

The same questions are being avoided by her and she is going to continue to avoid them.

 

She has a reputation on here of having such a "perfect lifestyle" and her answering those questions truthfully will put a damper on that lifestyle.

 

No matter what you ask her, she will continue with the excuses to justify her lifestyle.

 

I fight for my convictions..

[Lizzie60]

Then what do you believe in? You don't believe in marriage, karma.. Do you believe in religion? I would assume not. Just seems like you are justifying your behavior.

 

No I don't.. and religion is baloney... should be kept behind closed doors. there would be a lot less violence in this world.

 

These guys might be professionals and smart, however they lack morals, they are very selfish people who care about themselves. They put them, their wives and their children at risk. For every moment (even emotionally) they spend on you, that's one less moment that is spent on their children, and wives.

 

They spend time with me when, most of the time, it's work hours.. or when the spouse has left.. they wouldn't be with them anyway.

 

If they can do this to their families, what else are they doing? And when it does finally come crashing down, when a wife finds out and goes psycho on you, who's side do you think the husband is going to take? Not yours..

 

I hope so.. I don't want them..

 

They backstab you because you are worth no value to them when it really comes down to it. I just don't get what you really get out of this. Wouldn't it be easier to use your toys then to go through such drama just to get laid?

 

No one has backstab me yet.. I hate toys..

 

The words they tell you are meaningless. I can pull your heartstrings if I so desired. I have done it before, during my single days. How do you think I got with the married chick? You think you have control over this situation, and honestly you don't. I keep telling you one day you will get burned, playing with this fire.

 

I disagree.. I have ALL the control... they don't. I am not emotionally involved with ANY of them. As I say before.. they can leave anytime.. I won't even call them back..

 

I should add... that most of them are still in touch with me.. through emails.. on a weekly basis.. but it's over.. and they know it.. but they keep trying from time to time.. we exchange jokes.. pictures, etc. I stayed friends with all of them..

 

And, last Thursday.. the very first MM (the young one who got me started on all this) came back after over 2 years.. He tried very hard to have sex with me.. I was sooo freaken pissed off.. told him to never call or come over again.. or I would call his wife... and I mean it this time..

 

I am OK with them... I won't cause any problems.. but they have to be OK with me.. once it's over it's over.. they have to understand that..

 

In all reality you have at most 30 years left in your life. Spend it wisely. Don't spend it on men that won't remember you in a few years.

 

That's what I'm intending to do.. don't worry for me.. I'll be OK..

[Lizzie60]

You have no convictions. That's why all the avoidance tactics. You state one viewpoint when it comes to the guys who pay you for sex, but then that same viewpoint gets skewed when it comes to those who don't. Whatever though. I've seen plenty of people who can't decide to hop off the fence in other circumstances.

 

It could be hard to follow.. ...

[Pyro]

You have no convictions. That's why all the avoidance tactics. You state one viewpoint when it comes to the guys who pay you for sex, but then that same viewpoint gets skewed when it comes to those who don't. Whatever though. I've seen plenty of people who can't decide to hop off the fence in other circumstances.

 

Just save your breath and energy SOC. Her true colors have shown and thats all that matters.

[Owl]

See I am honestly convinced (no BS) that I am NOT hurting anyone..

 

I believe you.

 

Many, many years ago I led an "interesting childhood". I left home as a teenager and was on the streets for over six months. During that time, I hitch-hiked all across the US, and down into Mexico as well. I was a lightweight, quiet kid...so you can imagine the things that I ran into during that time.

 

I spent a part of that time travelling with a "semi-professional" young lady. She made her money much the same way that you earn your "gifts", only with (obviously) a much more un..."pre-selected" clientele.

 

I learned a lot about the mindset of women who make a living like that. She went through some of the most amazing mental gymnastics that I have seen to date. In order to avoid a mental break-down, she invented all kinds of 'reasons' to support what she did. All kinds of ideas on why it was a good thing, why it didn't hurt her or anyone else. In her case (she was young), it varied day by day...

 

You've accepted your lifestyle. Part of the process for that mental acceptance was going through that same set of mental gymnastics to find your "reason"...to avoid that same mental breakdown caused by a tremendous disconnect between what you (at first) viewed as right, and what you were doing.

 

You HAVE TO believe that what you're doing is harmless...even helpful. Its how you can mentally justify what the vast majority of people consider immoral and harmful. Even when confronted by holes in your own life, you avoid working through the reasons behind them, and accept them as they are.

 

There isn't a thing that anyone here could say or do to force you to see otherwise. Your world is built around how you need to see it to avoid that break.

 

I'm not judging you here...its simply a result of a process. Its also why I don't see any value in pushing it further with you. I do think that we'll never agree on the "good" you do, and will probably remain on opposite sides of this coin...but I wish you the best regardless.

[Lizzie60]

I believe you.

 

Many, many years ago I led an "interesting childhood". I left home as a teenager and was on the streets for over six months. During that time, I hitch-hiked all across the US, and down into Mexico as well. I was a lightweight, quiet kid...so you can imagine the things that I ran into during that time.

 

I spent a part of that time travelling with a "semi-professional" young lady. She made her money much the same way that you earn your "gifts", only with (obviously) a much more un..."pre-selected" clientele.

 

I learned a lot about the mindset of women who make a living like that. She went through some of the most amazing mental gymnastics that I have seen to date. In order to avoid a mental break-down, she invented all kinds of 'reasons' to support what she did. All kinds of ideas on why it was a good thing, why it didn't hurt her or anyone else. In her case (she was young), it varied day by day...

 

You've accepted your lifestyle. Part of the process for that mental acceptance was going through that same set of mental gymnastics to find your "reason"...to avoid that same mental breakdown caused by a tremendous disconnect between what you (at first) viewed as right, and what you were doing.

 

You HAVE TO believe that what you're doing is harmless...even helpful. Its how you can mentally justify what the vast majority of people consider immoral and harmful. Even when confronted by holes in your own life, you avoid working through the reasons behind them, and accept them as they are.

 

There isn't a thing that anyone here could say or do to force you to see otherwise. Your world is built around how you need to see it to avoid that break.

 

I'm not judging you here...its simply a result of a process. Its also why I don't see any value in pushing it further with you. I do think that we'll never agree on the "good" you do, and will probably remain on opposite sides of this coin...but I wish you the best regardless.

 

I agree with you with a lot here.. but you see, in my case, I am not a young girl who has nothing in life.. I already HAVE LIVED a lot of what SHE hadn't.

 

I, too, unlike her, choose my lovers.. that's a huge difference.. I don't do it to 'survive' or to pay for addictions.. I have a very well paid job for the gov't and no addictions.

 

And I should add, that, unlike her, I am not trying to make any mental gymnastic.. cause I know I'm not in danger of a mental break-down..

 

What I'm trying to say here.. is that you cannot compare me with a young chick you met years ago.. who had nothing in life..

 

I've been there, done that, as far as relationships go... I have children, friends, a great job, 2 houses, a car... I travel as much as I want, and as much as my job will allow me...

 

I don't see any more harm in my situation than any other kind of situation.. (ex. OW who really want the H to leave the M, or cheating on your best friend's, etc..etc.) I am single.. therefore FREE.

 

Your world is built around how you need to see it to avoid that break.

 

And this is soooo not true.. I see no big deal with screwing Peter, Paul, or Brian.. they don't really have to tell me about their status.. I don't care either way..

 

I know it's hard for people in relationships to understand that.. maybe some do.. I don't know...

 

But trust me when I say I really am happy ... happier than I've ever been.. even when I was in relationships.. I wouldn't change anything in the world.. for now..

 

Maybe it will change one day.. who knows!

[Owl]

Again, there's nothing to convince me of, Lizzie. I believe that you're happy, carefree, and completely satisfied in your life. And that there's nothing anyone can say about your lifestyle that will force a change in that. There is absolutely nothing anyone could possibly do to get you to see the other side of the fence...to see what the cost of your lifestyle is to the wives of the men you sleep with.

 

And that, m'lady...is the bottom line.

[Lizzie60]

Bon .. finalement!...

 

Merci Owl!

[Owl]

Tre bien, madame!

[herenow]

So, I have to ask again, like I did on another one of Lizzie's threads. If Lizzie is so busy with her legitimate job and her therapy and her children and friends, how is it that she finds so much time to spend posting on LS? Not that posting on LS bad thing, I just wonder how she gets it all done.

[Lizzie60]

Tre bien, madame!

 

It's 'très bien madame'...

[Lizzie60]

So, I have to ask again, like I did on another one of Lizzie's threads. If Lizzie is so busy with her legitimate job and her therapy and her children and friends, how is it that she finds so much time to spend posting on LS? Not that posting on LS bad thing, I just wonder how she gets it all done.

 

I post from work.. I live alone... and I don't have someone in my house or bed 24/7..

 

I see my children occasionally.. I speak with my daughter every day (from work).. I try to see them every second week.. my friends are also occasional dates.

 

I don't think I spend any more time than any 'good faithful' spouses..